Homeschool space with ASD

[PeterPan]

I had been wanting to share how we're working now with ds who is turning 7.  Here's the link to pics  https://www.flickr.com/gp/schoolonthehill/2a7So7 I tried to label each picture in detail, so you can see the thought process.

 

Here's where all the visual schedules and materials came from  Christine Reeve on Teachers Pay Teachers.

                                                 I Can Stay Calm: Social Narratives and Visual Supports for Autism (SPECIAL ED)                                            

                                                 Autism Pre-K - Elementary Classroom Visual Bundle Solid Colors (special ed)                                            ,

                                                 Structured Work System Starter Kit for Autism--Elementary Version                                            

                                                 Morning Meeting Starter Kit*Preschool*Elementary (Autism; Special Ed.)                                            .

 

I'm sure the structures will evolve as we work together.  Feel free to post your spaces and show how you work together and structures that make the process go better.   :)

 

 

 

[kbutton]

It looks like you've given him a reason to stay seated--he knows what to expect, everything is there, and he has some choice as well as a place to retreat. Pretty cool! I like the tablecloth--it probably helps with noise on the hard surface, and I imagine it makes manipulatives a lot less noisy and slippery.

 

Does it bother him to have maps and things on the wall? I ask that not to be critical but because stuff on the wall distracts my son. He loves it, but it sucks his attention away and gets overstimulating quickly. I would have to cover it up when it's not in use. 

[nature girl]

I love this! What a treat to get to see inside your school life. I especially liked the pic of the independent work table...I'd been meaning to buy the Work System schedule cards after you'd suggested it, and was trying to figure out the best way to use them to keep us both on task. Organizing that way and showing progress to a reward is such a fabulous idea. Thank you so much for sharing!

[Lecka]

Very cool!!!!!

[Guest]

Looks good OhE! Good for you! You have set up a comfortable learning space for your boy :)

 

I'm still working on what I want to incorporate and have not taken any pics since I changed the space around. We have his train table that he uses for independent play/ work. I don't mind where he sits if it helps him focus. He has our manipulatives/ toys/ blocks etc in that corner. His Kallax 4x4 is next to that space. Another corner has my Expedit 4×4 with the desk attachment. We have the computer he and I share on it. Next to that we have the Gerton/ Finnvard, which we also share for now. He has the Ingolf junior chair to reach the desk and table. He also has a smaller chair but was not using the small table so we got rid of it and just kept the chair. He uses the lower chair with his Melissa & Doug Wooden Project Workbench.

 

I'll try to take some pics when I have the chance. For now I'm starting with a basic school schedule and will be adding as we go based on what we are working on and what I feel we need.

[Guest]

Oh, and his Lomsk is also in there for reading or whatever other use he wants it for.

[PeterPan]

It looks like you've given him a reason to stay seated--he knows what to expect, everything is there, and he has some choice as well as a place to retreat. Pretty cool! I like the tablecloth--it probably helps with noise on the hard surface, and I imagine it makes manipulatives a lot less noisy and slippery.

 

Does it bother him to have maps and things on the wall? I ask that not to be critical but because stuff on the wall distracts my son. He loves it, but it sucks his attention away and gets overstimulating quickly. I would have to cover it up when it's not in use. 

Hmm, good questions!  You're reading this correctly, that the visual schedules have helped *me* too.  They're very conceptual, not fragmented the way our WTM education junk tends to be.  Typically we get into our heads oh I want to try this and this and...  And the visual schedule, using the Chris Reeve categories and not adding, forces me to be really TIGHT.  So now we have Teacher Table, bam, and we'll have whatever is a sane amount of time for that (30 min LA, another session for math), and it's not going to be more than that.  So I can put any materials I want in my LA bin, but reality is we sit down, work one card worth of time, and it's DONE.  It's very concrete.  It has been good discipline for BOTH of us.  

 

With so many things we could work on, the cards help us limit our goals.  Even he, if given choices, just wants to do SO many things.  It's really fun to hand him the notebook and see how unburnished his love for learning is, that when he sees all these options he's like YES let's do this and this and this...  That's fun!  But the cards let us quantify it.  So if that helps, that might be part of it.  But even before, like when we were doing Barton at the dining table (a normal place to work with a dc), we were setting a timer, using rewards, doing sensory/movement breaks.  Even with all that clear structure and support, he was still bolting.  Like he'd just be there, and POOF he was gone!  Now, he's there, unless he's like flipping out, like literally flipping over the couch and out, lol.  But it just communicates to his brain sit down, chill, you can stay.  And it's tight enough that if he moves TOO much he'd actually have a problem, which further restrains him.  There's enough space for a ball there, btw.  Sometimes we push the chair over and let him sit on a ball.  It can't roll anywhere, because it's pinned in.  :D

 

Hmm, stuff on the wall.  I'm a little crunchy about that myself.  Because it's in an open area, I'm not sure the calendar and map are any more interesting than the patterns on the curtains, the hems of the curtains (things I sit studying), the things out the window, etc.  So if you're asking if we'd get even MORE control in a dedicated room, THAT is an interesting point.  Our space is sort of open and the basement is quite open.  I'm not sure I'm in a position to provide that right now.  I'd have to think about it.  There might come a time when that was a wise change.  It would involve taking down a bed to take over a bedroom.  Right now we like having that for guests. I can keep it in mind.  Right now we already push the limit of what is age-typical for amount of time we're spending doing school.  Like even though he has a bunch of SLDs, it's not like I'm trying to do 4 hours of heavy formal a day, kwim?  He'll have an hour (or a little more) at the table, a half hour of real alouds and calendar time, 1/2 hour on the floor doing something we pick together (games, GEMS, Knex, etc) and then his things like nature walks.  That's really age-appropriate.  But I could see if he were like your older ds, needing several more hours a day of formal work, that might be an issue.  Environmental control could step up there.

 

The ASD classrooms I see online and have seen in person are fascinating.  They tend to be under done visually, with very limited visual distractions, so they're very calm and serene.  The environmental control, using space to communicate the plan, seems consistent across levels.  It was a real challenge for me to think about how I could create that environmental control, having different locations for each thing (independent vs. with teacher, games vs. sitting, etc.) in a situation where we had never planned for that.  We had just always assumed we'd homeschool in the homeschool room.  We have one downstairs in the basement, lol.  It has just since morphed into a sewing area for dd and the wild stuff she does.  She has really taken it over.  I thought about taking over a bedroom or a corner of a bedroom.  If that time comes where he can't function like this and stay focused, we could move.  I've never even stayed the same way two years in a row with dd, lol.  It's fun to rearrange and change how we're doing things to match the new things they're doing.  :)

[PeterPan]

I love this! What a treat to get to see inside your school life. I especially liked the pic of the independent work table...I'd been meaning to buy the Work System schedule cards after you'd suggested it, and was trying to figure out the best way to use them to keep us both on task. Organizing that way and showing progress to a reward is such a fabulous idea. Thank you so much for sharing!

You're welcome!  That's why I finally made the pics.  I had been meaning to do it.  It just took me so much time and sort of blew my mind when I started reading.  I couldn't figure out how all these things worked.  Like if you had this system and that system (if/then charts, morning meeting, work systems, visual schedules), did you use ONE??  It was only when I printed them and realized oh, you actually use them all, but they sort of interweave.  So I wanted to let people see that happening, where the break kit weaves into the visual schedule.  The visual schedule reminds us to go do our Independent Table, and when we sit for Independent work it has its own system.  

 

It's sort of complex and crazy and sane all at once, lol.  What it more really is is that everything you do needs lists and further supports.  Nuts, he even wants lists for getting dressed after swim lessons!  Seriously.  And the more we do, the more it seems to click in his mind and be this tool that he's craving to make himself more independent.  That's fabulous.  That's what we want.  When the kid starts making his own list and points out if you'd help him, he could be more independent, that's amazing.

 

I don't know if I said this in the notes, but the point of the Independent work is Teacher Control.  The concept there is we're getting into their head: I do what I'm told, I do what the teacher tells me.  This has been wacky hard for him.  His theory was: I obey Daddy, and I comply with anyone else if I feel like it.   :svengo: So there's never this thought of oh this is busywork, I'm wasting time having him do this and it's also not about what academics we cover.  Remember, for it to be *independent* it basically has to be on the easy side, almost review, gently pleasant.  So like I gave him a 25 piece puzzle and he freaked out.  I had to come over and get him calmed down and work it through with him.  That's not independent.  But a coloring sheet where it says color the spaces with B blue, the spaces with G green, the spaces with Y yellow, where he has been shown how to do that, that can be independent.  I try to put a variety of things in his bins, so something to work on fine motor (every time, every time), a book of mazes, a book of dot to dots, something he has to color (witty, like with a code or something), and then a puzzle.  So I'm hitting therapy targets there, but my REAL goal is just teacher control, plain and simple.  He needs it in his head that he does what he's told.  And, frankly, he needs the chance to be independent.  It's not healthy for him not to be able to do things without me.  I'm much more aggressive about setting him up for that, knowing that he can't make things happen for himself the way dd always did.  The ability to do SOMETHING for himself is an important deal.  And maybe his gap on that isn't as much as some kids, fine.  I'm just saying I see it.  We work on it all day with can you dress yourself, can you make yourself breakfast, can you...  Don't do things for them that they can begin to do for themselves with support.

