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BTDT. Pray about it if you're inclined that way, have the soft approach and start there.  Have a hard approach as back up in case you need it. Educational neglect is a crime, so someone needs to ask some questions. It may be happening in this situation.  Things may be just fine. 

 

I just had a conversation yesterday with my brother (51) about his 18 year old, pregnant daughter who didn't graduate on time this spring because she was 1 credit short.  His divorce from his wife (with severe psychiatric problems and is abusive)  her mother, will be finalized in a couple of weeks.  His daughters (the other is 17) and he live with my mother and step-dad.  Her baby is due in 4 weeks.  Her baby's father is a high school drop out who left the state when he found out she was pregnant. She's enrolled online and doesn't appear to be doing much according to my mother.  Lots of texting, not much studying.   My  mother was freaking out and my brother is overwhelmed with all the stuff he's dealing with. My mom and  step-dad's attempts to talk to him were met with defensiveness from both my brother and my niece.

 

Yes, I was concerned.  Yes, I did talk to him about it.  I started soft, focusing on my sympathy for all this troubles, how overwhelming it must be, my worry about his daughter's situation and asked him if there's anything I could do to help.  He responded very positively and insisted that this pregnant daughter follow up with the online school today and set up a specific detailed daily and weekly plan to finish up before her due date at the end of the month.

Three years ago I had another conversation with him about some erratic behavior I observed in his wife.  A parent of my niece's friend contacted mutual friend we share asking her to let me know about some erratic behavior she observed in my SIL.  She described several instances of it in an email to me and I copied it and chatted with my brother about it. I had very shortly before seen some very erratic behavior from her on a camping trip that he couldn't attend but the wife and girls did.  I stated my observations as objectively and softly as possible. Again I focused on sympathy for his situation, listened to all his legitimate woes (quite a list)  offered to help in any way I could while stating several times that specific things had to change and qualified, licensed help (mandatory reporter) had to be involved for the sake of the kids.  He was receptive and got the ball rolling with professional help within the week. I also enlisted another sibling (on the camping trip who saw the odd behavior) and my step-dad to try to talk to him, but he didn't respond favorably to either.

 

Meanwhile my husband and I quietly discussed the possibility of getting our fosterparent certification updated so if it came to CPS involvement, my nieces could land with us and stay with us.  I accepted the offer of the parent of my niece's friend that if my brother didn't follow through with licensed, professional help that she would call CPS (to help me avoid a situation that might make him cut me out of his life.)   She had already notified the school (mandatory reporters) that her daughters and my nieces attended about what she had observed.  I'm so glad my brother did follow through even though things got worse before they got better, because they couldn't stay the way they were. It was a long, hard process but it had to be done.  Someone had to be willing to be the bad guy for the sake of the kids, so it may as well be me.

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Food, clothing, and medical isn't quite as subjective a need as education. Or, rather, I should say that the way to obtain it, give it, and what it should like isn't as relative.

Would I butt in if a parent were only feeing their child McDonald's every day? No, because she is feeding them and WHAT a child is fed IS relative.

Would I butt in if I saw a child in public school failing and obviously behind? No, because the child is receiving an education, even if it isn't up to my standards or the way I would do it.

It's easy to determine if a parent isn't giving a child food or medical care; it's just more tangible. Education is different, imo; there are a million-ten different ways to "give" an education, many less obvious than others.

This...The problem with this entire situation is the assessment being used...Terms like "educational neglect" differ wildly depending on who you talk to, and their standards of what an education should entail...The food example above is a good one...We would not "step in" because we disagreed with someone's choice of diet for her child, but we get to "step in" based on our opinions of what an education should look like...

 

There are plenty of people being truly neglected by their parents...I grew up in the ghetto were real neglect was rampant...I can't even imagine someone contacting anyone in social services due to children being behind peers in matters of education...

 

Parents do all kinds of things that I don't agree with, from schooling, clothing and food choices to discipline or the lack there of issues...No one would consider stepping in on those issues, but when it comes to matters involving home education, people somehow feel entitled to assess people based on their standards, and actually try to do something about it...

 

As much as we would like to sometimes, we can't parent other people's children...Life is about more than learning what your peers are learning at the same time they are learning it...Not doing that does not equal neglect...Might make things harder for the child down the road, but so do so many other parenting choices that people don't bat an eye at...

