3rd Grader Causing Lockdowns at Elementary School

[EmseB]

Has anyone seen this?  I know this area a little bit, but it's been years since I've been there.  Seems like the school doesn't want to get into a situation where they are on the news for calling the cops and handcuffing an 8 year old, but they also have no wherewithal to deal with this.  Hard to say what's going on without the district's comment, but I'm guessing something like RAD or ODD that the school just doesn't have the resources to manage.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Maybe if enough parents keep their kids home (and affect daily attendance and funding) the school will do something.

[Entropymama]

Articles like this are so vague that it's hard to know what's really happening. No sources, either, I note. For all we know it's a couple parents upset over some misbehavior and taking things out of proportion. 

[Seasider]

Yes the article is vague, but we once had a neighbor kid who fit this description. The school's plan (along with the parents, I assume), was [eta I should add that this plan was failing because, for whatever reason, the compliance to meds was sporadic, resulting in varied and unpredictable behaviors] heavy medication and mainstreaming the student. When he was is a sp ed class, he targeted kids who couldn't evade or defend themselves. My next door and other nearby neighbors had 4th graders in his classroom and last I heard of the situation, they were binding together to address the school. Many of their kids had been verbally assaulted and were terrified to be around him.

 

I understand parents with kids like this need help. But the rights of others to a peaceful, safe learning environment is important, too. Especially at 3rd grade! So young, so sad.

[EmseB]

Articles like this are so vague that it's hard to know what's really happening. No sources, either, I note. For all we know it's a couple parents upset over some misbehavior and taking things out of proportion. 

 

The kids talk specifically about what happened to them.  I'm not sure what you mean by no sources, since the crew is interviewing the kids and parents directly.

 

I will grant there's only one side of the story being told, but I think it's because the parents got fed up enough to go to the media to try and get something done.  Lockdowns do seem like extreme measures for a kid being loose in the school, but a kid being loose in the school does seem like a big deal.

 

On the other hand, I've known a kid like what the article is describing when I was growing up.  She was homeschooled, but some times all of us neighbor kids would stay inside because she was going on a bit of a tirade at her end of the cul-de-sac.

[PrincessMommy]

I agree that the article has little information.  It doesn't even touch on whether it's working with the parents/guardians or what.  

[Catwoman]

Why is the child still in that school if the teachers and administrators are not equipped to deal with him? It sounds like he must have some serious issues, and that he should be transferred to a school where the staff is skilled and experienced with students like him.

 

I don't blame the other parents for going public. It is not fair to their children, nor is it fair to the staff at the school, to have to try to deal with an out-of-control child. It is even more unfair to the child, because he clearly needs more help than the school can provide.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I wish all parents at all schools with violent kids behaving this way would keep their kids home until the school does something to make the learning environment safe and peaceful. Kids shouldn't have to put up with being scared of violent classmates.

[Southern Ivy]

Maybe if enough parents keep their kids home (and affect daily attendance and funding) the school will do something.

Sometimes, it's not that easy. Sometimes the district, the counselors, the psych hospital, the doctors, the teachers and the parents are doing everything they can, but it's just not enough. Sometimes, the only way to deal with a student like this is to send them to a boys/girls home per the doctor's suggestion because even the doctor is at the end of meds and suggestions that he can give. And sometimes, the only way to afford the boys/girls home is to voluntarily sign them over to the state because those homes are crazy expensive, but what parent wants to sign their kid away? 

 

I only say this because this article could have been written about my classroom last year. I was punched, I had things thrown at me, I had my own personal things purposely destroyed while the student looked at me and laughed. There were many days I worried about the safety of my kids. 

It's an incredibly hard situation to deal with and it's not always the school's fault or due to the lack of school involvement. 

 

I know my student was a meth baby and lived in a meth house for much of the child's toddler years. My student was on the highest level of medications - medications that would have knocked out an adult. Still, they did nothing for the student. 

When the tirades/fits/tantrums/whatever came on the student, it was like they were possessed. Eventually, my student was only allowed to come to school 2 hours a day, eventually building up to half a day. Even then there were massive blow ups and my room was destroyed on more than one occasion. 

 

Sometimes, it just is what it is and the whole situation sucks and there's not a perfect answer, because ultimately, there is a child who has major psychological, emotional, neurological, and physical issues that will probably never be fixed. 