 

Speaking of rewards, she has a free reward/token kit and an even snazzier paid one.                                                   Thumbs Up: Token Systems for Behavior Management (autism / special education)                                              I printed it and laminated and haven't gotten started using it.  It blew my mind just to get all this stuff figured out!  It took time for us to work into it, building slowly, explaining what the pictures meant, learning how to use it.  I wanted it to be natural, not something we turn on and off.  Like if it's late and we're having problems, out comes the if/then chart or over we walk to our table with The Plan.  It took time to work into it.  He has seen the Token chart and likes it.  We just haven't started it yet.  We have guests this week, so it won't be this week either.  Then token charts are cool because you can use it to incentivize ANYTHING.  Like I have in my mind what I *want* to incentivize is working The Plan.  I have some theories on that too.  Anyways, to me even simple things like going right to the plan to start the plan, that's good to incentivize with tokens.  It doesn't have to be simply doing Teacher Table, because maybe he's not doing teacher table when I want it with the attitude I want, kwim?  So then we can use the tokens to work on that attitude/sticking to it.  Otherwise, NOT sticking to the plan (leaving to go do something else he might have his mind on) is self-rewarding and more rewarding, kwim?  So I need to make coming into MY world rewarding.  It already is, in the sense that the things we do are really cool.  Like he might not like EVERYTHING we do, but he actually really does, for the most part, like our stuff.  But still being off doing his own thing is MORE rewarding and reinforcing.  So I'm thinking the tokens are how I'm going to promote coming into my world and reward that.  But to get there, first I really had to get the gig down with our visual schedule.  

 

I'm really not *quite* done, because I need to get that weekly thing printed and make the tiles for it.  I haven't decided how I'm going to handle those exactly, sigh.  I'm still sorting it out.  I made something, but it's just not a done process.  It's actually a lot of steps, really.  You've got the thing to put it on, the laminating, the choices pieces, laminating them, the velcro for everything, choosing visual vs. words, etc.  Since it's a little different from what Reeve had done.  I think most people just put some kind of markers into their calendar.  I could do that, but again I haven't thought of how to do that.  

 

Oops, my dad is here.  Gotta scat.

[kbutton]

Hmm, stuff on the wall.  I'm a little crunchy about that myself.  Because it's in an open area, I'm not sure the calendar and map are any more interesting than the patterns on the curtains, the hems of the curtains (things I sit studying), the things out the window, etc.  So if you're asking if we'd get even MORE control in a dedicated room, THAT is an interesting point.  

 

The ASD classrooms I see online and have seen in person are fascinating.  They tend to be under done visually, with very limited visual distractions, so they're very calm and serene.  

 

I was asking in the most straightforward sense--does more stuff on the wall = more distraction. If it was our house, and we had maps on the wall, I would just cover the maps when not in use. If that was still an issue, I would get a big art folio or something to contain them, and then I would pull them out as needed. Don't go work on a different space because i mentioned it, lol! We try not to school near windows. I thought that would be nice, and then I realized that as long as vehicles exist, we'd never get work done (and we live on a dead-end street!). 

 

I think your setup is miraculous with your open layout fighting against containment. I think it's great that this has focused your time and options in a positive way for both of you.

[PeterPan]

Cricket, were you talking about your 6 yo there or your 11 yo?  Is there a big difference?

[PeterPan]

I was asking in the most straightforward sense--does more stuff on the wall = more distraction. If it was our house, and we had maps on the wall, I would just cover the maps when not in use. If that was still an issue, I would get a big art folio or something to contain them, and then I would pull them out as needed. Don't go work on a different space because i mentioned it, lol! We try not to school near windows. I thought that would be nice, and then I realized that as long as vehicles exist, we'd never get work done (and we live on a dead-end street!). 

 

I think your setup is miraculous with your open layout fighting against containment. I think it's great that this has focused your time and options in a positive way for both of you.

Yeah, he's really not ADHD-inattentive.  He's not one of those that's sitting there and then like 'Oh Shiny!" and running off.  The bolting is more sort of internal.

 

And yes, that's part of why I'm so happy, because it's actually really hard to create that environmental control on him in a place that's *open* and where he has *access* to so much.  One of the kits came with STOP signs.  I printed and laminated but haven't used them.  I changed a bit how his containers of toys are arranged, which has helped with the dragging stuff out.  If we can't keep it manageable or if the status on that changes, my next step is STOP signs and covers.  At one point he was dragging stuff off my shelves (to investigate) and it was driving me CRAZY.  Now maybe he's just too busy, but that's why I printed those signs, to get more control.  Maybe his time is so much more structured now?  But again, it's where the kit was anticipating my needs, giving me more structure, more ways to handle things.  

[Guest]

I was asking in the most straightforward sense--does more stuff on the wall = more distraction. If it was our house, and we had maps on the wall, I would just cover the maps when not in use. If that was still an issue, I would get a big art folio or something to contain them, and then I would pull them out as needed. Don't go work on a different space because i mentioned it, lol! We try not to school near windows. I thought that would be nice, and then I realized that as long as vehicles exist, we'd never get work done (and we live on a dead-end street!).

Our first schoolroom had a very school like set up. My oldest was 4 and while he loved it it was distracting to him. I had to take stuff down. My youngest does not seem to have that issue only now I dont have much wall space LOL.

 

OhE, my youngest son's schoolroom is an open space also. It's a decent size space that fits the stuff I want in it. The imaginative play/ block center is behind the desk and table so our backs are turned to it. We sit at the table for writing. Anything else we change locations depending on what we are working on. I'll sit on the floor and play with him at the train table, or will incorporate learning to it. I can't be too rigid with this child. I don't want him making schedules and processes into rituals. It's why kids are eventually weaned off visual schedules. At least from what I have been reading. I just work with my boys based on their strengths and weaknesses.

[kbutton]

I don't know if I said this in the notes, but the point of the Independent work is Teacher Control.  The concept there is we're getting into their head: I do what I'm told, I do what the teacher tells me.  This has been wacky hard for him.  His theory was: I obey Daddy, and I comply with anyone else if I feel like it.   :svengo: So there's never this thought of oh this is busywork, I'm wasting time having him do this and it's also not about what academics we cover.  Remember, for it to be *independent* it basically has to be on the easy side, almost review, gently pleasant.  So like I gave him a 25 piece puzzle and he freaked out.  I had to come over and get him calmed down and work it through with him.  That's not independent.  But a coloring sheet where it says color the spaces with B blue, the spaces with G green, the spaces with Y yellow, where he has been shown how to do that, that can be independent.  I try to put a variety of things in his bins, so something to work on fine motor (every time, every time), a book of mazes, a book of dot to dots, something he has to color (witty, like with a code or something), and then a puzzle.  So I'm hitting therapy targets there, but my REAL goal is just teacher control, plain and simple.  He needs it in his head that he does what he's told.  And, frankly, he needs the chance to be independent.  It's not healthy for him not to be able to do things without me.  I'm much more aggressive about setting him up for that, knowing that he can't make things happen for himself the way dd always did.  The ability to do SOMETHING for himself is an important deal.  And maybe his gap on that isn't as much as some kids, fine.  I'm just saying I see it.  We work on it all day with can you dress yourself, can you make yourself breakfast, can you...  Don't do things for them that they can begin to do for themselves with support.

 

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

I bet he feels like big stuff being in charge of himself this way. I think this is wonderful.

[PeterPan]

Hmm, that's an interesting point.  Our plans aren't fixed, like the same for each day.  It's more like choices we make and finally having all the options there in front of us.  So we open our notebook in the morning and talk about what we're doing for the day (activities, outings), then we fill in the necessaries (breakfast, lunch, breaks, snack), then we make choices.  And it's kind of healthy, because we can say we have this much time before we leave (1 hour, 2 hours), what do you want to get done...  Or he'll say he wants to do such and such, and we go into first/then mode, with ok if you want to do that, then get these three things done and you're good to go.  

 

He used to be just ZOOM off into his world, and it was like whoa, come into MINE, kwim?  Like we're going to have a really hard time connecting if we can't even get onto the same planet.  So that's just so much better now.  But you're right that in my own rigidity I keep thinking hmm, maybe it should be the same thing every day, or maybe I should codify the week plan so he knows like every Tuesday we do these three things, blah blah.  He needs that for our *outings* and things we go to (therapies, classes), but for things at home he gets lots of choice, as in all the cards are there and he could say can we do art, science, and knex today and I would say sure, but can we also do Teacher Table...  So it's not really rigid.

