Needing some reassurance I'm not 'pushing them too hard'

[abba12]

I just spent a half hour typing and retyping a post for the general education board before finally giving up and deleting it. It was asking a question, but would have forced me to reveal the children's ages, which I avoid doing wherever I can at this point, while asking for help figuring out how to assist them in doing something they weren't naturally doing by themselves. I just knew, by the end of it, that I was going to end up with a bunch of 'they're little, let them play' and 'that isn't developmentally appropriate'.

 

They just don't get it. These kids WANT to learn, they WANT me to teach them, they beg for school every day and get upset when I cut the day short. So I wanted to ask for help on how to teach them something just like anyone else with kids in these grades would, but because they're 'too young' for the grades to begin with, I shouldn't be pushing them any harder at all, and if they slow down in progress and fall back to a 'normal' level, well, THEN I can start asking how to push them ahead. Why is it almost wrong to challenge a child who is already ahead? It's like this perception that it's wrong to keep them ahead, that they're only allowed to be ahead if you can't stop them getting there. Actively helping them to stay there seems frowned upon, but I want my kids to experience challenge just like their peers, it just so happens that their challenge level is a grade or two higher.

 

I got the same attitude when I tried to talk to some mums at church. One of them was good, a 'work at whatever level currently challenges your child' type. But the others just frowned and made a few comments to the tune of 'well, they're already ahead, so if they don't immediately get the concept just back off, they don't need to get it yet'.  What, I have to wait for them to begin falling behind other kids before I'm allowed to start challenging and helping them learn?

 

But now I'm doubting myself. What if I AM pushy? What if I'm forcing them ahead and being one of 'those' mums? Am I? 

 

My husband and I were both 'gifted' kids, so we expected our kids to be bright, and they are. They are not terribly far ahead, not like some of the youngsters here.... I think it's their age. There's such a stigma right now of doing formal work at all with Kindergartners, let alone having a K-er work ahead or starting K early. In a few years I'll probably blend in a lot more. But right now I have a 4-and-a-half year old, and it's Miss I's third birthday today. At the start of the year, eldest was ready for some real work, and her friends started pre-school, so I decided to jump into K-level books and she's been thriving. But my then-2-year-old decided she WOULD do school. All I had was K4 work, so I tried it, and she is racing ahead. We do a Jan to Dec school year, and in January this coming year I am looking at having a full 1st grade and full K5 workload, with a not-quite-5yo and just-turned-3yo....  I'm a little overwhelmed, and I feel kind of scared.... I know this path, my husband and I walked it, I was doing algebra in 5th grade, DH was doing trig in 8th. I won awards for various academic pursuits throughout childhood, until I got too bored to care and gave up on school. DH and I both dropped out due to boredom, decisions we've both regretted. 

 

The kids beg for school. There are some tears like any other kids when they get frustrated, but they never want to stop 'doing school', and they're good at it, they make great progress. Should I be trying to dissuade them? I just feel so judged right now. I mean, people are ok with a 3 year old who just teaches themselves to read. But if I mention that I am actively (gently)  teaching my 3 year old to read (because she asked me to, repeatedly, at 2-and-a-half)  I am considered a pushy tiger parent who wont let them play.  People are fine with a 6 year old having a meltdown over handwriting and telling them to just keep practising, but when I try to find help for my 4yo struggling with handwriting, I'm told to just leave it another year, even though the problems are identical and the child WANTS to write. 

 

I don't really know what my point is, I'm just feeling very frustrated, and very overwhelmed at the idea of having two kids doing 'proper' school at such young ages next year, with all the immaturity that comes with it, and feeling pretty alone in it all. I don't want to post my questions here either because most of the kids here are highly accelerated, and my one or two grade difference seems silly in comparison, even if it is a lot at these ages. We need a 'people who do formal early learning' forum, and ban everyone who says 'just let them play' <_<. My kids play plenty, a huge amount, lots of different games every day. An hour of seatwork isn't going to destroy that. 

[Embassy]

I'd follow their lead.  I'm a big believer in play-based learning and putting off academics during the early years, but if the child wants to do it then do it.   For some kids academics are play.  I would personally keep all academics as child-led and optional at this stage though.  

 

I've found that judgment comes in bunches with this parenting gig.  No matter what you do, judgment abounds!  Keep your eyes on your kids rather than the comments from others.  If your kids are thriving with what you are doing, carry on.  If not, adjust.  

[Slache]

You know exactly what to do. Stop worrying about what anyone else thinks. We jump around between Miquon, Ray's and MEP. We just do whatever he wants. Everyone thinks I'm nuts allowing a 4 year old to do 1st grade work, but they don't know my 4 year old. He wrote "I want to go to Africa" and drew a picture of Africa in his notebook. What am I supposed to do with a child like that? Tell him do be quite and watch cartoons? I provide the materials and don't push and everything is fine. Just provide the materials and don't push and everything will be fine.

 

Eta: And try to keep it short if you can. We keep memory work, copy work, spelling, math, Spanish and map drills to 20 minutes. They are still kids after all. ;)

[desertflower]

You seem to be doing fine. You have some good advices here that I can echo. Just follow their lead. Make school fun and don't worry about what others think. No one knows your kids like you do and know one knows what is best for them like you do.

 

I think your friends have good intentions. They are just not in your shoes.

 

If my child wants to do school, then I wouldn't stop challenging my child.

 

Good luck.

[Sarah0000]

Do you still need advice for handwriting? My son is also an advanced writer, but did need to learn proper letter formation. He likes rhymes that say the direction to go. He traces with his finger on the sheet, then moves to writing on a whiteboard or the tablet while looking at the guide, then to lined paper with no peeking. He finds the no peeking part hilarious.

[purpleowl]

You know your own kids.  Follow their lead - which includes providing appropriate challenge.  

 

One of the best things about homeschooling, IMO, is that you can meet each child where he or she is.  Find the child's zone of proximal development and work there.  Because you know your own kids, you can interpret their signals and adjust the challenges you give them as needed.  You can tell when what you're asking is truly beyond their reach, and you can tell when they just need a little more support to be able to reach it.  

