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I have a question.
 I know the book mentions, repeatedly, that the zones aren't negative/positive. I taught that.

 

Here's the thing....red...isn't it always fight/flight/out of control of self to some measure? Appropriate for a fire? My son quickly escalates to red. He doesn't stay long, if it all, in yellow. Even good feelings are quickly into a dysregulated, impulsive, out of control sort of excitement. I looked at my wall. Elated looks like the one positive in red. And the angry ones..yes, some situations call for that...but I want both of my kids to have self control even when angry and upset.

 

Can you clarify/help me understand?

 

And...maybe this is partly why we failed at zones!

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I have a question.

 I know the book mentions, repeatedly, that the zones aren't negative/positive. I taught that.

 

Here's the thing....red...isn't it always fight/flight/out of control of self to some measure? Appropriate for a fire? My son quickly escalates to red. He doesn't stay long, if it all, in yellow. Even good feelings are quickly into a dysregulated, impulsive, out of control sort of excitement. I looked at my wall. Elated looks like the one positive in red. And the angry ones..yes, some situations call for that...but I want both of my kids to have self control even when angry and upset.

 

Can you clarify/help me understand?

 

And...maybe this is partly why we failed at zones!

She didn't spend a lot of time going into nitty gritties like this zone is these emotions.  She has a whole advanced workshop.  Her primary market is school OTs, and I think a school OT would look at your situation and see more tools.  Like I'm listening to what you've said and thinking about my ds (who is *extremely* impulsive), and I'm thinking ok, so they're so impulsive that it's just like BOOM there.  So the OT might do more OT things overall to slow that down, not so much just relying on cognitive, kwim?  I know my ds' reactively is down dramatically with our OT interventions.  

 

So I think you can't just look at it and say Zones is the solution or failure, kwim?  Zones is a methodology, but you still have to be getting the kid into a place, overall, where he can function.  She talked about that, about meeting those basic needs.

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I have a question.

I know the book mentions, repeatedly, that the zones aren't negative/positive. I taught that.

 

Here's the thing....red...isn't it always fight/flight/out of control of self to some measure? Appropriate for a fire? My son quickly escalates to red. He doesn't stay long, if it all, in yellow. Even good feelings are quickly into a dysregulated, impulsive, out of control sort of excitement. I looked at my wall. Elated looks like the one positive in red. And the angry ones..yes, some situations call for that...but I want both of my kids to have self control even when angry and upset.

 

Can you clarify/help me understand?

 

And...maybe this is partly why we failed at zones!

So many things I want to add to this discussion, but thought I would start here! My understanding of the zones, and how we have always used it with ds is that red is a complete loss of control. Of course, it is okay to be in any zone. Thr idea is to not to stay stuck there and to use your tools to get back to green. So it is more about feeling that feeling and knowing you don't have to stay there and that you can get yourself back to green. That knowledge and success with getting back to green by using the tools is what in turn leads you to better control and therefore spending less and less time in red.
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There are also tools for talking about gradations of feelings.  You can connect it to the Zones or not, as you choose.  Kuypers discussed this a bit.  Lakeshore Learning has some color-graded sets for emotions, or you could just make them yourself.  I think the book may have examples.    Shades of Meaning Word Fans - K-Gr.1  So you'd take the words and assign them to blue or green, yellow, and red zones.

 

So Zones has some tools for you with this, but I also think you have to look at this and go really it would help if we could slow that process down, get their bodies in a better position (with more OT, more calming things) so that they weren't actually going over to red so quickly but actually had more yellow.  

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Her primary market is school OTs, and I think a school OT would look at your situation and see more tools.

It is in these environments that I see it as being useful, mostly to the OT or a teacher (teachers appear to be using it also, based on the Amazon reviews). These professions do not allow room for a lot of one on one time, so emotions are lumped into 4 manageable categories and then the child has the preset regulation tools. Then the question is, who will help the process generalize in different settings, and will the child have the appropriate tools to use under the different settings?

 

I also don't view frustration, anger, anxiety, for example, as having to necessarily be negative. If the child is taught to use them in a proactive way, he/she can channel that energy towards something positive. That is what I teach my boys, but that calls for one on one coaching. That's just me though!

 

There's a lot I could say here but I am not trying to deter anyone from using it. Just saying... there are many different ways of approaching this.

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It is in these environments that I see it as being useful, mostly to the OT or a teacher (teachers appear to be using it also, based on the Amazon reviews). These professions do not allow room for a lot of one on one time, so emotions are lumped into 4 manageable categories and then the child has the preset regulation tools. Then the question is, who will help the process generalize in different settings, and will the child have the appropriate tools to use under the different settings?

 

I also don't view frustration, anger, anxiety, for example, as having to necessarily be negative. If the child is taught to use them in a proactive way, he/she can channel that energy towards something positive. That is what I teach my boys, but that calls for one on one coaching. That's just me though!

 

There's a lot I could say here but I am not trying to deter anyone from using it. Just saying... there are many different ways of approaching this.

Just so you know, Kuypers doesn't either.  And yes, they want the approach to be school-wide.  The assumption is this is happening in the classroom with ALL the kids and that the teacher is making the effort to generalize.  They want it woven throughout the day.  

 

As you say, we only have to have solutions that work for our kids.  She actually has woven into Zones approaches for LOTS of situations, ranging from ASD to children from extremely disadvantaged situations to you name it, and the ideas cross ages and cognitive levels.  So it's not ALL necessary for ALL kids.  

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It is in these environments that I see it as being useful, mostly to the OT or a teacher (teachers appear to be using it also, based on the Amazon reviews). These professions do not allow room for a lot of one on one time, so emotions are lumped into 4 manageable categories and then the child has the preset regulation tools. Then the question is, who will help the process generalize in different settings, and will the child have the appropriate tools to use under the different settings?

 

I also don't view frustration, anger, anxiety, for example, as having to necessarily be negative. If the child is taught to use them in a proactive way, he/she can channel that energy towards something positive. That is what I teach my boys, but that calls for one on one coaching. That's just me though!