 

But I think what's driving it and losing some of that natural play kind of effect is all the lessons and therapies.  We're zip zoom somewhere every day.  And it's different every day, so you can't even get into some routine and know that like every day at noon we do x.  No, one day it's this time, another day a different time.  So I *have* to force the issue a bit with the choices to make sure we get the things done.  I'm really cool with alternative ways of doing things, so if he wants to write a book or create a different project, we do it.  But because we might only have x#hours before we go to something, I try to be really careful to use those hours productively (with interaction of some kind) and not lose them.  

[Guest]

Cricket, were you talking about your 6 yo there or your 11 yo? Is there a big difference?

I posted about my youngest son's space since he is a few months apart in age to your boy. My oldest has his own study/ project room now. My youngest was too much of a distraction for him so I had to separate his space but his room comes out to my youngest son's space and we can include him for things we do together. Oldest son's space is very structured. He needs the structure to function. My youngest is like his dad, he can easily block everything around to focus. Oldest son is more like me ;)

[PeterPan]

Cricket, I'd love to hear more about how your older ds' space is structured. :)  Kbutton brought that idea up of how it would shift with time (or attention), and that fascinates me.  

 

 

[Guest]

I have to get going but I'll be back when I have more time :)

[nature girl]

 

Speaking of rewards, she has a free reward/token kit and an even snazzier paid one.                                                   Thumbs Up: Token Systems for Behavior Management (autism / special education)                                              I printed it and laminated and haven't gotten started using it.  It blew my mind just to get all this stuff figured out!  It took time for us to work into it, building slowly, explaining what the pictures meant, learning how to use it.  I wanted it to be natural, not something we turn on and off.  Like if it's late and we're having problems, out comes the if/then chart or over we walk to our table with The Plan.  It took time to work into it.  He has seen the Token chart and likes it.  We just haven't started it yet.  We have guests this week, so it won't be this week either.  Then token charts are cool because you can use it to incentivize ANYTHING.  Like I have in my mind what I *want* to incentivize is working The Plan.  I have some theories on that too.  Anyways, to me even simple things like going right to the plan to start the plan, that's good to incentivize with tokens.  It doesn't have to be simply doing Teacher Table, because maybe he's not doing teacher table when I want it with the attitude I want, kwim?  So then we can use the tokens to work on that attitude/sticking to it.  Otherwise, NOT sticking to the plan (leaving to go do something else he might have his mind on) is self-rewarding and more rewarding, kwim?  So I need to make coming into MY world rewarding.  It already is, in the sense that the things we do are really cool.  Like he might not like EVERYTHING we do, but he actually really does, for the most part, like our stuff.  But still being off doing his own thing is MORE rewarding and reinforcing.  So I'm thinking the tokens are how I'm going to promote coming into my world and reward that.  But to get there, first I really had to get the gig down with our visual schedule.  

 

 

Those token charts are CUTE! Our token system is only focused on non-school-related behaviors, and it's working wonderfully. But now I'm trying to envision using tokens in the way you're planning...How does it fit in with the Work System rewards you already have going? And does incentivizing a child to start work willingly and happily actually eventually make them develop their own perseverance (which is something sorely lacking here)? Or just make them pretend to have the right attitude? That's where I'm stuck...Can having the right attitude be taught? Or maybe it doesn't even matter as long as it gets done and he does persevere?

 

ETA: Sorry, I just reread your comment without being lost in my own thoughts and see it probably has as much to do with establishing teacher control. Which makes a lot of sense...and it's maybe something we need here too. (She doesn't bolt while I'm teaching, but her mind whizzes off the second something bores her.) I'm still not quite sure how incentivizing it might work in the long run (can the rewards eventually be eliminated and the motivation maintained?), although I do some of it here, albeit a lot less formally.

[kbutton]

Hmm, that's an interesting point.  Our plans aren't fixed, like the same for each day.  It's more like choices we make and finally having all the options there in front of us.  So we open our notebook in the morning and talk about what we're doing for the day (activities, outings), then we fill in the necessaries (breakfast, lunch, breaks, snack), then we make choices.  And it's kind of healthy, because we can say we have this much time before we leave (1 hour, 2 hours), what do you want to get done...  Or he'll say he wants to do such and such, and we go into first/then mode, with ok if you want to do that, then get these three things done and you're good to go.  

We do this as well for my older one. It looks completely different, and we're struggling to get up and running this year with DS 7's evaluations wrecking things, but our ASD kiddo (DS 11) has a version of this. I kind of think of it like a list to keep us on track, and everything possible is on that list. Then we have the actual structure portion (what time slots do we have to work with, how can we distribute tasks to keep from having days with "too much" in them), and that lets us triage. He likes it a lot. I have yet to find something that works with DS 7, but we'll get there. 

 

But I think what's driving it and losing some of that natural play kind of effect is all the lessons and therapies.  We're zip zoom somewhere every day.  And it's different every day, so you can't even get into some routine and know that like every day at noon we do x.  No, one day it's this time, another day a different time.  So I *have* to force the issue a bit with the choices to make sure we get the things done.  I'm really cool with alternative ways of doing things, so if he wants to write a book or create a different project, we do it.  But because we might only have x#hours before we go to something, I try to be really careful to use those hours productively (with interaction of some kind) and not lose them.  

 

I think it's awesome that you can use these materials to support all that upheaval and get the therapies accomplished. Well done.

[Lecka]

Not really true that kids are weaned off visual schedules to encourage more flexibility. Instead visual schedules are used as a tool to encourage more flexibility. Changes are made with the schedule.

 

If something changes, you can change the schedule to be flexible.

 

If you are working on flexibility, you can decide to make certain changes to the schedule from day to day. Or make changes and show them on the schedule.

 

Kids do not get weaned off as long as it is helpful.

 

They do change the form so that it is more words instead of visuals for some kids. They change them to look more like a planner.

 

They might go to where kids are using a planner, and they can make changes to their day on their own, if they want.

 

It is like that is a form of visual schedule, though. It is not that they are weaned off.

 

Honestly I have heard it is better to keep using visual schedules. I have heard they are something that can be used long-term, and that kids can become very independent with.

 

If a certain kid is becoming rigid with the use of a schedule, then there are a lot of ways to work with that, and keep the use of a schedule in some form.

 

I can see there are times not to use it, but it is a really solid thing, it is not something you would see as "we want to quit as soon as we can."

 

At a certain point too -- visual schedules are like -- people started with planners or daily calendars, and worked backwards. The simplest form may be a visual schedule. You advance toward use of a planner or calendar in a way that is helpful to a person and independent. You don't have a goal of not using a calendar or planning what to do in a day.

 

But I agree with saying -- weaning off a lower level, to a higher level, maybe one with more independence, etc. That makes sense.

 

But a to-so list is considered a visual schedule.... It is written (so -- visual) and has items that need to be done. If you are going to choose what order to do the list in in a flexible way, and do them on some order, and cross them off as done ---- that is like an end-point for a visual schedule that has options for what order to go in, and flexibility about what order to go in.

 

There are ways to build on flexibility by always alternating some orders, and to say there is a change and then use the schedule to show the change in the schedule.

 

I think it is a great cool to build flexibility.

 

It just has to be used that way.

 

And work out for an individual kid when used that way.

 

But I do hear language like "become more independent" and "use age-appropriate forms of visual schedules" where kids use a planner or calendar similar to other kids their age as appropriate.

 

As an adult I pencil in my fixed-time items, and then fit my non-fixed-time items around them, using a calendar. If I need to be flexible I can erase what I have written.

 

Doing this with a Velcro strip with pictures is just the version of this for a non-reading child.

 

If he needs to be weaned off it, I need to be weaned off it too ---- but it is something that helps me, and I cannot track of all in my head all the time, or I forget to do things.

[PeterPan]

The Work System is an immediate reward, with no delay.  Do the 5 bins, ripping the tabs and placing on their strip and placing the completed work in your Finished Work bin, and you earn the reward you chose.  The tokens, I think, are more cumulative.  So good job, here's a token, good job, here's a token, super duper crazy duper, here's 3 tokens.  Like dog treats.

 

So you could say we have a lot of built-in incentives during the day, with each thing we're doing being reinforced by some good thing.  I've taken to having him choose a reward card for his end of daily plan list.  So if he picks games or special or leisure time or whatever, even just the simple act of finishing the daily plan is reinforced with something positive, kwim?  

 

You mentioned perserverance.  That's something they measure clinically in evals, or at least they did on dd.  That's so foreign with ds.  I would never even get in that scenario with him.  Just avoid that entirely.  If that's what is happening, you've already lost it.  It's not like he's inattentive and I'm snapping him to.  He's either in my world or he's not, engaged or he's not.  If things have gone negative, then the chemicals in the brain have already turned away from learning and toward not learning.  So once that shift occurs and things have gone negative, you've already stopped learning.  So to me, the BREAK cards are awesome.  They're the way you save face and go Oh, I see you're looking tired!  You need a break!  Let's use our break cards and go take a break.  Here's our notebook, let's choose.  So nobody lost face, no power struggle, just here's the symptom, here's the solution, let's make a choice.  

