S/O Parental authority

[mamiof5]

So...this has been in my mind for a while, a spin off to many threads related to kids not minding their parents. My heart aches for those parents. And also from experiences I have witnessed (or close friends have also witnessed and we discuss it). What has happened to parental authority? I mean, there seems to be many kids now a days who run the show. I am very much the old fashioned mom who has high expectations from her kids, not only in academics but in anything obedience related...I am the parent, not them. Fourth commandment, "Honor thy father and thy mother" applies very much so in our household. And don't get me wrong, we are not sargeants...we allow for plenty of fun, fieldtrips, play dates with friends etc. I think our kids have a fun, well balanced life. But with those fun things come responsibilities...they wouldn't get those if they didn't mind us. I am just puzzled when people.comment that their kids only behave around others, or behave much better when they are under other people's supervision (friend's parents, teachers etc)...it baffles me! How is that OK? If they can behave perfectly around others, who tells them it's OK to not listen and respect their parents? Just trying to make sense of this. Of course, assuming a healthy child (physically and mentally). And I know not everyone believes in God, so probably the 4th Commandment means nothing to you...but still, commandment or not I am a firm believer that children have the responsibility and obligation to mind their parents. What are your thoughts? And sorry for the big block of text... my computer doesn't like this website so won't let me access it...always type from my cell (which has no word processor, so even if I use enter it doesn't show it).

[Joker]

I'm not really sure what you're asking. My dds respect us but they don't always mind us or act respectfully. We are their safe place and they act out sometimes. They are always respectful with others, though. I think that's perfectly normal and okay. We are religious, are Christians, but I think I disagree with the whole respect/obligation thing you mention in the OP. Mine are teenagers and I enjoy the discussions, disagreements, and negotiations. I honestly don't want them to blindly follow and obey just because I am the parent. They do so when it's really important.

[Rosie_0801]

There's an excellent chance that a high percentage of the children you're talking about aren't mentally healthy and you don't know it. Most children lead stressful lives.

[LucyStoner]

Different people have different values. Your post comes off as a soapbox rant. Which is fine. But you make it pretty clear you dismiss and judge those who don't have the same concept of parenting and family life. Within that framework, no real discussion is possible.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I practice both parental authority and grace based parenting.  I agree though that it seems like a rant or perhaps a sermon.  I don't see a real question here.  The "what are your thoughts" seems a bit rhetorical to me.  I feel like you're telling us that  you have the solution for all the threads on kids not minding their parents.  It's not that simple.  Despite what I said in my first sentence, I realize that my teens have a free will and will make their own choices on things.  

[Arcadia]

Today my kids were at german class for 2.5hrs. That means that they are at most on their best behaviour for 2.5hrs. My boys sleep at most for 10hrs a day. That means that they are with me and hubby for at least 11.5hrs of awake time.

 

11.5hrs >> 2.5hrs

 

I walked out on my parents (left home) when I was 7+ back in 1980 because my dad gave an ultimatum that is useless on a latchkey child. Be happy your kids are compliant.

[mamiof5]

Was not trying to be preachy or tell others what to do. Sadie worded it better than I did. Totally agree on acting as the most experienced party and providing a "frame" of what's acceptable or not. Have been exposed to many situations in which such frame is not established, children are not taught limits. I am not saying it's the case of anyone here, since I have never met you. I guess I was hoping for a healthy conversation about general parenting, didn't mean to preach or come across as judgmental. Sorry if I did. Have a great Sunday!

[creekland]

Not all humans are naturally compliant.  Some are.  Those who are generally never have a problem obeying others regardless of who they are.  This can, of course, have negative consequences when those giving orders are giving bad orders.  Hitler is an extreme example, but there are parents who get their kids to lie for them and do illegal things for them too - all because "I told you to do it."  For a compliant youngun, this can be life.  It is not necessarily a good way to be.

 

When my kids were very young - past infant, but into their toddler and preschool years - we wanted compliance.  This was mainly for their safety.  ("Don't run out into the road."  "Stay on the trail.")  We also, of course, childproofed our house to a fair extent just to be sure and watched them around anything dangerous (trails, water, etc).  We expected them to be children, after all.  Children are curious and they don't tend to stop and think.

 

Once my guys could reason, I never expected them to be compliant without a good reason for it.  Just because "I'm the mom" was rarely a good reason, but was used to enforce some household rules they disagreed with.  (Take your boots OFF when you come in the house, because it's my house and I get to make the rules for it.  When you own your house, you're welcome to different rules.  This, of course, coming after the dirt factor had been explained.)  

 

Reasons made sense to my guys - just as they do for me - so all tended to go well.

 

I was never a compliant child and still often have to overcome nature to do things I don't want to do.  Honestly?  I'll also still smile and nod and walk away doing my own thing without good reasons for doing otherwise.  I fight less than I used to, but that doesn't mean I'm compliant.  Somewhere in my teens I learned that fighting wasn't always the smartest option.  Smiling and nodding while doing my own thing brought less stress.   :coolgleamA:

 

As my guys grew into their teens we tried to establish a great team together.  As before, reasons were given for why we wanted what we wanted and/or believed what we believed.  Compliance was rarely just expected - so rarely I can't really think of a real example.  I was always willing to explain reasons.  It's what I'd have wanted myself.  