[Dmmetler]

The rule of developmentally appropriate practice (putting on my early childhood music education professor hat) is "follow the child". With a gifted young child, that means following them into places you never expected to go. If they want to learn to read, get some basic materials and play school (and when I say "play", I mean that the child thinks of it as play. It can be pretty high level, focused work for anyone else). If they want to learn to write, get the HWOT K teacher's guide and start doing those activities. But leave it up to them when and where, and when they want to drift away, let them drift. If you want to introduce a new set of materials, start playing with it yourself and be ready to turn it over when they want it. If they want workbooks and "big school", there are plenty of inexpensive options to play school with.

 

It also may mean bringing home dinosaur books from the college library to read aloud to a 3-4 yr old, or e-mailing a university in Spain on your preschooler's behest to find out what the common names of dinosaurs are in Spanish. Or taking a toddler to the Jewish Community Center because she wants to learn Hebrew (when you're not Jewish and don't have any knowledge of Hebrew whatsoever). Or spending the whole darned day in a single museum exhibit because your child has to absorb every word.

 

And, sadly, it means biting your tongue a lot around other people when your child is little so you don't hear the lectures, and when they're older so you don't get accused of "bragging". And it means watching your child learn to bite her tongue early, too, and to choose what she says carefully so she fits in. It means finding safe harbors-for you and for your kids where you don't have to hide.

 

I spend a lot of time on other boards reading and absorbing because the content I need is there-it's just coming from parents with older DC. And when I want people who "get it", I come here.

[Arcadia]

Pushy parents of gifted kids give other parents a bad name. I know more than a handful so even hubby is careful when asked about what our kids are learning. He has at least two competitive/pushy and braggy colleagues who are parents of gifted kids.

 

One boasted in office that her child hit the ceilings for the subtests of the WISC-IV test and we know its not true because she asked for help with the DYS app which her child doesn't qualify. So now the child has to cram for SAT and ACT and try to qualify to please the mom.

 

So I won't be offended if an aquaintenance assumes I am a tiger mom. Friends know I am a slacker despite coming from a pressure cooker culture.

 

ETA:

When a child is academically a few grades ahead, it is hard to get sympathy for being behind in any area except from the pediatricians. Since people assume that you do not need to spend as much time on academics, you can use that time for patching weaker areas.

 

My kids pediatrician don't care that they can read if they are behind in starting to walk or run or gripping an object. My boys had to go for more ped. visits to see if they need OT/PT. He just treat each childhood milestone separately.

[wapiti]

I won awards for various academic pursuits throughout childhood, until I got too bored to care and gave up on school. DH and I both dropped out due to boredom, decisions we've both regretted.

 

It boils down to this.  This is why you do what you do.  If you have to be labeled the pushy mom, so be it.

 

I will say that asynchronous development is a pain in the neck.  Or hand.  My advice would be to manage as best you can. Keep working on *gross motor and* fine motor activities and let them write on the computer for fun until the handwriting is working better.

 

Eta, if you look at handwriting discussions both on K-8 and on Learning Challenges forums, you may find helpful tips.  Sometimes little things, like a white board, can help (reduces friction).  Sometimes different forms of physical feedback is helpful (drawing letters in a granular medium like salt or sand).

Edited November 24, 2015 by wapiti

[mathnerd]

Follow the lead of your child - your responsibility is towards your child and your focus should not be on blending in with the crowd but on how to meet the needs of your kids. And please take this advise from a stranger on the internet with a dose of salt - avoid specifics at all times - IRL and on the internet. If you need handwriting help, ask for it without saying how old your child is. This helps to cut down the criticism from outside. And don't talk about academics, milestones etc with people in real life. For e.g. people are curious about what my son does academically - I just reply saying that DS is a playful kid who will play all day long if I let him -which is the truth and evasive. Gifted kids process information in a different way and need special help and effort just like kids on the other end of the spectrum need help. Though people don't think of gifted kids on those terms, it is true.

 

I am a wimpy tiger mom and consider myself a slacker - but, I have a Tiger Cub for a kid. I step out of my comfort zone a lot for my child and I wish that things were easier, but I am not complaining :) As for handwriting, it is common to see a lot of asynchrony in development in gifted kids. You can scaffold her by scribing for her so that the handwriting skill does not hold her back intellectually - I used to ask my DS to use stamps or stickers to mark correct answers when he was smaller and did not want to write - it was a lot of fun for him (especially the superhero stickers that he was crazy about). The handwriting improved tremendously at age 6 when we started cursive.

[SeaConquest]

I know when I'm pushing because things just don't go smoothly and I feel like a salmon swimming upstream. I tried AAS spelling with my son when he was 4, and still learning to read (thinking that it would help him with reading). It didn't go well, so we stopped, and just did HWT. He liked that. We tried formal French study this year (he's been learning it orally since birth), and it was like pulling teeth. So, we stopped. He's just not ready for formal foreign language study.

 

He drags me to do science and regards himself as a math beast (thanks to BA). I don't pay attention to what level he is learning at anymore. Instead, I just really watch for his signals when something isn't working. At that point, I just stop. I don't try to push. I've learned that, no matter the grade level, when they are ready for something, it is pretty obvious. And, when they aren't it, well, it is usually obvious as well. That has kept things pretty smooth in our homeschool, despite the acceleration.  

[Black-eyed Suzan]

You've gotten great advice here, but I want to add that you should feel free to post here! SWB's description of this board is children working ahead of grade level in one or more areas. Your children definitely fit that category! The description makes me - with my impostor tendencies and possibly 2e child - very happy.

[SKL]

I think I would back off if there were tears at those ages, but by "back off" I mean give them a break and then try something different for a while.

 

For writing (the physical part), maybe encourage more drawing and dot-to-dots, and focus on the process rather than the product.  It's not important for writing to be neat at that age, regardless of IQ.

