Low IQ and Lips and Barton?

[Guest mama26kids]

My twin 8 year old daughters were recently diagnosed with ASD. The full IQ test also came back in the low 70's. They are receiving ST, OT and PT and are getting results slowly. They are also seeing a second speech therapist who is doing Lips with them, also a tutor who is coming 3 hours a week to reinforce the Lips and she has also done the Barton screening, but they can't pass level 3. I have tried teaching them phonics and reading for about 4 years now with minimal progress. I feel like they are really starting to get the difference in sounds because of Lips. They both also have a strong desire to learn to read. Has anyone else had kiddos with low IQ's be able to progress through Barton? I just feel they are so much more capable than that IQ score, but I also don't want to set unrealistic goals for them. I'm pretty sure the IQ score is accurate because they did it at the Children's Hospital and also just had a full IQ test because I have applied for SSI for both of them to be able to afford services.

[Lecka]

Do you mean they are not passing the 3rd section of the Barton screening?  If so -- it is good they are doing LIPS.  LIPS is going to be good for them whatever program you move into, and help them a lot.  

 

My son has autism, too, and we are very early in him learning to read.  He happens to be using a program that is not Barton, he is using Reading Mastery, we think it is going to be more appropriate for him.  

 

I think -- when they are doing Lips and making progress ------ have optimism that they can learn to read.  They are getting their foundational skills.

 

You can talk to the tutor/speech therapist.  Do they think they can use and/or adapt Barton for your girls?  If they seem good -- I would listen to them.

 

Everything for my son is needing to be adapted, and he is very early and taking a long time for everything.... but we expect it will take a while, but that he will be able to learn.  

 

Even if an IQ test is correct ----- for autism, the scores are just not going to work in a way where you can get predictions from them.  That is what I think.  The IQ tests are not designed for children with autism -- who have certain strengths and weaknesses.  Strengths and weaknesses truly may not be reflected by an IQ test number, even if the test score is correct.  It is just a number and just a score on a test.  

[PeterPan]

Have you called Barton and talked with her directly?  I don't think Barton is used for low IQ situations.  My ds has comprehension from his ASD that complicates his learning to read.  In his case, Barton has helped him learn to decode, but he couldn't understand what he was reading.  You may have more complications than you expect.  You might want to look for a tutor with experience with ASD.  

 

I think Barton's target age is 3rd grade and up.  I just think you're going to find the models and reading samples might not fit your situation.  If the tutor has OG certification and an ASD certificate, they can be more flexible.  I'm not even sure OG is the preferred methodology for your situation.  Have you looked at the I See Sam readers?  You can download them for free.  Ottakee here on the boards used them successfully.

 

I'm rereading your post here.  Have you had them screened by an audiologist for CAPD?  Our university will do an audiology exam and run the SCAN3 screening portion for $35.  Might be good to check, just to make sure there's not anything additional making the auditory discrimination so challenging.

[Ottakee]

Have you tried the I See Sam series of books for learning to read? Www.iseesam.com or www.3rsplus.com

 

That is what I used to teach my girls to read....one with IQ in the lower 70s and one with IQ in the mid 50s. It is the only thing that worked for them. It was still a long hard process but it worked.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I spoke to Susan Barton recently about iq and the program.

 

Her recommendation is an IQ or 70 or higher AND minimum language skills of a second grader.

[Lecka]

My son doesn't have the minimum language skills of a 2nd grader.  

 

Reading Mastery is fine for this situation.  It uses all easy words and simple, short sentences (from what I have seen).  I have seen people mention words and sentences from Barton where I think ----- that is not appropriate right now.  

 

I am not saying it is what you should do ----- it is kind-of just what is used here.  But it it not too complex.  

 

It is expensive but my son's therapist is able to borrow it from school.  

 

http://www.autismclassroomresources.com/resources-for-teaching-reading-to-students-with-autism/    This is a link that talks a bit about teaching to read with autism.

 

I have also looked at this program, ALL reading, which would be possible for my son's therapist to borrow.  It is also an option. http://www.mayer-johnson.com/pdf/printableResources/PI_2014/MJ_ALL_PIsheet_2014.pdf

 

http://aacliteracy.psu.edu/ This is the website associated with the ALL program.

 

I think for RM and ALL (ones I have looked into a bit) they do not require a 2nd grade language level.  If your kids have a 2nd grade language level ----- then that is great, they can use something appropriate to them.  I also would be open to a quality person adapting anything.  

 

There are other things out there that I hear about, but I just do not have access to them.  Now, if I did not have access to anything, and I was going to be paying, I would look more at other quality programs that get mentioned for autism.  But when RM is what is available and it seems like it is appropriate, I am not looking around saying "can I spend $$$ on something else?" at this point.  Just to let you know my situation.  

 

if you look at the "autism classroom resources" and see her review comprehensive programs ----- I do not have access to any of those.  If you might be able to borrow those somehow, or pay for them, or get in with somebody who has them, etc, ------ they are things to look at, too.  But it is fine with me that these are not available in my area.  But it is one of those things -- maybe they are available in your area.  