 

And as individuals, I also respect that my guys aren't "mini mes."  They are their own person.  They may, or may not, agree with me on many things.  That's ok with my friends.  That's ok with my kids.  My guys know this and it strengthened our relationship - esp for the younger two.  There are some things I'd have done differently with my oldest - mainly more freedom, not less.  I believe we were too tough with him as he aged - too slow at changing our style to match his age.

 

My guys are adults now.  If I have any regrets, it was actually being too tough on my expectations of them in their younger years - expecting more perfection than I should have.  Why?  Well, um, I'm not perfect either and I should have allowed more grace.  We all have bad days.  Most of us can easily cover it up around others, but we need a place to vent.

[creekland]

Also, the commandment relates to "honoring your father and your mother", not to "making your children honor you". What does honoring someone mean? It means you offer them loving respect from the depths of your heart. By definition, one cannot force other humans to honor oneself. One can induce fear, to be sure, but fear is a whole different kind of respect. Someone who wants to enable their children to live up to the commandment of honoring one's mother and father can only strive to be the best possible role model, the most loving and just parent, the most worthy person, not infallible but someone who strives to rectify their mistakes.  

 

I do not believe there is such a thing as honoring someone without feeling a warm, genuine respect towards that person. One can pretend, but that is not honoring someone, that is pretending.

 

:iagree:   My dad has multiple mental issues.  I honor him because he's my father.  I stay in touch with him occasionally, remember special days like his birthday with a card and gift, and try to see him at least once per year even though I'd rather not.  There's no way I'm going to do what he says just because he's my father.  Did I mention those multiple mental issues bit?  It's a great time to smile and nod, then continuing with my own thing.  I've even used him as an example with teaching my own kids.  (And yes, I know they could end up doing the same for me if I decline mentally as I age - though I plan to avoid that if it ever becomes an issue.)

 

I won't abandon him totally because he's my father, but there's nothing that says I need to do what he says - absolutely nothing.

 

I regret believing him about many things in my youth, but at that time, I was too young to understand mental issues.  It's too bad, because there are many things I missed due to his issues.  Things I can't get back - like time.

[Guest]

ive found that a lot of the time online we are sooo speaking to our own experience and why wouldn't we? That we talk past each other. For example one time I spoke about making mh son do something. Someone chimed in that she "couldn't imagine" making HER son do that and that basicaloy I was doomed to die alone in the old folks home because I don't respect my kids. Well, come to find out my kid was five and hers was 14 and the thung was wash his hair.

 

One should indeed hope to treat five year olds and teens differently!

 

We are still at the stage in life that, yes, the kids need to mind us. But the whole point is to sharpen their decision making skills so that this phase can be over for them, healthily,asap. I mean, I still have to tell my kids not to throw rocks at windows. You can betcher butt I'm relieved when they don't throw rocks at windows while under someone else's care!

[Guest]

I have an extended family member who wanted compliance as a sign of respecting parent, and obtained it from her middle and youngest by beating them in to submission. First born fled asap and is his own person. In their late 20s now, 1 is human and not always respectful, but he has joy and learns from his life experiences. 2 and 3 are not happy, but they continue to submit. Part of that is not moving out, and only working approved jobs and doing approved activities.

 

Parenting isnt about controlling your offspring, but raising them to be adults who can control themselves. Sometimes they err, and thats okay. Sometimes they want to learn by experience and that is ok too. Authoritative, not authoritarian.

Thats the other thing. So many people have seen, and FELT, the results of heavily authoritarian parenting. Often ppl have really sane, good, healthy reasons for doing things differently than the general-me.

 

I for one find it nearly impossible to have deep conversations about parenting with ppl that had superb parents themselves, that they wish to emulate. Its a completely different starting place and paradigm, ykwim?

[HomeAgain]

Children have the responsibility and obligation to become adults, not mind their parents.  They have the responsibility and obligation to do their best to be respectful of ALL people, yes.  But childhood is rather an apprenticeship.  They learn from observation, direct instruction, and making mistakes.  They also go through massive growth spurts and turn into little not nice people at points in their lives.

 

Case in point, we've spent the last 6 months with constant whining and complaining.  Took the 5yo to the library yesterday and the whining and tantrum started almost immediately because he didn't get what he wanted (then realized he didn't want what he was getting).  I'm sure everyone on the main level hated us during the 5 minutes we were there.  We came back 20 minutes later (with a perfectly calm, though sad child) and only the librarians were the same ones there.  So to everyone else, yeah, totally bad parenting to have created such a disrespectful tyrant.  To the lovely librarians, they got a chance to see how far he's come in the past 6 months and that my expectations of behavior haven't changed.  We're working on it.  I don't, and have not, ever given him what he wanted all the time.  If it coincided with other goals, sure. 

