Zones of Regulation training

[PeterPan]

Has anybody done this?  Heard any feedback on it?

[nature girl]

Following! We started it at OT with DD, but since our time is so limited they only take 5 minutes or so each session, and she only has one session a week so we've gotten pretty much nowhere.

 

So far she's had to cut out faces showing various emotions and put them on colored paper to represent the zones, and this week, without giving any warning, the therapist started knocking on and kicking at the table while she was pasting, to demonstrate to Anna what an "unexpected behavior" means. I'm also guiding her at home, talking about which zone she's in at various times and things we can do to get back to the green zone. (Of course whenever I tell her, "Ooh, it looks like you're in the green zone now, doesn't that feel good?" she starts laughing/jiggling/sticking out her tongue to prove to me she's not, which inevitably ends up actually getting her in a silly mood. :001_rolleyes:) I don't know if it's going to work for this girl, but we shall see. She really does need it so desperately.

[PeterPan]

On this page http://zonesofregulation.com/about-the-trainings.html there's a link you can click to see what they cover.  The schedule of workshops for the year is there also.  They're $175, which isn't chump change but isn't horrible either.  I was assuming it would be $350 or something.  

[PeterPan]

Following! We started it at OT with DD, but since our time is so limited they only take 5 minutes or so each session, and she only has one session a week so we've gotten pretty much nowhere.

 

So far she's had to cut out faces showing various emotions and put them on colored paper to represent the zones, and this week, without giving any warning, the therapist started knocking on and kicking at the table while she was pasting, to demonstrate to Anna what an "unexpected behavior" means. I'm also guiding her at home, talking about which zone she's in at various times and things we can do to get back to the green zone. (Of course whenever I tell her, "Ooh, it looks like you're in the green zone now, doesn't that feel good?" she starts laughing/jiggling/sticking out her tongue to prove to me she's not, which inevitably ends up actually getting her in a silly mood. :001_rolleyes:) I don't know if it's going to work for this girl, but we shall see. She really does need it so desperately.

Although your dd is verbally precocious, she's actually, I think, considered young for Zones.  To me you're seeing that social delay in that response.  What you could do to reinforce the elements of Zones they're working on is get games with faces and emotions and play them.  We have one I found at the thrift store, and we just spent some time with the Zones poster of emotions, getting him conversant on emotions.  He might not know what they really mean, how to recognize them, etc., but it plants the words, the seeds.  

 

The other interesting thing to me is how the music therapist will take those emotion words and weave them into songs and pretend play.  So then take the words/emotions you're discussing and weave them into your play, kwim?  Those would be age-appropriate ways to reinforce it.  I don't think she's going to be ready to do tons more.  That silly response is your clue she's not.  But you could do that for a year, just expanding her emotional vocabulary, playing games with faces, bringing emotions into pretend play, etc. and it would be very worthwhile.

[nature girl]

Ah, I see, you're thinking of taking the training yourself! That might be useful, I do keep thinking I could do everything our therapist is doing at home. (There's no training in my area, though.)

[nature girl]

I like your ideas! (And love your music therapist.) We do talk about emotions a lot, always have since I noticed what difficulty she was having with them, but I really do need to step that up. I've also been talking about my own emotions, so she can see what they look like in me (and I play up the expressions on my face/body to make it obvious), hoping she'll learn to recognize and respond to moods in other people, as well as recognize and respond to her own moods.

[kbutton]

Ah, I see, you're thinking of taking the training yourself! That might be useful, I do keep thinking I could do everything our therapist is doing at home. (There's no training in my area, though.)

 

A lot of therapy is like this, but I think that one way in which therapists stand out is in knowing how much, how fast, how to troubleshoot. I am not saying that you wouldn't be able to do this, but consider that they have some subtle skills that come with experience. This varies from one therapist to another though--some are very intuitive and responsive, and others are not. Our first therapy experience was with VT, and that therapist was astounding. 

 

I also think my kids benefited greatly from the relationship with an outside therapist.

 

ETA: I am trying to make you more comfortable with therapy as a whole. I've gotten the sense that you don't think this or most other therapies are going to do a lot. If you choose to pull the plug and do zones at home, you might be just fine. There are some things I feel I can do at home with the right materials and some things that I am not seeing the big picture for well enough to pull it off and know how to gauge progress. 

[nature girl]

A lot of therapy is like this, but I think that one way in which therapists stand out is in knowing how much, how fast, how to troubleshoot. I am not saying that you wouldn't be able to do this, but consider that they have some subtle skills that come with experience. This varies from one therapist to another though--some are very intuitive and responsive, and others are not. Our first therapy experience was with VT, and that therapist was astounding. 

 

I also think my kids benefited greatly from the relationship with an outside therapist.

 

ETA: I am trying to make you more comfortable with therapy as a whole. I've gotten the sense that you don't think this or most other therapies are going to do a lot. If you choose to pull the plug and do zones at home, you might be just fine. There are some things I feel I can do at home with the right materials and some things that I am not seeing the big picture for well enough to pull it off and know how to gauge progress. 

 

We're sticking with it for now, but honestly I'm not sure if OT is going to do much for her. She spends 25 minutes swinging on equipment of her choice, and then has 5 minutes of Zones...I don't see anything really directed going on other than those 5 minutes, and heck I could buy a hammock or take her to the playground to swing and climb...so it doesn't seem worth the $50 and hour-plus of driving. (I'll talk to the therapist soon though, because who knows, there might be things going on behind the scenes that I'm not catching.)

[PeterPan]

AM, is the OT giving you homework?  I agree, that's why I pulled the plug on our first OT (with dd), because I could buy a swing and work at home.  The OT we're using now works in schools and has a LOT more tools, asks us to do things at home, TEACHES us to do things at home, and follows through.

[Lecka]

I have also had a bad experience with OT that soured me on OT.  I still have some residual sourness.

 

But I also see.... the OT we were with, as much as other people loved her (with different sets of issues) and as much as if  you went by what she said was her specialty........... she just was not a good fit with my son and they did not accomplish anything.  Maybe it was even detrimental. 

 

But now I have had better experiences with OT with him.

 

Twenty five minutes of free play does not sound like anything special to me.

 

Maybe she is doing some amazing rapport-building but that should be purposeful and stuff.  That is all the benefit of the doubt I give her at this point.

 

The OT that was not a good fit, just had no clue how to work with my son, how to engage him, how to involve him, etc.  It was HER, b/c we started with ABA therapy around the same time and those therapists all knew how to work with him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

But she was not BAD, she just was not a good fit with my son.  She was nice and I think she is actually a good therapist. 

 

There is just a need for a good fit. 

 

(I can make a mental list of people who have been a good fit with my son, and those who have not, ranging from speech therapists, OTs, ABA therapists, pre-school aides, pre-school teachers, etc, etc, etc. ------- And sometimes you just have to wait and see -- it can seem like something will work, but it doesn't.  OR, it seems like it won't work, but then it does.)

