Dysgraphia question

[PeterPan]

Ok, it's time for me to be honest about this, and hopefully I'm thinking through this clearly enough even to be asking the right question.  If I'm not, then tell me what the right question is, lol.  And remember, I'm stupid literal.  So like when somebody says "You don't need to do x" I'm REALLY NOT gonna do x.  So I'm trying to be really precise here, because I'm not sure I'm understanding and don't want to assume something or go like ALL THE WAY one direction and have somebody say WOW you couldn't temper that with a little common sense?!?!  Nope, no common sense here, so only say exactly what you mean.

 

Ds7 has diagnosed SLD writing.  We've been working on handwriting for years.  Not like super hard cruelly, but consistently, politely, developmentally appropriately (in salt trays, with sandpaper letters, in the air, on backs, with motor planning phrases, with magnatabs, with whole body, shall we go on.)  He's 7 and still is struggling with letter formation.  His fine motor is considered adequate by the OT.  It's totally the disability we're seeing.  So, for instance, when we sit down to write a word, I am prompting him for formation on every letter.  I'm prompting him on spacing.  IF he exercises great care, he can fill an age-appropriate page (1" lines, so about 5 lines on one landscape layout page) and it will be legible.  That will take him 40 minutes.  And it WILL be legible.  But it's 40 minutes of extreme care with complete prompting.  (stop on the line, c curve, no rainbow curve, finger space between the words, how do I make a capital I, blah blah)

 

*I* feel good about this, because to me it's like wow, we're making effort, eventually that motor planning will solidify and he'll have legible handwriting!  And then I look at it and go WHOA you just spent 40 minutes writing some strokes, a mystery number (like a telephone number or the date), 3 CVC words, and his name!   :svengo:  And y'all know how I'm prone to hyperbole, but this is not hyperbole.  

 

I know he's going to use technology over the long-run.  We own it, he'll use it, I'm cool with it.  That's not my question.

 

My question is, how do I handle this writing by hand stuff?  I want him to be able to write his name.  He *says* he wants to learn cursive, which we haven't tried.  My concern is that I am not going to be able to just hold him to this insane stupid pace FOREVER.  It's just not reality.  Right now his dyslexia, etc. makes that seem normal, but it's not going to stay that way.  We can't even do the writing for spelling in Barton, mercy.  I don't even have a clue how I can do spelling with him.  That's not even where he's at right now, where we're at.  We're at can you understand the pronouns and prepositions in this sentence, kwim?  Spelling is like so the LAST thing on our minds.

 

So IF I were to just go you know, handwriting effort is the DUMBEST WASTE OF TIME EVER for a kid with SLD writing, then I could just make the volume of output more important, let him speed up, let him do as he will (which will be versions of attrocious, and go oh whatever.  And, truth be told, there's some pretty illegible handwriting in his genetic heritage.  OR I can just keep working on it, going you know there's some value to the attention, maybe it will, with dribbles and enough time, actually make a difference, but not really try to turn that into oh let's go write TONS.  More like just keep up the effort, keep it at that page a day, but just do typing and dictation for everything else.  OR I could do some more draconian thing, like having him write MORE in the theory that writing MORE would be more better, kwim?

 

I feel like I have only these extreme (b&w, all/nothing) viewpoints in my mind, like either he writes nothing or he writes everything, either he writes perfectly or not at all, lol.  I'm partly trying to figure out if having legible, though minimal, handwriting is even worthwhile or whether it's better to have MORE writing that is less legible?

 

Are there more questions I'm not yet asking?  And you know some of it is because he got diagnosed early.  If we were getting this diagnosis at 10 or 12, a lot of that would already be set.  But by getting the diagnosis at 6, you're looking at this thinking ok, I know this is happening, what can I DO about it, how do I handle it, what can be maybe handled in a way that sort of ameliorates it and what is just kind of denying the reality of where this is going and wasting time on things that couldn't work, kwim?  And yet, I don't want NOT to do something that he COULD have gotten with modest, consistent effort.  Because, like I said, if he can have enough time right now, his writing is actually legible.  It's just not independent and not functional (fast).

 

Any thoughts?   :)

 

Ok, coming back to add here.  Have I LOST MY PERSPECTIVE on what is age-appropriate, because of his disabilities and social immaturity, to the point where I'm not using technology now to enable him to do things that he would do (because of his IQ) that he's not doing because he can't physical do them due to the writing disability and reading disability?  Wow, I hadn't even thought about that, that I might have totally missed that boat.  He's just so weird to work with, so contradictory.  You don't know if you're working with a 7th grader or a K4er or what.  He's just so all over the place, one minute telling me about how he would engineer cars and the next minute licking or hitting.  So I tend to go wow, can't get to xyz (thing that would appeal to IQ), because you're so busy dealing with this lower stuff.  But to actually attempt to DO anything that would be age-typical in a mainstream class, he would need immediate heavy use of technology or get snowed right away.  So does that mean that's what I SHOULD be doing??

 

Edited November 20, 2015 by OhElizabeth

[Heathermomster]

IDK...With DD, she never wrote what you are describing until she had automaticity, and we never spent more that 10-15 minutes.  Without automaticity, she was copying names of her favorite Star Wars or Little Pony characters.  She required OT/PT for issues and took about a month to correctly form a lowercase a.  Real automaticity did not come until about 7 months ago.  

 

I recommend you reduce the handwriting practice to a time frame more tenable and move on, or you could keep going, grab a chop stick, and shove it in your eye.  

 

DD was always excited to write her name in cursive so I taught her.  I was always told that cursive was easier, but I did not find that to be the case with DS.  You could harness your son's desire to write cursive by teaching him to write his name just to see how things went.  He may benefit but you won't know until you try.  

Edited November 20, 2015 by Heathermomster

[Lecka]

First, here is a link to a resource guide.  http://www.handwriting-solutions.com/dysgraphia.asp I have not bought it or read it, but just the website has some good information.

 

Second, you are looking for ONE answer.  

 

There is not one answer.  It is not an either/or.

 

You will have different goals for different situations.  If you are not working on handwriting, you will care about output amount and not legibility.  You will be happy to scribe.  You will be happy to accept and facilitate other forms of output.

 

Does that mean you quit handwriting practice?  

 

No.  

 

Does that mean you may pick an amount of time, and work to "time" instead of to "standard"?  

 

Yes.

 

Does that mean you may work on handwriting for either an appropriate amount of time given the other priorities that exist?  

 

Yes.

 

It is not really something where you QUIT handwriting practice because you are going FULL ON technology.  

 

But it is something where you start introducing the accommodations (which are more than just typing, actually) and you can continue to practice handwriting.

 

Your goals in handwriting may be just to copy something or write his name, on a certain day.  

 

And no offense ----- but I think if you are thinking of having him hand write with spelling, keep in mind how many kids are using letter tiles for spelling, like with All About Spelling.  From the website it comes across like a majority of kids will do very well to practice with letter tiles, while a few will prefer handwriting.  