 

You don't always see everything, and don't always see the entire journey.  Learning behavior is like learning to read.  Don't knock a kid for still learning, or a teacher actively teaching.

 

 

[elegantlion]

I've heard the phrase you use here, "mind", a few times in this context now. Is it another word for "obey"? This is what I am assuming.

 

In our family, we have "business as usual mode" and "martial law mode". My two kids and I make up our entire family, and we act as a unit of three people — both individual and collective needs exist, and both are important. When you live with people, it helps to be polite to each other and to take others' needs into account. It also really helps to respect experience, but that's something that comes quite naturally and doesn't have to be imposed with harsh methods. Respecting experience also goes both ways. As my kids get older, they too are developing experience. 

 

In "business as usual mode", we are three equal people with different needs and different levels of experience and knowledge. In "martial law mode", I am the commander and the kids have to listen to me without question. "Martial law" is obviously imposed in emergency situations, like the house is on fire, a burglar is in the house, or any other situation in which real danger exists. 

 

This is similar to how we operate now. As ds is older, I rarely pull the mom card and institute "Martial law." 

 

When I was married, exdh was more authoritarian, he wanted the honor and obey just because. He had been a rebellious teen and I know he had a real underlying fear that ds would be the same way. He expressed in loving ways most of the time, but I know the fear drove it. Some of what he missed is a real understanding of who ds is, deep conversations with ds about things he wants to be or do, and his relationship with ex is quite different. 

 

Because we homeschooled, I wanted to give ds a wide berth to explore boundaries. He's also a fairly laid back kid, but since he was around me a lot, I allowed him to be himself. Safety was first when he was little, obviously. 

 

Ds does respond to logic, so I spent a lot of time explaining the whys of something. Because I said so wasn't enough many times. 

 

My outlook was to respect ds as a person and to expect him to respect as a person too. It's a two-way street. 

[FO4UR]

OP, how old are your children?

 

 

Children are born persons.  They are human beings, deserving of respect and love.  If you believe in God, then you must believe that God created them with their own unique personalities and that He has a plan for them.  What if your demand for obedience was over-riding God's desire for their lives?

 

A good parent strengthens the will of her children.  When I hear "obedience" preached hard and heavy, I lump that in with those who strive to break a child's will in order to gain control.  (Taken in any other context and we call that abuse in the USA.)  It is a weak-willed person who lacks the self-control to live well.  It takes a very strong will to thrive in this world independent of people who want to take advantage.  (I joke that I don't worry about my kids in a dark ally, but they just might drive me crazy. What I mean is that they are growing very strong wills, but are still immature at using them.)

 

Healthy children go through stages of breaking away from their parents.  Between the ages of 10-14 it is intense.  I've seen "instant obedience" turn very ugly at this point in several families.  It starts with the 10yo who sneaks behind mom's back to jump off of what he has never been allowed to jump off of (a tree, a bench, little stuff).  By 14, it's whatever he can get his hands on and all of it.  (Very scary.)  A weak-willed teen who has been trained to comply is ripe for this sort of rebellion.  They will comply to all the wrong people.  A strong willed teen who has any sort of aspirations in life can reason, at least a bit, calculates their risks....their calculations might be wrong (!!!), but they are thinking and planning.

 

Discipline is a buzz word that I hear around obedience discussions.  Discipline is 75% proactive teaching, 24% compassionate silence as the school of hard-knocks teaches, and 1% creating consequences for extreme situations. The term is sorely misused today.  The percentages are backwards and upside down.  When we step in at punish at every infraction, we are actually teaching our kids to be incompetent (blaming others for their lack of intervening) and bull-headed (not the same as strong-willed).  Bull-headedness is doing the wrong thing even though it's known to be wrong and refusing to accept the natural consequences AS a consequence to one's own actions.  A bull-headed person keeps doing the wrong thing and blaming other people for their nasty consequences on into adult years (NPD anyone?).  If you've heard a child ever do something very foolish and then say upon threat of a spanking, "But you didn't say I couldn't ________." then you've heard this interaction.  Child knew better, but pushed responsibility to someone else's shoulders.  

 

 

All parents make mistakes and revert back to their own childhood experiences at times.  It's OK to admit it.  I try to give my children as much grace as I wish to receive. I strive to improve daily, as much or more so as I expect from them.

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

I would just say that this isn't something an outsider generally knows better than the parent.  Though I'm sure there are exceptions.

Just had a fuss with a [childless] friend about the short comments of my 8yo who was tired, hungry, coming off a long week of uninterrupted stress, and had a belly ache.  Apparently I was wrong to say there was no need to go on and on about it as she cried into her ice cream at a restaurant.  I should apologize for encouraging my kid to be rotten.