[nature girl]

AM, is the OT giving you homework?  I agree, that's why I pulled the plug on our first OT (with dd), because I could buy a swing and work at home.  The OT we're using now works in schools and has a LOT more tools, asks us to do things at home, TEACHES us to do things at home, and follows through.

 

All she gave us was the sensory diet, which we've been doing for weeks. I'm not sure how much it's helping, because sensory doesn't seem to be the biggest issue behind her behavioral control, but she enjoys it well enough so we'll keep going at least for a little while longer. (Pushing a grocery cart does keep her from running off in stores, so there's that.)

 

As far as whether she's a good fit...I don't know. Anna likes her well enough, she's kind and patient enough to put up with Anna's rambunctiousness, and she has experience, but she's in her late 50's and Anna really connects better with younger people. (She actually had one session with a younger therapist, and Anna ended it by beaming at her and saying, "I like you!" Which she's never done with the therapist we're continuing with. Unfortunately that first therapist isn't available.) But I think my main issue isn't so much with the therapist, it's with the seeming pointlessness of driving out there for Anna to play on an indoor playground.

[PeterPan]

AM, the OT I used with dd was like that, sort of the "I am the God of sensory, without me you can do nothing..." and she was happy to do it all at $100 an hour.  The OT we're using now is like "I'm SO BUSY PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do this stuff at home!!!" and EVERY TIME I go in we add something new and try something new.  I kid you not.  And you did see my post saying my ds, who was basically IMPOSSIBLE to take in stores can now walk through a store.  You saw that, right?  And that my kid, who never sat at a table unless he deigned to and bolted inexplicably, can sit at a table and work, yes?  And I can even show you video footage, so you can see his *fidgeting* calming down, even without meds.

 

Here's his youtube playlist of therapy videos.  

 Look at it and see.  I have videos from October, September, August, and back.  You can see how he was before OT and now.  Look at anything from before 7/15 and that's pre-OT.  I was watching today the videos of him getting the TOPS back in Sept of last year (9/14) and look at that movement.  That was CALM for him, sedate.  She had to strap him down just to work with him!  Now he simply sits in a chair, no restraints, no fidgeting, nothing.

 

The right OT makes a huge, huge difference.  It's partly time, partly problem solving (them listening to you and offering solutions), partly them giving you therapy things to do at home.  We're doing Zengar *and* therapeutic listening *and* kinesio taping *and* reflex work *and* 6 hours of gymnastics and 3 days of swimming a week.  And with all that, that's where we've gotten too.  It's not one thing but each thing giving 10% of the improvement.  It's just when you get enough of those 10%s added up, you get more of a whole child.  Look at my before video and this video.  In the one for 8/22, he's got things spinning and he's building forts, just this totally defensive, whacked out place.  Now, two months later, we're more stable and have a lot less of that.  He might go spin things for a while to recenter, but it's not like this all day oh my lands.  

 

I just really think it's a mistake, when you have a kid with SPD, ADHD + social delay + anxiety, etc. to treat it (solely, largely) as a cognitive thing.  I think it's their *bodies* getting beyond what they can handle.  They're KIDS.  They cannot just WILL themselves into a better place.  If they COULD, they WOULD.  Therefore, they cannot.  Therefore we have to have interventions to help their bodies get to a better place.  And as Judy Blume says, "If you at first you don't fricassee, fry, fry a hen!"  Sometimes it takes several OTs to find the one that is pulling out the stops and giving the mix the dc needs.  Our OT had Therapeutic Listening just lying in her basement.  She didn't even think to bring it out!  $40 a cd  :svengo:  So some of it is me too, because now I know that the research shows that just mildly doing some vestibular input 20 minutes a week isn't going to get it done.  It's going to have to be some therapy level intervention, done at home, done consistently.  But my boy is in a better place and I think your girl can be too.  Lecka has challenged me constantly on this, why I would accept things from my ds that the ps in her area wouldn't accept from her ds but would do something about.  So I'm just passing on the favor, even though it doesn't feel like a favor.  Look at the video and see how far my ds has come in 2-3 months and see if you can advocate to get some options to make things happen.  She doesn't have to stay as she is, and she's not going to be able to just think her out of it.  With my ds, these therapies are like MAGIC.  I kid you not.  We start something, and people start asking what we've done because they SEE the change.  If you're thinking voodoo is what you're getting, you might be.  Require change for your money.

 

And I'm not even saying be rude or rash about it.  You could just send her an email and say you know, I'm not seeing as much change as I had hoped, do you have more options...  Do you have any listening therapies, etc. etc., could we have more homework, are there things you can assign to us to do at home to maximize what you're doing in sessions...

 

 

[nature girl]

That really is amazing! And his speech has gotten so much better, wow. (He's just the cutest thing, Elizabeth!)

 

I think I remember you saying he doesn't have ADHD, though? Were his fidgeting issues mainly sensory? Anna just wouldn't be able to attend to the testing/therapy in the way he was even in the earliest videos, her mind would be all over the place and she wouldn't even try to answer questions, she jiggles in an attempt to stay focused. So that's part of the problem we have that it doesn't look like you do.

 

Still, everything you're saying makes a lot of sense, thank you...I'm going to try to talk to the therapist before our next session, because I always leave there feeling like, Seriously, that's it? They've also never given me an actual assessment, which bugs me because I don't know if they're doing anything except watching her play. (I had to ASK for her to tell me that Anna has a weak core and motor planning issues.) I don't even know what other therapies they have available there, I know they don't have neurofeedback and don't do BalAVisX, which I think have been most helpful for your two, so what else can they do? (Can I ask what therapy-level intervention you do at home? Like I said earlier, all I've been told to do is heavy work and brushing.)

 

ETA: And I'm so sorry to hijack your post!!

[nature girl]

Okay, I'd really appreciate an opinion. Does this sound too strident? I'm kind of in a strident mood, so I don't want that to come through. Thank you SO much, and again, I'm so sorry to hijack, this has just been weighing on me. I hope someone can give you feedback on that training, or at least on Zones in general!

 

"Hi Pam, I'm writing because I'd love a chance to talk to you outside of Anna's therapy session, since I don't like discussing her progress and delays in front of her, and right now she thinks of OT as just a fun playground, rather than therapy.

 

I'm just hoping that I can get a sense of what the plans are for the future, what you're hoping to see as a result of the activities that are being done there, and what else I can do at home to help her. At this point it seems like she goes in and plays for 20 minutes on activities of her choosing, then has 5 minutes of Zones. I don't know if there are things being done that I'm not picking up on, or if all those free choice activities are supposed to be more than just fun and will lead to something. (Will 20 minutes of swinging once a week make much of a difference?)