[EmseB]

Sometimes, it's not that easy. Sometimes the district, the counselors, the psych hospital, the doctors, the teachers and the parents are doing everything they can, but it's just not enough. Sometimes, the only way to deal with a student like this is to send them to a boys/girls home per the doctor's suggestion because even the doctor is at the end of meds and suggestions that he can give. And sometimes, the only way to afford the boys/girls home is to voluntarily sign them over to the state because those homes are crazy expensive, but what parent wants to sign their kid away? 

 

I only say this because this article could have been written about my classroom last year. I was punched, I had things thrown at me, I had my own personal things purposely destroyed while the student looked at me and laughed. There were many days I worried about the safety of my kids. 

It's an incredibly hard situation to deal with and it's not always the school's fault or due to the lack of school involvement. 

 

I know my student was a meth baby and lived in a meth house for much of the child's toddler years. My student was on the highest level of medications - medications that would have knocked out an adult. Still, they did nothing for the student. 

When the tirades/fits/tantrums/whatever came on the student, it was like they were possessed. Eventually, my student was only allowed to come to school 2 hours a day, eventually building up to half a day. Even then there were massive blow ups and my room was destroyed on more than one occasion. 

 

Sometimes, it just is what it is and the whole situation sucks and there's not a perfect answer, because ultimately, there is a child who has major psychological, emotional, neurological, and physical issues that will probably never be fixed. 

 

I agree with everything you wrote here, but I still don't think that child should be in school.  I don't think an elementary school should be responsible for figuring out what to do with this child.  I don't think you (as a teacher) should have the responsibility of figuring out how to deal with violence like that. 

[Southern Ivy]

Why is the child still in that school if the teachers and administrators are not equipped to deal with him? It sounds like he must have some serious issues, and that he should be transferred to a school where the staff is skilled and experienced with students like him.

 

I don't blame the other parents for going public. It is not fair to their children, nor is it fair to the staff at the school, to have to try to deal with an out-of-control child. It is even more unfair to the child, because he clearly needs more help than the school can provide.

 

 

I wish all parents at all schools with violent kids behaving this way would keep their kids home until the school does something to make the learning environment safe and peaceful. Kids shouldn't have to put up with being scared of violent classmates.

 

I do agree.

My kids knew what to do, but it was not fair for them to have to miss as many lessons as they did because I had to evacuate my classroom. 

I wish more of my parents had expressed concern and gone to the school board or gone to the newspaper. 

My situation was semi-resolved by the end of the year. My co-workers? It just continually got worse and didn't get a band-aid type solution until she threatened to file assault charges. 

 

 I wish there were more schools to deal with these types of children. It's scary, but these issues seem to be getting more and more common. 

[Southern Ivy]

I agree with everything you wrote here, but I still don't think that child should be in school.  I don't think an elementary school should be responsible for figuring out what to do with this child.  I don't think you (as a teacher) should have the responsibility of figuring out how to deal with violence like that. 

:iagree: 100%

[Library Momma]

There was a boy like this in my sons grade.  He had a one on one para with him at all times because he was prone to violent outbursts like flipping tables and punching doors.  The first time he actually hurt another person the police were called and the boy was expelled.  The school provided a home tutor while they were searching for more appropriate placement for him and he now attends a regional school program better suited to meet his needs.

[Southern Ivy]

There was a boy like this in my sons grade.  He had a one on one para with him at all times because he was prone to violent outbursts like flipping tables and punching doors.  The first time he actually hurt another person the police were called and the boy was expelled.  The school provided a home tutor while they were searching for more appropriate placement for him and he now attends a regional school program better suited to meet his needs.

This is what should have happened at my school, but my principal was a lazy @ss. 

[itsheresomewhere]

Why is the child still in that school if the teachers and administrators are not equipped to deal with him? It sounds like he must have some serious issues, and that he should be transferred to a school where the staff is skilled and experienced with students like him.

 

I don't blame the other parents for going public. It is not fair to their children, nor is it fair to the staff at the school, to have to try to deal with an out-of-control child. It is even more unfair to the child, because he clearly needs more help than the school can provide.

Because the district will lose money if they put him in a program out of district.   You will not believe the amount of hoops you have to jump through to get a out of district placement. In my area, it really is about money and not about the best placement for the child.  

[Arcadia]

Why is the child still in that school if the teachers and administrators are not equipped to deal with him? It sounds like he must have some serious issues, and that he should be transferred to a school where the staff is skilled and experienced with students like him.

 

Sometimes parents are not willing to move their child to another school in the same district with more and better trained staff even if bussing was provided door to door because of social stigma/embarassment.