[73349]

When DS was a toddler, I had him wear a backpack harness. When he was 1 and 2, that gave him as much freedom as he could manage and still be safe when we were going for walks and on outings. He loved being able to choose what direction we were going in--I only stopped him if he was going into the street or somewhere else unsafe--and having his hands free to touch everything. No chasing or scolding. By the time he was 4, we didn't need it even in museums, festivals, or airports, because he had developed the capacity to be alert to his surroundings as well as the height to comfortably hold my hand when necessary.

 

Parental authority should be like that: always as much as that child needs at that time--and not more--with the goal of building the young person's skills and self-discipline so that he can hold authority over himself. I'm hoping that by the time DS is 16 or so, I never need to deny him permission to do anything he thinks is a good idea: by that age, he ought to know what's a good idea and what he can handle.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'm not raising children, I'm raising future adults.  So obedience is not a trait I want in them.  Common sense, the ability to follow directions and the ability to defy authority when needed are only a few of the things I hope to create/instill in them.  I was raised the way you're describing and for me, the very naturally strong willed person, it didn't turn out well.  I don't plan on making the same mistakes my parents made.  

[SporkUK]

There have been kids 'running the show' since the dawn of time - we literally have clay tablets writings of parents complaining about their kids. There is nothing new or different about 'these days' that leads to non-compliant kids.  That's before we get into the giant gray area of what is a healthy mind and healthy body, the issues & stress a lot of kids face, and how those connect to compliance and behaviour, but it far easier for everyone - kids and adults of all health statuses - to behave socially appropriate for short periods of time compared to how long they are with us parents and people are more likely to release stress  and behave unsocially in safer environment like at home because for many being socially appropriate demands a lot of energy that can't be kept up all the time and home is where it should be safe to release and be a person. This is a lot of what is behind 'they behave for so and so but not me' alongside things that I see constantly as 'an issue to work on' are complete non-issues or just not a big deal because they do not see it all the time to others. Taking food without asking is not acceptable here as we adult need to know what we have as we have a tight food budget and plan, some people have open kitchen policy and see no issue with kid taking snacks as and when. 

 

I really don't like the idea that it is an obligation to obey.  Being respectful should be a responsibility towards everyone, mostly, responsibility to be caring to the family and others, sure, to help out as one can, okay, but obedience as an obligation is not an idea I'd want to impart. I'm not always right - I want them to tell me or my partner if I am talking or doing nonsense. Lots of parents ask their kids to do things that aren't in their best interest. Learning the boundaries and what is worth being non-complaint over and dealing with the consequences and figuring out what social rules are and are not worthwhile is a life skill like any other. Non-compliance is annoying and frustrating and we have to be concerned about safety and health and family/household/community wellbeing alongside indiviual, but the idea of an obligation to obey any authority makes me skin crawl especially with older kids. 

 

And an anecdotal, as a child who quoted that verse quite a bit, I became quite good at quoting the verses against parents provoking a child to anger, against exasperating their children,  in controlling children with all *dignity*, among others. Them quoting the Bible was apparently good parenting, me doing it was supposedly me being disobedient. Those types of versus caused me a lot of pain, I wrestled for ages with my wellbeing vs these verses. I then entirely fell out of Abrahamic religions and  haven't seen or spoken to my parent is almost a decade now. I eventually stopped worrying about that. I'm not putting my wellbeing at risk anymore for someone else' idea of honor. Parents are people, people aren't always right, and if you can't tell someone they're wrong then that's not much of a relationship to me. 

[SeaConquest]

I have no interest in parenting in an authoritarian manner. I strive for a peaceful and gentle parenting approach, but, being human, I end up more middle of the road. We have a happy life and (relatively) harmonious homeschool, and I have zero desire to change. If others consider me too permissive, so be it.

[MinivanMom]

Sometimes, the fact that a child is more willing to act out or express contrary opinions at home is a sign that the child feels emotionally safe there. Children will hold it together for a teacher, coach, or friends, no matter how stressed they might be. But when they come home at the end of the day, they may feel emotionally safe to finally vent their feelings or fall apart . . . because they know that parent loves them unconditionally. They may need gentle guidance as they learn to handle their emotions better (taking it out on loved ones isn't a great long-term strategy), but I certainly wouldn't assume that behaving worse for their parents = lack of respect for parents. Instead it may indicate a close and loving relationship with the parents.

 

I was always the perfectly behaved, respectful child, because I knew that my parents' love was conditional. My home was not an emotionally safe place, and I got out of there at the first opportunity.

[Runningmom80]

I have no interest in parenting in an authoritarian manner. I strive for a peaceful and gentle parenting approach, but, being human, I end up more middle of the road. We have a happy life and (relatively) harmonious homeschool, and I have zero desire to change. If others consider me too permissive, so be it.

Same.

[creekland]

One can extrapolate this much further, of course.  An employer can insist on oodles of things at their place of employment.  As a teacher, I have "authority" to "force" many issues should I choose to use it at school (grades, behavior referrals, etc).  These aren't much different than parental authority.

 

BUT, the employer/teacher who builds a rapport with their underlings more often than not gets them wanting to work for them.  Employees/students who want to work for someone will do far more and a far better job than someone doing it merely because they have to.  Not only is the work better, so is the relationship.  Not wanting to let someone you like down is a powerful motivator. 