 

I hope this comes across in the right way, I think therapy can be helpful for her, and know most of the issues she's facing can't be addressed solely cognitively, just would like to get a better sense of what to expect going forward, of how she's doing, the assessments you might have made, and whether you have any more options available to help her move forward. Therapy means an hour and fifteen minutes of driving for her, for just a half hour session, so I want to make sure we're using that time as efficiently and effectively as possible.

 

Thanks so much,

Elizabeth

[PeterPan]

AM, you're fine, not hijacking at all.  It's all just conversation.  :)

 

We've seen 3 psychs, got three different conclusions, some of which overlap.  He's complex.  :D  Yes, he's considered to have ADHD.  One psych said inattentive, which is a joke.  Another psych said ADHD-combined, which I think is reasonable.  He has complex repetitive motions, so some of the weird finger things he does (flicking, etc.) are actually repetitive motions and stimming, not just fidgeting.  But there's has just always been a lot of MOTION on him.  That's what always blows people away, the motion. When you pair that with his crazy high impulsivity, it can be REALLY hard to work with.  But I can see what you're saying about it presenting somewhat differently in your dd.  My older dd is labeled ADHD-inattentive, and when I worked with her at this age it was short sessions.  Just classic inattentive.  That's why we thought it was such a crock when the first (very expensive!) psych went the way he did, because he didn't discuss it with us, didn't listen, nothing.  Total crock.  Ds can sit and do something for 45 minutes.  Blows people away.  Dd couldn't have DREAMED of doing that and really struggles to do that even now.  He, at age 5/6 could sit down and play an entire game of Star Trek Catan with you.  That is NOT ADHD inattentive, lol.  But ADHD-combined, yeah you can get there.  

 

I forget, why are we going into this?  LOL  (I have a headache.)  Thanks for telling me his speech is improving.  That's why I was looking at his videos this morning, to quantify that.  We had to change SLPs, and that's not a comfortable thing for me.  It's interesting to hear an objective voice, someone who has never heard him video, saying he's improving.  We've been pushing very hard on his ST, doing weekly double sessions, which is really very aggressive.  Because it's with a different therapist, I've been videoing so I can establish progress.  I have video going all the way back to his early sessions, but I've never gotten it all up online, sorry.  

 

Your letter seems good.  Some therapists are good about writing back and some will just take that and talk when you get there anyway.  I have no clue what's going on.  At one point we had suggested you ask about what the cost would be if she had longer sessions.  I can see why you're not inclined to pay for longer sessions when you're not happy yet.  It's true it all rides on what training the OT has gotten.  Some of these therapies have provider locators.  You could see if a search through the sites for BalavisX or Zengar neurofeedback or Therapeutic Listening would turn you up some more options.  Does this place have a therapist who specializes in autism?  

[kbutton]

 

Okay, I'd really appreciate an opinion. Does this sound too strident? I'm kind of in a strident mood, so I don't want that to come through. Thank you SO much, and again, I'm so sorry to hijack, this has just been weighing on me. I hope someone can give you feedback on that training, or at least on Zones in general!

 

"Hi Pam, I'm writing because I'd love a chance to talk to you outside of Anna's therapy session, since I don't like discussing her progress and delays in front of her, and right now she thinks of OT as just a fun playground, rather than therapy. Anna should think therapy is a lot like play, so I nix this sentence.

 

I'm just hoping that I can get a sense of what the plans are for the future, what you're hoping to see as a result of the activities that are being done there(.), and what else I can do at home to help her Make this second question a separate one later in the message, or she probably won't answer it.). At this point it seems like she goes in and plays for 20 minutes on activities of her choosing (, and I don't know how those choices are meeting the needs you've seen. Perhaps if I had a report that discusses her areas of weakness, you could explain how these activities line up with the areas in which she needs help.), then has 5 minutes of Zones (I would be more specific about how you like/don't like zones as another question in another paragraph.). I don't know if there are things being done that I'm not picking up on, or if (how) all those free choice activities are supposed to be more than just fun and will lead to something. specific gains. (Will 20 minutes of swinging once a week make much of a difference?) 

 

I hope this comes across in the right way, I think therapy can be helpful for her, and know most of the issues she's facing can't be addressed solely cognitively, just would like to get a better sense of what to expect going forward, of how she's doing, the assessments you might have made, and whether you have any more options available to help her move forward. Therapy means an hour and fifteen minutes of driving for her, for just a half hour session, so I want to make sure we're using that time as efficiently and effectively as possible.

 

Thanks so much,

Elizabeth

 

 

HTH. I am pressed for time, so sorry about the heavy handed editing--it's still a suggestion. I think you're off to the right start.

[nature girl]

Thank you so much, kbutton! Great suggestions, I'll make the changes and send it out.

 

OhE, the improvement was obvious! I couldn't understand a good deal of what he was saying in one of the earlier videos, but in your latest he's absolutely crystal clear, you'd never know there was an issue!

 

There's really nobody within driving distance that does neurofeedback, or who lists BalavisX as one of their therapies. This place does The Listening Program though, so maybe I can ask them if they think it might help. (I think they do IM as well, but there's no way DD would ever sit still for that.) I don't know if there's a specific therapist there who specializes in ASD, but it does seem to make up a good part of their practice, at least from what I've seen when other families are in the gym with us and before/after.

[prairiewindmomma]

Our OT and school psych therapist (they exist!) worked together and with me on doing Zones with ds2. It was a revolutionary moment when I realized learning for my kid only happens in the green zone.

 

I would love to do the training myself but this isn't the right year for me to do that.

[prairiewindmomma]

OhE, do you have the Kuypers book?

[Lecka]

I do not hear it called "green" b/c Zones has not really made it to my town yet (as far as I know).... but here people say kids have to be in "ready to learn" to learn.

 

There are characteristics of "ready to learn," and if kids are not in "ready to learn," they are not ready to learn.

 

It has a ring to it!  It is self-explanatory!  It is one of those things that sounds a little funny at first, but now I am used to it and I say it, too.   

 

I talked to my son's therapist on Monday, and I requested that she look into Zones and Visualizing & Verbalizing for him.  She might be able to borrow the materials or check them out, if they seem good for my son.  I told her they are popular things people are talking about on the Internet, so they sound good, but they might not be just what he needs right now.  

[PeterPan]

AM-When I google searched, Therapeutic Listening was getting a lot better results with people here on the board than the other listening program.  You might check the Therapeutic Listening site to see if they have a provider list.  Our EI (early intervention) around here uses it.  I would think it's a widely available thing. 

[PeterPan]

OhE, do you have the Kuypers book?

Yes, I need to review it tonight.  OneStep laughed at how I read, but I really am like a rabbit on speed.  I read the beginning, end, get bored and guess the middle.  I sorta miss details that way, lol.  So I'll give it a look through again now that I know I'm going.  As I talked with the OT and looked at things, I realized there are a bunch of angles to it that I had not figured out.  Should be enlightening!