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OK, this REALLY hits a nerve.

 

There is NO WAY for aunt to have a CLUE if the kids have LDs unless she lives and works with them closely over a long period of time.  And some stuff is nearly INVISIBLE or just seems "quirky" or whatever. My older daughter seems completely normal (and she is in almost all ways), is responsible, fun, and gets along well with others... but has learning disabilities that an outsider would have no friggen clue about.  Honestly, if you saw some of her schoolwork and heard me vent about burn out and taking breaks, it all just looks like educational neglect, but it is SO not that.  She and I have worked HARD over the years.  Try, fail, try something else, small victory, keep trying, ugh - hit a wall, take a break, regroup, try again, slow progress, pause to regroup (again), get up and try one more time with a new approach.... rinse and repeat.

 

I know at least one of my young, childless relatives who is a new teacher thinks I'm doing a craptastic job based on where DD is at.  Whatever. I give her opinion the weight it deserves.

 

If my sisters kids had a diagnosed LD, I would know about it because they would tell me. 

 

It's entirely possible that this woman knows quite well that the kids have not been diagnosed with anything, and she is simply saying that as far as she can see, there is no undiagnosed issue.

 

If there is an undiagnosed issue, that would tend to support her view that there is educational neglect going on, even if it is in no way intentional.

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If my sisters kids had a diagnosed LD, I would know about it because they would tell me. 

 

It's entirely possible that this woman knows quite well that the kids have not been diagnosed with anything, and she is simply saying that as far as she can see, there is no undiagnosed issue.

 

If there is an undiagnosed issue, that would tend to support her view that there is educational neglect going on, even if it is in no way intentional.

I wonder how many share this information?  My nephew was diagnosed with dyslexia in 5th grade.  I didn't find out until he was in High School.  I just knew that he had had some struggles in school.  

 

My other nephew (different parents) has severe dysgraphia.  They shared much earlier because it was something that was VERY obvious any time he attempted to write anything, including his name.  Plus, since his handwriting was completely illegible, the school was giving him fits over his work and some teachers were really mean about it, in fact.  That came up in conversation a lot until the school finally accepted that he really wasn't going to improve much, no matter what the remediation, and allowed him to type everything.  Otherwise, I don't think they would have said anything at all to the rest of us.  It is a close knit family in some respects but in others, they are a pretty tight lipped bunch.  

 

You are right, though, it is entirely possible that the kids have not been officially diagnosed with anything and the sister knows this because she knows her sister would have shared that information with her.  On the flip side, undiagnosed does not automatically mean educational neglect, either.  She may very well be providing them with a solid education, instinctively choosing what works best for that child.  Many do.  It just means that because of the individual needs of the child the academic path for that child may very well look quite different than the academic path of a NT child.  FWIW, my DD was undiagnosed through beginning of 5th but I was reteaching every.single.blessed.subject.every.single.day when she came home from school, sometimes WAAAAAAAY differently than how they were teaching her at school, and she was able to make it through school with my scaffolding and additional instruction even without an eval.  I regret that we didn't get evals sooner but I guarantee I was not neglecting her needs.  

 

If there ARE undiagnosed LDs, and the mom doesn't know to ask questions or is afraid to ask questions and seek help, then the sister might be in a good position to give her the needed nudge to seek outside assistance with what might be happening.  I will say, though, that unsolicited advice from a family member with no kids and no direct experience with educating these children may just push them to be even less likely to get answers.  She needs to tread very carefully, whether there are diagnosed/undiagnosed LDs or not.

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I wonder how many share this information?  My nephew was diagnosed with dyslexia in 5th grade.  I didn't find out until he was in High School.  I just knew that he had had some struggles in school.  

 

My other nephew (different parents) has severe dysgraphia.  They shared much earlier because it was something that was VERY obvious any time he attempted to write anything, including his name.  Plus, since his handwriting was completely illegible, the school was giving him fits over his work and some teachers were really mean about it, in fact.  That came up in conversation a lot until the school finally accepted that he really wasn't going to improve much, no matter what the remediation, and allowed him to type everything.  Otherwise, I don't think they would have said anything at all to the rest of us.  It is a close knit family in some respects but in others, they are a pretty tight lipped bunch.  