 

But please don't let me put you off Barton, if it seems like it will work.  It sounds like your girls are making progress with LIPS.  Whoever is working with them on that ----- ask that person.  That is what I would do.  Ask that person:  "what have you used with kids with similar abilities to my daughter?" and see what they say.  Ask what progress they have seen (ask about the better and less-good outcomes both) with other kids they have worked with who have abilities similar to your daughters.  I would ask this kind of thing.   

 

I do agree about looking into I See Sam, too.  

[PeterPan]

I spoke to Susan Barton recently about iq and the program.

 

Her recommendation is an IQ or 70 or higher AND minimum language skills of a second grader.

 

Bingo.  And the CELF or CASL or whatever your SLP has done will tell you this.  My ds has a gifted IQ, 99th percentile vocabulary, and 28th%ile comprehension of a single sentence.  He couldn't understand the Barton stories, even once he could decode them.  And I'm saying we were going line by line (I retyped them), looking at a single sentence, and he could not understand "The frog sat on the log."  

 

When she says they'll need the language (comprehension) skills AND the IQ, she really means it.  Both parts.  The ASD plus this is nasty and really makes it complicated. I finally gave up on decoding and decided to work on comprehension with speech therapy materials.  We're probably going to make a push again on decoding because it will help his speech.  It's just that he can't merely decode his way into reading because he can't comprehend what he's reading.  That is *improving* with the speech therapy materials, but I literally still can't get him forward.  By Barton 4, the models were just insurmountably hard.  He can decode them, but read and comprehend, he cannot.

 

What some people do is use audiobooks to keep them acquiring vocabulary, acquiring language, just like they were reading, then keep working on the comprehension in parallel or even use immersion reading.  Then, when the language comprehension gets up enough, it all comes together.  But I'm hearing there can be a disconnect of years there.

 

The CELF is a very common language test and the one we had.  Definitely ask if they had it.

[PeterPan]

 

But please don't let me put you off Barton, if it seems like it will work.  It sounds like your girls are making progress with LIPS.  Whoever is working with them on that ----- ask that person.  That is what I would do.  Ask that person:  "what have you used with kids with similar abilities to my daughter?" and see what they say.  Ask what progress they have seen (ask about the better and less-good outcomes both) with other kids they have worked with who have abilities similar to your daughters.  I would ask this kind of thing.   

 

I do agree about looking into I See Sam, too.  

Hehe, I've used Barton and I can say be careful, lol.   :D  You know what would be really terrific?  Continue LIPS, really make LIPS pop with games and kinesthetic stuff, etc., then use LIPS to *teach* the words in the I See Sam books.  In the ASD charter school here they use word walls.  I think there's a focus on functionality.  I found a book at the library on ASD and teaching reading.  You could try amazon and see what pops up, then see what your library can get you.  You could blend LIPS and your language instruction even!  Like use LIPS to teach the prepositions, then DO the prepositions with a blend of word cards and objects.  

 

You know what would be really cool?  Are you doing independent work stations with them?  Use LIPS to teach the I See Sam words, then type those words onto cards/strips.  Then set them up with an independent work station where you print the pictures/pages of the I See Sam books.  After all, I think the free versions are pdfs, yes?  So print those, cover the words with a taped on tab they can lift up, then let them place their word strips to make the sentences and self-check!  Or even simpler, just place their word strips on top of the words already on the page.  Independent work to practice reading.  

 

If that's not right, you would fiddle with it and do it a way they'd like.  I'm doing scrambled sentences with my ds right now, and he enjoys them.  Ours are in a workbook, and he can basically just do one a day.  I think you'll be surprised how challenging basic things are.

 

Are these SLPs doing the LIPS tutoring also certified in OG?  If they are not, that might explain why they're having such a hard time.  LIPS is good, but with my ds I brought Barton 1 into it.  He needed a much more careful implementation to make things click.  It might be you need a different tutor, someone with more areas of training so they have more tools to pull from their toolbox.  Around here I can get an SLP trained in OG who also has an ASD certificate.  That would be something to look for.

[chiguirre]

I taught Geezle to read (ASD, similar IQ score) to read using Pathway readers and workbooks, Learning Language Arts Through Literature Blue and Red, Calvert's 1st and 2nd grade readers, HOP, etc. It just took lots and lots and lots of repetition. He's been using Apples and Pears and if he still needed to learn to read, I'd try Dancing Bears. A&P is by far the best spelling program for Geezle. The repetition and minimal rule memorization has improved his spelling immensely. He can now get close enough to google topics. That's a big improvement. He still prefers to read 3rd or 4th grade chapter books but he can read the hi-lo high school modified texts. 

 

It just takes lots and lots of patience but they will eventually learn.

 

Another thing that helped Geezle's language development and reading comprehension skills was using Five in a Row. There are similar free unit studies at

 

http://www.homeschoolshare.com/levels.php

 

This was a lot of fun.