[PeterPan]

Our OT and school psych therapist (they exist!) worked together and with me on doing Zones with ds2. It was a revolutionary moment when I realized learning for my kid only happens in the green zone.

 

I would love to do the training myself but this isn't the right year for me to do that.

I hadn't heard it put that succinctly, but you're right.  That's what I've been slowly realizing this year, that we needed a whole year (or at least a ton) of therapy just to *get* to ready to learn.  

[Innisfree]

We're doing Zones with dd's ABA provider. The jury is still out on effectiveness for us.

 

Dd doesn't have much trouble identifying what zone she's in, but often lacks motivation or probably ability to shift to a more appropriate zone.

 

I hope that may come with time and practice. We're only a few chapters and weeks into the book.

[PeterPan]

Well I'm back from the workshop!  I still need to process.

 

 

We're doing Zones with dd's ABA provider. The jury is still out on effectiveness for us.

Dd doesn't have much trouble identifying what zone she's in, but often lacks motivation or probably ability to shift to a more appropriate zone.

I hope that may come with time and practice. We're only a few chapters and weeks into the book.

 

 

I'm curious how old your dd is?  Kuyper uses Zones with younger students than I had anticipated (based on comments here on the board).  Also, she envisions a much more pro-active, front-ended instructional process rather than (largely) reactive.  So, for instance, she suggested that students do check-in where they label their zones 2X/day and practice their tools 2X/day.  They are to practice their tools (for all the states, all the choices), to the point of automaticity, so that when they are in that zone it seems natural to go Oh, I'm in Blue Zone, this is what I do... 

 

So I don't think the question is whether Zones can be effective but whether we're actually implementing it the way she intended.  She's doing a LOT of teaching with this, daily work, front-ending, making it the language of conversation, woven in throughout the day, with checkins, with practice sessions, with the teacher/parent as co-regulator taking them to the choice board when they see the dc is in that Zone and getting them to make choices...

 

And then, if anyone wonders, yes it was worth it.  I'd definitely go back when/if they bring her back for the advanced workshop.  Now I'm realizing I need to hit workshops and get materials from Social Thinking.  It's weird, but what I learned most in the workshop today was the HOLES I have in my understanding.  I can't even do all the steps with him, because I don't yet have the materials and understanding to address those foundational issues (recognizing body language, perspective taking, theory of mind, etc.).  

 

Also, she doesn't envision this as quite as linear a process as the materials make it look.  She expects people to loop back and envisions scenarios where people might start in a more advanced way and loop back around.  She commented that when she started doing this she gave too many tools and didn't teach them to mastery.  Now she gives less tools but practices them to get buy-in and just to get to where they're natural to the student.  THEN she adds another tool.  So with a preschool/young age student like mine, she might only start with 1-2 emotions and 1-3 tools.  As the dc becomes proficient in those, then she adds more.  She said when you go faster, you end up with a pile of tools but no naturalness to actually USING them, that it's better to have less tools (just one or two) but really use them.

 

Well it was fascinating.  I was sorta outclassed, but at least I wanted to be there.  This lady beside me kept texting happy birthday messages and looking at pictures of her grandkids.  Just remember that's who your kid's OT could be.  I don't have nice words for that.

[PeterPan]

Btw, one of the things I appreciated most was her use of words like *empathy* and *compassion*.  She said that if these kids had SLD reading, ID, whatever, we'd have all sorts of compassion, but if they have these issues with self-regulation (which she says are developmental), that we just go YOU'RE BAD and get all punitive.  Apparently that was how it was handled in schools where she was working, and she developed her program to give those kids more tools.  She's a huge fan of Ross Greene (author of The Explosive Child, the first book I've read that REALLY fit my ds).

 

Zones is much newer than I realized.  She isn't coming at this from some kind of I'm perfect, I'm an expert position.  It's more that she was in a school and saw SN kids being treated punitively for things that didn't seem within their immediate ability to improve, and it HAUNTED her.  That's so where we were with ds, that it just seemed like we couldn't explain why, but punitive wasn't working.  And not in a wishy washy way like we weren't diligent or willing, but that it wasn't clicking, that he couldn't make the connection, that he couldn't learn from punitive interactions, at least not the lessons we wanted him to learn.  

 

So anyways, that was fascinating, that she basically confirmed everything I had concluded about this, that there is this whole swath of kids with developmental problems who REALLY NEED some alternate interaction.  She then took it further, explaining how it was developmental, what systems got glitched.  That's what got frustrating though, because basically you realize that not only is this part glitchy, but some more steps (that require more materials, more instruction) are also glitched.  Eventually all the pieces have to be there for it to come together maturely.  So that's kind of a deep breath thing.  

 

But yeah, good workshop, glad I went.  

[Innisfree]

OhE, my dd is almost 11.

 

I need to go back and read everything you've just written really carefully. I wish I'd signed up for the workshop near me, but couldn't do it this time. I think our BCBA was going: hope she did or will or whatever and gets a lot out of it.

 

I don't think she's been working much on tools; need to check on that. Definitely not checking zones twice/day. She'll be here tomorrow, so I'll find out about that.

[PeterPan]

OhE, my dd is almost 11.

 

I need to go back and read everything you've just written really carefully. I wish I'd signed up for the workshop near me, but couldn't do it this time. I think our BCBA was going: hope she did or will or whatever and gets a lot out of it.

 

I don't think she's been working much on tools; need to check on that. Definitely not checking zones twice/day. She'll be here tomorrow, so I'll find out about that.

Well I would think she'll come back with new ideas for you!  I know I had read the book, but actually seeing it presented more cohesively helped.  I would think if you say you're happy to do more with her using whatever structures she sets up, the BCBA should be excited.   :)

 

Btw, Kuypers had all sorts of modifications for different ages.  It was weird to sit there and ponder what would work in a homeschool vs. traditional school.  I really liked her idea of a flip book placed on the desk so that it would be there just to sort of self-monitor with.  Then they could just FLIP when they realized they were changing.  I could really see my ds doing that.  I'm just saying there are lots of ways to arrange it, so you can kind of brain storm together where, how often, etc to do those interactions.  The flip book was a high school target age idea.  She had modified charts for those who needed less.  A lot are printables on the cd, so it's easy for your BCBA to offer options.

 

Is she using any of the Social Thinking stuff with it or anything else for Theory of Mind?  That's what I need to learn about next.

 

[Innisfree]

As for the matter of punishing kids for things which are essentially beyond their control, that resonates so strongly with me.

 

I think Ross Green and Kuypers have jointly given me the language and mental framework to process what we've been seeing all along. So, kids do well when they can, and punishments send dd straight to the red zone. She can. not. learn when she is in the red zone, so punishments are not only useless, they are counterproductive. And, as you say, why on earth would we punish kids for a developmental delay?