 

You are right, though, it is entirely possible that the kids have not been officially diagnosed with anything and the sister knows this because she knows her sister would have shared that information with her.  On the flip side, undiagnosed does not automatically mean educational neglect, either.  She may very well be providing them with a solid education, instinctively choosing what works best for that child.  Many do.  It just means that because of the individual needs of the child the academic path for that child may very well look quite different than the academic path of a NT child.  FWIW, my DD was undiagnosed through beginning of 5th but I was reteaching every.single.blessed.subject.every.single.day when she came home from school, sometimes WAAAAAAAY differently than how they were teaching her at school, and she was able to make it through school with my scaffolding and additional instruction even without an eval.  I regret that we didn't get evals sooner but I guarantee I was not neglecting her needs.  

 

If there ARE undiagnosed LDs, and the mom doesn't know to ask questions or is afraid to ask questions and seek help, then the sister might be in a good position to give her the needed nudge to seek outside assistance with what might be happening.  I will say, though, that unsolicited advice from a family member with no kids and no direct experience with educating these children may just push them to be even less likely to get answers.  She needs to tread very carefully, whether there are diagnosed/undiagnosed LDs or not.

 

I totally agree with you.

 

I am just surprised that so many people are assuming the sister has no clue, or isn't able to see if something might be a real problem.  Based on the information given, I don't see how they could know that. 

 

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If my sisters kids had a diagnosed LD, I would know about it because they would tell me. 

 

It's entirely possible that this woman knows quite well that the kids have not been diagnosed with anything, and she is simply saying that as far as she can see, there is no undiagnosed issue.

 

If there is an undiagnosed issue, that would tend to support her view that there is educational neglect going on, even if it is in no way intentional.

 

 If there is an undiagnosed LD that doesn't indicate educational neglect (intentional or otherwise).  That only indicates that the parents haven't figured out what's going on yet.  It's not always obvious or easy to see. 

 

Good grief.  My sister - who loves my kids dearly and sees them regularly - doesn't know about DD's diagnosis, our efforts over the course of YEARS to figure out a way to get an eval, or most of the specific struggles DD has.  

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 If there is an undiagnosed LD that doesn't indicate educational neglect (intentional or otherwise).  That only indicates that the parents haven't figured out what's going on yet.  It's not always obvious or easy to see. 

 

Good grief.  My sister - who loves my kids dearly and sees them regularly - doesn't know about DD's diagnosis, our efforts over the course of YEARS to figure out a way to get an eval, or most of the specific struggles DD has.  

 

Yes, but you have no idea what this woman's sister would tell her.  For all any of us know, they have long conversations about it.  They seem to talk about school to some extent anyway. 

 

Your sister would not know.  In another family, they would.   So I don't see how we can do anything other than take the comment at face value - It was a very limited statement in any case - "as far as I can see" seems to suggest that there is nothing obvious but it is a possibility she wouldn't discount.

 

And no, it doesn't mean neglect if there is an LD that has not been found.  If there is one and the mother is totally unaware there is a problem at all because they are doing very little school, and so it is not even being considered, or she is not responding intuitively as was suggested above, that could be something that will impact that child negatively in the long term. 

 

The situation could be almost anything.  She could be right to be concerned, or it might be that it is fine.  gathering information to have a clearer view seems pretty reasonable.

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I agree that educational neglect is real and it does happen in homeschool families. If this genuinely the case then my suggestion would be to voice her concerns, see if the mother is receptive and makes real changes, offer help if you can (babysitting littles so big kids can have one on one work time with mom), and see if school starts getting done. If not, then I would probably make a report. Not sure whom to? School district?

 

However I think what the majority is stating is with so little info to go on, it's hard to say if educational neglect is happening or if auntie is just either against homeschooling or has some skewed ideas of what level the kids are at. Without clear examples it's hard to say yes it's neglect. In the past a post was made were it was pretty clearly neglect and the op did intervene.

 

I think as homeschoolers lots of us have had well meaning relatives and friends disapprove of homeschooling and try to quiz our kids or gage if they are "at grade level" so the knee jerk reaction without lots of info could be, "does auntie with no kids know where kids should be academically?"

 

The other thing is homeschoolers take no traditional approaches to educating their kids. So, if a 6 year old isn't reading and us spending most of their time making mud pies and crafting and baking with mom, aunt might think neglect. It might not occur to her that child will learn to read next year and will likely finish the year reading at grade level since he's "ready" because that isn't the societal norm.