[tjdan]

My DS wanted school- and was reading and writing by 4.  Do what they want- if they're interested, they'll keep going.  Find a topic they enjoy, and use it- read it, map it, draw it, use it for counting and basic math- everything.  We read, drew, mapped, and counted more dinosaurs than I can even say.  But he kept it up and is now way ahead.  And I still get the occasional "but he's already so far ahead..." comments (even from family) now in late elementary school.  What am I supposed to do, tell him to stare at the wall? Sorry- the kid still considers most learning fun (OK, he doesn't enjoy when I make him write neatly...) and just wants to keep going.  And is proud of being several years ahead in math for example- he wants to keep learning more and asks for harder problems.  So just do what they want- teach them and enjoy it.  Just be prepared to do 8th-9th grade schoolwork in 4th grade someday!

[Arcadia]

I got the same attitude when I tried to talk to some mums at church. One of them was good, a 'work at whatever level currently challenges your child' type. But the others just frowned and made a few comments to the tune of 'well, they're already ahead, so if they don't immediately get the concept just back off, they don't need to get it yet'.

...

People are fine with a 6 year old having a meltdown over handwriting and telling them to just keep practising, but when I try to find help for my 4yo struggling with handwriting, I'm told to just leave it another year, even though the problems are identical and the child WANTS to write.

...

We need a 'people who do formal early learning' forum, and ban everyone who says 'just let them play'.

It is hard for people in real life to answer any question without being misconstrued. Sometimes I am too lazy to guess what would be the PC/polite answer and just don't reply.

 

Even a pediatrician would tell parents to wait it out if a 4 year old has problems writing. It is a physical milestone thing that has nothing to do with intellect. A 6 year old who has a hard time with pencil grip or with writing in general would get checked by the pediatrician if the parent mentioned it. My oldest had accommodations while in public school because he was behind same age peers in writing stamina. You could always try with the triangular crayola or the medium size white board markers or use number stamps.

 

There are plenty of 'people who do formal early learning' forums hosted in Asia. Some even discuss how to teach an unborn child so the child has a headstart before he/she is born. Toddlers attend abacus classes. Three year olds are writing in two languages. You won't feel out of place there. My 3 year old niece is writing in two languages and considered "behind".

[abba12]

I'd just written a long reply but the forum ate it and it's gone. I have to go now so I'll reply later but thank you all for the encouragment

[StartingOver]

Follow their lead. Most  kids will level out at some point, some never do. Hold on, it could be a very wild ride. Post here anytime. I have had very few negative responses in here. I hardly ever post anywhere else. I tell folks I am not pushing mine, they are pulling me along kicking and screaming. ;-)

[JulieA97]

I could have written most of your post. My 4 year old goes to a great half day preschool program that we love. I left the parent/teacher conference today very frustrated that they didn't tell me anything other than he is way above. Yes, I know that. Please tell me how you are supporting his learning. Or is he just expected to go the entire year with nothing but review of things he has known since he was 2? Its a play based preschool but they told me at the start of the year they would individualize things for him. Apparently thats just if you are behind or slightly above. And then when I mentioned it to someone they said well he is ahead, if there is a problem they will tell you. So I am not supposed to ask unless they tell me he is behind? They did talk about how he gets frustrated with the other kids and gets bossy and tries to help. If its bothering them maybe give him something more challenging than this is what a B sounds like.

I don't have any advice, just sympathy. I don't push him, he brings his "school" books to me. If he gets frustrated we stop. I get tired of hearing he is so young, let him play! I love your idea of a formal early learning section! :)

[abba12]

Thank you all for your encouragement. Handwriting wasn't the actual issue I was posting about (though that is hard slog, she's writing words on her own for fun so I need to try and get the correct strokes happening, neatness is irrelevant to me right now, just want her to form them correctly so she doesn't gain bad habits)

 

Heigh Ho, that's exactly right, no one would suggest a typical child do work two years below them, it seems to be almost this equalizing thing, people thinking it's 'unfair' that my child is ahead academically, which is ridiculous. 

 

Wapiti, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. During the years I was in public school I was never given harder work, generally I was used as a free teachers aide to the kids with learning disabilities (and frankly, I usually made more progress with them than the teacher did too). It got to the point that if a kid went to the teacher with a question and the teacher was busy marking they'd send the kid to my desk for help. I had already mastered the material for the year so as far as the teachers were concerned I didn't have to do anything, I was basically free to skip math until I hit a grade I didn't know the work for, which is absurd. I hope you can make after-schooling work for your kiddos.

 

JulieA97, we do have a PreK/K section, but it's mostly full of older mums telling everyone to relax and stop doing so much. I'm sorry to hear about your 4yo. If the child is mastering the standard for that grade then that's all they care about, holding him back with a year of not learning anything makes sense in the public school system where putting kids forward a grade is very frowned upon. 

 

The issue I was actually going to post about was tips or hints for helping kids memorize long passages of text. They wanted to try memorizing bible verses after seeing people at church who do, and wanted a decent sized section, they weren't satisfied with a single line and I don't see much point in it myself. I gave them Psalm 23 and, to my surprise they both memorized it in their entirety in about 3 months without even trying. They're asking to do another one now and I was wondering if there's any hints or anything I can do to help make the process easier or quicker for them or anything I should be doing to help. If we're going to do this, I'd like to teach them how to do it well and efficiently. But I don't know if, in this situation, I should be treating them like the 4.5 and just-3 year olds they are, or if I should be treating them like the 5 and 6 year olds they're educationally matching. I'm guessing the methods for helping a 2 or 3 year old memorize would be different to a 6 year old. I just don't know how to go about it. All I do right now is have them repeat what they know so far before bed every night, nothing more. Should I be doing anything more?

[eternallytired]

 

The issue I was actually going to post about was tips or hints for helping kids memorize long passages of text. They wanted to try memorizing bible verses after seeing people at church who do, and wanted a decent sized section, they weren't satisfied with a single line and I don't see much point in it myself. I gave them Psalm 23 and, to my surprise they both memorized it in their entirety in about 3 months without even trying. They're asking to do another one now and I was wondering if there's any hints or anything I can do to help make the process easier or quicker for them or anything I should be doing to help. If we're going to do this, I'd like to teach them how to do it well and efficiently. But I don't know if, in this situation, I should be treating them like the 4.5 and just-3 year olds they are, or if I should be treating them like the 5 and 6 year olds they're educationally matching. I'm guessing the methods for helping a 2 or 3 year old memorize would be different to a 6 year old. I just don't know how to go about it. All I do right now is have them repeat what they know so far before bed every night, nothing more. Should I be doing anything more?