 

In any area where you are thinking handwriting is going to lead to a hang-up (if this is your hang-up about spelling and not just other things ------ which, for my 10-year-old, spelling was not even on my agenda at all when he was barely 7, so I think that is very fine)....... then that is a sign to re-think how you are teaching that or how you are looking for output.  

 

Here is another thought:  there are times when my son completes work, and it is illegible.  Does that mean it counts for nothing?  No, it really doesn't.  He still had the thought processes, he still formed the answers in his head.  Isn't that where the learning process is occurring?  Now, from inside his head onto the paper, that did not happen.  But ----- he still sat and thought his thoughts.  I think that is still valuable b/c of the "sitting and thinking" part.  Then that contributes to my son being able to give the oral answer.  If you asked him the oral answer, he might (or might not) sit and think with the same depth that he might sit and think to respond to a written question instead of to a person.  So, I think there can be value to the illegible writing, in that way.  When he is writing that way, too, he is not having the *fatigue.*  If he writes really good for two answers, he gets to a frustration level.  NOW ---- in this whole example, the thing is, of course typing would be better here.  But, if you are in a situation where the child is not typing yet, I think that this is okay.

 

Now, will your son just pick up typing easily?  My son didn't.  This is a factor, too.  My son struggled with typing such that it was not preferable to illegible handwriting, until recently.  Now he types good, and it is a great option for writing.  Now, we have an issue which is that he is doing long division in math, and this is a high demand.  Well -- we had his IEP meeting, and the principal gave him "homework help" 3 days a week after school.  He has got someone now, 3 days a week after school, to either sit with him while he does his long division and help him if he starts to go crooked or starts to just have trouble ----- if somebody just re-writes a part for him, then he can go from there (if that makes sense).  He also can have scribing of long division.  Now -- he can type well enough to be able to other things -- but from what I am hearing there is not a typing-type option for long division that they think will help him learn to do long division and have the practice he needs of doing long division (he is not a gifted type of kid who just needs to do one or two problems a day, he does need to practice).  

 

So anyway:  here is what I think is a decent to-do list: One, expect to practice handwriting as part of your schedule, at least 15 minutes, maybe not all at once and maybe not a lot more than that.  Adding cursive is honestly not a bad idea ---- I have heard that many, many kids have an easier time with cursive for various reasons!  Two, consider adding 15 minutes of a typing program.  Read, Write, and Type (iirc) is mentioned in the Shaywitz, it is for his age level, and iirc it has gotten good reviews here.  Three, expect to be modifying other subjects to allow for scribing and oral answers and things like that.

 

But here is the thing, from my experience.  As much as I can be dedicated to "oh yeah, typing is awesome," that doesn't mean that tomorrow I wake up and my son has functional typing skills equivalent to the functional handwriting skills he would need to complete his work at a level reflective of his understanding and ability.  That is a pipe dream.  There is a huge "getting from Point A to Point B" there.  That doesn't mean that Point B doesn't exist ---- it totally exists.  It does mean, you can't decide, today, that you accept that typing is in his future, and then boom, he is typing functionally at the level he needs to complete his work in a way that reflects his ability and understanding.  Typing is a process, too.  In the meantime ----- you have got the same kinds of accommodations to make, while you wait for the other things to fall into place.

 

So, that is my opinion.  

 

 

[Lecka]

/crosspost 

 

Yeah, cursive was not "the answer" here.  But I totally agree it is worth a try.  For a lot of kids, it is very beneficial.  I have heard really good things about it.

 

In addition, for my son who is 10 ----- he can't read cursive.  He can copy cursive, but he can't write it without copying.  (He improved a huge amount in his ability to copy, in OT when he was in 2nd-3rd grade, and that is Really Good and Valuable, but it does not transfer to his other handwriting they way one might think).  

 

At the IEP meeting, I was told that they see it as a real need for kids to be able to read cursive, and they want him to be able to read cursive.  They also want him to be able to sign his name in cursive.  So, he is working on cursive some again.  Does it look like, or have the same goals as, traditional cursive practice?  No. B/c, he is at an age and level (and did try cursive when he was younger!) where it is not realistic for him.  But they are telling me it is both realistic and a needed skill for him to be able to read cursive.  Now ----- they HOPE that in the course of this practice, he will show improvement, and it will seem realistic for him to keep moving forward.  But that is a hope, that is not an "of course he can do that, it is not like he has dysgraphia or something."  But there is still hope for improvement!  I also hear about kids even older than my son still having improvement, or having a burst of improvement!   There is hope!  

 

But the possibility that he will have better handwriting in a couple of years, does not do anything to get him through 5th grade, if you know what I mean.  It is just like -----  you don't have to completely shut that door.  Keep the door open!  But you can keep the door open, where it is like "we are not shutting the door," but have it be on a "we are going to keep practicing" level instead of a "I can't believe you still have these difficulties, aren't they supposed to be going away" level.  Or a "look at all this practicing we are doing, why on earth isn't there more improvement" level.  Iow ---- I agree totally ----- you are welcome to poke a chopstick in your eye, but there is no purpose to it.    

[geodob]

OhE,

Schooling is about preparing a child to become an adult.

In 10 years time, when he is 17.

Will anyone his age, even carry a pen with them?

All of the time spent on learning to hand-write, will be a redundant skill.

Where even writing our signature, will be replaced by something like iris recognition.

 

When you wrote: ' Have I LOST MY PERSPECTIVE on what is age-appropriate ... .'

Are you talking about his 'current age'?

Or the 'age in which he is growing up'?

If you look at in terms of the age in which he is growing up?

Being able to draw words by hand, will soon become a novelty?

 

On the other hand, if the focus shifted to him helping him to develop 'digital communications skills'?

He will be prepared for the world that he lives in, as an adult.

[OneStepAtATime]

What they said.   :)

 

1.  Keep practicing writing, but by time.  Keep it short.  Small amount each day.

2.  Keep handwriting and independent thought output separate. (scribe for the latter)

3.  Use his interest in cursive to learn how to write his name in cursive, but in small increments, short segments.

4.  Typing will take time to master in a way that means more fluid output.  Even if you start now, he may take years to get there so be patient.  Honestly, this WILL be an important skill.  Nearly everything requires keyboarding at some point.  

 ETA:  Just don't expect this to be the method he can use efficiently any time soon.  He is only 7.  DS and DD were in computer class learning typing at school for years and yet they didn't get truly fluid with typing until DD was about 14 and DS was 10.  They still type fairly slowly.  They do type accurately.  It just took a loooong time to get there.