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Yes, but you have no idea what this woman's sister would tell her.  For all any of us know, they have long conversations about it.  They seem to talk about school to some extent anyway. 

 

Your sister would not know.  In another family, they would.   So I don't see how we can do anything other than take the comment at face value - It was a very limited statement in any case - "as far as I can see" seems to suggest that there is nothing obvious but it is a possibility she wouldn't discount.

 

And no, it doesn't mean neglect if there is an LD that has not been found.  If there is one and the mother is totally unaware there is a problem at all because they are doing very little school, and so it is not even being considered, or she is not responding intuitively as was suggested above, that could be something that will impact that child negatively in the long term. 

 

The situation could be almost anything.  She could be right to be concerned, or it might be that it is fine.  gathering information to have a clearer view seems pretty reasonable.

 

But why should she involve the OP?

 

If she and her sister are close enough that she knows about her nieces' and nephews' learning differences, she could ask her sister about her homeschool.

 

If she needs to know why the children seem to be behind, she could ask her sister.

 

That would be the way to gather information. The OP doesn't even know the family.

 

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I agree with the myob.

For an example: my mil, who I adore and is very close to the kids, just recently (6years in) realised that with Homeschooling, I could do devotionals with the kids during the day! All the years of talking about what the kids are doing didn't register... I could see someone like them being genuinely worried without accurately understanding.

It's just very difficult to even comprehend what is going on in another person's kid's brain!

I generally am one to respectfully speak up for a decent education- just had a conversation the other day that yes, your kid should be taught algebra before graduation, and outsource if you can't do it!

Eta, I would advise her to continue being a loving, encouraging aunt!

And this! Some family members do not approve of homeschooling and won't no matter what I tell them. If I talk about our days, it's literally like they shut their ears to the good stuff and draw a blank face. They might as well plug their ears and sing "la, la, la, I am not listening!" But then they'll try to pick up on virtually anything that sounds negative (or they can make negative).

 

I need to work on probably filtering or not sharing our days so much, which sucks because this is what we do. It's not sharing a huge chunk of our life. It's what brings meaning to our days. But it is what it is.

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But why should she involve the OP?

 

If she and her sister are close enough that she knows about her nieces' and nephews' learning differences, she could ask her sister about her homeschool.

 

If she needs to know why the children seem to be behind, she could ask her sister.

 

That would be the way to gather information. The OP doesn't even know the family.

 

 

My impression was that she wanted to find out more about homeschooling, and that was the capacity the OP was being asked for information.  That they were close enough that they could talk about things, but didn't live really close by.

 

We don't know if they are close enough to know about about LDs, or if in fact that would be necessary - not everyone is private about such things, I know about the LDs of some kids whose parents I only know casually.  All we know is that as far as she can see, that isn't an obvious issue and her sister hasn't said anything about it, and says she slacks on school sometimes.  She may be right on about it, or not.

 

We don't really know why or under what conditions her sister decided to homeschool.  Not all parents who make that decision actually know much about the larger ideas or thought in the homeschooling community.  It may be that she doesn't seem to have much sense of a program or plan or goal, and that is what she is worried about. We don't really know what specific sort of advice she wants, because it seems like she hasn't asked yet, that's why she wants to have dinner.

 

I think though it is a bit odd that on the one hand people think she is crazy to ask someone she thinks knows about homeschooling for advice, while at the same time saying she doesn't know enough about homeschooling or kids to judge, and that she shouldn't butt in because there may not be a problem and it will offend her sister.

 

Maybe she wants to avoid offending her sister, so she is asking someone else to give her some perspective before she decides its serious enough that she should but in..

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But why should she involve the OP?

 

If she and her sister are close enough that she knows about her nieces' and nephews' learning differences, she could ask her sister about her homeschool.

 

If she needs to know why the children seem to be behind, she could ask her sister.

 

That would be the way to gather information. The OP doesn't even know the family.

 

 

I think the person wants to involve the OP to have someone who agrees and backs up her claims since she doesn't have any children...People usually like to have more than one person saying what they are, sort of like doubling up on someone...It would be easier for the person to ignore her sister, but having a third party's input is more compelling...