 

I never considered whether people would consider our Bible memory age-appropriate.  I started them on the Catechism for Young Children (just the early questions) at 1 and 2 and headed for longer Bible passages by the time they were 2.5 and nearly 4.  We started with Psalm 100 one November and moved on to Luke 2 in December.  One of the best ways I found to help them learn passages quickly was to put motions to each phrase.  You have to find a nice balance--too few motions and they can't remember all the words, too many motions and they interrupt the flow of what you say.  I start with one line or verse and keep adding as we master it.  (If you do too much at once, it's a bit overwhelming.)  To be honest, it's the same technique I use now that my oldest is nearly 7.  Putting motions to the words and learning a piece at a time seem like pretty good strategies--even for me!

 

We've cycled through the same passages each year to make sure they're really ingrained, and it's amazing how well they remember and how delighted they are with themselves.  Each year I've had to add more and more material to our rotation because they remember past stuff (and thus don't need weeks of learning) and they pick up new stuff more easily.  I've been meaning to compile a list of all we've memorized just to show them...I should really do that...

 

As far as whether you're pushing or not, I'd agree that you'll know, even if you try to convince yourself otherwise.  Learning is fun when you're not pushing too hard--they're eager and you're enjoying their progress.  When it starts getting frustrating--not just every once in a while but consistently--then you need to take a look at what you're doing and evaluate your expectations and methods.  (This is specifically for young ones, since there is a time and place where a child needs to push through something even if it's not fun or easy; preschool is not that time or place.)

[kbutton]

The issue I was actually going to post about was tips or hints for helping kids memorize long passages of text. They wanted to try memorizing bible verses after seeing people at church who do, and wanted a decent sized section, they weren't satisfied with a single line and I don't see much point in it myself. I gave them Psalm 23 and, to my surprise they both memorized it in their entirety in about 3 months without even trying. They're asking to do another one now and I was wondering if there's any hints or anything I can do to help make the process easier or quicker for them or anything I should be doing to help. If we're going to do this, I'd like to teach them how to do it well and efficiently. But I don't know if, in this situation, I should be treating them like the 4.5 and just-3 year olds they are, or if I should be treating them like the 5 and 6 year olds they're educationally matching. I'm guessing the methods for helping a 2 or 3 year old memorize would be different to a 6 year old. I just don't know how to go about it. All I do right now is have them repeat what they know so far before bed every night, nothing more. Should I be doing anything more?

 

Memorize away. My kids love to memorize--songs, verses, whatever. We just repeat until they know it. My older son would listen to recorded verses over and over sometimes because he could do that on his own and it made him feel accomplished. My younger one doesn't do as well with that because he has CAPD and the words go by too fast. Both of my kids want to hear the whole passage, not pieces at a time. I'm not sure why, but they do. One fun way to work on a verse if you want something specific is to put the words on cards and turn them over, or write on a whiteboard, and erase a word or two each time through the passage. Leave a mark so that you know where the missing words should be. If you like what you are doing, I think it's fine to continue that way. I taught Kindergarten Sunday School once, and we had the kids "read" from the scroll to the class. Most weren't reading, but we would cue them with the words, and they would say them to the class in short phrases. The kids would say the words back. Once one child read the whole verse, it was someone else's turn to read and teach the verse to the classmates. They loved it.

 

There are also verses set to music. Our family likes these particular albums: http://www.seedsfamilyworship.com/ The Power of Encouragement album has a really nice song with a nativity passage if you want to learn something for Christmas--it's the verses where the angels appear to the shepherds.

 

Don't forget fun poems, finger plays, and things with motions in addition to verses. Hymns if you like hymns. I think kids this age love to memorize. Think about how many of them memorize favorite picture books. 

[Have kids -- will travel]

I think I would back off if there were tears at those ages, but by "back off" I mean give them a break and then try something different for a while.

 

For writing (the physical part), maybe encourage more drawing and dot-to-dots, and focus on the process rather than the product.  It's not important for writing to be neat at that age, regardless of IQ.

 

Great advice here. This is what I did with my oldest at 3 and 4. Tears meant a new approach, circling back to the problem area.

 

Handwriting will come with age as well. Mazes were for a time the only fine motor work he enjoyed. Just before turning 5, everything really clicked, and he can write a proper sentence without balking.

 

The pushy parents I've seen are the ones that need confirmation for how bright their child is. If you find yourself wanting your child to reach a level or perform in a certain way, instead of following the child's wishes and ability, you may need to consider your motivations. 

[Slache]

We like the montessori alphabet book, salt trays and white boards. We had the same concerns about letter formation.

[SKL]

Regarding memory work, my kids as preschoolers used to memorize musicals by hearing the music in the car etc.  (It was not an assignment, just fun for them.)  They would periodically ask for clarification of meaning, which helped them get the words right.  They would act out the scenes with their dolls for fun.  :)

 

They started doing regular memory work for school at age 5.  So that it wasn't just parroting, I would tell them some context for the passages, e.g., who wrote that and what was going on historically at the time.  I'd read the passage, explain new vocabulary, and have them read the selection 3 times on their own.  For longer or more complex passages, I'd point out patterns, such as a series of prepositional phrases.  I'd say, e.g., "remember, the first sentence starts with He, the second one starts with They, the third one starts with He again.  He, They, He."  (Often a hint re the first word is enough to remind them what the whole sentence says.)  Or I'd point out parallel structures such as [making this up] "sing joyfully, pray faithfully, give generously."  For extra difficult passages, I would set them to a tune. We'd practice them together and separately as many times as necessary.  As they get older, the memorizing gets easier, though some passages are still challenging.