 

Then too... no amount of discipline will stop (some) employees or students from sneaking around to try to get away with things - testing the boundaries.  There's no real need for boundaries when all are willingly on the same team.

 

All of this in no way is the same thing as "do whatever you want, 'cause I don't care." (eg Do whatever you like on that project and I'll give you your paycheck/an A.)  Rather, it's building a team to get goals accomplished.  There is building of the relationship - doing things as a team - a common understanding that employers, teachers, and parents work to build. It centers around caring for each other and establishing good communication with reason, etc.

 

"My way or discipline" is rarely a good glue to hold anything together in any of these circumstances.  Most will only stick around in those situations as long as they absolutely have to for financial reasons or similar and their thoughts/memories are seldom caring/loving.

[Serenade]

I have one very compliant child and one who is the complete opposite.  Same parenting, different kids.  I don't like it that I have one child who is often disrespectful, disobedient and generally non-compliant.  I have tried and tried, but I can't change the situation.  I haven't given up yet, but in some ways I'm resigned.  If I had the money, I'd send him off to military school where I believe they would take care of that non-compliance issue fairly quickly.  However, that still wouldn't help me in my own home.  It's not that I don't have loving moments with this child -- sometimes we have some good, quality times.  But he has never wanted to obey, not from when he was a wee child.  It doesn't matter how reasonable the request, if it is something his father or I want him to do, more likely than not he's going to try to find a way not to do it. <shrug>  The bottom line is that I can't really make him. 

[SKL]

When I was a kid, there was a family we hung out with whose kids were very well-behaved at home, because the parents were quite harsh about stuff like making a mess, accidentally breaking something, or talking back around their dad (especially the girl child).  But when they were elsewhere, like at my house, that is when they would act foolish, make a mess, break stuff, smart off at their mom.  It was so bad that my mom would say, "hide everything you want to keep, ___ are coming over."

 

We, on the other hand, were well-behaved outside of the house and not-so-perfect at home.

 

My mom always used to say she'd prefer our way any day.  Isn't it better for your kids' worst moments to happen in private, with people who love them no matter what?  Of course that doesn't mean mayhem at home is cool, but it's realistic that a healthy developing child is going to have moments when self-control is lost.  Sometimes they even need to tell a parent something the parent doesn't want to hear.

 

I have a kid who might have some attachment issues.  She sometimes does the opposite of what you'd expect.  Like, if she is stressed out, she will say things in public that she knows she should not say, just to get a reaction.  On the other hand, she is generally pretty compliant at home.  I'm glad I don't have to fight her tooth and nail at home, but I wonder whether that's partly because she doesn't completely trust me.  (I don't think it's me, since my other kid has no difficulty doing her own thing at home.  :/)

[Paige]

Judge not....what you see about people's families in public or when you are able to observe them is just a small portion of their family life. 

 

Some families value cooperation over obedience. Building this type of relationship is messier.

 

Some families are working through issues where obedience is the least of their worries.

 

Some families do their disciplining privately. 

 

 

 

[Ravin]

Honor and obey are not synonyms. I actually think the point of an admonition to honor parents is to remind parents that they must conduct themselves in a manner deserving of honor.

[BooksandBoys]

Children have the responsibility and obligation to become adults, not mind their parents. They have the responsibility and obligation to do their best to be respectful of ALL people, yes. But childhood is rather an apprenticeship. They learn from observation, direct instruction, and making mistakes. They also go through massive growth spurts and turn into little not nice people at points in their lives.

 

Case in point, we've spent the last 6 months with constant whining and complaining. Took the 5yo to the library yesterday and the whining and tantrum started almost immediately because he didn't get what he wanted (then realized he didn't want what he was getting). I'm sure everyone on the main level hated us during the 5 minutes we were there. We came back 20 minutes later (with a perfectly calm, though sad child) and only the librarians were the same ones there. So to everyone else, yeah, totally bad parenting to have created such a disrespectful tyrant. To the lovely librarians, they got a chance to see how far he's come in the past 6 months and that my expectations of behavior haven't changed. We're working on it. I don't, and have not, ever given him what he wanted all the time. If it coincided with other goals, sure.

 

You don't always see everything, and don't always see the entire journey. Learning behavior is like learning to read. Don't knock a kid for still learning, or a teacher actively teaching.

Well said.

 

I endure a lot of glares when I take my kids out. I struggle with this. We're pursuing testing for our oldest two and should have some diagnoses before the end of the year, but my graduate-level neuroscience-educated armchair diagnosis includes varying combinations of high-functioning autism, ADHD, CAPD, ODD, and SPD in these two. In other words, I have high expectations for my kids, but to a stranger, their progress, their remarkable progress, looks like they are "disrespectful, wild" children being raised by a "lazy mom."