 

But punishment ("consequences") is exactly what my personal candidate for worst psychologist in the world told us dd needed more of a few years back. The thought of that man sends me into the red zone. Dd sat in his office mute, avoiding his gaze, we brought lengthy documentation about her meltdowns which he didn't read, and he told us there was nothing organic going on. It was just a matter of consistent discipline. So those people are out there, and heaven help the kids whose lives they influence.

 

I really wonder where we'd be in this process if we hadn't wasted time trying to follow his advice. And I worry about the long-term effects of being pushed into the red zone over and over in the name of discipline. We've learned better, and done a complete turnaround, and we are seeing progress, so thank goodness for that.

[Innisfree]

No, I need to look at the Social Thinking stuff. Oddly enough, the neuropsych said her theory of mind is largely intact. Not perfect, but not so bad. But I suspect under stress that may change, at least in practical terms.

[kbutton]

So, did she give kind of a flowchart or top-down idea of how the skills tie in together and what needs to be in place for various parts of the program?

 

I am curious about the flip book and about the printables/choice board. (And are those part of her program, or is she referring to something a student already has?)

[kbutton]

No, I need to look at the Social Thinking stuff. Oddly enough, the neuropsych said her theory of mind is largely intact. Not perfect, but not so bad. But I suspect under stress that may change, at least in practical terms.

 

There is so much my son can do unless he's under stress, in a novel situation, facing one single new variable...Pervasive developmental disorder, indeed!

 

I think the part about working toward automaticity with these skills is pretty telling.

[sbgrace]

This is interesting! I'm sort of scattered tonight, so will have to come back to process.

 

I have the book. I stopped it because my son seemed to "get it", but not be able to really move himself to another zone when actually dysregulated. I decided to try mindfulness (MindUp) (also struggling with this one, though), hoping it would be a piece to make the zones work better. Anyway, maybe I need to change my approach.

 

Thank you for sharing what you learned!

 

 

Well I'm back from the workshop!  I still need to process.

 

 

 

 

I'm curious how old your dd is?  Kuyper uses Zones with younger students than I had anticipated (based on comments here on the board).  Also, she envisions a much more pro-active, front-ended instructional process rather than (largely) reactive.  So, for instance, she suggested that students do check-in where they label their zones 2X/day and practice their tools 2X/day.  They are to practice their tools (for all the states, all the choices), to the point of automaticity, so that when they are in that zone it seems natural to go Oh, I'm in Blue Zone, this is what I do... 

 

So I don't think the question is whether Zones can be effective but whether we're actually implementing it the way she intended.  She's doing a LOT of teaching with this, daily work, front-ending, making it the language of conversation, woven in throughout the day, with checkins, with practice sessions, with the teacher/parent as co-regulator taking them to the choice board when they see the dc is in that Zone and getting them to make choices...

 

And then, if anyone wonders, yes it was worth it.  I'd definitely go back when/if they bring her back for the advanced workshop.  Now I'm realizing I need to hit workshops and get materials from Social Thinking.  It's weird, but what I learned most in the workshop today was the HOLES I have in my understanding.  I can't even do all the steps with him, because I don't yet have the materials and understanding to address those foundational issues (recognizing body language, perspective taking, theory of mind, etc.).  

 

Also, she doesn't envision this as quite as linear a process as the materials make it look.  She expects people to loop back and envisions scenarios where people might start in a more advanced way and loop back around.  She commented that when she started doing this she gave too many tools and didn't teach them to mastery.  Now she gives less tools but practices them to get buy-in and just to get to where they're natural to the student.  THEN she adds another tool.  So with a preschool/young age student like mine, she might only start with 1-2 emotions and 1-3 tools.  As the dc becomes proficient in those, then she adds more.  She said when you go faster, you end up with a pile of tools but no naturalness to actually USING them, that it's better to have less tools (just one or two) but really use them.

 

Well it was fascinating.  I was sorta outclassed, but at least I wanted to be there.  This lady beside me kept texting happy birthday messages and looking at pictures of her grandkids.  Just remember that's who your kid's OT could be.  I don't have nice words for that.

 

[LaughingCat]

Btw, one of the things I appreciated most was her use of words like *empathy* and *compassion*.  She said that if these kids had SLD reading, ID, whatever, we'd have all sorts of compassion, but if they have these issues with self-regulation (which she says are developmental), that we just go YOU'RE BAD and get all punitive.  Apparently that was how it was handled in schools where she was working, and she developed her program to give those kids more tools.  She's a huge fan of Ross Greene (author of The Explosive Child, the first book I've read that REALLY fit my ds).

 

Way off topic, but I don't feel like with my DD's reading that the school had all sorts of compassion at all -- true, it wasn't about 'bad and punitive' -- it was just about 'stupid' and 'bad parenting' along with punishment via hours and hours of homework and bad grades for incomplete or misunderstood work. 

 

More on topic -- I read The Explosive Child years ago (and spin offs -- similar technique by other authors) -- and never could seem to implement it.  I read his most recent edition a few weeks ago and thought it seemed much better explained... and yet still struggle with implementation (although at least this recent version also acknowledged how hard it can be).

[PeterPan]

This is interesting! I'm sort of scattered tonight, so will have to come back to process.

 

I have the book. I stopped it because my son seemed to "get it", but not be able to really move himself to another zone when actually dysregulated. I decided to try mindfulness (MindUp) (also struggling with this one, though), hoping it would be a piece to make the zones work better. Anyway, maybe I need to change my approach.

 

Thank you for sharing what you learned!

Yes, I was struck by HOW MUCH work she was doing proactively, in green zone.  They want you to have green zone tools that you implement every day just as a way of keeping them in green zone.  Then you have all the tools for the zones that you're practicing to get their use automatic, and those you're practicing daily.  So the reactive use is just a small, small portion of the approach.  I know I was very confused about that when I first tried to use it and thought it was supposed to be this magic cure.  I think it only is when you use it much more proactively.

 

 

Way off topic, but I don't feel like with my DD's reading that the school had all sorts of compassion at all -- true, it wasn't about 'bad and punitive' -- it was just about 'stupid' and 'bad parenting' along with punishment via hours and hours of homework and bad grades for incomplete or misunderstood work. 

 

More on topic -- I read The Explosive Child years ago (and spin offs -- similar technique by other authors) -- and never could seem to implement it.  I read his most recent edition a few weeks ago and thought it seemed much better explained... and yet still struggle with implementation (although at least this recent version also acknowledged how hard it can be).

 

I'm not a very tidy implementer of anyone's systems, lol.  That's why I decided I should go to the workshop, because otherwise my impressions of Zones were just going to remain hack.  And really, there's a lot that ISN'T in the book;  she's coming out with a 2nd book (it's in the editing phase) to resolve this.

[PeterPan]

So, did she give kind of a flowchart or top-down idea of how the skills tie in together and what needs to be in place for various parts of the program?

 

I am curious about the flip book and about the printables/choice board. (And are those part of her program, or is she referring to something a student already has?)