 

There's a lot I could say here but I am not trying to deter anyone from using it. Just saying... there are many different ways of approaching this.

 

It's not straight emotion coaching--it's teaching a child to recognize what is going on and respond to it. It's recognizing whether that emotion (or level of emotion) is appropriate for the situation. It's moving yourself from a place that isn't helpful for your own functioning and moving to someplace that is better. Not at all the same as simply identifying emotions. The tools are not preset--it's trial and error. The child is offered tools and identifies their own responses to those tools. The facilitator may offer a child a tool to go from yellow to green, and the child may see that it has exactly the opposite effect. Or, the child might go straight from yellow to blue. They discuss this and try other tools. 

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It is in these environments that I see it as being useful, mostly to the OT or a teacher (teachers appear to be using it also, based on the Amazon reviews). These professions do not allow room for a lot of one on one time, so emotions are lumped into 4 manageable categories and then the child has the preset regulation tools. Then the question is, who will help the process generalize in different settings, and will the child have the appropriate tools to use under the different settings?

 

I also don't view frustration, anger, anxiety, for example, as having to necessarily be negative. If the child is taught to use them in a proactive way, he/she can channel that energy towards something positive. That is what I teach my boys, but that calls for one on one coaching. That's just me though!

 

There's a lot I could say here but I am not trying to deter anyone from using it. Just saying... there are many different ways of approaching this.

I am not exactly sure from what you have written here, but are you implying that Zones teaches a some emotions as negative? Because it in no way teaches children that any emotion is negative or to be avoided.

 

Also to say Zones is just about teaching emotions as four convenient categories does not take into account how all of that framework is then used to teach and support theory of mind. She was designing a program for a specific population who really like categorizing things and having a reliable way to look at something that is very abstract for those on the spectrum. I think sometimes people miss that what she teaches is to be faded to more appropriate language once the child has mastered and understands the zones. It is not like you keep going on about green zone etc. Once you have a child who knows what they are and the emotions that go in each one you are fading that framework and replacing is with the usual language. It is the standard breaking down of skills that ABA does.

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It's not straight emotion coaching--it's teaching a child to recognize what is going on and respond to it. It's recognizing whether that emotion (or level of emotion) is appropriate for the situation. It's moving yourself from a place that isn't helpful for your own functioning and moving to someplace that is better. Not at all the same as simply identifying emotions. The tools are not preset--it's trial and error. The child is offered tools and identifies their own responses to those tools. The facilitator may offer a child a tool to go from yellow to green, and the child may see that it has exactly the opposite effect. Or, the child might go straight from yellow to blue. They discuss this and try other tools.

I didn't say it was just for emotion coaching. It is not as personal as one on one coaching like CBT would be for example. I'm all for tailored to the specific child's needs, challenges, passions... know what I mean? It is why we homeschool in our home. And again, like I have said in the past, it really all depends on what we, as parents, are looking for for our own kids, and what we feel will be most useful to them.

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I am not exactly sure from what you have written here, but are you implying that Zones teaches a some emotions as negative? Because it in no way teaches children that any emotion is negative or to be avoided.

 

Also to say Zones is just about teaching emotions as four convenient categories does not take into account how all of that framework is then used to teach and support theory of mind. She was designing a program for a specific population who really like categorizing things and having a reliable way to look at something that is very abstract for those on the spectrum. I think sometimes people miss that what she teaches is to be faded to more appropriate language once the child has mastered and understands the zones. It is not like you keep going on about green zone etc. Once you have a child who knows what they are and the emotions that go in each one you are fading that framework and replacing is with the usual language. It is the standard breaking down of skills that ABA does.

To your first point, nope, that was not what I was implying. My point was in teaching the child to channel these emotions rather than just finding a way to move away from them. By channeling them towards something positive they are also self-regulating.

 

To your second point, again that is not what I was saying. I just didn't elaborate. School kids will have different needs than kids in a homeschool setting, different triggers, etc. I was just saying, there are many other ways, that's all!

 

I guess I should be more careful when expressing my opinions in the future! They seem to get taken out of context.

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To your first point, nope, that was not what I was implying. My point was in teaching the child to channel these emotions rather than just finding a way to move away from them. By channeling them towards something positive they are also self-regulating.

 

To your second point, again that is not what I was saying. I just didn't elaborate. School kids will have different needs than kids in a homeschool setting, different triggers, etc. I was just saying, there are many other ways, that's all!

 

I guess I should be more careful when expressing my opinions in the future! They seem to get taken out of context.

That is why I was asking on the first point, I was just looking to clarify.

 

I was not intending to take anything out of context. I just did not get what you said here re the second point from your previous post. Ă°Å¸Ëœâ‚¬

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Jennifer, apologies, the last comment was not specifically about you. It just feels like I always have to clarify what I am trying to say, which is why I cut back on posting. I have two on the spectrum, which I deal with on my own, besides homeschooling them. I don't always have the time to elaborate or clarify.

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I didn't say it was just for emotion coaching. It is not as personal as one on one coaching like CBT would be for example. I'm all for tailored to the specific child's needs, challenges, passions... know what I mean? It is why we homeschool in our home. And again, like I have said in the past, it really all depends on what we, as parents, are looking for for our own kids, and what we feel will be most useful to them.

 

You made the comment that the emotions go into four buckets, which I don't quite agree with. I think Jennifer-72 explained that well. It sounded to me like you were viewing the labeling of emotions and their colors as a black and white process, and I wanted to emphasize that it's not meant to oversimplify emotions or spend a lot of time coaching them. It's more about awareness, I think (I could be wrong on that, but that's what we took from the program). Bodily sensations are part of the mix and part of what is categorized with the zones as well. It's about mapping that to behavior.

 

Zones can be as effective as one on one coaching--it's used one on one in some settings. My son had one on one coaching. His observations and trials of tools were very specific to him. It can be used that way, and it can be used in homeschooling easily. It's okay if you don't care for the method, but I do disagree that it teaches children to avoid certain emotions and such as its goal. Also, there have been other discussions on the board about avoiding meltdowns to keep children in a ready to learn state--you can do that and still teach coping methods for emotions. 