Even my siblings and best friend thought that for years. Recently, my friend spent a week with us, the first visit since I had more than one child. At the end of the visit, she apologized for all the comments and suggestions she's made over the years because she realized that we work our butts off with these kids even though they don't act like she thinks they should.

[LucyStoner]

Was not trying to be preachy or tell others what to do. Sadie worded it better than I did. Totally agree on acting as the most experienced party and providing a "frame" of what's acceptable or not. Have been exposed to many situations in which such frame is not established, children are not taught limits. I am not saying it's the case of anyone here, since I have never met you. I guess I was hoping for a healthy conversation about general parenting, didn't mean to preach or come across as judgmental. Sorry if I did. Have a great Sunday!

Really? Because you said this was a spin off of "many threads" here and that you were sad for all those parents.

 

I don't need to be authoritarian (and that is what your first post describes) with my kids and the few times I resorted to that with my son with ASD in desperation, I took a bad situation and made it much worse. My sons listen to me when I speak with a low voice. Still, because I have a child with an invisible disability I have recieved looks, stares and admonitions that make no practical sense for him whatsoever at all. It's developmentally normal for children to be better behaved in public social situations than they are with their parents. For my son that is even more pronounced because it was so intensively difficult for him to handle those public social situations. So yeah, we saw the explosions more up close and personal. This is not a lack of respect or honor. My son was ASD makes it very clear he values me, loves and respects me in his own subtle and not so subtle ways and that is more important to me than him being perceived as minding me or being obedient.

[Desert Strawberry]

Without reading the other replies, I am sure my post about being a quitter is one of the ones you are referencing.

I do expect my kids to obey. I do not tolerate disrespect. If anything, I tend to be too demanding.

I am frustrated because I do not tolerate nonsense. If I were more permissive, we would not be having a problem. I would take what I get from my child and make my peace with it. 

I'm only posting about one of my five children (at this time), because the others are complying just fine. 

Possibly the vents you are hearing our seeing are from parents who are doing the heavy lifting just now.

 

Afa lazy/ineffective parents, that's certainly nothing new. In the past, though it was acceptable to smack your kid around and call it good. As long as you swatted your child, you could pat yourself on the back for teaching him a lesson and move right along, no matter how ineffective the lesson was. Now parenting is more involved and parents don't always have the tool kit they need to be effective.

[mamiof5]

Truly enjoyed reading all the responses. The one about children being abused made me sad, it's one of those situations that I have a hard time understanding. Believe it or not we are not authoritarian parents, we have rules in our home as anyone else, and yes, we work as a team. We have different age groups, from a 19yr old to an 11months old. We are far from perfect parents, and have had our fair share of sleepless nights bdealing with parenting issues. As kids grow older it just gets harder sometimes. No, I am not the type of mom that will judge kids misbehaving at the library or store, but I do say a prayer for the parents to have a good day. And I know I can never judge from one incident, wouldn't want anyone to think they know my kids for the one time they see them. Parenting is a tough role, wouldn't change it for anything, but for sure it's not easy. However, I do have to say I have witnessed some kids growing with no guidance, no parameters, and the results of that truly reflects on their behavior. What can I say? I guess I just worry too much? I think parenting now a days, in certain ways, is tougher than in the past. Just seeing what goes online and social media makes me shiver, and I can't help but wonder what's happening with parenting overall. Complex topic, that's all.

[maize]

Also, the commandment relates to "honoring your father and your mother", not to "making your children honor you". What does honoring someone mean? It means you offer them loving respect from the depths of your heart. By definition, one cannot force other humans to honor oneself. One can induce fear, to be sure, but fear is a whole different kind of respect. Someone who wants to enable their children to live up to the commandment of honoring one's mother and father can only strive to be the best possible role model, the most loving and just parent, the most worthy person, not infallible but someone who strives to rectify their mistakes.

 

I do not believe there is such a thing as honoring someone without feeling a warm, genuine respect towards that person. One can pretend, but that is not honoring someone, that is pretending.

You know, people do like to use that commandment to get children to mind, but it makes sense that that one, like all the rest, was directed primarily at adults not children.

[maize]

We have an interesting household, because one parent is naturally authority and rule oriented and the other is not. Seems to be genetic because we have a mix of authority and rule oriented children (the kind who pay attention and try to do what they are told) and children who are mostly oblivious to authority and rules and the more you push them to comply the more determined they become to resist.

 

I have to really encourage the rule-following crowd to think and act for themselves and not be afraid to make mistakes. And I have to work with the other group to see that things often work out more smoothly if they pay a modicum of attention to the system and that rules are usually there for a purpose. Both personalities have strengths and both have weaknesses.

[Desert Strawberry]

In light of the other replies, I feel the need to defend myself a little bit. I think I may have come off poorly. 

My children are young. Except for Sagg, who is allowed to disagree respectfully and without sass, at an appropriate time, I need my children to obey. I expect them to do chores, work diligently at schoolwork, not destroy things, not harm each other, perform basic hygiene, not be destructive, speak kindly, keep themselves relatively safe, and limit destruction. With 3 boys in 5 years, I feel more like a lion tamer than a gentle, loving mom. 