[Tumbatoo]

I don't have any new advice to add, but I am right there with you! My dd did K at 3, first at 4, and is now doing second at 5.5. I managed to buy a little time in the middle there by going sideways. I just don't tell anyone. She still goes to the K class at church where her friends are. My 2 yr old is already working at least a year ahead in the developmental milestones and well into preK academics on his own. He's more vocal than his sister, so I'm sure we'll get into some sticky situations with him!

[purpleowl]

I read the entire passage with the kids at least once per school day. After a couple days, I start asking if they want to start at the beginning on their own and see how far they can go. They memorize passages very quickly. I think reading it together, where I try to vary my inflection throughout the passage but the same way each time, is helpful to them.

 

(I wrote this in present tense, but I have really slacked off when it comes to Scripture memorization with the kids lately...I should get back on track!)

[Dmmetler]

Well, when my DD was 3-4, she'd come home from Sunday School each session with a CD of catechism, scripture sent to music, and hymns. We'd listen in the car and she'd memorize within a week or so. It wasn't until she was about 6 that I realized that she wasn't supposed to actually memorize that stuff until elementary school, because she would come home with memory work assignments that she'd learned three years prior.

 

We do a lot of memory work in the car. Until about age 8 (when we started doing Great Courses instead), she had a couple of hours of memory work from various sources on my iPad for car listening while driving. Some from Commercial sources, some where I just recorded myself. I'd change it every couple of months when I got sick of it, by which time she had it memorized.

 

I actually find it funny that memory work would be something questioned-because I don't know a preschooler who doesn't have large amounts of something memorized, whether it be pop music, TV dialogue, or whatever. If a kid can memorize their "Elmo Sings the ABCs" DVD, they can memorize scripture!

[abba12]

I just feel like crying tonight. It's probably part hormones, part overtiredness. But I'm just so overwhelmed at everything. It probably doesn't help that I read the asynchronous child fatigue thread, and was reminded that that part doesn't get better lol. I feel like I can't raise my eldest. She's too much like me. She's only a year ahead, I'm also fairly sure she's an aspie just like me. She might not be ready for percentages just yet, but I can see ourselves there. It feels like the meltdowns because her biscuit (cookie) broke, or because she wrote a letter backwards/upside down and realized it after she wrote it, will never end. Maybe my expectations are out, but by 5 shouldn't we be past multiple-times-a-day-crying-meltdowns/tantrums over nothing? I don't remember kids other than me bursting into tears at Kindergarten when I was 5. I was mildly 2e, so I feel like I should be able to do this. But my past was.... interesting, and full of abuse. It was effective in a way, no one but a psychologist could tell I have Aspergers anymore, by outward appearance I am entirely 'normal'. But I would never, ever do to my children what was done to me to bring about that result. I feel like I'm starting out on bad footing because of it. Instead of being clueless and starting from scratch, I am actively having to identify and move away from bad ideas and expectations since, like anyone, I default to what I was raised to know, even when I entirely reject it. 

 

I don't even know what I'm saying, and this probably belongs on the learning issues board, I don't know. I'm just having a bit of a pity party and crying into my wine tonight. It's been a long month with family issues, there's only 5 weeks left of our school year, I'm probably just burnt out. I've made such a big deal of Christmas holidays that I'm hoping the girls will accept 'only' doing reading and math over December, I'll probably feel better when I have some new books and fresh new plans for the kids to completely not follow lol. 

 

 

I don't have any new advice to add, but I am right there with you! My dd did K at 3, first at 4, and is now doing second at 5.5. I managed to buy a little time in the middle there by going sideways. I just don't tell anyone. She still goes to the K class at church where her friends are. My 2 yr old is already working at least a year ahead in the developmental milestones and well into preK academics on his own. He's more vocal than his sister, so I'm sure we'll get into some sticky situations with him!

 

Sounds like the route I expect my 3yo to take at the rate she's going. Good luck! At least I'm not alone. I read a lot about the typical kids and a lot about the profoundly gifted kids, but don't read much from the 'grade or two ahead' types. It has it's own challenges. 

 

 

I actually find it funny that memory work would be something questioned-because I don't know a preschooler who doesn't have large amounts of something memorized, whether it be pop music, TV dialogue, or whatever. If a kid can memorize their "Elmo Sings the ABCs" DVD, they can memorize scripture!

 

I think it's a social acceptability thing. A child learning their ABCs and loving sesame street is totally ok and obviously entirely child-led. It's acceptable. It's also something which is likely to 'just happen'

Scripture is, to many people, boring and over a childs head. Few children show an interest completely independent of their parents. So it's seen as something pushed on the child, or something the child is doing to please the parents. A child that age can't usually sit and read themselves scripture and memorize it independently, so it must be being taught or facilitated in some way (like putting audio recordings of it specifically on the tablet) , so it didn't 'just happen', it was taught, and how dare you teach something boring to a child that age. 

 

Or maybe I'm just cynical. 

[Dmmetler]

Yeah...like most kids choose to turn on the DVD player and put on a DVD when they're in their high chair :).

 

The fact is, it's just as adult led and as much formal teaching as anything else. It's just acceptable. I also find it humorous that it's perfectly acceptable for a younger DC to pick up Latin chants when an older DC is doing it (or, really, anything), but if your preschooler WANTS to learn Latin (or, in our case, Hebrew or Greek) you're a high-pressure tiger mom.

 

Of course, then you get the moms like the one on DD's Cheer team who bragged that her 5 and 8 yr olds were doing "high school biology". Which actually meant that they were listening to lyrical life science, which she'd bought (and I'd suggested) for her very dyslexic 10th grader, who needed to get enough of the basic bio terms down to pass the end of course exam, and knew some of the songs. Not Helping!!

[SKL]

I embrace the tiger mom parts of me, just like I embrace my white hair.  If it's working for me and my kids for now, why do I care that others do things differently?  Is it possible they are thinking I'm judging them?  Don't worry, we just travel to our own drumbeat over here.

 

I have two kids whose ages are 3 months apart.  I have "pushed" the kid with learning difficulties, and that is generally accepted.  I don't "push" the advanced kid (mainly because she resists all of my suggestions), but if I did, why should that be viewed differently?  It shouldn't.  (Well, actually I do push my bookish kid into sports, which is her weak area.  And some people think that's terrible too.  And I don't care.)