 

My oldest has an ex-classmate that would run around the classroom all day.  The child just can't sit for long. Another ex-classmate would walk on the tables and jump down during class time and books were on the students' tables.  That child has a teacher aide keeping an eye on him at all times but the aide doesn't have the right to restrain him from climbing up furniture or dancing on desks.  Not violent thankfully but distracting.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I still don't think that child should be in school. I don't think an elementary school should be responsible for figuring out what to do with this child. I don't think you (as a teacher) should have the responsibility of figuring out how to deal with violence like that.

You should have never been required to put up with that student. Regardless of the cause, students like that shouldn't be in a classroom interrupting the education of other kids. Enough is enough.

[SKL]

My kids' KG had a girl like that, but at least her antics were mostly contained to the KG room.  It didn't make for a great learning environment.

 

I honestly don't think there is much the schools can do about a child who is occasionally out of control.  It must be a very difficult situation for all involved.

 

I hope they can at least get an aide who can guide him so someplace safe when he has an outburst.

[Wabi Sabi]

The comments on that story make my head hurt. 

[catz]

If this article is accurate, this kid sounds like he could use some time doing in patient mental health work up and evaluation. I don't doubt the parents are having a hard time figuring this out and cannot get services. This gets back to having much more accessible mental health resources than re currently available.

[EmilyGF]

My friend was a para for a child who was inappropriately placed. The school is working on getting the kid out, but the family is suing every.single.step of the way. It can be a long road.

Emily

[Southern Ivy]

You should have never been required to put up with that student. Regardless of the cause, students like that shouldn't be in a classroom interrupting the education of other kids. Enough is enough.

I very nearly walked out. The only reason I stayed at this school is because our principal retired. So much better for me, but the same students from last year are back and raising hell at the intermediate school. 

It makes me sad because both are very smart, but due to behavior, can barely do 2nd grade math, can barely read, etc. 

[Murmer]

Its a lose lose situation...the classroom/teachers/students lose out because the kid is out of control but in many ways the schools hands are tied because they are legally required to educate all children even the ones like this AND they have to do it in the least restrictive environment which usually means main stream classroom.  Then there is the opposite side of the family which hopefully are trying their very best with this child but are burned out and don't know where to turn next.  If they make any money they have to use private insurance which can be very expensive or pray they can eventually qualify for a Medicaid waiver which takes extreme efforts and the family has to have time to fill out all the paperwork.  No one wins and least of all the child who is out of control and badly in need of help for which there is little or none available to them due to inadequacies in mental health (which there is a whole thread about right now on this forum).  

[Southern Ivy]

Its a lose lose situation...the classroom/teachers/students lose out because the kid is out of control but in many ways the schools hands are tied because they are legally required to educate all children even the ones like this AND they have to do it in the least restrictive environment which usually means main stream classroom.  Then there is the opposite side of the family which hopefully are trying their very best with this child but are burned out and don't know where to turn next.  If they make any money they have to use private insurance which can be very expensive or pray they can eventually qualify for a Medicaid waiver which takes extreme efforts and the family has to have time to fill out all the paperwork.  No one wins and least of all the child who is out of control and badly in need of help for which there is little or none available to them due to inadequacies in mental health (which there is a whole thread about right now on this forum).  

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :iagree:

[zoobie]

I wish all parents at all schools with violent kids behaving this way would keep their kids home until the school does something to make the learning environment safe and peaceful. Kids shouldn't have to put up with being scared of violent classmates.

If the child is enrolled, the parent can't just not send him. That's truancy. If they pull the child from school, they no longer get services. It's a Catch-22. The school districts should have an escalation plan for services for kids who need intense help.

[Word Nerd]

If the child is enrolled, the parent can't just not send him. That's truancy. If they pull the child from school, they no longer get services. It's a Catch-22. The school districts should have an escalation plan for services for kids who need intense help.

 

I think she's talking about the parents of the kids being affected, not the parents of the problem student. From the linked story: 

CLAYTON (CBS SF) — Some parents at an elementary school in the Contra Costa County have stopped sending their kids to class because they say the school has become dangerous because of a third grader.

[Tap]

Parent of a difficult 3rd grader here! 

 

Let me give this discussion a little perspective:

 

DD started weekly behavior therapy at 2yo, and except for about 12 months of time, she has been in it ever since.  That is 250 sessions of BT with people who are considered Highly Qualified and have year long waiting lists in our area (largish city). 

 

DD has had the same in OT, with over 250 private sessions, plus weekly consults at school for 3 years.  Her OT has worked through some sensory issues but helps dd learn to calm herself down, when her body is out of control.  