5.  As mentioned above, there is no either/or.  Just don't make handwriting the be all and end all of his academics.

 

FWIW, my nephew, who is gifted, has abysmal handwriting.  Like, completely illegible.  His mom had him in OT and he worked to improve in school but it never helped.   He was NOT an easy child to work with and nearly got kicked out of school because he developed a terrible attitude.  Honestly, he was so frustrated.  He was running circles around the other kids intellectually, the work wasn't challenging enough, but he couldn't keep up with the writing output.  He was miserable.  My BIL finally pulled him out and started having him take classes at the local CC when he was in 11th grade.  The professors didn't care about his handwriting as long as he could type.  He could.  He loved being at the CC.  He thrived.  He later moved to the local University for his freshman/sophomore years and is now transferring to University of Texas in Austin for his Junior year.  His GPA is a 4.0.  Is his handwriting still completely illegible?  Yes.  But he is a much happier person now that he is in a world where his handwriting is not holding him back or making him feel like a failure.

Edited November 20, 2015 by OneStepAtATime

[Lecka]

Separately, you have jumped to "heavy use of technology" as your assumption for what his support/accomodation (whatever) would be in a school setting.

 

Well, think again for a young child.

 

If he can functionally, independently use technology, then yes, that might be what they have as his support/accomodation.  But you are talking about a just-turned-7.  That is honestly ----- sure, some kids are ready.  Other kids are not ready.  

 

There is still oral answers, different forms of assighments, and scribing.  There is still creativity in how to show learning and engage with material.  

 

It is not all "insert tab A into slot B."  

 

For my 5th grader ----- it was discussed in the IEP meeting, how much he could type and how independently.  They said -- pretty good for a 5th grader!  But they didn't say "oh, he can just type and use technology functionally and independently now."  No.  It is still a learning and developing process for him to gain THOSE skills.  

 

I think the are *hoping* he can go to 7th grade with a good amount of functional and independent use, but *recognizing* that he is going to make the progress he makes.  

 

But here, middle school starts in 7th grade, and they expressed that they are very optimistic that he can have supported use and be ready to transition to a much more independent use as he starts middle school. 

 

SO ------ when you and I read things about high school kids who are using technology and they just DO IT, that does not funnel down to an elementary school child just doing it.  

 

Though, it may, too.  

 

I do agree, there are technology options for young kids, and they are good and would be used.  But, that is not the same as focusing too much on what the end result in high school will look like, and not seeing that that is a Point B that may not be reached for quite a few years, and in the meantime, learning needs to be occurring.  

 

So ---- I am just feeling like, your view of him as, if he were in school, either getting no accommodations, or alternately, getting only technology-based accmmodations like we read about for high school students, is not really what I think it would look like.  I think you should think about more broad kinds of accommodations.  

 

And, the number one accommodaiton is to just not be hung on handwriting.  Like, that needs to be the first thing.  Then all the actual accommodations should be secondary to the idea of not getting hung up on handwriting.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Agreeing with Lecka...well, and the others, too.  And  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[TxMama]

I have a 13 yo significant dysgraphic, and a 10 yo mild/mod dysgraphic.

 

 

For us, Writing 8 exercises did help with letter formation. It did not help with much else, but not having to tell them how to form each particular letter was worth the time we put into this. I've noticed that the 10 yo is making a few wonky letters so we might spend another 6 months on this in the Spring.

 

After working on Writing 8 for about 6 months, I focused on making sure they could write their name/address/etc. legibly. Then we stopped worrying about

handwriting. I was told during our testing that we could spend a great amount of effort on handwriting or a little time focused on it, but the end result

would likely be about the same. This was 3 years ago.

 

The 10 yo can take notes ( barely legibly) and type reasonably well. She will be able to use these tools. The 13 yo cannot do either of those tasks and has completely embraced technology to assist with writing tasks. I do have him work on typing daily, but typing will not likely be his mode of communication.

 

This year we will work through 1 last handwriting book. I do not expect this to improve their handwriting or to have them learn to use cursive, but they both wanted to learn to read cursive.

 

I will say that the dysgraphia piece of their individual learning profile has proven to be the most frustrating. Even though I've been homeschooling a really long time, knowing that I do not have a "back-up" plan (PS or any private school that I could afford) is unnerving.

[Julie of KY]

Agreeing with the above.

 

Take it one day at a time. Keep working on handwriting. Separate handwriting skills from other subjects--can he spell with tiles? dictate? teach typing, etc. Those are not necessarily easy answers since typing and language don't necessarily come easily to kids with language learning disabilities.

 

Over the years, I've learned that you certainly can't predict what these kids will do and how they'll change. You just have to go with the flow. My oldest who is severely dysgraphic (still didn't know all his letters in middle school) was still dictating into high school and had not learned to type, despite lots of trying to learn. Something clicked this past year and now he's typing and taking notes in class. Who knew? I thought he'd need a scribe through college. On the other hand, teaching letter formation to my daughter was never hard, but her writing difficulties are harder for me to deal with this year as the work has picked up.

 

 

[Lecka]

I am going to add, that wrt cursive, it was mentioned to me that reality is:  if he is going to borrow notes in high school, in my town, chances are he will be borrowing notes written in cursive.  Not everybody is taking notes on a laptop.  If he gets to look at a teacher's lecture notes, reality is that these may be written in cursive.  Not every teacher is writing up power point presentations.  

 

So, they were kind-of like "no, he REALLY needs to be able to read cursive." 

 

Maybe in other areas there are always going to be options of typed notes, but I am basically being told, that that is not the situation for middle school or high school in my town, so that is reality here.  

 

And, maybe he won't need those accommodations b/c he will be able to type his own notes, but maybe he will, and if he does, it will be a lot easier on him if he can read cursive.  

 

Edit:  It is not going to be some simple little thing for him to learn to read cursive, but it is a very appropriate goal.  

Edited November 20, 2015 by Lecka

[OneStepAtATime]

I have a 13 yo significant dysgraphic, and a 10 yo mild/mod dysgraphic.

 

 

For us, Writing 8 exercises did help with letter formation. It did not help with much else, but not having to tell them how to form each particular letter was worth the time we put into this. I've noticed that the 10 yo is making a few wonky letters so we might spend another 6 months on this in the Spring.

 

After working on Writing 8 for about 6 months, I focused on making sure they could write their name/address/etc. legibly. Then we stopped worrying about

handwriting. I was told during our testing that we could spend a great amount of effort on handwriting or a little time focused on it, but the end result

would likely be about the same. This was 3 years ago.

 

The 10 yo can take notes ( barely legibly) and type reasonably well. She will be able to use these tools. The 13 yo cannot do either of those tasks and has completely embraced technology to assist with writing tasks. I do have him work on typing daily, but typing will not likely be his mode of communication.

 

This year we will work through 1 last handwriting book. I do not expect this to improve their handwriting or to have them learn to use cursive, but they both wanted to learn to read cursive.

 

I will say that the dysgraphia piece of their individual learning profile has proven to be the most frustrating. Even though I've been homeschooling a really long time, knowing that I do not have a "back-up" plan (PS or any private school that I could afford) is unnerving.