[Lecka]

Anna's Mom -- you may be more comfortable thinking about naturally occurring rewards, and just plan your time so there are naturally occurring rewards.

 

I do this with my other kids by saying "first we pick up, then we can go to the park." It is very typical and seems non-bribey to me.

 

But it is still part of a first-then set-up and they are still having the experience of "I picked up and then I did something fun."

 

For my other son -- it is like that in a lot of ways, it just requires a lot more structure.

 

You also do, in general, want to vary rewards and reduce needing rewards.

 

Bc I don't think it is okay if my kids think they go to the park every time they pick something up with a good attitude.

 

But it is still a tool for me.

 

There is a book -- blanking on the name -- all about common pitfalls of this with more typical kids. I think it is worth reading. Bc it is possible to have it go wrong, too. And that would be really too bad.

[PeterPan]

Kbutton, there's something more to this I haven't actually said but that is sort of obvious when you're in it.  The *reason* I haven't made some fixed kind of school-like repetitive, OCD schedule (this day these cards, next day these cards), is because in reality he's uneven.  In school there's a lot of "butt in the seat."  In our house we use that to say your butt is in the seat and the thing happens and you get credit for being there, whether you really were or not.  And homeschooling doesn't HAVE that luxury.  Either our kids are on or they're not, and some days they're not.  Some days they're sort of half on, half not.  Sometimes he has a slow start.  

 

So to me, the visual schedules are really a way to get that out in the open and see how we feel, what we feel up to.  Rather than a rigid paradigm, we can flex.  If he wants to wake up and bang out a bunch of stuff (which he sometimes does), we can.  If he wakes up slow and wants to eat breakfast first, we can do that too.  It so would not work with him to go I know you're having a sucky day but here's what it is, no matter what.  If he wakes up and it's obvious he's going to spend the whole day stimming and zoned (which happens), then we'll just pull a choice card and play Knex for three hours.  We can roll with him, but we at least have the tool to talk about it.  That works for us.

 

I don't know what I'd do with straight ADHD, hmm.  With dd I used prescribed lists, less choice.  She really likes open-ended things where it's sort of adventure learning.  (Go disappear and learn what you want about snow.)  That to her is GREAT.  But she also also likes the structures I create for her.  She's just not this list-making type who can make lists for herself.  The Hannaford brain dominance book/system I think has left-brain dominant people being very list-oriented and right-brain being more gestalt.  So our OT was telling me she finds her ASD kids are almost always that list-making, left-brain, sequential type.  Dd, on the other hand, is very gestalt.  Both are clearly very VSL.   :w00t:   

 

So my point is, I think with list-making kids you're going to use lists.  With gestalt kids, they need some way to get to the gestalt.  It could be a list, could be bins.  Could be anything.  I just notice my dd is constantly asking for that, like where is this going, what is the plan, what is the big picture...  I'm so list-maker, to me it always seems natural to make her a list.  Finally I gave her a gestalt view: Every day I want you to read something, write something, math something, create something.  Beyond that, I don't give a rip, kwim?  So when I finally explained to her that the lists were just a *tool* to fill in those categories, she could deal with that better.  Then she could see that we could flex the lists, sub out or change the lists, and I wouldn't care because what I REALLY cared about was read, write, math, create.  Bam.

 

If your ds7 has technology, you might look together for an app he likes.  There are bajillions of nice list making apps.  They're each a little different.  My dd has one I think called cross it off.  She finds that very satisfying, lol.  She LOVES lists she can cross off.  

 

 I just asked her, and she said the trouble with my lists is they're too cryptic (brief).  Like right now one spot says Purple, nothing but PURPLE.  To me it makes total sense, but to her it's not enough.   :lol:  She said something more like Sonlight, with more clarity.  So there you go.  Make lists and don't be cryptic, lol.  

 

Does he *want* choice?  You know there are more ways to give choice besides turning your whole week into that.  When dd was younger, we would do Mom's Day Off.  So she'd have a normal checklist for 4 days a week, and 1 day a week was my day off.  On that day she'd have independent work, a kit, just something radically different.  Or maybe even set up that scenario with independent work for 30-45 min daily and teacher table and math for 1-2 hours daily.  It has been pretty good for us.  

 

 I *think* there are apps you can use for visual schedules like this.  Boardmaker or something?  There are all kinds of apps out there.  Our OT uses one where you make stories, and each page can be the next task.  She uses that because she can take pictures and give structure.  The kids like it.  But for our purpose the paper and velcro works fine.  But dd's homeschooling at that age was so different.  She had to alternate, so like 10 minutes on, 5 minute break.  She'd alternate easy and hard subjects, school and breaks.  It was just frenetic.  Ds is totally the opposite.  He'll sit down and work for 45 minutes, no problem, unless he bolts.  And the bolting will have nothing to do with the length of session or engagement.  It could be he needed to go to the bathroom.  It could be he just decided he was leaving to go outside (which of course I have to stop, because you have to ASK).  But to actually sit down and work, he can work 45 min, no problem.  Not ADHD-inattentive.   :lol:  Dd, at this same age, would work 15-20 min with a timer to help her stay focused and lots of motion breaks.  Seriously.  In fact, some of her things were 10-15.  And that's a girl.  ADHD-inattentive.  So the visual system I use for ds wouldn't make sense for someone who needs things to change every 10 minutes, kwim?  It works *because* he can work for 30-40 min stretches.  We might change things up within that, like doing three types of LA things in that time, but still he can be there and be engaged, no problem.

 

With dd, I used dishpans and timers.

 

 

[Lecka]

Anna's Mom -- you may be more comfortable thinking about naturally occurring rewards, and just plan your time so there are naturally occurring rewards.

 

I do this with my other kids by saying "first we pick up, then we can go to the park." It is very typical and seems non-bribey to me.

 

But it is still part of a first-then set-up and they are still having the experience of "I picked up and then I did something fun."

 

For my other son -- it is like that in a lot of ways, it just requires a lot more structure.

 

You also do, in general, want to vary rewards and reduce needing rewards.

 

Bc I don't think it is okay if my kids think they go to the park every time they pick something up with a good attitude.

 

But it is still a tool for me.

 

There is a book -- blanking on the name -- all about common pitfalls of this with more typical kids. I think it is worth reading. Bc it is possible to have it go wrong, too. And that would be really too bad.

 

Edit: one of the ones by Alan Kazdin.

 

I get really into this with my younger son, but I think this is a good book if you are thinking about it .

 

There may be times you choose not to use it, I think it is good to be thoightful.

I can remember bad systems like this and when they are bad, they are horrible.

 

When they are good, I like them very much .

 

I don't do it with my other two kids much at all. It is not a must-do for them.

 

But "first work then play" is handy and sometimes if there is a small situation I have done a little temporary thing.

 

I let them pick supper or snack -- that is a reward they like. It does not seem so "here is your choice board and here are your tokens" but it is the same kind of thing in its way, and I think for some things it is good.

 

My older son -- I did set a timer for him for reading, and at breaks, let him pick something I would do with him. Same kind of thing also. I have only done that with him for reading when we were doing intensive remediation. He has not needed it otherwise. But it was hard and not naturally rewarding for him in any way.

 

Until he was successful. And then just being successful started him in the natural reinforcement cycle of "I did a good job, I am making progress, I feel good about my reading."

 

He is the the natural reinforcement cycle.

 

I look at some things as getting kids into the natural reinforcement cycle, when they are not there. But getting them to feel like "I am good at this" and stuff -- it is something I think can be a progression that starts with tokens to do something very difficult or non-preferred.

[PeterPan]

Anna's Mom -- you may be more comfortable thinking about naturally occurring rewards, and just plan your time so there are naturally occurring rewards.

 

I do this with my other kids by saying "first we pick up, then we can go to the park." It is very typical and seems non-bribey to me.

 

But it is still part of a first-then set-up and they are still having the experience of "I picked up and then I did something fun."

 

For my other son -- it is like that in a lot of ways, it just requires a lot more structure.

 

You also do, in general, want to vary rewards and reduce needing rewards.

 

Bc I don't think it is okay if my kids think they go to the park every time they pick something up with a good attitude.

 

But it is still a tool for me.

 

There is a book -- blanking on the name -- all about common pitfalls of this with more typical kids. I think it is worth reading. Bc it is possible to have it go wrong, too. And that would be really too bad.

Yup, that's a good word for it, natural rewards.  It's a natural reward to make a choice as part of our making our plan in the morning and realize oh, if I hit the stick and stay focused and don't run off, I get to go do thing #3 which is the thing I picked...  And for him, he actually needed to SEE a first/then chart and use it a bit.  Then he could understand the language to be able to do it without the chart.