 

DD has had a psychiatrist since she was 4yo and sees him monthly, but I often talk to him on the phone in between.  She has had about 50 sessions with him.  She is HEAVILY medicated, but you wouldn't guess it because her body seems to absorb the meds like water.  They help, but not enough.  (I work in pharmacy, so please don't suggest med changes, I understand this part better than most).  He considers her one of his most difficult to help clients.  

 

DD is drug affected from her birth mom, has a bad set of genes on both sides of her family, and is considered to have Aspergers, Anxiety, Sensory Processing Disorder, ADHD, and is suspected to have Bipolar as well.

 

She has has Lots of testing by highly qualified people, including a full nero-psych eval, Behavioral Assessments, and visual field tests. She is considered low/normal IQ and all of her other issues are primarily behavioral or sensory.  

 

We live in a nice house, in a nice suburb.  She has 2 parents in the home, and two older siblings to guide her.  Our home is mellow, stable and loving. 

 

 

 

 

DD was in the same commercial daycare from 5mo (when she came to live with us--she is my great-niece) and 4yo.  She had scratched, hit, head butted, kicked, and destroyed the classroom enough times that she was finally kicked out of this daycare.

 

She started a new daycare at 4yo that takes special needs/high behavior needs kids. Within the first few months, even they said she would have to have a one-on-one staff for her to be there.  We have been through 3 personal staff (trained special needs staff) who have burned out in 4 years after working with her.....only working half days (after school and on school holidays}.  The daycare almost kicked her out, but took her back reluctantly because my 21yo son is now her one-on-one staff and he can just take her home on her worst days.  She is on state paid daycare, so the day care only gets paid $25 per day for her care. They allow her to stay out of love for her, and mercy for me, not to make money.

 

In kindergarten, I went to the school with all of this information.  They knew her history, I had full blown reports for them from 2 therapists, 1 psychiatrist, and the experiences at 2 well regarded day cares.  They said none of it was done by their doctors, so it essentially didn't count. They would have to wait until she demonstrated her problems and they would start from scratch on figuring it all out. The low of the year was when she stabbed a para in the hand with a pencil.  She hit,kicked, bit, spit, scratched, head butted, and generally terrorized her classroom teachers.She ripped down displays, ruined personal  items, destroyed furniture and ripped up peoples clothing.  She didn't really target kids much, mainly adults. But when she didn't get the response she wanted from an adult, she would move on to kids.  She knew Exactly what she was doing.  It was a daily occurrence for her entire classroom to have to be moved to another room because she was raging.  I asked the school to mover her to a behavior support program, but they refused saying they had to try all the alternative interventions first.  I went in before school started in September and asked for help for her, and was put off  and putt off, time and again. After 8 months, she was to the point that the principal was her one-with-one at school for parts of the day. They finally approved a para one-with-one for her for the last month of kindergarten, but no staff would take the assignment for more than a day or two. They would stop taking the job after they saw what they were in for. So, while the school district was willing to pay for staff finally......no one would take the job.

 

The next year, she changed schools and they agreed to put her into a behavior support class room.  She was in the class for over a year.  In the first year, she was put into the isolation closet about 20 times (close to once a week)....but the beginning of the second year, things were so bad, she was in the isolation closet daily and sometimes, multiple times per day. Just as an example of her behaviors.... She was suspended one time for whipping another boy so hard with a jump rope, that it left a welt on his back - through his thick sweatshirt.  (The boy was in the same behavior classroom, so the parents didn't press charges...they understood that that would only create legal hoops for us a parents to deal with, and not change the situation).  She bloodied teachers on a daily basis. There were numerous times that she escaped the teachers grasp and would take off running from the campus.  She once escaped, ran about 300 feet, and  laid down in the middle of the road.  Leaving the teachers to try to drag her back to school through a deep ditch on and screaming through the hall ways.

 

We finally got approval to mover her to a therapeutic day school in the beginning of 2nd grade, but they were full.  It was a couple of months until they had an opening, so the school got to the point that they started her day in the isolation closet.  She had a table, chair and teacher with her in the closet, so that when she blew up they could remove the table and chair, without having to touch her.  For 2 months, I only had  her go to school half of a day.  I kept her home and took her in after lunch.  We didn't want to pull her completely out, because then she would start to realize that she could control if she went to school or not.  School had to be non-optional.