 

I am not trying to be critical of you--you've clearly found ways to work with your kids, but zones is something I've used to do what you are describing is your goal. I may have been able to do something different, but this worked well. It was much easier than anything else we've tried, and it was not easier because it was oversimplified. It was easier because it was effective. It didn't undermine our progress in other areas.

 

I feel like there is a difference between taking things out of context and not understanding something because it didn't include all of the details. I'm sorry I've misunderstood, and my answer is longer to try to reflect what I'm thinking and trying to clarify. It's not really meant as a rebuttal.

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Zones includes CBT thought process and can be done one on one, small group, or with classes.  These are unnecessary distinctions.  What you have going on is a building process, where people coming before have developed theories and Zones and people coming after are BUILDING ON them.  There is no dichotomy and it's not like you have to choose yes CBT, no Zones.  They work together and are compatible, with Zones being a framework for discussion that you plug other methodologies into.  

 

There is a positive red zone emotion (elated) listed in the pictures in the book and there are probably more if you think about it.  Kuyper specifically states she's trying to push away from making moral statements about them or being punitive and moving it to this is where I'm at, this is what I do when I'm there, this is how people feel around me when I'm there, I can make choices to decide to stay there or to move to a different zone.  

 

I think Jen's point about the maturing of the process is interesting.  This workshop was so introductory, she didn't get to any of that.  She does an entire advanced workshop. Jen did your ds do this?  Was it literally like 1-2 years and bam he was there?  And what materials did your providers use to support the theory of mind, perspective taking, and body awareness steps?  Right now I feel like I have lots of programs on websites but nothing narrowed down to yeah, pick this 1 (or these 2), it will accomplish it.  

 

Kbutton mentioned the categorizing.  Right now my ds has challenges sorting things (buttons by color, by shape, etc.), so I assume Kuyper's suggestions to use games to sort the emotions into the zones will be useful.  And yet you're right that the very people who struggle to sort LIKE having that orderliness, with lists and systems and a plan.   :D

 

So Jen, what nuances did they use with your ds?  Like did they tweak things or do things a bit differently or do things that surprised you while implementing Zones?  There's the book with it's 18 lessons, but I think there's probably a lot of things building going on, where practitioners are building on that and expanding points and modifying.  For instance, it totally bugs me that the whole discussion is look at your body or what is someone else thinking, with NO discussion seemingly of non-verbals (a la RDI).  This totally bugs me, because then you have this splinter skill, like oh yeah my hand does this so that's my clue I'm in X zone (an example she gave in the workshop).  But you're not actually building their overall non-verbal skill, when non-verbal is developmental too!  So yes self-regulation can be considered developmental, but the non-verbals (that it inherently would need to go forward in a complete way) are ALSO developmental.  So what did your practitioners do about that?  A program?  They just picked particular non-verbals and when they had them moved on?  

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It's not straight emotion coaching--it's teaching a child to recognize what is going on and respond to it. It's recognizing whether that emotion (or level of emotion) is appropriate for the situation. It's moving yourself from a place that isn't helpful for your own functioning and moving to someplace that is better. Not at all the same as simply identifying emotions. The tools are not preset--it's trial and error. The child is offered tools and identifies their own responses to those tools. The facilitator may offer a child a tool to go from yellow to green, and the child may see that it has exactly the opposite effect. Or, the child might go straight from yellow to blue. They discuss this and try other tools. 

And just so Cricket can see (since I know kbutton knows this), when they talk about whether your zone and output is appropriate for the situation, they use Michelle Garcia Winner's Social Thinking terminology like expected/unexpected.  That's where Zones is actually more of a framework, because she WANTS you to plug all the other methods, ideas, and theories into it.  So we have worksheets in the book showing how to analyze these things and help the student see the connections.  

 

Lecka had mentioned expected/unexpected terminology a year ago here on the boards (when I didn't realize it was MGM/ST stuff), and I've found it VERY helpful with ds.  It's really more of that non-judgmental, that we're not saying you were bad, just that it was unexpected.  And on the flip side, it empowers me to explain this is what *is* expected when you go in x situation.  

 

But it's not like you have to figure out those connections.  There are worksheets and MGM/ST lessons integrated, so it's all right there.  

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Well it was fascinating. I was sorta outclassed, but at least I wanted to be there. This lady beside me kept texting happy birthday messages and looking at pictures of her grandkids. Just remember that's who your kid's OT could be. I don't have nice words for that.

I sat next to someone like that this morning at a conference. The panel was pretty interesting IMHO (one of the better ones) but this girl spent pretty much the entire time texting, checking social media, etc. But she sure wrote down the code to get her Continuing Education Units :-(

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Kbutton, thank you for your post. And yes, a couple of words I used were not suitable choices and as such, did not convey accurately what I wanted to say. My apologies for that! I was not looking to give the wrong impression or cause misunderstandings.

I am seeing though that those of you that have used it successfully, as you describe, have had it implemented through a therapist. There are those of us that cannot afford therapists though or our local situation does not support us for such services. I view the Zones as something too complex to implement or stick with for a mom that is homeschooling SN Kids (one or more), some with NT kids in the mix as well, and trying to tackle various challenges from the SN kids at the same time. I feel that for our situation it is more complex than it needs to be and was trying to offer some ideas for people on the same boat as I. If someone can implement it successfully, more power to them and I'll be cheering them on. I was just trying to reassure those of us that have more limited options than some of you. Hope I'm explaining myself a bit more adequately this time around.