Here, too.  Dysgraphia was the thing that really undermined DS in school.  And is the biggest issue he still has.  The dyslexia is a minor side issue compared to the dysgraphia.  He was ridiculed and teased by his 2nd grade teacher for the dysgraphia issues (she assumed he just had a bad attitude).  He now associates any handwriting with negative emotions even 3 years out.  He will write, but he loathes it.  He never used to have a bad attitude before 2nd grade.  He had teachers that were patient and didn't mind how incredibly slow his handwriting was or how hard he had to work to form legible letters.    He was absolutely willing to put in effort to write.  Now, he is honestly defiant, even though we started shifting to a LOT of scribing and only short practice on handwriting itself.

 

DD, who struggled a LOT in school, is doing really well as a homeschooler even though her dyslexia is worse than his.  Why?  She can write independently.  She can put thoughts to paper.  At grade level?  No.  But certainly at a 5th grade level or maybe higher.  It gives her independence that DS doesn't have.  And with using Barton at home and some specialized help this summer she has been dramatically improving in her reading and spelling.  The dyslexia is being re-mediated quite successfully for both kids, actually, but because DD can get thoughts onto paper without need of me sitting right next to her for everything, she is moving ahead in ways that DS just hasn't been able to yet.  It is the dysgraphia for DS that is still the bigger issue.

 

ETA: OhE, just don't let the handwriting be a hill to die on.  Don't let his struggles in this area cause him to hate any sort of writing output, regardless of method.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Edited November 20, 2015 by OneStepAtATime

[prairiewindmomma]

9 yo dysgraphic here, NO automaticity of handwriting in cursive despite two years of instruction. He has a chicken scratch form of block print that developed after we started cursive because he wanted to write nasty notes to his sisters and he wanted to leave notes to his brother on what to build next in Minecraft. He rarely writes more than a few words on his own unprompted.

 

I made him fill out his library card application. It took an hour. By the time he is a teen, he will be filling out his own doctor office appointment intake sheets. That said, we are relying on technology for the rest. Functional. I need this kid to do functional writing.

[prairiewindmomma]

How does he do with a visual reference with what letters look like? The HWT stickers are posted on his desk because it bumps his speed a lot. He literally cannot describe or remember what letters look like, but he can point out letters in text and reads at a 9th grade level. Freaky inconsistencies.

[wapiti]

So many good thoughts above - I'll need to go back and read through them more slowly.

 

I would give cursive a try - IIRC, many OTs recommend cursive due to not having to lift up the pencil for each letter.

 

On the technology angle, off the top of my head I can think of at least 5 public and private middle schools that allow/require a personal computer or tablet for every student, including our regular neighborhood public.

Edited November 24, 2015 by wapiti

[Heathermomster]

Maybe Mon2Ns will pop over to this thread.  I'm thinking her ASD kiddo started using an Alphasmart word processor in 2nd grade. I remember that because I wish DS had used one at that age.

 

From the beginning, I was told to feed the intellect using technology to bypass the reading and handwriting.  We did not accommodate the handwriting and that is one of my deepest regrets.  My eldest sibling was blind.  Never once did a teacher hand her print material and insist that she practice reading.

 

With dysgraphia, severity will greatly affect outcomes.  Yes, we should work on automaticity and try to ensure our kiddos can read cursive.  I have met teenagers who cannot read it.  Otherwise, we have to do what works and if your DS uses a keyboard, so be it.  I feel like the deck is stacked against these kids in so many areas of their lives.  Handwriting is just not one of those things that seriously bothers me anymore.   

 

 

Edited November 20, 2015 by Heathermomster

[MistyMountain]

I agree with Lecka. My ds has time that is focused on letter formation and time where he just writes and gets things done even if it is sloppy and not formed correctly. Spending so long on handwriting can become counterproductive. There is research that writing helps create things in the brain. In a child so young there is still time to learn formation and practice writing but sometimes it may make more sense to use other methods like scribing. Once they get older then technology can be learned and relied on more.

Edited November 20, 2015 by MistyMountain

[Storygirl]

DS11 was diagnosed with dysgraphia in third grade by the NP. Now in fifth grade, his school does not seem to care. When I brought it up in the IEP planning meeting, they said, "Oh, I've seen much worse handwriting in my classes," and "At his age, his handwriting is probably set and won't improve." They really don't care.

 

In his case, I think the dysgraphia is on the milder side. His letters are not automatic yet, and he really kind of draws them. His handwriting changes from blocky letters to letters with little dots added to them, to swirly decorative letters, depending on how he feels. That is when he is thinking about letter formation. When he is not, it's just sloppy.

 

He does have a disconnect between what he can think and what he can get onto the paper, which is the bigger piece. But now his writing is close enough to age appropriate that the school is unconcerned with that, as well.

 

I'm not sure how that helps you, except to point out that by late elementary our school only cares if it is mostly legible. As long as you can get your son to that point, it's probably good enough. I don't think I would give up on having your son write neatly, but maybe only do it for ten minutes a day. And then spend another ten minutes just writing something, whether it is neat or not, to practice getting thoughts onto the page.

[Black-eyed Suzan]

:grouphug: 

 

I don't have any real advice, but I like the approach several posters mentioned of keeping the end in mind. What do adults need to write by hand? Forms (name, address, etc.) and signature. I actually can't think of anything else right now. I also see the benefit of being able to read cursive.

 

Spelling, though - you can work on spelling without writing. Not sure how any of these would work with the other issues you are dealing with, but spelling bee-type practice is a technique we have used a lot. I've seen a kinetic component added to it (jumping jacks, squat jumps), although that doesn't work for my son. Tiles or stamps if you need visual. Or spelling bee with someone scribing on a white board so he can see it. 

 

Another idea:

We do spelling soccer. 2 chairs set up in our kitchen as the goals, and a small, soft foam ball. We play until it goes out of bounds or someone scores, then he spells a word out loud. If it's not right, I spell it correctly and have him repeat it. Always end with him spelling it correctly, even if you have to write it on the board and ask him to spell it while he is looking at the correct spelling. We are doing Apples and Pears now, but he still asks to do spelling soccer so I compile a list of words he has misspelled recently and we work on those.

 

 

[Lecka]

Responding to pp ---- yes!  it is TRYING to learn to read cursive.  Even that is not so easy that "of course he will be able to do it."  It is HARD.  

 

It is worth making the effort.  

 

But you know what, if the effort is made and he can't do it, I am going to Do Battle in the future to make sure it is know and that nobody gives him an attitude that he can't read cursive.  People are ignorant and don't understand it can be difficult to even learn to read cursive.  

 

They have no idea of my son's struggles to learn to read print at all.  

 

But -- to try to learn, that is okay.  

 

But yeah ---- I agree, if he tries and he can do it, then that is great.  If eh tries and there is not progress or the progress is quite slow and small --- then hey, that is going to be how it it and we will make it work.  Even if there are some snobs going "why can't this child read cursive' like it is some "oh, these kids who just didn't bother to learn cursive"  I hate that attitude and I will fight it with everything I can.  And if I cannot fight it and people are being mean to my son in a way I know people are capable of being mean to a child who has a hard time with things that are supposed to be easy, then definitely I am not going to leave him there.  I will try and hope, but I can't make people be nice.  