[Arcadia]

I actually find it funny that memory work would be something questioned-because I don't know a preschooler who doesn't have large amounts of something memorized, whether it be pop music, TV dialogue, or whatever. If a kid can memorize their "Elmo Sings the ABCs" DVD, they can memorize scripture!

:iagree:

[pkbab5]

I have one of those kids too.  And if you are here doubting yourself and constantly analyzing whether you are pushing too hard... then you are doing it just right.  They need to be pushed at a level that is developmentally appropriate for their academic skills, but pushed in a way that is developmentally appropriate for their maturity and age.  If that makes any sense at all lol.  Let's see if I can say it a different way... think of what you are traditionally supposed to teach someone your child's age, and what the appropriate way to "push" that is.  Like how you would "push" to learn colors and shapes, or please and thank you, or how to wash your hands.  Now take that same kind of "pushing", and apply it to handwriting, or 2nd grade math, or whatever it is that is right at that level of not too hard and not too easy.

 

I read this article called "The Battle Hum of the Tigger Mum" (http://shrinkgrowskids.com/2014/04/25/the-battle-hum-of-the-tigger-mum/) that was just fantastic that I think you will enjoy.  After reading the Tiger Mom book and worrying over whether I was "too pushy", this article gave me the ability to take ownership of the fact that I WAS pushing my daughter, but in a much healthier way than in the Tiger Mom book, and in a way that was keeping her challenged and stimulated while also letting her still be a kid.

 

I liked PP's ideas for memory work with a younger child.  I also like setting the words to a tune.  Or use your phone to video your child reading the passage out loud from the book, and then let your child watch it and try to recite along with it from memory.

[abba12]

I have one of those kids too.  And if you are here doubting yourself and constantly analyzing whether you are pushing too hard... then you are doing it just right.  They need to be pushed at a level that is developmentally appropriate for their academic skills, but pushed in a way that is developmentally appropriate for their maturity and age.  If that makes any sense at all lol.  Let's see if I can say it a different way... think of what you are traditionally supposed to teach someone your child's age, and what the appropriate way to "push" that is.  Like how you would "push" to learn colors and shapes, or please and thank you, or how to wash your hands.  Now take that same kind of "pushing", and apply it to handwriting, or 2nd grade math, or whatever it is that is right at that level of not too hard and not too easy.

 

I love that, thank you. I hadn't thought of it that way at all, and I think that's where I was struggling so much, knowing how to balance the amount of 'pushing'. That makes total sense and gives me a guideline. 

 

dmnetler, that is SO true about the latin. It's only ok for the little one to be doing it if they have an older sibling doing it and learn it by accident. 

 

Feeling a bit better today. Going to sit down and work out a vague plan for them for next year, which I've been putting off for weeks despite needing to order curriculum before Christmas. Hopefully a plan will make me feel a little more secure, even if they do break it. It helps to know the vague direction we're headed lol. 

[kbutton]

I just feel like crying tonight. It's probably part hormones, part overtiredness. But I'm just so overwhelmed at everything. It probably doesn't help that I read the asynchronous child fatigue thread, and was reminded that that part doesn't get better lol. I feel like I can't raise my eldest. She's too much like me. She's only a year ahead, I'm also fairly sure she's an aspie just like me. She might not be ready for percentages just yet, but I can see ourselves there. It feels like the meltdowns because her biscuit (cookie) broke, or because she wrote a letter backwards/upside down and realized it after she wrote it, will never end. Maybe my expectations are out, but by 5 shouldn't we be past multiple-times-a-day-crying-meltdowns/tantrums over nothing? I don't remember kids other than me bursting into tears at Kindergarten when I was 5. I was mildly 2e, so I feel like I should be able to do this. But my past was.... interesting, and full of abuse. It was effective in a way, no one but a psychologist could tell I have Aspergers anymore, by outward appearance I am entirely 'normal'. But I would never, ever do to my children what was done to me to bring about that result. I feel like I'm starting out on bad footing because of it. Instead of being clueless and starting from scratch, I am actively having to identify and move away from bad ideas and expectations since, like anyone, I default to what I was raised to know, even when I entirely reject it. 

 

I don't even know what I'm saying, and this probably belongs on the learning issues board, I don't know. I'm just having a bit of a pity party and crying into my wine tonight. It's been a long month with family issues, there's only 5 weeks left of our school year, I'm probably just burnt out. I've made such a big deal of Christmas holidays that I'm hoping the girls will accept 'only' doing reading and math over December, I'll probably feel better when I have some new books and fresh new plans for the kids to completely not follow lol. 

 

I don't want to contribute to the idea that things don't ever get better, but I would very much like to say that no, she might not be past multiple meltdowns at this age if she has ASD and is 2e. Let yourself off the hook in that regard.

 

You might go ahead and post on the LC board--there are a fair amount of us who have 2e Aspie/ASD/PDD-NOS kids over there. I remember that feeling of dread that you have to find something to challenge that little mind that doesn't simultaneously bring on tantrums and tears. This is a younger child memory, but I remember when my ASD son (not diagnosed until age 9) was about a year old. He decided that he was going to balance an empty water bottle on it's lid. I believe we had 2-3 days of full on meltdowns and frustration before he achieved his goal. He kept at it most of each day. I tried to find something else for him to do, but he refused to be distracted and was even more upset if I tried to take the bottle away. I took a picture of that stupid bottle. He can still be like that, but we have learned better coping skills. You can learn ways to help your daughter cope that aren't going to damage either of you, and I know the LC board would love to encourage you in that way.  :grouphug:

[ikuradesuka]

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Edited November 7, 2019 by ikuradesuka
Privacy

[MrSmith]

I just knew, by the end of it, that I was going to end up with a bunch of 'they're little, let them play' and 'that isn't developmentally appropriate'.

 

They just don't get it.