 

Never get involved as a third party to anything you don't know about for sure...The first to present a case always appears right until a second person comes and challenges him...

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For heaven' sake! 

OP, if someone asks you about a situation where they think there's an educational problem going on with someone's homeschool, tell them, "If you think there may be a problem ask the homeschooling mother about it in the most  non-threatening way you can. There's no other way to know anything and guessing just shouldn't be done." 

Sheesh!  Just tell the woman to get some actual information from the actual person who would know.  There's no way to know without asking the homeschooling mother about what auntie thinks she's seeing in polite, plain English. Appearances can be deceiving so she needs to keep that in mind. In the real world it can either be perfectly fine or it can be a problem. 

  

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I'm sorry to not have been on the thread. I had to drive to TN to stay with my nephew who had to go in the hospital after aspirating during a seizure.

 

This friend knows my dh and I well and is seeking out advice before or if doing anything. They trust our opinions spiritually and educationally. We homeschool, and Dh is a public school teacher. I think it's a good thing they want to talk to another homeschooler before doing anything. It's not gossip if you are truly seeking wise counsel, IMO.

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The person cannot possibly know if the children are actually behind. So, they should keep their mouth shut. On that note, would they approach someone with a public schooled child about being behind? Not likely.

I plan to ask them that very thing. Honestly, they might would because they might be willing to offer help, pay for tutoring, etc.

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Honestly, I have a childless sister, we have had some years that may have looked lean from the outside (moving, new baby). I am 100% confident in our homeschool. I'd be seriously hurt and angry if she roped a random (to me) homeschooler into 'talking' to me or checking on me.

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I have a friend who would like to get some advice from me, so I'd like to get some from here. This friend has no children (because couple can't have children) but has nieces and nephews who are homeschooled. The kids are really, really behind. These kids do not seem to have learning disabilities, and my friend thinks it is because the parent is not diligent in having a structured learning environment. 

 

Should this person even bring up the issue and suffer in silence? I say suffer because this person loves their nieces and nephews and wants them to do well in life. If this person should bring up the subject, how is the best way to do it?  

 

I know this person feels very close to the sibling who is homeschooling, so I think that would help. 

 

Thanks for any advice I can pass along. It's really for a friend, not me in some secretive fashion!  

 

 

Oh, maybe something like:

 

"Sis, when I took John and Jane to the store the other day I was concerned when I realized that though they are almost 18 they could not read the signs on the grocery aisles.  I was wondering if maybe they are having some vision problems or what might be going on with that and if there is anything I can do to help?  Please forgive me if you feel this is butting in and none of my business."

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Unlike some other posters, I will say that, depending on your friend's relationship with her sibling, I think the welfare of these children she loves is a high enough priority that she should risk broaching the subject gently. In the end, they are not her children, obviously, but if she is invested in their lives and has a close connection with her sibling, she could find a loving way to express her concern. I wouldn't suggest that she put it in terms of, "I think they are so far behind," but rather ask, "How is homeschooling going? Do you need anything? Is there anything we can do to help support you?"

 

I used to be more "mind your business," but I've seen what happens to the children in some situations. A loving relative who truly cares and has the best interests of everyone in mind can make a positive difference. Sometimes, that involves a gentle confrontation or questioning. What's wrong with being honest in close relationships? I think that pretending you don't see a thing that is harmful contributes to its perpetuation. We're not (I hope) talking about an unhealthy, narcissistic control-freak who wants to wreak havoc on a diligently homeschooling family.

 

Is this a loving aunt? If so, then IMO that earns her some pocket change -- some right to speak the truth in love. HTH.

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Sometimes people feel bad asking for help. I don't see OP's friend as being a busybody if she offer to help in whatever way the friend's sister might accept.

 

Even simple things like babysitting so that the sister could have a date night. Gifting a family membership at YMCA. Or even gifting an amazon prime membership for those times the sister needs two day delivery.

 

My parents are too old to babysit but they paid for parents night out to help us have some downtime. It was a sanity saver.

 

Maybe the sister might have things on her wish list that she would be happy to let her sibling help fulfil but feels awkward to ask.

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This person loves their family and is concerned, not just being judgmental for no reason. The couple asked me about us having dinner together to discuss it further, so they are seeking counsel before doing anything. I think that shows wisdom, too.