 

Everything has not been perfect and I have regrets..... I am overall happy with how things are working out, but I have regrets and there have been frustrations and a few times of major frustration for my son (notably timed math facts in 2nd grade, which we were able to address, but sadly not until my son was brought to tears, which I am just so sorry about) and so I think ----- even though I am going "in his IEP this and this" like we have got this 100% good experience, there is a lot of difficulty and frustration in there, too.  

 

But it is just a hard thing to deal with, as much as it can seem like "oh, it is the digital age."  It is still hard.  

 

But looking ahead I think my son will have pretty smooth sailing with technology as he gets older.  

 

But yeah, he is not at the point where all of that has come together for him.  But he is a lot closer for it coming together for him than he was in years past, so that is nice.  

 

There are two things happening.  On one side, things are getting a little easier for him in various ways as he gets older (with mixes of OT and just getting older).  Then on the other side, there are expectations and what is going on in school.  

 

They are a mix.  Now ---- he has gotten better every year, so in a way he was the most frustrated when he was younger, with just plain struggling.  But, the expectations were very low, then, too.  It was a very small part of his day, and teachers just said "oh, he is still young."  He did not suffer as far as expectations and "what is happening" at the time he was suffering most as far as "he just can barely write."  

 

But then while he is getting better and on that side, it is getting easier, on the other side, the amount of writing and the expectations and the awareness of other childrens's skill levels and feeling like 'I have the worst handwritng in my grade" have all incrased, even while his actual difficulty with just writing at all has come to be in a much better situation.

 

It is really hard.  

 

My son has got a lot going for him, and coming from a place where he was also behind in reading, I spent time just feeling like "hey, he can read."  

 

But still -- this is hard stuff.  

 

But it is also like -- hey, it is just handwriting.  It is not global in nature.  He is going to be okay in the future.

 

But even knowing those things, it is still really hard.  

 

Things take so long, too.  Like -- I feel like I have spent years waiting for my son's typing to improve enough that he can actually type in a way that is functional and easy for him.  He has improvement to make in typing, but just that he has gotten this far, has taken YEARS.  

 

It would not have done anythign for him to have an AlphaSmart in 2nd grade, imo.  It would not have been something that would have helped him in 2nd grade.  It would have been just as frustarating as handwriitng.  But, that was 2nd grade.  Now he would do great with that (but he is using a computer or iPad for typing b/c that is what they have at his school).   

 

So I love the Alpha Smart (or equivalent) in 2nd grade for kids where that is a solution in 2nd grade.  It just -- my son would not have been able to use it in 2nd grade.  But I think that is the perfect solution and the right time for kids where they can use the Alpha Smart!  But if that is not reality -- well, it is back to scribing and oral answers and creativity, I think.  

 

It is really not easy, though.  I feel like it is hard for *me* and that is just in:  okay, it is very time-consuiming to scribe so much, and it does or can interfere with independence.  This is kind-of why I am so glad my son has gotten the homework help (a huge thing for the principal to give him) b/ cit means *I* am not scribing and scribing and scribing.  (And this is -- when he does get oral answers!  For soem thing -- there is just a process to go through, where he needs to see his throughs on paper and go over things and have that reflection, and it is just So Much Work sometimes)....... But I am not even the one who is experiencing the difficulties and frustrations.  I mean -- it is hard for me just dealing with it on my end, not in the sense that I am aware of my son having difficulties and frustrations.  If anything I know this, but I still have to work and work to remain patient with him.  it is hard.  It is not something where we have a perfect situation.

 

But there is a lot of reason for me to look on the bright side and also my son is doing pretty well right now (especially since he has got the IEP!!!!!!!!!!).  

Edited November 20, 2015 by Lecka

[Pen]

And now for a different view...

 

For my ds, he has figured out a signature now that it is needed to go along with a bank account and debit card. He can write in printing better than in cursive (I know for some kids it is the opposite), and when he does so can make it neat and legible, but it is very slow for him. Spending time working on typing was more worthwhile than time on penmanship, which in retrospect, I feel was a waste that could have been better spent in other endeavors...I suppose if he had developed fast, readable penmanship maybe I would feel differently. Time on writing before reading was remediated was pretty much a total waste of time, except for aspects of composition where I scribed. 

 

I had my ds hold off on speech to text partly because the computer could not understand his speech, partly because I thought he would not learn penmanship at all if he was reliant on speech to text, but he will probably be getting into speech to text soon.

 

I guess maybe I am the odd voice on here that thinks letting go of penmanship entirely at age 7 would be fine, and think that something like www.talkingfingers.com to start typing work would be more useful for that 40 minutes you are now devoting to penmanship.  At around 9 with reading better remediated, I think looking again at penmanship might be worthwhile...enough to write a note to someone perhaps or a personal letter.

 

At 13 printing has come together enough for my ds that he can take notes at least a bit in his co-op, can write a personal letter, can make a note to me or to himself or to a friend, or put something on the shopping list. But I do not think work on it at 7 had anything much to do with this. At around 10 or so, maybe 11, he asked me to write out the alphabet for him, and what he did on his own to copy that worked as well as, or better than, what he had tried to do with programs, in an IEP at public school, and in Waldorf school (which is big on having pretty cursive) put together. It helped a lot to have reading familiarity with letters, rather than trying to learn the letter formation while he was still not having understanding of the reading. It also helped him to be where we could discuss typefaces and how different a letter could look and still be recognizable as a particular letter. In many cases he also developed his own way of forming letters, which is not the standard, but works (such as he goes up rather than down for many strokes, such as on capital H), at least it works with modern pens and pencils--probably would have splayed out a nib. Working out his own way rather than trying to follow the book way seemed to help too.

 

He will probably be able to read the cursive of anyone important in his life (wife, say) such that he learns that particular cursive style, but he cannot generalize most cursive styles to be able to read them, and again, the time involved seems to be more than the benefits. If he becomes something where he has to for work, I expect he will figure it out, or have someone to help him, but otherwise he asked relatives to print when they write for him. I expect if he goes to college, cursive on black boards if there are any left by then could be an issue, but that may be a thing of the past.

[Lecka]

I think that is a good point, too.  

 

You have the freedom to do that with homeschooling.  

 

Really, it is probably the last place to  get hung up on what is going on in a public school classroom.  

 

I do think that some multisensory tracing did help my son with learning his letters and letter sounds, though, so I think that has some help to reading.

 

But handwriting itself, as far as pencil on paper, I don't think has contributed to reading or spelling for him.  It is *supposed* to contribute, I know, but I don't think it *has* contributed.  

 

I think it does help him to do math by hand, though, to be honest.  I think I see some connection there.  I have never seen a sign of it wrrt reading or spelling.  For some reason math is usually easier for my son anyway and a strength for him, so that might just be something about him.   