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Having done the training, I can look through the book now and see that everything she showed us was in the book.  It just wasn't really obvious (at least to me).  It's easier to pick up the book and use it when you've done the training, yes, but what you need is in there.  If someone *wants* to buy the $45 (plus shipping!) book and go at it, they can.  And actually, the reason I did was because I knew I had holes in my understanding (I'm way hack in the way I read books) and I didn't want to be piecing it together through our OT.  She's real nice, but she and I don't think the same, lol.  We can laugh over it.  I just decided it was better if I heard the same things she heard and then we talked about it.  That makes us a good team.  :)

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Kbutton, thank you for your post. And yes, a couple of words I used were not suitable choices and as such, did not convey accurately what I wanted to say. My apologies for that! I was not looking to give the wrong impression or cause misunderstandings.

 

I am seeing though that those of you that have used it successfully, as you describe, have had it implemented through a therapist. There are those of us that cannot afford therapists though or our local situation does not support us for such services. I view the Zones as something too complex to implement or stick with for a mom that is homeschooling SN Kids (one or more), some with NT kids in the mix as well, and trying to tackle various challenges from the SN kids at the same time. I feel that for our situation it is more complex than it needs to be and was trying to offer some ideas for people on the same boat as I. If someone can implement it successfully, more power to them and I'll be cheering them on. I was just trying to reassure those of us that have more limited options than some of you. Hope I'm explaining myself a bit more adequately this time around.

 

Technically, English is not my first language. I only went up to grade 4 here and then my family moved back home. While I am a pretty fluent speaker, that gap has left weaknesses in writing and expression. I did take ESL back home but it is not the same. In any case, my apologies for the confusion.

 

This makes a lot more sense with what you were saying. I would not have caught this, so thank you for clarifying.

 

There are a lot of things I *could* use at home with my kids, but I don't catch the subtleties of how to use them well enough to implement them on my own. If I can see someone demonstrate elements of a program or show me the big picture, that really opens up my options. But to pick up a book and know what to do with it? It really depends on what it's about, and therapy books are not always meant with a parent in mind. I am not sure I'd be able to dedicate the time and energy to figuring out Zones without having seen it. But since I've seen it, this discussion is showing me areas where I could use it more effectively. For instance, I didn't realize it overlapped so much with the Social Thinking program materials--I know exactly what OhElizabeth is referring to in the Zones program, but I didn't know that was overlapping with Social Thinking.

 

It must be difficult to select words and thoughts very carefully and then make sure you've included all that you want to say as well. So many times I think I've written something only to find I've left out one piece of information. Thank you for hanging in there to clarify. 

 

Maybe we should start a spin-off thread about strategies people have used in general that are homegrown or are alternatives to Zones. Even those interested in Zones might not be able to use it right away or may want something that is less of a "system."

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Well I'm back from the workshop! I still need to process.

 

 

 

 

I'm curious how old your dd is? Kuyper uses Zones with younger students than I had anticipated (based on comments here on the board). Also, she envisions a much more pro-active, front-ended instructional process rather than (largely) reactive. So, for instance, she suggested that students do check-in where they label their zones 2X/day and practice their tools 2X/day. They are to practice their tools (for all the states, all the choices), to the point of automaticity, so that when they are in that zone it seems natural to go Oh, I'm in Blue Zone, this is what I do...

 

So I don't think the question is whether Zones can be effective but whether we're actually implementing it the way she intended. She's doing a LOT of teaching with this, daily work, front-ending, making it the language of conversation, woven in throughout the day, with checkins, with practice sessions, with the teacher/parent as co-regulator taking them to the choice board when they see the dc is in that Zone and getting them to make choices...

 

And then, if anyone wonders, yes it was worth it. I'd definitely go back when/if they bring her back for the advanced workshop. Now I'm realizing I need to hit workshops and get materials from Social Thinking. It's weird, but what I learned most in the workshop today was the HOLES I have in my understanding. I can't even do all the steps with him, because I don't yet have the materials and understanding to address those foundational issues (recognizing body language, perspective taking, theory of mind, etc.).

 

Also, she doesn't envision this as quite as linear a process as the materials make it look. She expects people to loop back and envisions scenarios where people might start in a more advanced way and loop back around. She commented that when she started doing this she gave too many tools and didn't teach them to mastery. Now she gives less tools but practices them to get buy-in and just to get to where they're natural to the student. THEN she adds another tool. So with a preschool/young age student like mine, she might only start with 1-2 emotions and 1-3 tools. As the dc becomes proficient in those, then she adds more. She said when you go faster, you end up with a pile of tools but no naturalness to actually USING them, that it's better to have less tools (just one or two) but really use them.

 

Well it was fascinating. I was sorta outclassed, but at least I wanted to be there. This lady beside me kept texting happy birthday messages and looking at pictures of her grandkids. Just remember that's who your kid's OT could be. I don't have nice words for that.

Yes, we were doing a check-in probably three or four times a day. And how you are talking here is exactly what I love about how Zones is really bringing so many pieces together. We used it with ds when he was 5-6. One reason I feel it was so helpful for ds is that we had already done the Alert program with him when he had been in preschool and he had been introduced to the 5 point scale as well as lots of terminology from social thinking. All of which are what Zones is based on. It brought all of that together for ds and help him make so many connections. Have you read Thinking About Me, Thinking About You? You should be able to get it from your library and while it is extremely overwhelming to take that whole book in, you can really the whole picture of the social thinking programs from that book.

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OhE, the cost of the book is of no concern, really. We have spent a substantial amount on books on autism and continue to do so. I just no longer buy into methodologies. Especially ones that take long for me to figure out, and time away from other things important to us, to implement. I have read about methodologies that may have worked wonderfully for one child in the same family but not for the other. One example is Beytien's kids, since you mentioned that you read her book recently. I just don't have the time for that!

 

I seek out books/ resources that give me the tools/ strategies to work on the areas I feel my boys need. I look at the strategies based on what I feel will suit them, while giving them free time to pursue their own interests. I also look for strategies that can blend well with our daily routine. Based on my research, The Zones did not fill that bill for us. This is why I never bought the book.

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AM  --- from before, if you look at samples of Superflex and you don't think to yourself "wow, that is way too abstract, I don't think this would connect right now" then I think you can feel very free to consider Superflex now, even though your daughter is below the recommended age.  The recommended age kind-of includes the idea that some kids are coming to it later.  