 

I used to care a lot about what is 'developmentally appropriate'.  Then, I had a weird though:

A person who has ever only had the one arm cannot grasp what is the utility of a second arm (or third for that matter).  That is to say, 'developmentally appropriate' to them means only to have a single arm.  Thus, it is true as you say - they just don't get it.  And they never will - that second arm will not grow, no matter the amount of waiting.

 

Since your children clearly have two arms, it is pointless and unnecessary to fret over what one-armed people might say.

[Spring Flower]

BTDT. The struggle is real. Good news, sounds like you are doing just fine. As they get a little older you'll see that you have caused no damage. My kids finally came out of their shells when they learned to read at age 3. It made the world come alive for them. It was awesome for me to see that transformation. Why would I take that away from them?

 

[The Governess]

I'm right there with you, with a kid that is working ahead a couple grade levels and emotional maturity that doesn't quite match. The early years were tough - she stopped reading in public because people would comment on the reading level she was at, etc. Like you, I had moms telling me I should only be spending 30 min a day with her, that she needed to be a kid...that got better when she was in second/third grade. Now in middle school, as she is starting to get ready for high school level work in some areas, it seems to be getting harder again. I'm finding a real need to find her more academic social opportunities and there's just not much out there for this age group. Sometimes it can be pretty lonely being a gifted kid, or the mom of one. I don't know any moms who are as concerned about this stuff as I am. They just do what everyone else is doing, and seem so content with that. Sometimes I wish I could do that too.

[Lecka]

She sounds like she has a high need for structure, too, maybe.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Some people's kids do not need much structure at all, and then those "set them free" pieces of advice make a lot of sense.  For a child who craves structure, that is just not the best advice. 

 

If she is happier with a bit of structure and schedule, instead of "let her figure out what she wants to do and do it on her own," but she is happy to be independent within her structure, I think that is a great thing to do.

 

Anyway, that is my take on it. 

 

You do not have to be rigid or pushy, to provide a structure for her.  They are not the same thing.  I think structure can get a bad rap for that reason, but it is really separate issues imo. 

 

I think you have gotten some great suggestions for structured, independent activities. 

 

You can even schedule in "free play" or "play with certain toys (maybe educational toys that would be more interesting to her)."  Those are options.  Even free play-type stuff can be included in a structure. 

 

[ikuradesuka]

She sounds like she has a high need for structure, too, maybe.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Some people's kids do not need much structure at all, and then those "set them free" pieces of advice make a lot of sense.  For a child who craves structure, that is just not the best advice. 

 

If she is happier with a bit of structure and schedule, instead of "let her figure out what she wants to do and do it on her own," but she is happy to be independent within her structure, I think that is a great thing to do.

 

Anyway, that is my take on it. 

 

You do not have to be rigid or pushy, to provide a structure for her.  They are not the same thing.  I think structure can get a bad rap for that reason, but it is really separate issues imo. 

 

I think you have gotten some great suggestions for structured, independent activities. 

 

You can even schedule in "free play" or "play with certain toys (maybe educational toys that would be more interesting to her)."  Those are options.  Even free play-type stuff can be included in a structure. 

Yes!  Dd1 did really great with, "You have to x for 30 minutes."  She could do whatever with the things I gave her, but she had to sit there and do something on her own.  

[elizahelen]

ikuradesuka, what did you do to get your child reading?

 

abba12, with the 5 and 3 year old, would trying some skill based work be interesting? For instance: learning basic knots, soap carving, collage making.

[ikuradesuka]

I'm a "hit the nail with every hammer in the garage sort", so I've tried a lot of things.  I just make sure to make reading easy and worthwhile.  Probably one of the most effective things has been to read a book to them, and give them a word to read.  When we get to the word, I pause and they read it.  Next time through, I give them another word, etc.  Then, just read, a lot.  It's sort of like "on the job training."  

 

They have also enjoyed dictating short letters to friends.  They tell me what to write, then they copy it.

 

I have them write shopping lists for me, and then ask them questions at the store that they can only figure out by reading the boxes.  Starting first with easier things like numbers on the box, and then moving on to other things, like, can you find the box that says "big"?  I'm really nonchalant about the whole thing.  "Hey, can you find the box that says "big", while I get the ketchup?  Thanks!"  I just sort of assume they can, and then they do, too.

 

I also show them the words for things they have memorized (like a Psalm, or something else lengthy
) so that they can see they already know them.

 

I heard once that children learn to read in the same way they learn to speak.  The written word is simply language through a visual pathway instead of aural.  The problem is that we have made the written word inaccessible to them by making it too small, and less important.  When we talk to a baby, we emphasize words, we speak in a higher voice, and we quickly show them that talking is a good thing.  So, make the print bigger, and the usage necessary.  Chose words that they want to know.  They can learn through phonics in small steps, or you can just tell them the words they REALLY want to know, and then point out the phonics now and then as necessary.   I'm not sure if that's all true or not, but, it's been a pretty useful working theory.  

 

[Kinspired]

There are also verses set to music. Our family likes these particular albums: http://www.seedsfamilyworship.com/ The Power of Encouragement album has a really nice song with a nativity passage if you want to learn something for Christmas--it's the verses where the angels appear to the shepherds.

Thank you for this recommendation! I'm happy to see Amazon has several of them on Prime Music!

[wintermom]

I'm all for encouraging learning at all ages. Keep in mind, though, that learning for 3 and 4 year olds is through play. There are all sorts of ways to incorporate the concept of play in reading, writing, math, science, history, etc. In addition, as enthusiastic as young, eager children are to learn, it's the job of the parent/teacher to make sure their activities are developmentally appropriate - physically and mentally.  This doesn't mean you have to wait until the child is older to learn to write, it means that there are all sorts of nifty ways to write that don't tire out their small muscles (e.g., write with shaving cream on a cookie sheet, write in sand or rice, write on the beach, etc.). Keep activities short. It's way better to have them begging for more than in tears because they are tired or hungry.

 

So go have fun exploring the world with your little ones. There are tons of amazing resources for young learners. 

[EmilyGF]

You might find some encouragement by becoming involved in a Suzuki program. Check them out - my experience is that Suzuki parents stress learning at a young age, and it might provide a good peer group.