[PeterPan]

Chiguirre, can you tell me more about using the FIAR for language development and reading comprehension?  :)

[Lecka]

I could not find anyone locally with any kind of OG experience, let along OG plus speech therapy plus an autism certificate. 

 

Just b/c I have seen it before -- I can say I think ALL reading could tie in with working on phonemic awareness skills.  Barton Level 1 is working on phonemic awareness skills.  Well, that is not the only way to work on phonemic awareness skills -- there are a lot of options.  I agree on asking about ways you could supplement by working more on phonemic awareness, and looking at phonemic awareness levels of programs. 

 

I agree Barton Level 1 is a high-quality program, too.  It would be very hard for my son in ways that do not have to do with phonemic awareness, but in just the way it is set up, right now, I think.  (I have it in the closet from my older son!)  I think it is too abstract for him to ask him to have a colored tile stand for a sound.  Honestly I think that is too abstract for him as a concept.

 

But there are ways to cover that same phonemic awareness kind of skill that do not use the "a colored tile stands for a sound" concept. 

[chiguirre]

)

Chiguirre, can you tell me more about using the FIAR for language development and reading comprehension?   :)

 

I did as written except that we skipped the (lame) math activities most weeks. We did all three volumes when Geezle was 7 and Trinqueta was 5 in addition to doing reading, handwriting and math. My kids liked reading the same story over and over and discussing different aspects each day. Most of the projects were pretty easy or I simplified them to minimize mess. We got geography videos from the library but now I'm sure you could just use youtube. We cooked something related or went to the appropriate type of restaurant (so Chinese or Japanese or La Madeleine as our French choice :lol: ).

 

Reading the story over and over helps develop vocabulary and answering the questions gives kids a chance to practice their verbal skills. Geezle was probably just in the sweet spot of being ready to learn more vocabulary and practice talking while still being young enough to enjoy the stories. Having Trinqueta along for the ride made it more fun for him and he had a model of what was expected for the projects.

 

Before I went ahead and bought FIAR, I'd use a couple of units from homeschoolshare to see if I liked small unit studies or not.

[VinNY]

My child had in the low 70's IQ at that age ..language impaired and very low working memory. Keep at the LiPs..it takes time to sink in. I also used I See Sam readers and couldn't jump into a full O-G program (Recipe for Reading) until a year later. She is now 14, reading at a 7th grade level and her full scale IQ is 81 and her GAI is 93.  Keep doing the therapies and get help with having them learn through O-G...  IQ is fluid.

 

I also love Apples and Pears for spelling. My child was being held back in O-G because of the spelling component ( written expression issues and her language impairment) so I concentrated on the reading exercises and used Apples and Pears for their approach to spelling. She is now at a 5/6th grade spelling level.

[Plink]

Didn't read previous replies - sorry if this is repetitive

 

My low IQ kid did well with LiPS and Barton (we've since switched to Wilson, but only because of tutor availability) however we took our sweet time at every step. Don't feel bad if you are doing LiPS for years and years. It takes a while to make those neural connections strong enough to become automatic.

[Crimson Wife]

FWIW, we saw a huge difference in scores between the "non-verbal" portion of a traditional IQ test (the WPPSI) and a truly non-verbal IQ test (the Leiter). My DD's poor receptive language understanding interfered with the reliability of the test results. So if your child has receptive language challenges, be aware that the IQ may well be an underestimate of the child's true potential.

 

That said, the language challenges that my DD has means she struggles with reading. We are doing LiPS and a ton of vocabulary and syntax work.

[Guest mama26kids]

I wanted to thank everyone for their wonderful replies. To answer a couple questions they do have severe auditory processing disorder. I spoke to the speech therapist who is a certified OG provider and she feels they are doing really well with LIPS, the tutor is also reinforcing the new sounds they are learning each week with walks to point out sounds, games, anything that helps make those sounds concrete. So I guess at this point we will proceed with Lips and see where that gets and I will look at the suggestions offered. I do already own Barton level 1 and hope that we can eventually proceed with that, but I guess time will tell.

 

Also I went to the special needs homeschooling conference in Orlando this last weekend and fast forward was mentioned a lot. Has anyone used Fast Forward and had good results with their APD kiddos and had good results? We've tried Earobics and didn't have great success with it. I signed up to be a provider for Fast Forward and am hesitant to spend $700 on software for each girl unless I am sure it will help them.

[Kat w]

I'm interested to hear about if fast forward worked for people too.

I didn't know there was a sn conference this weekend.

I have to get in a better loop lol (locally)

[PeterPan]

Are they giving you homework or letting you sit in on the sessions so you can follow through?  Sorry, I've lost track of how many times a week they're doing LIPS.  They'll probably need daily.  If you can sit in on the sessions and watch how the therapist is going it, might be very valuable to you, even if it required hiring a sitter or something.

 

Can you get the FFW through the ps?  Have you seen Kbutton's posts about attempting hearing aids with her ds for CAPD?  Apparently it worked beyond what you could dream.  In a situation like this, might be something to look into.  Or an fm transmitter.  Apparently the HAs work dramatically better.