 

My 6-year-old daughter could understand Superflex, and if we were targeting those skills, I believe she could benefit from Superflex.  She is at a level where I think she would get it.  

 

My son is not, and he fits more of an adjusted age range (of children who are delayed in some areas) where Superflex is recommended for 3rd and up.  

 

If you think she would be able to talk about it and understand it, then I think you do not need to wait for an age.  If you feel like you would want it when she was older anyway, and you can, you can get it now and do a little and see how it goes and be patient with how you use it.  

 

It is truly something where my son does not have the abstract level for me to do it right now.  But, my daughter is the same age, and she absolutely could.

 

Separately, my son does have one-on-one support at school, so all of his use of any tools or strategies does include one-on-one support and direction.  Even for kids who do not have full-day one-on-one support, I think it is kind-of ridiculous to say that kids do not get any one-on-one support or teaching at a school or in a group setting.  Of course, that can be the case.  But it is a very broad statement to say that kids do not get any one-on-one at school.  

 

I would also say that these programs targeting self-regulation, while it is true that on one hand their aim is to fit a child into public school, they also have an aim to teach children self-regulation skills and to teach them a structure and format that they can take with them into other situations.

 

That is why I attend parent meetings through my school.  Of course it is my job as a parent to follow through with strategies that have been found to benefit my son in other settings, so that he can generalize them.  Of course.  

 

And, my son is not doing 5 Point Scales.  It is not recommended for him.  It is one of the more frequently used programs, but it is not recommended for him right now.  He does do the sensory program and in that they divide the categories as "ready to learn" "overstimulated" "understimulated" "sensory seeking."  They do use the color green for "ready to learn," red for "overstimulated or sensory seeking," and yellow for "understimulated."  

 

My son is learning to identify which set of sensory activities would help him to get to "ready to learn."  But he does it with boardmaker icons (little pictures) of sensory activities associated with a color, and he picks which set of activities he would like to pick from.  So it is a visual thing for him, more than a really "hey lets use a lot of language to talk about this" thing.  They are using this to teach the associated language, but as his language and self-awareness are lower, he is still building up his language level from the use of the visuals, and from the use of another person talking with him about things as they happen.  

 

I have been to the parent night for this program, too, and I do incorporate some at home, though I do not do it just like they do at school, and I think that is a fine choice for us.  I don't think he needs that level of consistency, and I would rather work on some more flexible responses at home, that are also very appropriate.    

 

That is just to share how it is for us as a public school family.   

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Lecka, those categories make sense (understim, overstim, sensory seeking, reading to learn), but then when you correlate them to colors as they do they're not going to match the Zones.  And it's not so much that Zones is some ultimate program, but that frustrated me.  The colors on the 5 point scale are different too.  Actually (to me) they're really complex because they're gradations.  It makes sense why they wouldn't be doing it now.  So does your school do Zones *later*?  And what system/program did the under/over/seeking/reading groupings come from?  Is that ABA or something else?  How do they make the transition from that to Zones?  Is it no big deal and I'm over-thinking?  And how do they handle understimulated?  I don't know, the more I think about that the more complicated it seems, lol.  Like if you're understimulated, then you would start sensory seeking and stimming.  So then it's looking at the energy level (sort of like that how does your engine rev program).

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OhE, if you deleted your post on my account, know that I was not offended. The same demons that are haunting you now, have haunted me. It is common for many parents to go through that stage with a recent diagnosis. Please remember, there is no right or wrong answer to this! We are all trying to do what we feel is best for our children. I do what feels right in my gut and what I feel God is directing me towards. We all live in different situations. The right decision, for me, is the one that works best for our own kids and fits our family. Regardless of what that path may be!

 

God bless!

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Yeah, that's kind of why I deleted, because I didn't want to be *implying* something about someone.  I was just realizing *I* hadn't even thought through those issues clearly and that they were reasonable to ask.  

 

I'll take that even one step further.  Now that he's a little more stable with behavior, I have some breathing room to ponder the social stuff.  Social is the BIGGEST FACTOR in the ASD individual's ability to hold a job.  So literally, this is an issue we cannot afford to fail on.  And yet, there are reasonable questions about what is manipulation, what is good, what is not, what of these new methodologies (as many are new, new, new!) are considering ALL the foundational issues and which are not.  I don't think it's off-track to ask these questions.  

 

And as I thought about it some more, I realized that question of how you teach someone to care about how they're affecting others without losing the ASSET of devil may care (which it can be), that I don't know.

 

Gotta finish my pumpkin muffin baking.

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OhE, a few days ago I finished reading the book A Different Kind of Boy, written by the boy's father Daniel Mont as a memoir. Both parents were deep thinkers on these matters, which is why it quickly became one of my favorite memoirs of a parent with an autistic child that I have read so far. Alex would be in his late twenties now and I could not find anything more recent on him (the father wrote the book when he was in 4th grade), but I did find this article from his senior year.

 

http://silverchips.mbhs.edu/story/5281

 

I won't comment on it because I feel we each get something different out of what we read.

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Okay, my thoughts when I read your comment...I think it's such a fine balance, anything we do to try and teach our kids the "right" way to act risks making them think they're intrinsically wrong in some way for not doing it naturally. I think that's part of the reason it's so important not to label any of their emotions as good or bad, and to make sure they understand that we all make social blunders, we all have angry/sad/frustrated feelings, it's part of being human.

 

The main reason we want to teach emotional regulation is that we know our kids probably don't want to spend much time feeling angry/sad/frustrated, we want them to be able to move on from it when they're ready, and to find ways to do so. In the end it's their choice whether they choose to use those tools, but I'm guessing most kids feel relieved to know they can get themselves back in control from those out of control states. For me, the socialization piece is the same. My daughter loves other kids, she wants friends so badly, but she doesn't know how to go about it, and often acts in ways that are off-putting. For her, at least, she needs to find friendship in order to be a fulfilled human being, and I'm guessing it'll be even more crucial to her life as she gets older. She has so much love for other people in her heart, she truly is just this big bundle of love, but that's not enough. Teaching her these basic interaction skills, to be sensitive to how other people are viewing her and her actions, to be sympathetic and empathetic, is necessary if she's going to get along with others throughout her life.