 

He struggled a lot with reversed and completely sideways numbers, and that was helped with OT.  He still has some reversals of numbers but his situation with numbers is much better than with letters.  But with the sheer amount of writing with math (when there is a lot of writing required) then that builds up into a problem, too.  But there are times when he is going along fine with the amount of writing required for math, b/c it is a low amount and possible for him.  

 

Edit:  I also agree on the point about functionality/usefulness of being able to read cursive in life past high school.  I think I am just being told, he will need it to get through middle school and high school in our district, or it would be a nice functional skill for him to get through middle school and high school in our district.  I NEVER have any need to read cursive as an adult.  And, if it proves that it is not worth the effort, then that is going to be how it is and that will be how it is.  It is just a goal at this point, I am optimistic b/c the OT and resource teacher at the IEP meeting were optimistic and wanted to give cursive another try with him just in case it will be easier for him now that he has gotten older.  

 

Edited November 20, 2015 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

I'm just now catching up!  :)

 

Heathermomster--I like your idea to teach him cursive for his name.  I agree, that might satisfy his itch.

 

Lecka--I love how you've parsed this through, separating handwriting and output.  You're right that those are entirely different goals.  Don't laugh, but I assumed I was failing by not having him write the spelling because the Barton manual said they have to write the spelling (yeah, yeah, you know me) and because my 1st psych report said make sure he writes.  Sigh.  So I'm just so literal I guess.  But I agree you're correct that I could modify that to tiles and move on, duh.  Just hadn't even occurred to me.  It should have, and it hadn't.  And you're right, dd's handwriting took SO long to become automatic, it hadn't occurred to me to think the same might happen with ds.  I just figured I'd do better, being the 2nd time around and being so fabulous and all that.  :D

 

Onestep--That's an amazing story!  

 

TxMama--I had not heard that, that no matter how much time we spend, the outcome is likely to be the same.  That's a reality check and what I needed to hear.  That makes it make more sense, sigh.

 

Geodob--I agree, and this is the biggest challenge of dealing with so many diagnosed disabilities at once!  It's hard to both remediate/intervene AND open up to the amazing things he can do.  I think some little lightbulbs are going off now in my head, so thanks.  Like with our nature study curriculum, once a week is enough.  Music therapy is just once a week.  So why not just once a week where we really make some effort to explore that technology and output together creatively...

 

Julie--You're right, that's what I hadn't given myself permission to do, to SEPARATE the handwriting from the other subjects.  The Barton manual said to, and by gum the psych said to, and so I was like ok then we won't be able to do those things until he can write them like it says.  And then it's like whoa, are you sure this is going to work, ever going to get there, or even wise to wait like that??  So to go ahead and separate them makes a LOT more sense, duh.  Lots more.  It was sort of the elephant in the room, and I wasn't seeing it because I was stuck on those instructions.  Oops.

 

Lecka--You're blowing my mind with the cursive thing.  It had not even been on my radar.   :mellow: 

 

Onestep--Totally agree, and thanks for sharing that difference with your kids.  It's weird, because I've had this label for him for months now, but I didn't understand what I was looking at, kwim?  

 

Prairie--You're right that with the way our stations are set up right now he *doesn't* have that visual reference.  Interesting idea.

 

Heathermomster--Oh, oh, I finally GET it!!!!!!!!!!!!!  NOW I get why they were using the alphasmart!!!  Because if you PRINT it, you HAVE it!!!!!  I mean, like not to be dumb, but there's no fun in typing something onto a screen and saying see, I made something, I'm awesome.  No, the FUN of it is in the PRODUCT.  But to have a product, you have to PRINT it!!!!!!!!!!!!  Yes, I'm that slow, lol.  So, duh, we do the project and PRINT it.  Not just do the project and say nice file on the hard drive.  Duh.  Then it really doesn't matter a flying flip if it's printed or handwritten, because you still have a product, inhand.

 

Story--That's interesting.  I think, at this point, if I just said write and don't worry about how it looks, not much would get onto the page.  But I could try it a bit more open-ended like that and see what happens.  

 

Suzan--Your spelling soccer sounds fun!!  :D

 

Pen--I really appreciate what you've shared, because that's basically what we're experiencing and what I've been thinking.  His reading and understanding of text is so formative (even in Barton 4) that he doesn't have much use for writing except for words here or there.  Of course, I say that and he was reading me the lyrics to O Christmas Tree today in the car.  Like ALL the words!!   :hurray:   He's learning it for Winter Fest.  He's going to sing it, hehe.  Y'all are catching on to how AMAZING that is, right?  He has the tune for the first line down pretty solidly, so now they're working on the tune for the 2nd part (that goes up and down more).  He's super pleased with himself and goes around singing just that one line "O Christmas tree, Oh Christmas tree" over and over to people, hehe.   :lol:  Maybe y'all can have video when he performs, just for the holiday cheer.  :D

 

Wow, did I just rabbit trail?  Um, back to writing.  I appreciate your take and that's about where this is going.  I got him Talking Fingers and we did some then got waylaid.  He likes it, so it's just a matter of going back to it.  Come to think of it, I'm not sure I have it in our choice cards for our schedule.  No WONDER we're not getting to it!  

 

Lecka--That's a really interesting point that I'm realizing I didn't ask about.  He takes great glee in being able to do the writing himself for the math we do together.  We don't do it on paper right now.  We're working a lot with c-rods, so we'll set up equations on the whiteboard where we build with the rods and plus signs and equals, then underneath we do the written.  He enjoys that.  I agree if he *can* do his math written it's worthwhile.  He's really keen on the numbers, and I try to make sure a full row of our handwriting page is numbers just for that reason (because he enjoys them, because they're useful).  It just hadn't occurred to me that writing math might be easier than writing language.  That is a totally new thought, and yet it probably has some basis in brain structure and stuff.

 

 Well thanks ladies, this has given me a lot of help to sort things out and make some changes!!!!!!   :hurray:

[Lecka]

Another easy accommodation I have had mentioned to me numerous times...... it is supposed to be easier for some kids to write on a vertical surface like a whiteboard on a wall.  That is a suggestion I have gotten.  

 

There are also "slant boards," which I guess you can buy a real slant board, but they can use a binder, turned sideway, and tape the paper to the binder, and boom, you are writing on a slanted surface.  

 

These are two more easy things to try.

 

Also trying to write with an erasable marker on a white board.  That can be easier for some kids than pencil on paper.  

 

There are also pencil grip, that some kids will like.  

 

Those are just some more general things I have had mentioned to me.  I have heard that slant boards work well for some kids -- they show enough improvement with the sideways binder to make it worthwhile to buy a real slant board.  Did not seem to be something for my son, but it is easy to try.  

Edited November 21, 2015 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

His issue right now is no automaticity and slowness.  If I give him the whiteboard, it gets kinda scary, lol.  I have some little strip whiteboards that are just one line high (and ruled) that I got at Target one year.  I haven't tried them on him yet.  I thought they might be fun for variety, because then you could move words around, build sentences, unscramble, etc.