You probably never used SWR, but those who have know how horribly sequential and chronological SWR is, how Sanseri struggles to be big picture/conceptual.  Well as I reviewed Zones before the workshop, I realized what happened.  Kuyper is sort of like Sanseri.  Even her handouts (all the slides) had that tons of detail, no synthesis thing, oy.  Don't know how people can stand it.  The outline was there, but I had to outline the lecture myself to find it.  I sat there mentally redoing her slides the whole time, lol.

 

As to your actual question, she had the things there for participants to look at, and most of the things are printables from the cd in the book.  The rest would not be hard to make.  

 

I think her new book *may* be more big picture.  She told us some of the content in this workshop was in her new book.  There's also an advanced workshop.  

 

She may have pics on her website.  She said a lot of her research is there too.  Really though, the flip books were just like Wordless Books from your Bible songs, if that makes sense.  Think Wordless book, only with Zones colors, lol.  Then do it in any way that would work for your student.  I could see a wheel that spins.  You could have a single page with 4 quadrants and a magnetic marker to move.  It really doesn't matter.  On her flip books she had some with the tools for that zone on the other side, some with the tools velcroed on, some with the tools as pics where the student wrote text.  I took it that you should just be creative.

[DeniseF]

My ds' therapist is using Zones of Regulation with him but we're just a few weeks in and I can't tell how valuable it will be.  Meanwhile I bought the SuperFlex curriculum from Social Thinking which I love, my ds couldn't wait to start reading it but I can see there's a lot of behind-the-scenes preparation I need to do to implement it effectively.  I want to do it so that my whole family can use the same language and this can be something we all talk about, good-naturedly, with each other...it may take some special setup with my kids so we don't end up using it in an accusatory way with each other... "Rock Brain has control of your head" etc.  I'm still waiting on the poster to show up.  My kids love superheroes and I think it's going to be great, in conjunction with the Zones too.

[PeterPan]

No, I need to look at the Social Thinking stuff. Oddly enough, the neuropsych said her theory of mind is largely intact. Not perfect, but not so bad. But I suspect under stress that may change, at least in practical terms.

Pragmatics testing is hack and error-prone at best.  There are studies showing kids with ASD per the ADOS having normal pragmatics scores.  It's only at an older age that those scores line up more and the NT kids pull away.  If her pragmatics testing was done when she was say 7, it might not be at all where she is now.  

[PeterPan]

So, did she give kind of a flowchart or top-down idea of how the skills tie in together and what needs to be in place for various parts of the program?

 

She spent 4 hours on this.  She went into great detail on each system affecting self-regulation development (sensory, EF, emotional, social cog).  We all think of sensory, so the detailed exploration of EF was new for me.  The social cognition is where my hole is, and although some of MGW's Social Thinking lessons are included in Zones, really you need to expand with other complementary materials for that.  

 

That's where I felt she had a hole, because everything was all words, words, words, using WORDS to get to social cognition.  So she'd tell these stories and it was like after a year of talk therapy (talking about social) this is where we're at.  I sat there thinking ok, we need to do this smarter.  Social cognition is developmental, so we need to look back at development, RDI, something.  She had games where they were doing charades, etc., but even this was extracting blood from turnips.  They need to be analyzing models, video clips.  It makes NO sense to me to tell kids to act out xyz emotion when they have no model, no experience, no list of characteristics, no study.  That's looking for fruit without planting seeds.  She talked about seeds, but not on this one.  

 

She doesn't consider herself a social cognition and social thinking expert.  She considers Winner the guru on that.  Fine, so I'll look into it.  I'm just saying to me her approach on that didn't make sense and had holes.  (shrug)  I'm also known for being cruelly critical.  Whatever, just saying what I saw.  It wasn't all adding up.  You've got whole worksheets and thought processes that are trying to say kick in the metacognitive, notice, and noticing is fine.  But they're saying what are your body clues, and I'm asking where the list is and how I KNOW all this stuff, kwim?  Like I can't just look at myself and go "When I'm yellow, my eyes dilate, my heart rate increases by 20%, I do x fidget with my hands, and my ears turn red."  I'm making all that up, but that's what she was looking for.  I'm saying I can't get my student there.  I don't see that and don't know how to help him see that, and all she gave was the instructions to get there, with this sort of bizarre assumption that it would somehow happen, that we're all like little McCoys with tricorders.  

 

So that's what I mean by holes.  So it seems to me if we've got the blind leading the blind (or worse, lol), then we're going to have to get some models and hash it out. You could even watch tv episodes for this, kwim?  Now they aren't entirely REAL, but you could.  But it's not actually the child.  She had ideas like videoing the dc so he could analyze himself.  

 

I don't know, we'll figure it out.  The thought process is healthy.  It's just requiring some end fruit without watering the seeds to give it.  She refers off to Social Thinking materials for all that.

[PeterPan]

My ds' therapist is using Zones of Regulation with him but we're just a few weeks in and I can't tell how valuable it will be.  Meanwhile I bought the SuperFlex curriculum from Social Thinking which I love, my ds couldn't wait to start reading it but I can see there's a lot of behind-the-scenes preparation I need to do to implement it effectively.  I want to do it so that my whole family can use the same language and this can be something we all talk about, good-naturedly, with each other...it may take some special setup with my kids so we don't end up using it in an accusatory way with each other... "Rock Brain has control of your head" etc.  I'm still waiting on the poster to show up.  My kids love superheroes and I think it's going to be great, in conjunction with the Zones too.

Ooo, this is interesting!  She had "Rock Brain" on one of the pages where a boy was labeling himself for how he is in x Zone.  It was so cute, I thought it would resonate well with ds.  

 

There was a lot of planting seeds, using simplified approaches with younger kids.  She suggested for younger kids modifying the 5 point scale to simpler concepts like BIG problem vs. little problem.  So she envisions a lot of planting seeds.  It's not meant to be this 18 week BAM DONE program.  It's really not.  She sees this taking years for some kids, a process, with lots of other programs and materials getting woven in.  She does not view it as do 18 lessons in the book and you've graduated.  

 

The whole idea is to develop *independent* self-regulation as possible.  So the reason it's not 18 weeks and done (even though the book seems set up that way), is because you can't rush development.

[nature girl]

That's where I felt she had a hole, because everything was all words, words, words, using WORDS to get to social cognition.  So she'd tell these stories and it was like after a year of talk therapy (talking about social) this is where we're at.  I sat there thinking ok, we need to do this smarter.  Social cognition is developmental, so we need to look back at development, RDI, something.  She had games where they were doing charades, etc., but even this was extracting blood from turnips.  They need to be analyzing models, video clips.  It makes NO sense to me to tell kids to act out xyz emotion when they have no model, no experience, no list of characteristics, no study.  That's looking for fruit without planting seeds.  She talked about seeds, but not on this one.  