[PeterPan]

Bingo, Lecka explained that really well.  We've actually IMPROVED flexibility by using the visual schedules.  He sees lots of choices and understands the plan for the day and where he can fit his choices in.  It's no different than what an adult does, but we're just teaching it more intentionally and more visually.  Reeve was kind enough to send me a page of blanks for schedules, so I can draw in the few things we have that don't fit hers well or that we really wanted custom ones for.  You can see we drew in our swimming and gymnastics.  We're literally able to encapsulate our whole day with the schedules.  It has been fabulous.  We used to have so many meltdowns of "You didn't tell me that!" and on and on.  

 

The TPT kits I linked include not only pictures but also words, so maybe in the previews you can see that transition Lecka is talking about. 

[kbutton]

OhE, I think one place i get stuck is that while my younger one is more like your DD, I think he also needs more gestalt. He's such a slow processor that he loses the big picture. So my older ones needs gestalt and lists, but wants to create his own with assistance and with help to mitigate peaks and valleys (though for us, meds were essential to level them as well). My younger one I can't quite put my finger on, but he needs gestalt on an emotional level and details on a practical level. He is more like your DD in that he has to cycle through more stuff in the same amount of time. This kills me. I wouldn't care if he could be more independent, but needing me and needed to do more things in the same amount of time is like being bitten by a mosquito all day. That's how it feels. He's not as extreme as 5-15 minute time slots, I don't think, but he does need me with him a lot. I don't know if he would do anything independent like your DD< but maybe I would be suprised. 

 

Lots of good stuff in your message. Just stuck on how to rearrange it to work in my head. Oh, and he wants to be bribed, rewarded, loved on, kudo'ed, and sweet talked for everything. It's a bit extreme. I think there is an itch I am not scratching with him that makes him so clingy and set on all day, every day affirmation. I can't figure out what it is. He does have things he does for his own pleasure, but it's hard to get that to translate to school. And the breaks for nothing--most of his breaks for being hungry are because he loses track of what he's doing and doesn't finish lunch (or snack, or breakfast, or whatever)...in 45 minutes with constant reminders to put the next bite in his mouth. I don't find that amusing. At all.

[Jennifer-72]

Bingo, Lecka explained that really well. We've actually IMPROVED flexibility by using the visual schedules. He sees lots of choices and understands the plan for the day and where he can fit his choices in. It's no different than what an adult does, but we're just teaching it more intentionally and more visually. Reeve was kind enough to send me a page of blanks for schedules, so I can draw in the few things we have that don't fit hers well or that we really wanted custom ones for. You can see we drew in our swimming and gymnastics. We're literally able to encapsulate our whole day with the schedules. It has been fabulous. We used to have so many meltdowns of "You didn't tell me that!" and on and on.

 

The TPT kits I linked include not only pictures but also words, so maybe in the previews you can see that transition Lecka is talking about.

 

Yes! It can be so hard to convince parents of the usefulness of visual schedules! They allow for some predictability and add an element of control for the child who usually feels completely out of control. They make transitions easier and help to expand choice making for the child as well. So many benefits.

 

Your set up looks great. I am sure this will be a super successful year of learning for your guy!

[KSinNS]

Amazing set up. It looks great! I love your schedules. They really bring me back. 

 

Big fan of the visual schedule here. When S was 4 and in therapy, and in a crazy school schedule in K at 5 (alternating ams and pms for school every two weeks with therapy at the other time) the visual schedule saved us. It let him see at a glance what the day looked like, so he could cope with the big schedule switcheroo every 2 weeks. We had a not-detailed daily schedule for the fridge, and a detailed one for therapy. Once he was in Grade 1, and had a sensible schedule, he was able to cope without a daily schedule (he could remember what happened each day) but the school used it for complex tasks he was not independent with (getting his stuff off and put away and then on again after school.) He didn't really need much VS after Grade 2, but he is always more happy when he knows what's happening, so usually at bedtime, he'll go through the next day's plan with us. Tonight, it'll be tomorrow is school, then early lunch and violin with Celeste at 12:15. Daddy will pick me up. The rest of the day, he knows. He likes a written list for school, but he can do things in any order, take breaks, or intersperse practice when he wants to. He comes and works with me when I call, and he can usually transition easily (I do try not to interrupt practice if I don't have to). The VS really did help him to cope with changes in routine when he was young, which has translated to a much more flexible life now. He likes lists and routines, and we accommodate that, and warn about changes, so he can usually cope. I figure these kind of things are lifelong coping mechanisms for all of us. 

 

I don't do VS for my ADD kid, or my maybe ADD maybe autism kid. T is fine so long as she gets a break, but her problem is not rigidity but forgetting what she has to do. This year, she gets a list of her independent schoolwork after we have done her stuff with me, and she picks the order and takes breaks when needed. This is the first year she can do this. In the past if I gave her 2 things to do on her own, one would not get done. The check-list really helps her, but we never needed the detail of VS. Though, now that I think of it, it could have helped with complex tasks with many steps (getting a school bag packed would be a good example.) This is something she really could not do until this year. Hmmm, I'll have to think about that for D as well. Right now, he can't wait long enough to get instructions. This might actually really help!

 

Thanks, all

[PeterPan]

OhE, I think one place i get stuck is that while my younger one is more like your DD, I think he also needs more gestalt. He's such a slow processor that he loses the big picture. So my older ones needs gestalt and lists, but wants to create his own with assistance and with help to mitigate peaks and valleys (though for us, meds were essential to level them as well). My younger one I can't quite put my finger on, but he needs gestalt on an emotional level and details on a practical level. He is more like your DD in that he has to cycle through more stuff in the same amount of time. This kills me. I wouldn't care if he could be more independent, but needing me and needed to do more things in the same amount of time is like being bitten by a mosquito all day. That's how it feels. He's not as extreme as 5-15 minute time slots, I don't think, but he does need me with him a lot. I don't know if he would do anything independent like your DD< but maybe I would be suprised. 

 

Lots of good stuff in your message. Just stuck on how to rearrange it to work in my head. Oh, and he wants to be bribed, rewarded, loved on, kudo'ed, and sweet talked for everything. It's a bit extreme. I think there is an itch I am not scratching with him that makes him so clingy and set on all day, every day affirmation. I can't figure out what it is. He does have things he does for his own pleasure, but it's hard to get that to translate to school. And the breaks for nothing--most of his breaks for being hungry are because he loses track of what he's doing and doesn't finish lunch (or snack, or breakfast, or whatever)...in 45 minutes with constant reminders to put the next bite in his mouth. I don't find that amusing. At all.

Two things jump out here.  One, his independent things are probably going to be on the gifted side.  You know, like the brain teaser pages that scratch their itch.  He might be ready for Mind Benders.  I think it was Teacher Created Resources I was looking at that had some really cool things, like coloring math pages meant for gr3-5, that kind of thing.  That can get fun.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/32ZIFWIMCUHCW/ref=cm_wl_sortbar_o_page_3?ie=UTF8&page=3

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/3UBZQ5IFW4CXY/ref=cm_wl_list_o_7?

 

Here are wishlists I've been maintaining of 2nd gr for boys, 3rd gr for boys.  I just sort of dump ideas in there, so they're random inspiration.  One of my dd's wicked worst issues is transitions.  Even though one of the *strategies* for maintaining attention is to work short sessions and rotate (like here's a pile or a list, work 15 min on each thing and keep going through), she can't make herself do that.  So if you wanted to try to work on transitions, this might be the age to do it.  I know it's crunchy hard to go back later and get that.  It might be a worthy goal.  I'm making no promises on what you can get.  I'm just saying if you tried it, like maybe setting the timer for 10,15,or 20 minutes and making the gig that he works 15, snacks for 5 (with a timer), works 15, snacks for 5.  Or even make it wackier, like works 15, snack 7, I don't care.  I'm just saying that discipline of building the idea that we CAN stop intentionally, can break, can maintain focus by being brief and staying fresh, that could be worth something.  

 

Is your ds getting OT right now for sensory?  That might be something you go back to when you have the scholarship.  They might be able to get some of that under control with OT.  Visual schedules or if he doesn't need visual then just words.  I'm just trying to think here what would work.  My dd likes the cross it off app, but that doesn't fit well with a focus on transitions and timers.  And really, that discipline *is* worth a lot.  But don't shoot for all day, kwim?  Like just shoot for maybe 1 hour of that to start with.  Instead of changing your approach to the whole day, think about whether you could change ONE aspect of your dynamic.  Like if you could get 30 minutes of disciplined independent work going, where it was sort of high energy, like 5 bins, 30 minutes, with a prize/choice for staying focused and finishing on time.  Then that would build some skill and momentum you could carry to the next thing, kwim?  

 

Ok, we've been talking praxis in other threads.  If he has some oral/verbal praxis going on, that will affect the eating.  Have you thought about what happens if the snack is cut into smaller bites or softer?  I'd put a timer on for those snacks and meals.  Since he seems to have issues, you'd rather him get 5 minutes for snack every 25 minutes or every hour or whatever (and at least be eating), then to have 45 minutes of lolly gagging.