 

So for me, the crucial piece will be to find a way to teach her without her ever feeling like there's something wrong with her for not picking up these pieces that most kids pick up intrinsically, without being taught. I know it's something I have to keep in mind whenever I'm working with her, never blaming. But I think the ends justify the means.

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AM  --- from before, if you look at samples of Superflex and you don't think to yourself "wow, that is way too abstract, I don't think this would connect right now" then I think you can feel very free to consider Superflex now, even though your daughter is below the recommended age.  The recommended age kind-of includes the idea that some kids are coming to it later.  

 

My 6-year-old daughter could understand Superflex, and if we were targeting those skills, I believe she could benefit from Superflex.  She is at a level where I think she would get it.  

 

My son is not, and he fits more of an adjusted age range (of children who are delayed in some areas) where Superflex is recommended for 3rd and up.  

 

If you think she would be able to talk about it and understand it, then I think you do not need to wait for an age.  If you feel like you would want it when she was older anyway, and you can, you can get it now and do a little and see how it goes and be patient with how you use it.  

 

It is truly something where my son does not have the abstract level for me to do it right now.  But, my daughter is the same age, and she absolutely could.

 

Thanks Lecka, maybe I'll try them then. I read that they recommended you go through the Social Detective book, and reading through that I realized she wasn't quite ready for it yet. But I guess I'll pick up one or two of the Unthinkables books and see if I can work with her at least on some level, then go deeper once she's ready.

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I'll take that even one step further.  Now that he's a little more stable with behavior, I have some breathing room to ponder the social stuff.  Social is the BIGGEST FACTOR in the ASD individual's ability to hold a job.  So literally, this is an issue we cannot afford to fail on.  And yet, there are reasonable questions about what is manipulation, what is good, what is not, what of these new methodologies (as many are new, new, new!) are considering ALL the foundational issues and which are not.  I don't think it's off-track to ask these questions.  

 

And as I thought about it some more, I realized that question of how you teach someone to care about how they're affecting others without losing the ASSET of devil may care (which it can be), that I don't know.

 

The hard part of this is that the requirements will not be the same across the board, and that social skills are not universally practiced in the real world. It's like manners--I've seen people with manners use manners as a way of putting down others. I've seen people without a lot of social graces use courtesy (not rules) to lift others up. I've been in workplaces where there are a lot of unwritten rules and workplaces where people had worked together for so long, all the lines were blurred, and it was more about knowing how far was too far (humor, or what conversations to have with what people). It's also industry-specific. I would never be able to work in the environment my husband works in, and he would probably enjoy some of the environment that I worked in, but he would not be productive in it or feel at home.

 

Even NT people make trade-offs too. 

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OhE, a few days ago I finished reading the book A Different Kind of Boy, written by the boy's father Daniel Mont as a memoir. Both parents were deep thinkers on these matters, which is why it quickly became one of my favorite memoirs of a parent with an autistic child that I have read so far. Alex would be in his late twenties now and I could not find anything more recent on him (the father wrote the book when he was in 4th grade), but I did find this article from his senior year.

 

http://silverchips.mbhs.edu/story/5281

 

I won't comment on it because I feel we each get something different out of what we read.

 

That's so very interesting, Cricket. I think it speaks to what you were saying earlier, that we have to know our children well enough to understand what they'll need in life to feel fulfilled. Many on the spectrum DO want friendship and community, but of course many don't see the point in it. I think social skills on a basic level can useful for their future careers, knowing how to communicate, collaborate and not offend, etc. But beyond that, if they're not interested in forming deeper relationships, teaching them how to relate to others on that level is probably a waste, they can be perfectly happy and fulfilled without it.

 

How early on do you know what they need, though? Is it better to give them the opportunity to learn, and let them decide later whether to use the teaching?

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The hard part of this is that the requirements will not be the same across the board, and that social skills are not universally practiced in the real world. It's like manners--I've seen people with manners use manners as a way of putting down others. I've seen people without a lot of social graces use courtesy (not rules) to lift others up. I've been in workplaces where there are a lot of unwritten rules and workplaces where people had worked together for so long, all the lines were blurred, and it was more about knowing how far was too far (humor, or what conversations to have with what people). It's also industry-specific. I would never be able to work in the environment my husband works in, and he would probably enjoy some of the environment that I worked in, but he would not be productive in it or feel at home.

 

Even NT people make trade-offs too. 

That is a really interesting point.  I'm going to have to chew on that.  It takes a more sophisticated model to prepare someone for that than it does just to get them functional in school.  

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Cricket, that's something that has surprised me.  My ds is (of course) very rule-following and rigid, but he doesn't seem to have any sense of morality, sin, right/wrong about him at all.  I haven't really been effective even at finding a way to bridge that.  It means we can talk about what is expected, but there's never anything MORE to it, motivation.

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I'm a stickler for good manners and I have been teaching them empathy and social skills (to the best of my ability) from a very young age. I teach social skills primarily through literature, biographies, and movies. My oldest has a pretty strong moral compass as I did at his age. And of course he is a kid and will often do the wrong thing as we, as adults, often do as well. We have many discussions and it is a joy to talk to him now, more than when I was trying to teach them through social skills programs. He was not reacting badly but I knew from the look on his face how he was feeling. I had seen that look in the mirror growing up with parents putting so much emphasis on what people think and portraying the "right" image to the world. I follow the same with my youngest but with books and movies appropriate to his age. I have always tried to include books that can offer a lot of discussion.

 

Back home, there is a famous singer of the Romano people whose kids were made fun of in school because of their color. Because of who he is, his reply to his son has been made public. He took his son to a meadow with wild flowers and he said to him, "What do you see?". The boy of course replied, "flowers". He then said to him, "Think of how boring this world would be if all the flowers were made the same color?" (note, I can't remember his exact words but it was along those lines).