 

She doesn't consider herself a social cognition and social thinking expert.  She considers Winner the guru on that.  Fine, so I'll look into it.  I'm just saying to me her approach on that didn't make sense and had holes.  (shrug)  I'm also known for being cruelly critical.  Whatever, just saying what I saw.  It wasn't all adding up.  You've got whole worksheets and thought processes that are trying to say kick in the metacognitive, notice, and noticing is fine.  But they're saying what are your body clues, and I'm asking where the list is and how I KNOW all this stuff, kwim?  Like I can't just look at myself and go "When I'm yellow, my eyes dilate, my heart rate increases by 20%, I do x fidget with my hands, and my ears turn red."  I'm making all that up, but that's what she was looking for.  I'm saying I can't get my student there.  I don't see that and don't know how to help him see that, and all she gave was the instructions to get there, with this sort of bizarre assumption that it would somehow happen, that we're all like little McCoys with tricorders.  

 

So that's what I mean by holes.  So it seems to me if we've got the blind leading the blind (or worse, lol), then we're going to have to get some models and hash it out. You could even watch tv episodes for this, kwim?  Now they aren't entirely REAL, but you could.  But it's not actually the child.  She had ideas like videoing the dc so he could analyze himself.  

 

 

Is labeling when you see they're in certain moods supposed to help them recognize how their body is reacting? You might be surprised...Speaking of videos I did actually tape my DD a couple of weeks ago mid-meltdown because I wanted to make it clear to her what the red zone was. (At the time she was in no state to listen to anything.) When I showed it to her later I said, "What do you think this girl is feeling?" And she said, "She feels scrunched up." So little kids can actually remember how certain emotions feel...Less dramatic emotions might be harder for them to catch, I think I'll have to tape her next time she's hyper and/or overly silly, and also when she's frustrated, and see if she has the same understanding watching it from the outside.

 

I'll have to buy Kuyper's book when the new version comes out, this is all so interesting, it's so much more involved and nuanced than I'd realized. Thanks so much for sharing what you've learned!

[PeterPan]

Is labeling when you see they're in certain moods supposed to help them recognize how their body is reacting? You might be surprised...Speaking of videos I did actually tape my DD a couple of weeks ago mid-meltdown because I wanted to make it clear to her what the red zone was. (At the time she was in no state to listen to anything.) When I showed it to her later I said, "What do you think this girl is feeling?" And she said, "She feels scrunched up." So little kids can actually remember how certain emotions feel...Less dramatic emotions might be harder for them to catch, I think I'll have to tape her next time she's hyper and/or overly silly, and also when she's frustrated, and see if she has the same understanding watching it from the outside.

 

I'll have to buy Kuyper's book when the new version comes out, this is all so interesting, it's so much more involved and nuanced than I'd realized. Thanks so much for sharing what you've learned!

Hmm, that's interesting!  Maybe I've underestimated his ability to make the connections!  We'll see...

 

Btw, it's not a new edition but an actual 2nd book, not overlapping or repeating.

[Lecka]

That is helpful.  

 

For the kids who have it -- the Incredible 5-Point Scale (an older program) in our school district really IS an all-day-long thing, they really ARE getting a lot of help and it is not just a "here, look at this card, circle a number" thing at all.  But I can see why there is not a rush to implement a new program when it would need to be so comprehensive.  Like -- think of all the paras they have trained.  I am a parent and I have been to the parent night for it, along with a lot of other parents.  I can see not rushing in to Zones when we do have the Incredible 5-Point Scale.  Plus if there are kids who have been doing a number-based system for years, and then all of a sudden, it is changing to colors -- that might not be ideal.  

 

Here (in the school district) the 5-Point Scale is for anxiety and emotional regulation.  It does not include the sensory parts.  That is what Zones adds, from my understanding.  But I think there is good implementation of the 5-Point Scale here... and it sounds like good implementation is really key.  My son (who is not in the 5-Point Scale program at all) is part of the program they have for sensory (I am blanking on the name, but it is the one where kids identify their sensory state independently or with help if needed, and then do activities to get to "ready to learn") is in a good program for him right now.  

 

For the sensory program my son is in, and the 5-Point Scale, these are not viewed as things you finish or complete.  These are viewed as constant interventions.  Over time you want to teach the child skills for independence and reduce adult guidance and support and prompting as much as possible over time.  But it is expected that it will be a long process, lasting over years.

 

Separately, my son is totally not ready for Superflex.  It is used in our schools for 4th and up, plus some younger kids as appropriate.  But as a core focus it is for 4th and up (or for whatever age of kids are in Level 2 ---- if Level 2 is where kids' needs are best met, it does not matter what the age is, but my son will be in 3rd or 4th grade I expect before he goes there).  It is also for Level 2 and it is a "everyone uses this language who works in the Level 2 room" thing.  My son is not in Level 2.  He will be in Level 2 someday, but right now he is not.     

 

But anyway -- Rock Brain is huge in Superflex.  There is a ton for Rock Brain.  There are posters and I think there are little books.  He is one of the Unthinkables.  

 

I have only asides on this, I don't know much about it, but I hear about it at parent night also, and people love it.

 

But it is not appropriate for my son's age.  

 

We did get The Incredible Flexible You for him, though.  It is appropriate for him as far as understanding the books.  Some of the concepts are appropriate for him.  Some of the concepts are not appropriate.

 

For example "the group plan."  I got these books about a year ago.  "The group plan" was like -- "there is no way he is ready for this."  We can read the story, but he is not ready for the concept.

 

But now this year, his therapist thinks he is ready to start to implement some things from "the group plan" during Sunday School.  She is going to Sunday School with him right now, and the teacher says she can either do a "group plan" activity as part of Sunday School, or let a couple of kids go with her and my son to do a group plan activity.  It is like -- this is something that is starting up, but I expect it to take a long time for him.  

 

Separately -- yes, labeling emotional states or other states (is tired an emotion? is hungry an emotion? they are states but I think there is another word for them than emotional, I can't think of it right now) is supposed to really help kids to learn these things.  

 

You don't want kids to be stuck on the phase of "other people identify and regulate my emotional (etc) states for me" forever.  But you have to start with Square One!!!!!  We can't just wish our kids were ready for independence when maybe they are legitimately still at a point where they need more foundational help to develop and build up their skills, to get to the more independent phases.  

 

There is a process for "how do you do that."  You don't want to stay stuck on either "blame child, don't develop skills" or "recognize the child needs help and help the child, but not know how to teach the child skills and help the child to gradually transition to taking more and more responsibility and ownership of this task."  

 

My worry is basically the second worry.  I need to worry about "are we doing too much" and "can he be taking another baby step on his own."  Nobody thinks my son is "doing it on purpose," this is just not an issue that I have.  

 

But it is a huge concern that he not have too much done for him, that things are done for him without teaching him (maybe b/c it is very difficult and hard to know how), etc.  This is what I have to watch out for.  But yeah, I do expect all of this to be slow and gradual.  I just have to believe it is possible!  