 

So if I remove the supports, his writing will get crazy. (letters up and down, not on the line, mixing upper and lower, whatever takes his fancy)  I haven't really wanted to reinforce that, if that makes sense.  I thought it was better to control it.

[Lecka]

My son used to have trouble "writing on the baseline."  I don't know what they did ---- but that improved a lot with the OT he did in 2nd-3rd grade.  

 

He still *needs* *a* *line.*  He *needs* *a* *line* *to* *write* *on.*  

 

I think you would definitely be drawing him a line on a white board, and possibly a top and bottom line, or top, bottom, and middle line, depending on what he is using.  

 

This is -- like -- things from the YEAR PLUS of OT my son did in 2nd-3rd grade.  He made a lot of gains, like being able to write "on the baseline."  But that did not start until over a year after where you are ---- your son is a 1st grader, and my son started OT in Spring of 2nd grade.  Actually, he was doing some extra HWT from Spring of 1st grade, but then a re-eval in Spring of 2nd grade showed he basically made zero progress with his year of extra practice with HWT, so he moved into more OT then.  Sigh.  

 

I do not really have any actual good advice for you.

 

I was truly focused on reading only in that time period.  I scribed everything he needed me to at home for him, in that time period, and did zero as far as handwriting at home.  Then, he had the trouble with the timed math facts in 2nd (sad, sad trouble) but his teacher was very willing to let him do his math facts orally in the hallway with a para, and that worked out great for him.  Then I forgot about it more to keep working on reading.  Lol.  

 

This year (5th) is basically the year it absolutely will not work for me to scribe whatever work my son needs me to scribe, that he brings home from school.  That has been a theme.  And I think we were both happy with it and felt like it was a good option.  Until this year, and it is just too much for that to work out anymore.  Not that that has been the only thing, but that has been part of the story for how my son got through 4th grade in school with things going well (nice teachers and helpful teachers, making some other informal accommodations, has been a huge theme as well).  This year it is beyond what informal accommodations and bringing stuff home for me to scribe with him, can do, i am so glad he has got the IEP now, b/c he needs it this year.  

 

We have public school-related issues, too, where once he starts to fall behind, this causes him to go "on no I'm falling behind" and then that feeling causes him to freeze up and then if he gets in that cycle, he falls even more behind.  And, gets more frozen.  So, that was happening, it is not good.  But the resource room teacher is familiar with this pattern and we are SO on the same page.  But, he has kind-of got the IEP now b/c some things did not go well first trimester this year.  I don't want to go into it too much.  I will just say ---- it was not ideal.  To avoid this kind of thing is a huge plus for homeschooling.  You guys should appreciate it I think.  

Edited November 21, 2015 by Lecka

[Kat w]

We have the dysgrafyia issues too. Just a quick reply ( short on time) .

I used the draw write now books and put tracing paper over it. They traced the letters which helped a ton. Let's them see the spaces between words etc.

They love tracin the picture too :) builds stamina in a fun way. My boys would say...my hand hurts! But, keep going because it was a topic a format they enjoyed and easy enough at first and not intimidating. Really helped to boost their confidence to see a 'beautiful' finished product .

 

We also used stress balls to bounce then encouraged them to squeeze them for fun. Playdoh, the name brand did alot at first to build hand muscles and coordination these little ones need.

 

More I wanted to say but time....why don't we ever have enough of it?? ;-)

OhE. I wanted to thank you for all of your detailed info on the board. I have taken notes and implemted some of them and have plans for others :)

A. If huge thank you to all you ladies.I have read the board for couple years now. Just now joined and ...this is only my second reply. :-)

Thank you all for all your time to share your info ! I needed it lol

[Kat w]

Oh. And on the cursive issue . believe it or not....for my older son, I let him start cursive. He was a little discouraged at times but I belf his hand to trace and get it down and he moved on and on. On his own accord even. *shocking*

Then? He said on his own. I forget how to make a capital G. ( he never got that far lol) then be went back and did the draw write now books and came away with the absolute most beautiful print! Even he was surprised . now he has beautiful handwriting and loves it.

This is a kid that struggles and works hard for everything he gets so...huve feat.

Conquered √

Confidence built √

 

Oh happy day :) lol

[PeterPan]

Kat, I LOVE your idea for tracing the DWN books!!!!!!!!!!!!  Someone had mentioned tracing (which seemed brilliant), but that just makes it so easy to implement.  I picked up the set at a used sale last summer, thinking he would enjoy them, and I didn't really have a way, timing, thought process on how to get there.  He might think that was really cool.  It would at least be worth a try.  :)  And I'm glad you're sharing on the boards now!  :)

[PeterPan]

Lecka, just for your weird trivia, the Therapeutic Listening made a big difference in ds' writing and actually just overall motor planning.  After about a month of it (maybe 3 weeks? I forget) people started commenting.  His wetting has improved DRAMATICALLY.  His motor planning for swimming improved.  His handwriting can actually hit the baseline.  Before, line, no line, didn't matter, lol.  Wild.

[Heathermomster]

The Alphasmart is no longer made though the product may be found on the used market. It is a very durable word processor that runs off of AA batteries. To print, you connect it with a USB cable to a compatible printer or send the files to a computer and print from the computer. The Alphasmart is the cheaper/durable alternative to a PC or tablet without any bells or whistles. PC and tablets now fill the Alphasmart void but lack ruggedness.

If I could go back in time, DS would be typing in 2nd grade.

 

ETA:  Yes, the wp produces a product that demonstrates the student has understanding.  Unfortunately, not all kiddos with motor issues will be able to type, and the student is being actively encouraged to hunt and peck until they are mature and able enough to learn correctly.  I think a wp should be introduced slowly and maybe restrict use for spelling with the spell checker turned off.  

 

The wp is helpful but not a shangri la type thing where all your troubles are washed away.  DS went full typing in 6th grade while sitting in a nt classroom.  He had to remember to carry his hole puncher and stapler plus haul the device to class.  He still had to remember to print everything and keep his friends hands off the device because the device has proven to be a magnet for logic staged boys.  Getting him to sit and actually try to type was a deliberate matter requiring bribes and my sheer force of will.  He fought the lessons initially and never became thrilled about them; of course, he thanks me now.  I could have never made him sit to learn after 5th grade (11yo).  I know 4 dyslexic teenagers locally aged 16-18yo, and their parents given up teaching them to type.  I have written all of the above to point out that accommodating the dysgraphia can take years to streamline and is not always easy.  DS carries a PC now to outside classes, and typing with all the extras has become 2nd nature.  Now the main concern is remembering to charge the device.

 

A word about math.  The first three weeks of chemistry entailed DS learning to type his math on the pc. He can do it, but wow!  It was hard to learn and the equations were all algebraic concepts.  I almost think learning to write numbers may be of more value than letters if you know your child will be typing.  