 

:iagree: If your friend really thinks there is educational neglect occurring, it shows wisdom for her to seek counsel before deciding what to do.

 

I disagree. You have no authority to evaluate the family, and no right to encourage gossip and speculation...

 

This isn't gossip, this is one friend seeking counsel from another, regarding a situation with children who very well may be educationally neglected, no matter how fed and dressed they are. Perhaps OP's friend wants perspective from a mother and homeschooler, and this (IMO) shows maturity and wisdom.

 

FWIW, I also don't think it's as relevant that the friend doesn't have children as it would be to ask "What is her experience with children -- in general and with these children in particular?" If she sees them once a year and has an opinion, well... But if she's a regular occurrence in their lives, she does see things!

 

When my nephews were born, I was childless, but I had more experience with babies and children than my sister had in a month of Sundays. So, sure, she was the mother, but she called me to ask how to bathe them and how to feed them and dress them and on and on. In their first years of life, I spent nearly as much time with them as she did... and none of it screaming at them or shaking them, so...

 

Childless people can have vast experience with and correct perspectives on children. And, whether or not they do have this, their sincere concern for children they love should not be discounted because "they couldn't have children." That is cruel and that is hogwash.

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I have a sister-with-no-children who likes to be involved in her nieces/nephews lives. She happens to be good friends with a homeschooling family who has a completely different 'style' of HSing. She has no idea what my kids are like other than what I tell her or what the kids might say during the limited time of year they are with her. The possibility of misunderstanding is immense since we aren't that close.

 

FWIW, I have a nephew who is 2E. The parents have not told either this particular sister or my mother because of either their attitude toward 2E kids or interpersonal relationship issues. Both non-informed relatives have made comments to me & asked me to counsel this other sibling on what to do for this child who seems out of control to them. I told them both that the parents are doing what is best for him already and, gently, to MYOB.

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Would it occur to your friend to question how the children were doing academically if they were in school? 

 

In my case, absolutely. If my nieces or nephews were significantly behind (and one was, actually), it would be a topic of conversation. The child who was terribly behind had a host of issues going on, and everything that could reasonably be done to help her was being done. Family discussed it frequently  ... not in a gossipy way, but in a "how can we help?" way.

 

If my nieces or nephews were in school and were not learning or performing, I would absolutely bring it up. I don't consider it meddling to express concern. Family looks out for one another. Family speaks up when they see a potential problem. 

 

I don't see love having anything to do with it. Parents can love their kids and still struggle to do the right thing for them.

 

My SIL once approached me because my oldest complained to her about not liking her therapist. SIL was concerned that dd's needs weren't being met. SIL didn't have all the information (she only got dd's side of it), but we had a conversation about it, and I appreciated that someone outside our immediately family took an interest in my kid's well-being.

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In my case, absolutely. If my nieces or nephews were significantly behind (and one was, actually), it would be a topic of conversation. The child who was terribly behind had a host of issues going on, and everything that could reasonably be done to help her was being done. Family discussed it frequently  ... not in a gossipy way, but in a "how can we help?" way.

 

If my nieces or nephews were in school and were not learning or performing, I would absolutely bring it up. I don't consider it meddling to express concern. Family looks out for one another. Family speaks up when they see a potential problem. 

 

I don't see love having anything to do with it. Parents can love their kids and still struggle to do the right thing for them.

 

My SIL once approached me because my oldest complained to her about not liking her therapist. SIL was concerned that dd's needs weren't being met. SIL didn't have all the information (she only got dd's side of it), but we had a conversation about it, and I appreciated that someone outside our immediately family took an interest in my kid's well-being.

 

Exactly, to the bolded.  That is why we have family and community.  It is a good thing for kids to have people other than the parents who are looking out for them, who have relationships.  There are many many instances where that concern and those connections will be really important to a child's well-being over her lifetime.  Parents aren't omnipotent, they can't always do everything.  My sister suggested to me when she visited this summer that I should take my son to have his speech assessed - great.  I think she asked my mom first if she should.  Also great.  So, he's on the list to be assessed, which he wouldn't be otherwise.  What is the loss?  Even if I had decided not to, what's the loss?

 

People are so often feeling the lack of those things, and at the same time don't want the kind of corollary of them, which is those people will sometimes have things to say and perspectives that are different from yours.  Well, that is part of the strength of having those other people around you.

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