 

I am not in the position of going "wow, we did 18 sessions, you mean it is not mastered?"  That is just not my situation, lol.  It is kind-of good for me to hear people like that, b/c what they have that is so important, is this faith "of course my child will learn these skills."  There is a lot to be said for that, when the alternative is "why bother, my child has this diagnosis where kids are not capable of x, y, or z."  Of course there is a middle place where parents are optimistic and realistic and look at their child and make really good choices and expectations based on their child.  

 

But if I have a weak side, it is the "can I really expect him to learn this?" and so then I benefit from the really confident people.  But they can benefit from me, too, if they are getting to the point where they will be disappointed if their child doesn't meet a time-table, even if they could look at the same information and be proud of progress their child is making.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Pinterest has clips of movies for Zones discussion work if you search under Zones of Regulation. A lot of people have the same idea about spinning wheels, etc.

[nature girl]

So I think you were implying, OhE, that it's impossible to really get the full benefit from Zones until a child has already worked on the social piece? I guess because it's hard to understand perspective-taking unless you've learned how to look at yourself from the outside? I bought Diary of a Social Detective last month, thinking I might be able to pare the ideas down to something we could use, but a lot of it seems directed at public school situations, and most is probably above DD's head at this point.

 

All the Superflex books look SO perfect for her though, exactly the kind of understanding she needs. Like I'd read the description and think, YES! This is her biggest problem!! Then look at the next title and think, YES! This is her other biggest problem! And this one! And this one! I'm sad she's not there yet and probably won't be for another couple of years. I do wonder though whether buying them for reading/discussion might be worthwhile even if she can't fully absorb the concepts yet.

 

I've also thought of getting The Incredible Flexible You, but it's so expensive! Maybe worth it though...Lecka, is it possible to get just the storybooks, or do you need the curriculum book as well?

[Guest]

nm

Edited August 12, 2017 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Lecka, I need to look at it more to understand.  Zones includes a lesson on the 5 point scale, and I think she suggests you use it *only* for problem solving (scale of problem).  The Zones can be positive and negative, all within a color, where the 5 point scale, I think, might be sort of negative as it goes higher.  So she's suggesting Zones become a framework that the other things (Superflex, 5 Point, etc.) plug into.  

 

For your point about the person determining it for them, I think she's trying to have it, from the beginning, be about self-monitoring.  The teacher/co-regulator is not supposed to just walk up to them and go you feel angry, you're in red zone.  There are supposed to be check-in sessions where the dc, over time, figures it out.  So she showed check-in videos where kids clearly had not figured it out and maybe were marking themselves in one zone when they were in another.  Then the teacher would call them back and help them discuss, asking what's up, why did they mark that, etc.  So it does seem like she's hitting your issue of the dc doing it for themselves vs. having the label assigned.  She was willing to leave it unclear, in fact, rather than assigning the label.  

 

That's interesting that your school is doing 5-Point so pervasively.  It's sort of complex, with gradations.  She didn't recommend it for youngers but actually recommended a modified, simplified version.  And it's not so much about right and wrong but just interesting to hear different ways people are doing things.  There are a lot of ways to rabbit trail this and apply it across the curriculum.  She showed applying it with literature, but to me videos would be fabulous for that.  And that makes sense that your school has a cohesive approach (this level uses these programs).  Zones is relatively new, which I didn't realize.

 

 

Pinterest has clips of movies for Zones discussion work if you search under Zones of Regulation. A lot of people have the same idea about spinning wheels, etc.

 

Thanks!  

 

 

So I think you were implying, OhE, that it's impossible to really get the full benefit from Zones until a child has already worked on the social piece? I guess because it's hard to understand perspective-taking unless you've learned how to look at yourself from the outside? I bought Diary of a Social Detective last month, thinking I might be able to pare the ideas down to something we could use, but a lot of it seems directed at public school situations, and most is probably above DD's head at this point.

 

All the Superflex books look SO perfect for her though, exactly the kind of understanding she needs. Like I'd read the description and think, YES! This is her biggest problem!! Then look at the next title and think, YES! This is her other biggest problem! And this one! And this one! I'm sad she's not there yet and probably won't be for another couple of years. I do wonder though whether buying them for reading/discussion might be worthwhile even if she can't fully absorb the concepts yet.

 

I've also thought of getting The Incredible Flexible You, but it's so expensive! Maybe worth it though...Lecka, is it possible to get just the storybooks, or do you need the curriculum book as well?

 

I just haven't had a chance yet to sort this out.  Kuypers suggested using kiddie lit (children's books) and had a number of suggestions.  The idea made a lot of sense.  I'm not sure it HAS to have therapy materials to be beneficial.  She envisioned a scenario where highly verbal kids like ours might start out in the middle and double back to expand.  So you could see it as a process of going back through the steps and expanding her application more and more.  (with fiction, with videos, etc.)

 

 

For self-regulation with my two I have found some of the approaches mentioned here, very successful.

https://autism.unt.edu/sites/default/files/Wehner_EmotionalRegulation.pdf

Posting in case they are useful to someone. I have also found teaching my boys that different emotional states are temporary and how to be more proactive vs reactive, very useful.

 

 

That's good stuff!  It's a lot like Zones, and Kuyper/Zones discusses SCERTS, Alert, etc.  I think there you're seeing the evolution of approaches, where one person takes all the ideas from the preceding practitioners and builds on them.  But yeah, that's definitely in the vein.  That's cool that it's working well for you.  And see that's something I wondered, whether it really *has* to be so complex, with 4 colors, blah blah.  I'm not sure it *has* to be.  That's how Kuypers did it, but there would be more ways.

[Guest]

And see that's something I wondered, whether it really *has* to be so complex, with 4 colors, blah blah. I'm not sure it *has* to be.

 

This was my main reason for deciding against buying the book at the time. I didn't feel it had to be so complex. Another is, I prefer linking straight to the emotions involved rather than having to possibly cause confusion between colors and emotions.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Guest

[kbutton]

I just haven't had a chance yet to sort this out.  Kuypers suggested using kiddie lit (children's books) and had a number of suggestions.  The idea made a lot of sense.  I'm not sure it HAS to have therapy materials to be beneficial.  She envisioned a scenario where highly verbal kids like ours might start out in the middle and double back to expand.  So you could see it as a process of going back through the steps and expanding her application more and more.  (with fiction, with videos, etc.)

 

This makes a lot of sense to me--presenting it and then looping back. 

[prairiewindmomma]

My ds has self-awareness of how he is feeling. For him, Zones has helped him make the connection of "I have xyz feeling and I can be proactive and do 123 to feel more calm and relaxed." Zones pairs really well with Greene's collaborative problem solving/Plan B work (livesinthebalance.org).  For ds, he would go to instant ultimate frustration and get beyond where Plan B conversations could happen.  Zones helps him pull back enough that we can have Plan B conversations.