 

THE buzzword with ADHD is structure.  It's sort of the inverse of what you do for ASD unfortunately.  But on the good side, there are no comprehension issues.  You can pretty much think up ANY structure you want and it's going to be fine.  Like be wacky, kwim?  ANY app, any list, anything you dream up.  Want 13 minutes on, 7 minutes off?  Piles, drawers, anything you want.  The more you structure, the more successful he'll be.  Uber clear expectations.  

 

And yeah, that's just reality that he's working with you a lot.  You need a clone, sigh.  But get him set up with 4-6 bins of brief things he can do for 30-60 minutes.  Structure it very heavily.  It will save you some sanity.  That gets you a little time to yourself.  Then assign reading (an amount of time, immersion is fine) and tell him to get out of your presence while he does it.  That gets you another hour.  So now you have about 2 hours to yourself or to work with ds1.  

 

He'll have to be taught how to do the independent table.  I'm just thinking it could give you some peace.  It's a technique that really would work across labels.  I'd just lean toward nifty sort of brain tingling things.  Have you seen the 100-1000 dot 2dot books Timberdoodle sells?  Or the really elaborate mazes?  Those could work.  Something for the fine motor can go in bins.  (Things with pinchers, theraputty, lacing, etc. etc.)  I've got my ds doing some c-rod art books where you do the simple math problem and color the rods to reveal a picture.  Bam, fine motor and math in one!  Oh no, ornery mother would never let independent work do double duty, hehe.  But actually my ds can't quite do those independently.  But for your ds I'll bet they would be.  ETAHand2Mind sells the books.  And what about those Super Brain tangram type puzzles?  Those would work.  You'd just put in a zip bag with some pieces and 3 of the pictures maybe, so he'd know the exact number to do.

 

They sell sand timers that are for a precise amount of time like 5 minutes or 10 minutes.  I'm almost positive I've seen that.  Obviously 1 minute is too short, but if you could get say 5 minutes, then he could use that for his independent work.  He'd just flip, work the bin, make a stamp on his daily list to show completion, flip, do the next bin, stamp his list.  I'm thinking stamps because he might think the velcro gig was juvenile.  Besides, it's work to set up.  But a self-inking rubber stamp would be cool and satisfying.  And see if you do that, you're teaching him, in this little microcosm, how to work for a time, how to transition, how to show you completed the task.  Then, when you want that same skill for bigger tasks (like math, history, etc.), you've planted that seed, kwim?  That could be really powerful if he would do it.  Dunno, but you could try.  Just use what you have and don't make it complicated, kwim?  Like 5 magazine racks, a 5 minute sand timer, a self-inking stamp, and a piece of paper with 5 spots.  Then when he fills it in with stamps he turns it in to you for a prize or a dollar credit at the Bank of Mom (haha) or whatever.  He might find it satisfying just to finish it, or it might be his passport to a fun activity or to game time or whatever.  Ds' choice cards for finishing his independent work are pretty generic.  They're from the kit, but they include a food treat, games, that kind of thing.  So it's more about what we do together or a valued things to do, not so much about acquiring things.  

 

I'm pretty far out from where dd used to be, mercy.  I might have forgotten a lot, meaning stuff would not apply, lol.  But you know, play with it.  I can tell you that now that she's 16 I wish she could transition and do shorter, controlled working times.  It would be a worthy thing to work on to see if he can get comfortable with that without too much stress.

[PeterPan]

KSinNS, you're right, just that printed overview of the week (hung somewhere obvious) would take care of it.  That's what was making me wacky, making it overcomplicated with moveable things and stuff.  Too much work!  But if I just fill it in on the computer and print, that would be good enough, mercy.  Whew!  :)

[Guest]

I have always made it a habit of supporting my statements but did not have time earlier. Please note that my specific concern was for MY youngest as he has made certain processes into rituals in the past (during stressful times). He is also the type of child that is very observant and can follow directions by watching something done once or twice. Getting him to follow schedules on tasks he can already do without schedules is unnecessary in his case. I believe I also mentioned here and have in the past that we use to-do type schedules and that is what I will be using with him. I also do not agree with bringing the child to the table with a handful of reinforces. I do rewards, but again, that's just ME ;)

 

Another thing to point out, I always clarify that this is what I do with MY kids. Not advising anyone to follow what I do or criticizing what others choose to follow. Just sharing!

 

Anyway, I'm on the tablet and just lost half my post. Oh well, here's the quote:

 

"Strategies for Fading Visual Supports

 

A commonly asked question is whether the visual supports an individual student is using should ever be faded out completely. The short answer is: sometimes yes and sometimes no. As stated elsewhere in this book, it is not always necessary to completely fade out supports. We all use visual supports to remind us about appointments (a calendar), tasks to be completed (a “to do†list on paper or stored on a Palm Pilot), or what we need to purchase for home (shopping list). So, using a visual support is sometimes entirely typical and appropriate. The decision as to whether to fade or not to fade depends upon several variables:

 

â–  What do typically developing children use (e.g., a to do list, a note attached to a backpack)?

â–  Will the individual be able to perform as independently if the support is removed?

â–  What supports will members of the community readily respond to and therefore reinforce the student for using (e.g., pictures of various fast food items that can be ordered when out to lunch)?

 

In many cases, it is optimal to completely eliminate the support if it is not a support that a typically developing peer would use. However, if eliminating the support means that the learner is now less independent or is not understood in the general community, then continuing to use it may be the better option. Also, there are other issues to keep in mind. For instance, it’s probably not a good idea to take away the support when the person is going through a stressful period such as when starting a new job or a new school, or dealing with a death or divorce. In addition, you should try to involve the person with autism in the decision to fade the support as much as possible. This may involve seeking his input about a fading strategy or talking to him about why you’re making these changes and getting him to buy into them."

 

So for me, convincing me about the usefulness of visual schedules is not the issue. I don't fit my kids to a process, I fit the process to my kids ;)

 

Apologies for any typos. I fix them as I see them but it's not easy doing lengthy posts on the tablet, especially when it does some weird edits. Then I am risking losing a post altogether when I am quoting other sources and trying to copy/paste.

 

OhE, I think you have done a wonderful job on your son's work/ learning space. Much like you, I design the space to fit each of my kids :) I had described my oldest son's room but lost that part of the post and do not have time to retype it. I won't be linking photos as I would be removing them anyway and there's no sense in messing up your thread.

[Guest]

Oops, the quote is from the book "Visual Supports for People with Autism" by M. Cohen (Ed.D., BCBA) and D. Sloan (M.A., BCBA)

[Guest]

Taking a couple of minutes before I go to bed to clarify a few things. I skimmed through some of the posts, as I don't have much time to read through. OhE, I like what you are doing! You have a lot of flexibility already built into your schedules and I like the choices. I like giving choices to both of mine as well.

 

I have never liked rigid schedules. If you have ever seen NCIS’s newer female agent Eleanor Bishop that would be my style. I can really identify with her character. We keep an organized environment. Everything has its place here. In our family, we are quirky in our ways, and I am comfortable with that! There are some things that make people who they are and I am not about to change that. It's just the way we are, which is why I don’t expect people to understand me. If I had a penny for every time I have heard, “I don’t get you!†The only person that didn’t say that to me, I am married to ;) Anyway, I'll do anything in my power, no matter how silly others watching may think it is, for my kids. This is why I say, “people's opinion about me does not faze meâ€. Only God's does!

 

Lecka, you are correct. There are those that believe that visual supports should not be taken away. Alyson Beytien M.S., BCBA and autism consultant (author of Autism Every Day) would be one of them. It was one of the very few things (if not the only thing) that I did not agree with when I read her book. But I will clarify again that this is for my two boys. If I had another child that was lower functioning and needed the supports to function, my opinion would be different. I just hate absolutes! Especially on things that we as parents, and our kids as they mature, should have the actual say in. Where visual schedules are concerned, I completely agree with the position as described in Visual Supports for People with Autism. I reread my prior post and I did not phrase what I wanted to say accurately. The rigidity thing was my concern for my own son. The reasons for weaning off the supports, which I find very valid, are very well described in the quote from the book.

[Lecka]

That quote makes a lot of sense.

 

Part of my context is -- public school.  Here, planners are required for older students, and my 5th grader has a planner, and he is required to write his assignments down in it, and write down things on the days they will happen sometimes, like field trips or a test.  I am supposed to sign his planner every day, and use it to write notes to his teacher.    

 

Planners are required anyway, for everybody.  I don't know about for older kids, but it is required for 4th, 5th, and 6th grade in elementary school.  I don't know what they have at middle school.  

 

So in school and in IEPs ---- there is a thought that, they are starting with a little kid in pre-school or Kindergarten, and they hope to have this kid able to use a planner by 4th grade.  Kind-of.  

 

But it is a given that the planner will be a goal, b/c it is just something that is part of school, and typical peers are doing it, etc.  

 

But here, the planners are *100 percent* considered a visual schedule.  So, a lot of kids can get IEP supports that are just to help them manage and use their planners.  

 

And, it is a "school management" or "classroom management" type of goal in a lot of ways, too.  