I don't rule with fear and punishment. I try to win their hearts. But once I have explained in graphic detail why we need to brush our teeth, I should not have to jump through hoops to get people to actually brush their teeth. 

[ElizaG]

I'm not raising children, I'm raising future adults.  So obedience is not a trait I want in them.  Common sense, the ability to follow directions and the ability to defy authority when needed are only a few of the things I hope to create/instill in them. 

For those who "like" this interpretation -- do you not think the trait of obedience is a necessary foundation for living as an adult in a society with the rule of law?

 

Even "the ability to defy authority when needed" seems to me to imply stepping outside the norm of obeying authority.   If someone had been raised without a habit of obedience -- and felt it was only appropriate to follow authority when the law happened to coincide with what they already wanted to do -- then there would be no question of discerning "when needed."

 

 

I don't suppose this is entirely a case of our using the term differently, but just in case that's a factor --

 

In our family's spiritual tradition, obedience is a virtue, but it has to be balanced with all the other virtues.  In other words, teaching obedience to a child is not the same as training an animal (let alone programming a computer!), because it's part of a larger context that includes the development of moral judgment.  But the moral judgment is sort of the coming-together of the whole process of growth in virtue -- which continues throughout life -- so it's going to be quite limited in the great majority of children.  Their parents and teachers have to guide them, which is why it's considered such a terrible betrayal when they don't do this, or even encourage the child in harmful behavior. 

 

So, in this understanding, obedience has a twofold importance for children:  as a lifelong virtue, and as a way of helping them get through this time of greater dependence by "hearkening" (Latin root of the word) to the voice of those who are responsible for guiding their growth.  

 

(NB, I am not a philosopher, and have probably spoken imprecisely; if so, please go easy on me.  :cool: )

[HomeAgain]

For those who "like" this interpretation -- do you not think the trait of obedience is a necessary foundation for living as an adult in a society with the rule of law?

 

Even "the ability to defy authority when needed" seems to me to imply stepping outside the norm of obeying authority.   If someone had been raised without a habit of obedience -- and felt it was only appropriate to follow authority when the law happened to coincide with what they already wanted to do -- then there would be no question of discerning "when needed."

 

No, I don't think it is necessary.  We have 4 questions we ask to govern our actions:

Is it safe?

Is it legal?

Is it moral?

Is it respectful?

 

Obedience for the sake of obedience is not a necessary foundation.  Respect for the world around us, and knowing personal boundaries (like, my rights end where yours begin) help us think through whether or not the law itself is just.  Countless civil rights have been acknowledged because of the ones who know and understand that the arbitrary laws restricting them are not right or moral.

 

I am a car seat tech.  Parents who do not understand the implications are the first to give "freedom" when the bare minimum of legal justification is reached.  They are the ones putting their 3yo's in backless boosters or turning their 12 month old forward facing.  The parents who understand the reasoning, the justification, and the safety behind each guideline are the ones who are doing better, and making the call when they feel it is necessary. Obedience isn't in their minds - keeping their children safe, is.

 

I would NEVER stress obedience for the sake of obedience.  Aside from teaching a person to ignore their gut or how to think, it's just not a good idea to put it as the most important thing.

[T'smom]

Give me a break. Your kids "mind" because that is their personality, NOT because of any magic thing that you did. I have a kid that doesn't mind, one that does and one that is too young to know yet. The one that doesn't does NOT "run the house". I'm sure that your house sees lots more fun than mine does- because you can't do fun things with a kid that doesn't mind. They ruin it for everybody. Some kids are easy. Some are not. Be thankful that you have easy ones.

[maize]

In light of the other replies, I feel the need to defend myself a little bit. I think I may have come off poorly.

 

My children are young. Except for Sagg, who is allowed to disagree respectfully and without sass, at an appropriate time, I need my children to obey. I expect them to do chores, work diligently at schoolwork, not destroy things, not harm each other, perform basic hygiene, not be destructive, speak kindly, keep themselves relatively safe, and limit destruction. With 3 boys in 5 years, I feel more like a lion tamer than a gentle, loving mom.

 

I don't rule with fear and punishment. I try to win their hearts. But once I have explained in graphic detail why we need to brush our teeth, I should not have to jump through hoops to get people to actually brush their teeth.

Running a household of small children is a challenge for sure!

 

I come at this from the perspective of someone who was not a compliant child. And all the authoritativeness, consequences, consistency, and lectures in the world never made me any more compliant. I wasn't defiant either, I just...kind of lived life inside my own head and anything external had limited power to influence me. I had a strong sense of self and a need to be autonomous in my choices.

 

As an adult, I realize that I cannot MAKE another person do anything. When a child is small, I can physically pick them up and move them to another room--but that is me acting, not them. If I get in a power struggle trying to make a child change their behavior, the child holds the trump card because only they can physically control their body. If we are willing to push the limits of our power as adults, we might make a child's life so miserable that they give in. Such a victory would seem to me to undermine the real values I am trying to teach my children.