 

 

 

I can guarantee that the teachers didn't want her in their classroom.  That it isn't about wanting her seat money. Principals didn't want to deal with her.  The school in general didn't want to deal with her.  But, the law give all kids equal access to an education.  Not just the perfect, easy, mellow, attentive ones.  EVERY child, and since she was the anomaly in the program, they didn't have a way to provide a safe space for just one student.   They had to wait for a spot to be available in the existing program and go through all the paper work to get her there.  (different school district that takes kids like her).  She and kids like her cost over $20,000 per year to educate.  Based on her acceptance in this program, she is considered one of the top 5 kids with the worst behaviors in grades k-4 across 5 school districts.  That is not the top 5 list any parent wants to be on.   If she can't get it together at this school, the next step if full inpatient care. 

 

I can't home school her, because I barely have the mental stamina to deal with her after school, let alone try to deal with her on a one-on-one basis ever day.  Despite her being a ward of the state, she still costs me about $1000 a month to raise. She gets $200-300 per month to live on from the state. I pay for the rest out of pocket.  She doesn't' qualify for any extra services, nor SSI, because her issues are considered behavioral, not medical in nature. I don't have the money to pay for a private tutor.

 

She has to stay in school to get any kind of an education.  Otherwise she will be a 30yo person with impulse control issues with the education of a 1st grader.  That will be worse in the long run, not better.  I have to keep her in school, so they can try to find a solution for her.  If I pull her out, they aren't working to find a solution.  Home bound instruction, won't teach her to deal with a classroom or the real world.......but it all comes at a high cost to all the other kids and I know that.  :0(

 

 

SO, when you are making judgement about the school, teachers and parents remember that sometimes we really are doing Everything we can possibly do.  Sometimes the child really doesn't respond to normal techniques to control behavior.  

 

 

 

As far as the article....my guess about the 'lock down' is just that the teachers are told to secure their doors and put the paper over the windows so the kid can't peer inside.  Then they go on about thier day.  It is just a way to allow the rooms to be legally locked and keep the child from going into the rooms.   It is to protect the other kids and to limit the areas he can go into.   That is A LOT less traumatizing to the other kids, than to have him burst into a room and go after one of them or destroy their classroom too. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think she's talking about the parents of the kids being affected, not the parents of the problem student.

Yes, I mean the parents of the behaving kids keep them home, as a group, to make the point that they won't tolerate their kids having to suffer through these out of control classmates anymore.

[zoobie]

I think she's talking about the parents of the kids being affected, not the parents of the problem student. From the linked story:

CLAYTON (CBS SF) — Some parents at an elementary school in the Contra Costa County have stopped sending their kids to class because they say the school has become dangerous because of a third grader.

Ah, okay. I don't think legally those parents have a choice either unless they withdraw their kids. Homeschooling and private schooling aren't viable options for everyone. Awful situation for the kids and parents.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Tap, I don't want to quote in case you want to delete personal information later, but I do have a question:

 

If the law requires equal access to education, what does it mean when one child's access to education removes the possibility of education for all the other children in the class who cannot be taught anything while he or she is attacking teachers and classmates? The child in need has not been able to access education, and neither has anyone else. The educator has been rendered unable to teach...

 

I'm really not trying to imply that I know the answer or have even the slightest clue what should be done in a public school setting. I'm just saying that from 'way out here, it seems as if the law contradicts itself.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Tap, nobody is saying that you or this kid's parents have slacked off. But the other kids at the 3rd grader's school deserve a safe education, even if it means that he needs to be removed.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Does anyone else wonder if some of these situations are made worse because nobody is allowed to touch the kids? I am not advocated physical punishment, but I can't imagine parenting or teaching a difficult child if I were never allowed to touch them in any way.

[Entropymama]

The kids talk specifically about what happened to them.  I'm not sure what you mean by no sources, since the crew is interviewing the kids and parents directly.

 

I will grant there's only one side of the story being told, but I think it's because the parents got fed up enough to go to the media to try and get something done.  Lockdowns do seem like extreme measures for a kid being loose in the school, but a kid being loose in the school does seem like a big deal.

 

On the other hand, I've known a kid like what the article is describing when I was growing up.  She was homeschooled, but some times all of us neighbor kids would stay inside because she was going on a bit of a tirade at her end of the cul-de-sac.

 

Maybe there was a second page I missed? I apologize if that was the case. And to clarify, I don't mean to say that these situations never happen - I'm actually very interested in this conversation - but that this particular article was very vague. I do wonder what the schools can do; as we've noted, they have the legal obligation to educate every child. 

 

Does anyone live in a district where there is a solution that works? I don't know much about IEPs, but I have a few friends whose kids have them, and the overwhelming comment I've heard is that they are hard to get, and hard to get the teachers to adhere to. I've also heard from teachers that they're hard to access. Because of privacy concerns, some teachers aren't even told their students have IEPs, they have to wait for the parents to let them know. 