 

I am just in a situation where -- when I am hearing about visual supports, it is a given to everyone, that in school kids use planners starting in 4th grade.  So it is a given that there is a certain type of visual schedule that typical peers will be using, and that other members of the community will be familiar with and able to support the student's use of the planner.  

 

B/c it is a school district thing, all the kids in the school district have planners purchased for them in 4th-6th, it is just a given, for all the kids in public school.  It is going to be considered optimal b/c it is what we have here.  

[Storygirl]

There are a lot of good ideas here! Thanks for sharing! We used a visual schedule when my children were younger, and it did help. I kept it simple -- I had a piece of cardboard that we could prop up at our table, and pictures of our school subjects and activities were velcroed on the front. As we finished each one, I pulled it off and stuck it to the back of the cardboard (I think -- or maybe I had a row at the bottom for completed pictures). It was helpful for my kids to be able to see what needed to be done during the day during those early years when our schoolwork had a lot of different little pieces that I was constantly changing around to suit their needs. Then as they grew older we transitioned to more open-and-go materials (CLE and others), because it worked for them and saved my sanity, and I dropped the visual schedule. I could say, "Now it's time for reading. Go get your books," and that was fine for them. My oldest child has a written checklist, and I was working toward that for my younger kids as well, but now they are in school.

 

Anyway, I'm rethinking the value of the visual schedule now after reading this thread. DS11 has a planner for school, but he doesn't utilize it. He copies into it what the teachers write on the board, and he carries it home in his backpack each night, but he does not look at it as a guide when he is at home. We always get it out to see what it says, but he himself is not really taking ownership of that. I can see that I need to work more with him on that in a systematic way, so that it becomes a tool that he USES and not just a thing that he carries around because he is told to.

 

He needs a ton of supervision when he is doing anything independently, whether it is school related or a life skill. He doesn't follow through. He can't tackle big tasks, and he can't keep track of steps if it is broken down into smaller chunks for him. We do a lot of direct supervision, but I can see that now that he is older, we need to help him become more independent. He is not moving toward independence on his own. Oh, he WANTS to be able to do things on his own, but he is not capable yet, and that leads to frustration. I'm going to think about how we can make him some checklists or schedules to use for his life skills at home. The trick for him is really teaching him directly and supervising him over a long period of time to make sure that it becomes a habit to check his list. It will take him a long time to be able to do that on his own. I haven't used checklists with him before, because he has been too scattered to be able to manage it on his own, but I see now that if we had done this with him from a much younger age, he might be in a better place with this skill by now. It's something we need to work on deliberately.

[OneStepAtATime]

OhE, I only had time to skim this thread but I hope to come back to it in more detail later.  Thank you so much for sharing the details of what you have done. It gives me some ideas for our own situation. 

[Storygirl]

My other thoughts are directly related to doing academics in a school setting. DS11's teacher mentioned that when he is supposed to be doing a task independently, he will often abandon the effort, put it aside while unfinished, and work on something else instead. Honestly, part of this is a character issue for him: if he doesn't want to do something, he will try to find a way out of it. But part of it is attention and being able to stick to a task until it is done. I think he would benefit from some additional structure with this at school. I'm not sure what it would look like. Maybe a daily checklist at school (in addition to the homework planner), where the teacher would have him write down what he is meant to be working on and what he can work on next when he has it done. And then he checks it or crosses it off. So he learns to work on one task at a time before moving to the next. I'll have to ask his intervention teacher what they can do.

 

Next year, in sixth grade, they have study hall. Study hall will be a complete waste for him. I mean, I do not want to pay tuition money for him to sit at a desk for forty-five minutes doing nothing and then come home with a pile of work for homework. He really just can't sit in a chair and work through things without some direct help or structure. As we think ahead to next year while planning out his IEP services, we're going to have to address this study hall issue. Maybe he can have some kind of intervention during that time instead. We'll have to figure it out.

 

But if the school can work with him this year to do better on his independent work during his actual class time, and create some kind of schedule or checklist, and teach him to use it, maybe he could manage a study hall better.

[OneStepAtATime]

My other thoughts are directly related to doing academics in a school setting. DS11's teacher mentioned that when he is supposed to be doing a task independently, he will often abandon the effort, put it aside while unfinished, and work on something else instead. Honestly, part of this is a character issue for him: if he doesn't want to do something, he will try to find a way out of it. But part of it is attention and being able to stick to a task until it is done. I think he would benefit from some additional structure with this at school. I'm not sure what it would look like. Maybe a daily checklist at school (in addition to the homework planner), where the teacher would have him write down what he is meant to be working on and what he can work on next when he has it done. And then he checks it or crosses it off. So he learns to work on one task at a time before moving to the next. I'll have to ask his intervention teacher what they can do.

 

Next year, in sixth grade, they have study hall. Study hall will be a complete waste for him. I mean, I do not want to pay tuition money for him to sit at a desk for forty-five minutes doing nothing and then come home with a pile of work for homework. He really just can't sit in a chair and work through things without some direct help or structure. As we think ahead to next year while planning out his IEP services, we're going to have to address this study hall issue. Maybe he can have some kind of intervention during that time instead. We'll have to figure it out.

 

But if the school can work with him this year to do better on his independent work during his actual class time, and create some kind of schedule or checklist, and teach him to use it, maybe he could manage a study hall better.

Yeah, that was an issue here, too.  Study hall was unproductive without outside structure.

 

Any chance someone or even you could sit with him and help him use that time to do homework?  At DD's school they did actually let me come in and sit with her during study sessions.  I was able to help her stay on task and get through some things.  Not a ton, but at least it wasn't a complete waste of her time.

[Storygirl]

Yeah, that was an issue here, too.  Study hall was unproductive without outside structure.

 

Any chance someone or even you could sit with him and help him use that time to do homework?  At DD's school they did actually let me come in and sit with her during study sessions.  I was able to help her stay on task and get through some things.  Not a ton, but at least it wasn't a complete waste of her time.

 

I'll have to see about that possibility. For me to go myself wouldn't work very well logistically, because we live too far from the school, and I still homeschool one child, so I can't be absent from home regularly. But maybe study hall is an area where we could request that he have an aide.

 

I'm trying to think outside the box about this as well. DS11 will have some scholarship money next year, and it will be worth more than the school tuition, so we maybe could apply some of it to getting outside help for therapy not offered by the school (the school offers academic intervention but no counseling or OT, etc.). I've wondered if the school would allow an outside therapy provider to come to the school to work with him during study hall.

 

He has more options for electives in sixth grade, so I suppose it may be possible just to schedule him so that he has an extra elective and no study hall. But it would have to be something that wouldn't require extra homework or stress. Something like an extra art class, maybe.

[OneStepAtATime]

I'll have to see about that possibility. For me to go myself wouldn't work very well logistically, because we live too far from the school, and I still homeschool one child, so I can't be absent from home regularly. But maybe study hall is an area where we could request that he have an aide.

 

I'm trying to think outside the box about this as well. DS11 will have some scholarship money next year, and it will be worth more than the school tuition, so we maybe could apply some of it to getting outside help for therapy not offered by the school (the school offers academic intervention but no counseling or OT, etc.). I've wondered if the school would allow an outside therapy provider to come to the school to work with him during study hall.

 

He has more options for electives in sixth grade, so I suppose it may be possible just to schedule him so that he has an extra elective and no study hall. But it would have to be something that wouldn't require extra homework or stress. Something like an extra art class, maybe.

Sounds like you have some really good possibilities.  I have faith you will be successful in finding a solid course of action.

[PeterPan]

Teacher Created Resources 5 Minute Sand Timer - Large (20660)  I knew I wasn't crazy!  It was on the TCR site.  I liked a lot of their stuff actually.  It wasn't quite as boring as your more typical workbooks.  

 

Here's some searching on TCR, just to show you (Kbutton) what I was talking about  https://www.teachercreated.com/products/search-results.php?q=math&level=2nd-grade

 

And then if that link actually shows the search, you can see it filtered for 2nd grade.  So I searched math and narrowed to 2nd grade.  Then you turn up nifty products like:

 

Cut and Paste: Math

Holiday Graph Art

Cut and Paste: Science  

 

etc.  Things like that would work well in independent work bins.  People call it busy work.  I call it fine motor, learning to transition, learning to follow a plan, teacher control.  And I think even *Give Mom a Break!* is a worthy goal, kwim?  I really like the structure of this.  It's so brief.  TinMan stuff is cool.  I usually just raid my stashes and find 5 things in 5 different categories (fine motor, sequencing, coloring, creating, etc.).  Little craft kits can go in the bins.  We did shrinky dinks one time, and that was fun.  To me, I'm finally getting done a lot of these little separate ideas I couldn't get to.  If he can read well enough to follow instructions, then art projects with 3-5 steps would work.  Break the project over 2-3 days if it's longer.  As long as he can do each thing 5-7 minutes and move to the next thing, it works.  Then use that sand timer to drive it.  Teaching them to break a task into chunks and do a bit each day is a really important thing and NOT natural with ADHD.  