 

God has given us a beautiful, colorful, world. It is in these differences that the world is a beautiful more interesting place to live :)

 

:001_wub:

 

I'm going to have to search to find applicable books/movies, because I think learning through stories would work so well for DD. I've tried nonfiction books on emotions, and she just isn't drawn to them at all, doesn't internalize them. I'm also not sure if she has a moral compass as it relates to people other than herself at this point, even though I've tried to teach empathy from a very early age...maybe partly because she's still young, but it does worry me. She won't run to comfort kids who are hurt, can say rude things without getting why they're rude, and even things like donating clothes she's outgrown can upset her.

 

Re: worrying how others perceive her, she's also not there yet. I think she always assumes people will like her, and then she's confused when they don't. After watching her play I'll tell her how well she did with X, Y, Z and also mention one or two areas where I know she's made other kids uncomfortable, and she seems to completely ignore this, it doesn't seem to sink in at all. So I've been kind of at a loss, but I do wonder whether living inside and discussing stories (she's always very sympathetic/empathetic to characters, much more than she is to people IRL) might be a better way of teaching.

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I'll be back later tonight, but to answer your question briefly for now OhE, it wasn't until my oldest was about 8 1/2 before we started seeing signs of the deep thinking he was doing in certain areas. Notice I did not mention my youngest on this! ;) He loves God and wants to please him. I have made sure to teach him that we do what's right, not out of fear of the consequences from God, but out of love and respect for what He has done and continues to do for us.

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Cricket, that's something that has surprised me.  My ds is (of course) very rule-following and rigid, but he doesn't seem to have any sense of morality, sin, right/wrong about him at all.  I haven't really been effective even at finding a way to bridge that.  It means we can talk about what is expected, but there's never anything MORE to it, motivation.

 

I don't think this is atypical in many ways, but I also don't have an answer. It's been talked about a bit in our SN parenting group at church--how to trust that they will "get it" on their own level at some point, and how, even that is in God's hands ultimately. (Though saying that is not to brush off the concern--just to show that others are right there too.)

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Heather, when we had our evals at the ps, the psych asked that very thing, whether my dd had been told.  Now she only has ADHD, but his point was that he sees MANY kids in high school who have not been told.  Apparently it's happening in all kinds of schooling environments, not just homeschool.  And yes, an extremely b&w, rules-based approach to faith feeds into a very b&w nature.  

 

Did you approach the parents and *tell* them the social problems he was having and *ask* them if they knew about these tools?  You've got to remember that Zones is relatively new.  The speech therapy ds receives is new.  These are not things they even had ACCESS to when their ds was 5, 6, 7 or even 10!  It just wasn't there.  There would have been something, but it wasn't as accessible and easy to just plunk down $40 and learn and do it with your kid, kwim?  Now they have that option, but they didn't then.  So we can extend them a lot of grace while also passing on information if they haven't had that information.  They might make a different choice, but it's ok to to bring things up politely.  They literally might not even know.

 

Church culture in the denomination I grew up in is SO skewed toward "everything is sin" that they, well I just am not polite here, but they just short shrift the value of diagnosis and therapy.  And then, intervention for ASD (in that community) is totally geared toward manipulation and compliance, not thinking.  Remember, you've got whole denominations where following the rules (wear this, don't listen to that, say these things, show up at these events) IS the epiphany of religion.  They don't say that, but that's what it is.  So in that system, if your ASD dc is *compliant* then he is happily disabled, the fundamentalist Quasimodo who shows up and is pitiable but at least willing to follow the rules, all they really wanted.  We even have whole books on it, endorsed by Ted Tripp, in exactly that vein.  Too Wise to be Mistaken, Too Good to be Unkind: Christian Parents Contend with Autism  Don't do the new interventions that would actually make a difference, just hit them on the face, get compliance, teach them the rules, and pat yourself and say what a good christian parent you are.  No theory of mind instruction to actually help them UNDERSTAND people or what God thinks about a situation.  Just memorize, follow rules, and haul around your pitiful defective child.

 

I'm sorry, but that makes me angry.  It makes me ANGRY that people think rule-following is the end goal and then write books telling others NOT to get proper evals, NOT to get proper interventions that actually CAN make a difference in what they understand and how they think.  

 

But let's just give them grace.  These interventions are new and we all stand on the shoulders of those who came before.  But that may be what they're reading and where they're coming from.  And what was tolerable or excusable or able to be overlooked when he was 8 or 10 or even 12 will hinder his employability and ability to function on his own when he's 15 and 20 and trying to get a job.  They have options.  You can't make anyone avail themselves of them.  

 

PS.  If they go to www.socialthinking.com they can register for a workshop and learn directly from the authors of the materials!  I'm all over this, now that I know how easy it is to connected and get this help.  They don't just read the book but actually bring it to life.  And you know, as a parent you need someone to raise the bar for you and say WOW, your kid COULD be somewhere else, in a better place, if you intervened. The school does that for me and Lecka does.  Even in school that doesn't always happen, so it's not like school is the solution.  I'm just saying when you sit in a workshop and go wow, they did X program with a 7 yo and they made this progress, it moves that bar.  Maybe they feel hopeless and don't feel like they have any way to help him, kwim?  

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Please tell me the precise info that the parents and cover need to purchase and use.

 

Yes, DS has forgiven the boy for social media stuff. Actually, DS removed himself from that particular situation. We were traveling and busy at that time. DS didn't care what the kid was doing until his female friend was affected. There have been meetings with all the teenagers to seek forgiveness and reconciliation. The girl stuff came later and threw a monkey wrench into the system and leaving us all scratching our heads.

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SocialThinking.com has product filters, so hit products, then filter by age range and it will list a bunch of options.  I'm just a novice to this myself.  It's not going to be one thing that is a magic cure.  http://www.socialthinking.com/Products?id={660F2AC8-9E0A-43EA-ABD9-F2B2FA709064}#f:age=[high%20school] This is what you get if you filter for high school.  Then you see categories of conferences, products, and resources.  ST has a ton of free articles, so if they are getting overwhelmed try limiting to the free resources and reading a while.  Then narrow to conferences and see what would be in your area that they could go to.  Then look at products.