[Entropymama]

Tap, nobody is saying that you or this kid's parents have slacked off. But the other kids at the 3rd grader's school deserve a safe education, even if it means that he needs to be removed.

 

But removed to where? If there is nowhere for the child to go, what do they do? 

 

Does anyone else wonder if some of these situations are made worse because nobody is allowed to touch the kids? I am not advocated physical punishment, but I can't imagine parenting or teaching a difficult child if I were never allowed to touch them in any way.

 

I agree with this 100%. Appropriate touching is actually necessary for kids. What a conundrum. 

[catz]

But removed to where? If there is nowhere for the child to go, what do they do? 

 

 

I agree with this 100%. Appropriate touching is actually necessary for kids. What a conundrum. 

 

:iagree:   Right now there's not a good way for school staff to escalate this kid to the type of intensive, inpatient evaluation that might actually accomplish something.  The parents are at the end of their road.  The other families are at their end of their own roads.  I think there need to be hard, fast, and immediate resources for kids that are violent in the classroom.  There are not enough resources.  The average school psych or therapist is not at all equipped to deal with this level of problem.  It is SUPER hard to get intensive mental health help for kids. 

[Tap]

Tap, I don't want to quote in case you want to delete personal information later, but I do have a question:

 

If the law requires equal access to education, what does it mean when one child's access to education removes the possibility of education for all the other children in the class who cannot be taught anything while he or she is attacking teachers and classmates? The child in need has not been able to access education, and neither has anyone else. The educator has been rendered unable to teach...

 

I'm really not trying to imply that I know the answer or have even the slightest clue what should be done in a public school setting. I'm just saying that from 'way out here, it seems as if the law contradicts itself.

I get it, I really do!  And I agree. That is why I fought to get her moved to a different program for so long, starting in kindergarten. The school was the one dragging their feet.  Insisting on their own evaluations. Insisting on trying everything possible to keep her in gen ed.  They started the year with a kid who was put in the isolation closet once every week or two, and ended up creating a situation, where she spent her day in isolation.  All of her private therapists agree, the schools protocols made it worse, not better.  

 

The school district rules dictated what had to happen.  Not me, the principal, the teacher, the parents of the other kids....then when they finally did relent and decide to move her, there was no  room in the classroom designed for kids like her. 

 

That is what I am saying, don't blame the individuals.  Individuals are working our butts off to keep these kids safe, but at the end of the day, someone has to come up with the money to educate them.  The schools, the classrooms and the teachers for these students aren't cheap. 

 

 

 

[Tap]

Does anyone else wonder if some of these situations are made worse because nobody is allowed to touch the kids? I am not advocated physical punishment, but I can't imagine parenting or teaching a difficult child if I were never allowed to touch them in any way.

There are authorizations to have 'holds' done on certain kids, in certain circumstances.  

 

The laws generally dictate that a Person has to be in immediate danger, not just hypothetical danger.

 

 

  ie, if a student picks up a laptop and starts to throw it, the staff cannot restrain the student, because the laptop is not a person. If the student was going to throw the laptop into the general direction of kids (but isn't really likely to directly hit them), same thing, can't restrain because a person isn't necessarily in danger.    But if the student was specifically aiming at a staff or student with the laptop, then the staff can restrain the student, because a person is in danger. 

[chiguirre]

And sometimes, the only way to afford the boys/girls home is to voluntarily sign them over to the state because those homes are crazy expensive, but what parent wants to sign their kid away? 

The other problem is that the parent can lose custody of their other children or end up under CPS supervision. It's a terrible situation to be in. The only positive is that once a child turns 18 the parents are no longer legally responsible for them.

 

I'd also point out that as violent as a kid may be at school, it's very likely that his family faces far worse every.single.day. They can never go out as a family, have a nice Christmas, have a sibling's friend come over to their house. EVER. Their other kids know to run and lock themselves in their room when an outburst starts. That's their reality every single minute of their lives.

[TechWife]

 

SO, when you are making judgement about the school, teachers and parents remember that sometimes we really are doing Everything we can possibly do.  Sometimes the child really doesn't respond to normal techniques to control behavior.  

 

Amen and lots of  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: .

[Bluegoat]

It seems that money school districts have taken it as a principle that the best place for all kids is in the mainstreamed classrooms, unless it is actually impossible to keep kids there.