 

Not that you have to do it like that, lol.  I'm just tossing out ideas.  I used twist timers with dd, back before we all had these phone and whatnot.  Then I got a digital oxo timer.  It's fine, but for certain things that 5 minute sand timer would be more than adequate and simpler to use.  Instead of hitting buttons and realizing he deleted the time or changed it, all he would do is flip and keep going.  My dd only has two speeds: FAST and s-l-o-w...  That momentum thing is important for her.  

[PeterPan]

Storygirl, yes I'd be SHOCKED if the ps didn't put some kind of EF supports into your IEP.  That was actually what drove me to this, because I realized I had been TOLD by the ps what would help him (it's in his IEP to use visual schedules), but I wasn't DOING it.  I had been told by multiple ladies on the board here too.  Actually, I was just crazy overwhelmed.  I'm guessing in the ps someone helps make that happen too, that it doesn't all fall to the teacher.  So for me, trying the visual schedules was about giving the IEP a fair chance and doing the stuff.  I didn't want to go back and say I was having problems but I hadn't tried what they said.  But I bought the kits to make it easy.  I really couldn't sort it out, with all the ideas and strategies.  I had to actually print everything and sit down with it and try things and figure out where that would go in my house and how that would fit the flow of our lives.  I didn't want to impose a structure so much as bring in a structure to fill in our cracks, to make what we already had work better.

 

I really don't know what kind of structure your ds11 needs.  You might try something simple, just to see how it would go.  Can you talk with him and develop a list of what he needs to do in his study hall?  It could be that the teacher helps him generate it for 5 minutes before he leaves to go there.  Or it could be that you talk with the teacher and print one that he uses where it says something more generic like math homework, spelling homework, deep breathing, read a pleasure book, and have check boxes.  Whatever.  Just saying that wouldn't be a hard change to pull off.  

[Lecka]

I have "seen" executive function IEP goals.  I don't know anything about them first hand, or what section they are under, or anything.  I don't have them.

 

But I have seen executive function IEP goals in lists of sample IEP goals.  

 

They do exist.  

 

I have had outside providers come in to school.  

 

It has varied. 

 

We definitely have to have permission from the building principal.  

 

Then, I have had "privacy concerns for other children" mentioned -- but it is like, they don't want them to video tape kids, and they want to make sure the people going in have ethical standards for not disclosing information about other children.  

 

It has not been a big deal, but only b/c the building principals say "yes," if you know what I mean.  

[PeterPan]

Story, I think the ps is going to have some methodologies for you and they're going to put them into his IEP.  I don't know what they are, but I think they will.  You're right that sometimes just the process of check the list has to be taught and supported.  I really don't know if your ds needs visual or needs words or what.  I also make pages for him so he can see the steps to tasks.  Anything I'm trying to make independent, I give him a page like that for.  Once he has the visual in his mind, he can do it better.  So sometimes it's not even a permanent thing but a tool to get to visualization.

 

You know, I think the Christine Reeve TPT stuff has something really different, like small visual schedule cards (REALLY small), that go on a key ring.  That would be very age-appropriate for him and very discrete.  It would also be physical.  And maybe that's not what he needs.  I'm just saying there are more ideas out there, more tools.  The frustration is being stuck in this limbo, waiting for more evals, waiting for the system to decide to do it.  Look at the gap I had.  We're cool this year, but I spent literally ALL LAST YEAR sorting this junk out.  

 

You might look at Reeve's stuff on TPT and filter it by grade level to get to something appropriate.  It would at least let you see more options in that vein.  

[PeterPan]

I'm a goof!  Here Autism Pre-K - Elementary Classroom Visual Bundle Solid Colors (special ed)  This is the same visual schedule kit I'm using.  She marks it as being PreK-6th.  Anyway, if you look at the previews and pics, she shows the key ring method I was telling you about.  I could totally see that working for an older boy.  It could be very hip.  You could print his pictures small and make them exactly what he needs.  I just checked, and her set is more for behavioral.  But I'm saying use the idea and tweak.

[Lecka]

Storygirl, this is based on my son....

 

There is a difference between teaching him or tutoring him, to help him learn new skills..... and teaching him independent work skills. 

 

If he needs to be tutored, he can't (so much) be tutored and work on independent work skills at exactly the same time.

 

Maybe both can be incorporated.

 

But I am not sure you wouldn't rather have him get some tutoring during study hall.  He might need tutoring and homework help, and then separately he might be able to have some things that are appropriate for independent work skills.

 

But if he needs help to learn math, maybe math homework is not the place to work on independent work skills. 

 

You can also think about, if one of these is easier for you to work on at home, have the other be done at school. 

 

So, would you rather tutor him, or support him learning to do homework on his own?  What are your goals? 

 

B/c maybe you don't want to press "pause" on math just to work on independent work skills.  It might not mean that if he can work on math independently and learn from it.... but if he needs to be tutored in math, then that is what he needs, having him work on his own will NOT change that. 

 

You will also have a lot of goals, and these might not even be top goals.  But if he needs tutoring, then you can't replace tutoring with independent work skills, even if he needs that, too.

 

Or maybe you can, maybe they can go together for him. 

 

But it would be really different purposed for study hall, possibly. 

[PeterPan]

Just to say what Lecka is saying but at a lower level or for a lower age, ds' stuff that he does as independent work is NOT at instructional level.  It's stuff he can do easily/quickly.  Most people would think of it as busywork.  If independence is a goal, remember you can also work on it with things like morning routines, etc.  I give my ds pages (visual schedules) to help him be independent with things like packing his bag for swim class.  

[Guest]

That quote makes a lot of sense.

 

Part of my context is -- public school. Here, planners are required for older students, and my 5th grader has a planner, and he is required to write his assignments down in it, and write down things on the days they will happen sometimes, like field trips or a test. I am supposed to sign his planner every day, and use it to write notes to his teacher.

 

Planners are required anyway, for everybody. I don't know about for older kids, but it is required for 4th, 5th, and 6th grade in elementary school. I don't know what they have at middle school.

 

So in school and in IEPs ---- there is a thought that, they are starting with a little kid in pre-school or Kindergarten, and they hope to have this kid able to use a planner by 4th grade. Kind-of.

 

But it is a given that the planner will be a goal, b/c it is just something that is part of school, and typical peers are doing it, etc.

 

But here, the planners are *100 percent* considered a visual schedule. So, a lot of kids can get IEP supports that are just to help them manage and use their planners.

 

And, it is a "school management" or "classroom management" type of goal in a lot of ways, too.

 

I am just in a situation where -- when I am hearing about visual supports, it is a given to everyone, that in school kids use planners starting in 4th grade. So it is a given that there is a certain type of visual schedule that typical peers will be using, and that other members of the community will be familiar with and able to support the student's use of the planner.

 

B/c it is a school district thing, all the kids in the school district have planners purchased for them in 4th-6th, it is just a given, for all the kids in public school. It is going to be considered optimal b/c it is what we have here.

When I spoke about weaning them off I was specifically referring to task related visual supports. Not planner type schedules. We use those here also. Planners and to do lists is what I mainly use for my oldest and what I am starting to use with my youngest. I have made a couple of others for my oldest in the past when I felt he needed them. He used them for a couple of months and then we got rid of them. I wouldn't hesitate to use them again if we needed to, but so far I have not seen the need with him again and have not seen it with my youngest. This is why I have said I am starting my youngest with a basic daily and school-time schedules and then will create others as needed. We use regular school type curriculum though and for that he needs me. For independent time he has his own interests that he works on and I just help him figure out what to do when I am needed. We work together if he needs to make something that he needs my help with or I make or buy things that are beyond his years. He is very methodical when he is working on things he is passionate about and so is my oldest. My oldest started building with K'Nex when he was 5. He is now designing his own with K'Nex and Lego and he also uses some for his animation videos on his tablet. I just ordered him the Hue camera kit (Animation Studio) for his computer and some Lego materials he needed.

 

Both need the schedules specifically for time management and that is where my focus is. That's the EF skill we need to work on in our home for my oldest, while starting to introduce it with my youngest.

[kbutton]

So many things to think about--every test that is coming back is showing that motor planning (in every area) pretty much sucks. I am wondering if ADHD is even a fair label to pin on a kid that is being "hit below the belt" in every possible way. I could not concentrate at all, ever with what he has going on. Even the times that he wants to be up and moving are things that the OT sees as being related to his low muscle tone--it's like he needs the proprioceptive input. I don't know. It's all just a mess at this point.

 

I don't have ADHD, but living with people who do plus this little guy with whatever makes me feel as though I do. I can't imagine being inside of him right now with all of this stuff malfunctioning. 

 

Sorry, digesting a lot of possiblities. I am really glad NP testing is so soon.

 

Today he wanted to do origami, and he wanted to make a coil pot while reading about the Anasazi. But when I find activity books with this kind of stuff, he totally thinks it would be stupid. Sigh again.