Edited November 21, 2015 by Heathermomster

[geodob]

Though just over a century ago, in the early 1900's.

Their was hot debate among education dept's, schools and teacher unions.

As well as the general community.

About the introduction of a new technology?

Where new technology had enabled the 'low cost' production of paper and pencils.

Which had become so cheap, that even children could be allowed to use a pencil.

 

So that the idea of allowing children to use 'pencil and paper' in classrooms, was raised?

Though their was great resistance to this !

Where being able to write something down, was viewed as cheating?

Especially with math, as one should be able to do this using mental math.

So that doing a math calculation by writing it down?

Was viewed as cheating.

Their was also a concern, that children would become too reliant on using 'pencil and paper', and lose their ability to think and remember?

But after many years of heated debate, the use of pencil and paper by children in schools, was finally accepted.

 

So that 100 years later, we are having a new technology being discussed?

Edited November 21, 2015 by geodob

[PeterPan]

Geodob, that is HILARIOUS!!

[Heathermomster]

My son's teacher took no issue with DS typing his math.  Son's problem is that sw we have found is time consuming and cumbersome.  

[wapiti]

Heather, anything new on that front, apps that he likes better for typing math? Being able to write (type) numbers and signs more clearly would be such a huge help.

Edited November 24, 2015 by wapiti

[Heathermomster]

Nothing new really.  Once he got through the unit factor method and q=mc(delta T), he stopped typing.  His math typing is problem specific.  DS was dealing with Kelvins and kilos, big Cals and little cals, and calorimeter problems.  Anyhoo..we used the Mathematics MS Word add-on that geodob has mentioned in other threads.  The Mathematics add-on should work with OneNote.  DS had to create generic equations to speed up the process.  I was actually thinking about looking at Desmos after seeing you mention it. :D  

 

On the plus side, son's attention to detail has increased considerably. 

[Lecka]

It is kind of nice for me to see other people have a similar experience with math.

 

It didn't seem like math would be too much of a problem, for my son, in s way, when he was younger.  it is easy to do oral answers for math for a younger child, and it is much  less writing-intensive than other subjects.  

 

But now it is like -- well, the other things besides math seem to be good with typing (and oral answers and scribing and some handwriting).

 

But for math -- in long division my son needs the practice, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way for him to get the practice or do the thinking involved without some help to either scribe or sit with him and re-write a bit as needed.  He can do a few problems on his own independently, but it is not functional.  He loses steam b/c of writing and not b/c of math.  

 

There have been times in math where this has not been much of an issue.  This year it is with long division.  And then -- it will probably come and go moving forward, and I hope he will be able to use some software, too. 

 

It is just like -- it is unexpected!  I agree with pp, with a young child I didn't realize that numbers would be so important!  

 

OhE ---- on the therapeutic listening side, it is not therapeutic listening, but the school OT wants to go back to Rhythmic Movement with my son b/c she thinks he is ready for it more at his age and that it will help him.  So he will be doing some of those "whole brain integrations" type stuff and the OT is optimistic.  

 

He was doing ingegration-type stuff that help him in OT a couple of years ago, and it did help him make some gains, but then his progress just slowed way way down.  I am hearing that they see that wtih age and then at a later age you can start up more and see a new period of progress.  

 

Honestly I have a lot going on and this is an area that is not one I give the most focus.  I have a lot going on, though.  I can't do everything.  I wish I could but I can't!  

Edited November 21, 2015 by Lecka

[wapiti]

Lecka have you seen http://www.modmath.com ?

[Lecka]

No, I haven't.  Thank you.  I am going to ask about that next week!  And see wat my husband thinks (he is the technological one).  

[Kat w]

OhE, I just saw that you replied to the DWN. Sorry im a newbie and electronically challenged lol .

Glad you like and hope it helps :) worked wonders for us. We still go back and sometimes do them for ' fun' or history. Helps keep them on track too.

 

Thank you for your warm welcome :) Much appreciated. I've learned so much here.

 

I'm very interested in the listening therapy you mentioned on another post I think. They did it with ds in PS. He grew leaps and bounds with it. I'm glad you've mentioned it. I need to find a therapist in our area to get us started and I suppose I will have to bite the bullet and buy the focus devise. This is the same thing you're talking about...am I right? Either way, he does really well with thst kind of thing.

 

Everything is so expensive . ugh. We are picking and choosing and prioritizing what to get when. He's very visual and finally got dh on board with brainsafari. Haven't ordered it yet tho. ....next....payday :/

[Storygirl]

OhE, are you using any handwriting program, or are you just having him copy what you write for him?

 

The reason I ask is that I taught DS11 with A Reason for Handwriting, which has the student copy Bible verses on pages that they can then color. His papers were NEVER perfect. I did not require that, as I could tell it was a losing battle. We aimed for them to be legible.

 

If you had a handwriting page for him to do, then your goal could be "complete this page" not "write all the letters perfectly."

 

By the way, the NP said that cursive would be better for him. He did learn it, but does not choose to use it. Because the letters are connected, cursive removes the task of figuring out where to put the pencil to start each letter. If your son wants to try cursive, maybe it would work better for him.

[DeniseF]

I haven't tried it but there is an iPad math app for dysgraphia, it's free, called ModMath.  In its current version it only works for lower level math like addition, subtraction, multiplication, long division, fractions.  This thread reminded me that I was planning to look into it!

[wapiti]

FWIW, I received an advertising email from the STAR center this morning (place where my kids had OT many years ago) about a handwriting boot camp:

 

How do we enhance your child’s handwriting?

We use the CEW© program. This means we utilize music, movement, engagement, and visual-spatial support to create a low pressure and engaged learning environment. CEW© was developed in 2012 by occupational therapists and in 2014 the program was researched in two studies with outcomes demonstrating significant changes in writing, early literacy skills, and motor and visual motor skills.

 

I have no idea what CEW is - it just sounded interesting.  Unfortunately it is not inexpensive.

[PeterPan]

Connect Experience Write (CEW)® Handwriting Program ...

[BooksandBoys]

Lecka have you seen http://www.modmath.com ?

I just looked this up. I want to cry right now because this looks amazing for my child. He's quite accelerated in math, but is constantly held back by his (as yet undiagnosed) major writing challenges. We just hit automaticity with numbers (not letters) a few months ago, but forget setting up his 4th grade math problems without major help. He does pre algebra orally, but he can't "write" pre algebra, and with two other kids, I don't have time to give him an hour of oral math a day, plus the OT, the handwriting training, the writing support in all his other subjects, and the constant scaffolding for attention and behavior challenges. Oh, app, please be as awesome as you look.

[Pen]

I've been away, but reading the above, I wanted to agree that I also think work on being able to write numbers is more helpful than work on penmanship. I think some kids have a lot of trouble with word/letters, but not numbers, and some have both. Mine did not have a lot of trouble with writing numbers, but does have trouble with neat lining up and so on, for which graph paper can be a help.