 

I understand where that impulse came from, as the previous principle which said all non-typical kids should be separated also wasn't all that useful.  But my sense is that the new principle is actually become something of a problem - it just isn't a true generalization, and it ends up impeding finding the best way to provide the best education possible to each individual child.  There are just too many variables IMO to make an assumption that most of the time the regular classroom will be best, and I don't think that is just about what the child's diagnosis is.  It may also relate to the types of schools that are in the area, the class sizes, the distance from home, and the child's personality.  Some kids might be better off provided a tutor in a home care situation for part of the day, but many people seem so wedded to an institutional school setting that doesn't seem to be an acceptable solution.

[Guest]

I'd have a very hard time, even as a teacher, not calling the cops if the child was hurting other children and there was nothing else to do. Their hands are tied and that's not okay. At all. Cuffs or not, as a parent I stop caring when normal interventions and correction from the school aren't working. If it takes cuffs or restraints to prevent this kid from hurting fellow students and to give the district a wake up call, so be it.

 

Sometimes escalating physical danger seems to finally allow for the appropriate resources to be devoted for care. It's like it isn't serious enough until someone is actually hurt. It makes me so sad for the families involved, that it takes real damage to actually get the right level of care put in place, even if everyone around the kid can see how needful a one on one aid or private tutoring is from the getgo.

[Farrar]

Tap, thank you for giving your perspective.

 

All kids deserve an education. Talking about a child who is clearly in profound need of services not being in school is just baffling to me. I really hope all the people who posted here meant instead that the child in the article should be provided with a different school or should be part of different program and not in a mainstream classroom at this time, not that he should not be in school at all. I get that he's interfering with the other kids' safety and education, but why must the conversation immediately be "kick that kid out of school" and not "get that kid some help."

 

While none of that behavior sounded good, I also thought that the language used about it was a little strong. He threw things and yelled. Um, yeah, angry, out of control 8 yos will do that. This was not a kid with a knife or other such weapon, he didn't set anything on fire. He apparently has really, really bad tantrums. Honestly, I think most elementary schools should have someone trained to deal with kids having really bad tantrums and throwing stuff. At least when I was teaching, there were special certifications for being able to safely restrain kids in situations like that. While this school obviously went a different route (the media? to shame the family? I can only hope the story was brought by a family at the school and not the school itself...), I feel like this is more of schools abdicating their responsibility to discipline kids. (And, ugh, I'm not a fan of the word discipline, but I think it applies here.) Many schools just call the police when this stuff happens. But this is difficult children. There have always been difficult children. There will always be difficult children. They deserve an education too. Schools have to find a way to serve them, isolate them when necessary, help them get better when they can, and not doing anything clearly isn't the answer, the school to prison pipeline isn't the answer. It's got to be actually engaging with these kids, even though it's hard.

[EmseB]

Tap, thank you for giving your perspective.

 

All kids deserve an education. Talking about a child who is clearly in profound need of services not being in school is just baffling to me. I really hope all the people who posted here meant instead that the child in the article should be provided with a different school or should be part of different program and not in a mainstream classroom at this time, not that he should not be in school at all. I get that he's interfering with the other kids' safety and education, but why must the conversation immediately be "kick that kid out of school" and not "get that kid some help."

 

I hesitate on commenting on individual situations, but the kid in profound need of services isn't getting an education in school.  And they are preventing other kids from getting their education.

 

Yes, I mean they need to be in a different setting, and sometimes an academic education comes years down the road after therapies and other types of things are provided, depending on the trauma involved.  Academics can't be taught when someone is so violent or has such anger issues that they can't sit at a desk for any length of time without exploding.  The kid obviously needs help, but I don't think school is where that help should come from every single time, no matter what the issues are.  I don't think that is really the purpose or purview of schools in general to be psychologists, wardens, disciplinarians (I mean, a little reasonable discipline obviously, but a 3rd grade tantrum?  That involves running around the school, throwing garbage cans and punching people?  Destroying classroom in violent rages? No.  That is not the school's job.).  I get providing services related to teaching academics, but I do think there are cases where something besides academic services has to be in done before a kid can sit in a classroom and learn.  I mean we're talking about scenarios where the kid has a dedicated para (one-on-one) in a dedicated room all by themselves and for what?  Is that child getting an education there?  And the other defenseless kids in the sp ed room get targeted?  Or other kids just have to deal when their classroom and supplies are destroyed?  When they feel threatened at place they are required to be for 30 hours/week?

 

I think that removing the kid from school, sometimes, is often going to be a step in "getting that kid some help".