 

Emily

[BooksandBoys]

When my oldest was the age of yours, he memorized the entirety of "Oh, Captain, My Captain" because it was about Abraham Lincoln, a personal hero of his at the time. It took him less than a month. My method was to print the poem out in real large type and read it with him many times a day. Later, I started playing games like dropping words. I also posted the poem on the wall near our table just so I would remember to review it with him. He was obsessed with memorizing poetry that year and learned a ton. Our memorization has fallen off in the last three years, so I'm trying to bring it back.

 

As to the general topic: you aren't a tiger mom to give them what they want and need. Tiger is telling your four year-old that they have to do their three hours of work before they can play and enforcing that through the tears. It's not Tigwr to help a child who wants to learn to write power through some tears of frustration.

 

My kids are ahead in some areas and markedly "behind" in others. I push them hard because they love to learn and they need that challenge. And because my husband and I want our kids to be challenged in school instead of bored out of their minds as we were. My boys also play hard, but they have always played better if they are stretching their minds a bit too.

[madteaparty]

Assuming you were "pushy", there's nothing wrong with it. I've yet to meet an advanced child who doesn't have a "pushy" parent (yes, it's all for kids, but let's be serious here, kids cannot go out and purchase curricula).

DH I guess was "gifted" but with parents who never pushed because they never knew how, being uneducated themselves, and eventually he crashed and burned as well. So in my view, rock the pushing. I have more energy for it in later grades (4th and later) than in preschool or K, and it shows...

[Donna]

You already have a lot of good suggestions.

 

I wanted to reiterate, young kids (especially gifted toddlers/preschoolers) will memorize anything they are exposed to. Most like repetition of favorite songs, TV shows, books, etc…and they memorize them. It is fun for them. My kids memorized every book read to them more than once. Dd memorized numerous songs/pieces including those she sung or was learning/wanted to learn on violin. She had the entire musical Phantom of the Opera memorized at 4yo because it caught her attention and she liked it. She also loved to memorize poetry. I don't think there is anything wrong with having what your child hears every day be Bible verses and having those be what they memorize.

 

I was also going to suggest a Suzuki program for instrument leaning. Oftentimes when learning and memorizing come so easily, learning something that also requires motor learning/practice provides a challenge.

 

My other suggestion, and a life-saver for me when dd was very young, is a small mini recorder. Dd told her stories into the recorder and later she could slowly transcribe them or I would transcribe them for her. It saved a lot of tears and allowed her the ability to tell stories using the vocabulary she had available rather than only those words she could spell and write easily. 

 

With dd, I kept all her "learning" materials, including her violin, on shelves with her toys where she could reach them and whenever she brought something out, we sat down to "play." She learned most of early elementary math through play with manipulatives and through play figured out concepts like multiplication and division on her own though she didn't know what they were called; reading by being read to, memorizing books, playing with magnetic and bathtub letters; writing with materials like white boards, sand in a shallow container, mazes, etc…; science by exploring outside, helping plant our garden, observation, small experiments, and books from the library; and history through stories. She helped me cut coupons to work on scissor skills. She learned to do small crafts like sewing with big needles, origami, etc… 

[908874]

I've posted a few times on these boards, but mostly I have been a silent observer. I am not sure we belong in this particular forum as I feel DS is only slightly ahead, but even that seems to be received with mixed answers elsewhere. I found this thread by searching for almost the exact question you asked above.

 

I recently switched DS (after following suggestions from here and downloading a sample) to MM1 from Saxon1 and we had been doing about 3 pages a day when I started finding threads that were appalled at having slightly older kids than my own do that many worksheets per day. I started worrying that I was pushing DS too hard (even though he does the worksheets fine). I had posted a question in the K-8 and did not write his age because I didn't want to hear more: "let him play" (he plays!). Of course, someone asked how old he was... 

 

Just wanted to say that you are not alone in that feeling. I am constantly wondering if I am doing too much. Or too little. The doubts are always there for me too. I imagine that no matter what you do, someone somewhere will find it either lacking or too pushy. Reading this thread has been enlightening for me too. So thank you.

 

[abba12]

I've posted a few times on these boards, but mostly I have been a silent observer. I am not sure we belong in this particular forum as I feel DS is only slightly ahead, but even that seems to be received with mixed answers elsewhere. I found this thread by searching for almost the exact question you asked above.

 

I recently switched DS (after following suggestions from here and downloading a sample) to MM1 from Saxon1 and we had been doing about 3 pages a day when I started finding threads that were appalled at having slightly older kids than my own do that many worksheets per day. I started worrying that I was pushing DS too hard (even though he does the worksheets fine). I had posted a question in the K-8 and did not write his age because I didn't want to hear more: "let him play" (he plays!). Of course, someone asked how old he was... 

 

Just wanted to say that you are not alone in that feeling. I am constantly wondering if I am doing too much. Or too little. The doubts are always there for me too. I imagine that no matter what you do, someone somewhere will find it either lacking or too pushy. Reading this thread has been enlightening for me too. So thank you.

 

I learned to ignore the comments on math early on. You'll find families on here who are happy to be able to knock out math in 15 minutes so they can move on, and choose to use the least intense programs so that math gets done easily, and others who require an hour of math and use multiple programs. For me personally, even if my kids were totally average or a little behind I would expect a math work output (at their appropriate level of difficulty) of twice as much as the people criticizing you do. 

 

A lot of it is priorities though. We don't even do formal history, while some of those families are spending an hour a day on SOTW. I suppose neither is 'right', we just prioritize different things. For me, math, logic, reading and writing are all that matter right now. For them, a broad and balanced education including languages, history, science and nature are vital. Don't be afraid to have different goals. 

 

I just stress about getting to those goals too early! lol. 

 

Things are going smoother here. Thank you all for your help. I'm getting into a groove accepting where the kids are at, and with my eldest reaching K/Prep age in Janurary that will take some of the pressure off. Younger is 'allowed' to learn now her older sister is old enough, because obviously it's just happening by osmosis, and now I know when I hit an educational issue I am able to come in here and ask questions even though they're 'only' a grade or two ahead at a young age.