 

I think it would be more efficient if they hired a behaviorist.  

 

http://www.socialthinking.com/Products?id={660F2AC8-9E0A-43EA-ABD9-F2B2FA709064}#f:ctype=[resources%20and%20articles]&f:age=[high%20school] This narrows it down to the free articles.  They can start reading here.  

 

Here it is narrowed to products  http://www.socialthinking.com/Products?id={660F2AC8-9E0A-43EA-ABD9-F2B2FA709064}#f:ctype=[products]&f:age=[high%20school]

 

This book is supposed to be a good overview.  I just ordered it.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Thinking About YOU Thinking About ME Named the Ă¢â‚¬Å“bibleĂ¢â‚¬ of Social Thinking by the public, this book weaves together research with many practical teaching and assessment ideas. It provides a framework for deconstructing our social interactions in a systematic manner that makes sense to our students. A comprehensive Social Thinking teaching guide, every page has treatment and assessment ideas to help move us toward more effective teaching.                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

 

This is another on my hit list.  It explains ILAUGH, one of the major frameworks MGM uses.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Inside Out: What Makes a Person with Social Cognitive Deficits Tick? Inside Out connects the social and academic processes and introduces the ILAUGH Model of Social Thinking. (ILAUGH is an acronym representing the many moving parts of the social process.) This user-friendly book provides plenty of practical strategies to re-think what it means to teach social skills in the classroom and at home.                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

 
 

This is another that has been mentioned here on the boards

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 The Hidden Curriculum Revised and Extended Edition In the revised and expanded edition of this popular book, the authors narrow their target to issues common to adolescents and young adults. While many of the features of the original book have been maintained, information on evidence-based practice has been added. Further, a series of instructional strategies are provided that can be used to teach the hidden curriculum. Instructional aids include charts, forms, and templates designed to make the job of teaching and learning the hidden curriculum more effective.                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

 
 

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I have not looked through this book myself, but I have heard it mentioned. 

 

http://www.amazon.ca/Is-Against-Law-Boundaries-Straight/dp/1931282358/ref=pd_sim_14_4/177-2838223-6426954?ie=UTF8&refRID=06VAP79FNNKN59NFQF6Q

 

 

It is also available from the same socialthinking.com website OhE mentions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ă¢â‚¬â€¹

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A lot of assumptions and over-generalizing in the last few posts, but that's ok! Whatever works for you, I guess!

 

My boys know they are on the spectrum and my boys do not attack other kids. My boy has never even hit his brother, even when his brother used to scatch him sometimes a couple of years ago. We teach them respect and what is described here is NOT the general rule for those on the spectrum. Most kids on the spectrum tend to be bullied in school, as would my oldest if he was in one. Anyway...

 

All the best!

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I have not looked through this book myself, but I have heard it mentioned. 

 

http://www.amazon.ca/Is-Against-Law-Boundaries-Straight/dp/1931282358/ref=pd_sim_14_4/177-2838223-6426954?ie=UTF8&refRID=06VAP79FNNKN59NFQF6Q

 

 

It is also available from the same socialthinking.com website OhE mentions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ă¢â‚¬â€¹

That looks like it's spot-on for what Heather described!  

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Cricket, nobody was commenting on your boys and I was speaking specifically to the church community I was raised in.  It's a whole system, with churches, colleges, more churches fed by graduates of those colleges, and the way SN are handled is really split in the community right now, with some understanding more and others saying it's all sin (no matter what the label), they're BAD, they're sinful.  And yes, literally that book advocated hitting your autistic child on the face when spanking doesn't work.     :svengo:   That should offend ALL people, not just anti-spankers, and the fact that it doesn't, that a major voice in the christian community on discipline (Ted Tripp) ENDORSED the book offends me.

 

So if someone is in that system, they're disadvantaged from the start.  They're told to avoid evals because they're by secular psychologists.  They're told not to use ABA because it's not from the Bible.  No CBT, even though it's almost identical (minus Bible verses) to the techniques uncertified but widely accepted "biblical" counselors like Jim Berg use.  No collaborative techniques like in The Explosive Child, nothing.  Even ADHD isn't allowed.  They're told it's not a valid label, that it's exclusively a volitional sin problem.  The author of another book on a christian take on ADHD literally says this.  I corresponded with him, and when challenged he has NO knowledge of ASD.  Ok, there's huge overlap, but you consider yourself an expert with NO knowledge???  

 

So the willingness to be ignorant and eschew ALL interventions and ALL therapies in the name of christianity is keeping people in the dark.  And the irony is, we were told, at the same college where they were telling us not to believe psychologists, not to buy into labels, not to use DSM terminology, that everything is sin, at that same place we were told ALL TRUTH IS GOD'S TRUTH.  But apparently if it comes from a secular psychologist, ABA/BCBA, whatever, that's not the case.   ;)

 

I'm just telling you how someone could be in that church system and get into the pickle Heather's acquaintance is in.  

 

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I deleted my post prior to realizing there was a stir. Sorry about that.

 

Unfortunately, what OhE says has been true where I live. I network because that is what I do, and I cannot count the misunderstandings associated with taking your child to a NP. I stepped into homeschooling by accident after years of working in a system that punishes cognitive and developmental delays. The reasoning behind Zones resonates with me. Since homeschooling, I know three moms that have taken their kids to an NP after we spoke. There is just a ton of ignorance, confusion, and fear within the homeschooling community. These people think that NPs attend years of schooling just to head trip their kids. While we want to live in compliance with our religious beliefs, so many turn to religious leaders for medical answers that aren't medical doctors.

 

Cricket, no one wants to diss or attack you. This thread isn't even about you. How on earth are we going to learn and grow to help ourselves, our kids, and one another if we can't have a frank discussion about hard things? I guess I don't understand.

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