 

And the school's liability being what it is, and the national poopstorm that occurs when a teacher puts their hands on a child to restrain them or calls the cops, I can see how they feel they are between a rock and a hard place when a kid throws a violent tantrum.  I mean, based on what Tap said, I kid can ruin thousands of dollars of equipment and teachers still aren't allowed to physically restrain the child.

 

Honestly, I know we are a board of academics, but when I think of kids who are dealing with stuff like this, I feel like school should be the least of concerns.  Being in a school should not be the priority.  An academic education should not be the priority.  And I think that's why it's sort of a shame that we've pushed all of these resources and dealing with these things on to school systems.

[Reefgazer]

Par for the course here in Norfolk.  Behavior problems that are allowed to remain in the mainstream classroom is just another reason on my list of why we are no longer in public school.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I really hope all the people who posted here meant instead that the child in the article should be provided with a different school or should be part of different program and not in a mainstream classroom at this time, not that he should not be in school at all.

Yes, I meant that the boy in the article (or other violent kids) should be removed from that school if he won't behave. They should give him a chance in some other setting or a home tutor if needed. But the safety of other students needs to come first.

[chiguirre]

Just a couple of quick comments. The police here in Houston won't transport a child under 9, so calling the police on this kid might not help at all.

 

A TX Education Agency accredited residential program charges $500/day. That's $180,000/year. That's why kids remain in regular public schools instead of the level of care that they need.

 

Truancy laws apply to special ed students. The parents can't just keep their kid home unless they're homeschooling.

[EmseB]

Something bugs me about the framing of "the residential treatment centers are expensive, so they have to be in a mainstream public school classroom and the school has to figure out how to deal with the fallout". I agree public assistance is often/probably necessary, but it doesn't follow to me that the school should be responsible in the meantime. That doesn't seem reasonable to expect that of a school. I understand the school being the conduit for academic services, but not even remotely able or equipped to get help for a child in this situation.

[TechWife]

It seems that money school districts have taken it as a principle that the best place for all kids is in the mainstreamed classrooms, unless it is actually impossible to keep kids there.

 

 

 

Providing education in the least restrictive environment possible is part of IDEA. However, IDEA does not require all students be placed in a regular classroom. Schools must document the reasons for their placement in the IEP.  Schools must have a full range of placement options available to them and must also inform parents, in writing, which placements were considered and why they were deemed inappropriate. You can find more information on IDEA here. 

[chiguirre]

Something bugs me about the framing of "the residential treatment centers are expensive, so they have to be in a mainstream public school classroom and the school has to figure out how to deal with the fallout". I agree public assistance is often/probably necessary, but it doesn't follow to me that the school should be responsible in the meantime. That doesn't seem reasonable to expect that of a school. I understand the school being the conduit for academic services, but not even remotely able or equipped to get help for a child in this situation.

Look, public assistance is ABSOLUTELY necessary. We are well off by pretty much any measure, but $180,000 would eat up ALL of dh's take home pay and we would have to try to get by on his bonus (and heaven help us if oil is at $50/barrel). If we can't do it, literally no one not named Gates or Walton can.

 

It would be better if schools weren't responsible for caring for kids with developmental delays but that's the way the system is structured. Parents of kids with special needs will oppose any change in this system because we've seen what happens when states closed their truly awful mental hospitals. The patients were not given better, community-based services. They became homeless or were imprisoned. We'd rather not mess up something that kinda, sorta works for most kids.

 

The system does work pretty well for kids with more moderate needs. Geezle enjoys going to school and I'm reasonably pleased with the education he gets. I'd like to see more math and reading skills, but we can make up for that at home. The life skills and job training are well done and would be hard for me to do because I'm mom. GW would be a disaster in public school. We are very, very fortunate that insurance covers his ABA therapy center. If it didn't, he'd be the kid who injures others. He's 6'1" and 180 pounds of pure muscle. He'd injure a lot of people before he'd get that $180,000/year placement. (And to put this in perspective, GW is actually one of the less aggressive kids at his center. He doesn't kick, punch or bite. But, if you scare him or upset him or even just startle him, he'll push you and you will fall because it's like being hit by a linebacker. He needs a residential placement where he'll have a routine and a familiar, non-changing environment that he can navigate with his limited language. A house with two other kids is not that place, but our options are limited until he's 18.)

[QueenCat]

 

SO, when you are making judgement about the school, teachers and parents remember that sometimes we really are doing Everything we can possibly do.  Sometimes the child really doesn't respond to normal techniques to control behavior.  

 

 

Thank you so much for sharing, and reminding us that we usually don't know the real background. Judging is so hurtful when the overwhelming majority of parents are doing the best that they can for their child.