 

Parenting is tough, and I don't have the answers. I take courage from the fact that I grew up to be a decent, responsible human being in spite of never approaching model child status.

[Arcadia]

do you not think the trait of obedience is a necessary foundation for living as an adult in a society with the rule of law?

I think it is too easy to go from obedience to blind obedience. I used to eat in class in public school quietly. I should have asked for a waiver but it didn't strike me to do it. I had fainted a few times during morning flag raising assembly and no one in school begrudge me eating to prevent dizziness.

 

I can respect the laws/rules of whatever area/region/country I am in without being obedient.

For example the drinking age here is 21 but 18 in my home country. I won't offer an 18 year old guest a drink because I think 18 year olds are matured enough to drink wisely. That would be disrespectful to the parents and to the laws of the land.

 

If I join an organization e.g YMCA and I don't agree with a certain rule, I would ask for a waiver/accommodation. If that is not possible, I could stay and petition for a change of rule or I could leave.

[ElizaG]

No, I don't think it is necessary.  We have 4 questions we ask to govern our actions:

Is it safe?

Is it legal?

Is it moral?

Is it respectful?

If you're asking "is it legal?," then you seem to be implicitly teaching obedience to civil authority.  I don't see how else to read this. 

 

I am a car seat tech.  Parents who do not understand the implications are the first to give "freedom" when the bare minimum of legal justification is reached.  They are the ones putting their 3yo's in backless boosters or turning their 12 month old forward facing.  The parents who understand the reasoning, the justification, and the safety behind each guideline are the ones who are doing better, and making the call when they feel it is necessary. Obedience isn't in their minds - keeping their children safe, is.

It's interesting you'd mention that subject, because at one point, I spent a fair bit of time reading car seat boards, and what I saw was generally a combination of obedience to experts (car seat techs) and conformity to peers.  For instance, there was heavy pressure to go with extended harnessing, and it was Not The Done Thing to use a booster seat for a five year old, even though this recommendation was based on arbitrary principles ("every change is a step down in safety!") rather than on actual evidence.  It seemed to take years before the boards' "authority figures" changed their views on this issue to more closely match reality.   And even now, "harness = safer" is still being taught by many agencies. 

 

So it seems to me that even this sort of "educated decision-making" can often be largely a matter of obedience, of one kind or another. 

[HomeAgain]

Eliza, the answer has to be 'yes' to all four questions.  Legal is 25%.

 

I'm not going to turn this into a car seat crash course, but you're welcome to create that spin off thread if you like. :) 

[73349]

I was raised never to be found disobeying authority, or I was punished fairly harshly. (The rod was not spared, among other things.) So I tended to never be found disobeying--the appearance of compliance was demanded, and the appearance was indeed achieved. I did not learn a habit of obedience or respect, but of deception, and was a late bloomer morally.

 

This motivates me, in raising DS, work more on developing his attitudes and skills than on wielding my authority. I don't need him to brush his teeth because I said so, and I won't punish him for not doing it. I do make it plain that I'll avoid giving him sweets for a day or so if he is choosing not to clean the sugar off his teeth, because he is still growing in self-discipline and might have significant dental consequences without that incentive. He doesn't need to grow up with a habit of obeying me when I say it's time to brush, but with a habit of good self-care and an attitude of respect for his body.

 

That may sound like splitting hairs to some people, but I think that in the long term, "I take care of my health" will serve him a lot better than "I do what I'm told."

 

 

[ElizaG]

Eliza, the answer has to be 'yes' to all four questions.  Legal is 25%.

I don't see how that changes the issue.  And if each of the factors is essential, then it doesn't seem meaningful to talk in terms of weighting them.

 

I'm not going to turn this into a car seat crash course, but you're welcome to create that spin off thread if you like. :)

It's not specifically about car seats; that was just the example you gave.  It might as well have been "what to feed tropical fish."  You see this sort of thing all over the Internet.   People are recognized as experts on some subject, and they start giving advice, and they get a bunch of followers.   It seems a lot more common than people thinking things through for themselves.

 

I'm not opposed to this, per se.   I think it's part of human nature for there to be a web of different relationships of authority, hierarchy, and obedience.   The part I don't understand -- and this is far from the first thread where it's come up -- is that some posters seem to implicitly accept the idea of obedience to civil authority, or to the authority of experts (however defined) in areas such as health and safety, but explicitly reject the idea of children being taught to obey their parents. 

[Storygirl]

I'm going to respond to your original post. I have expectations of obedience in my children, and I consider that my husband and I are authorities in our home. I also have children who are disobedient, sassy, and defiant at times. One of them in particular has to break every family rule to see what will happen. I don't allow them to be this way. I cannot make them behave. I can teach them the behavior that we expect. I can provide consequences when they disobey. I cannot actually make them obey. You might make assumptions about my parenting style by observing their behavior from afar, but you would probably be wrong.

 

 

[SporkUK]

For those who "like" this interpretation -- do you not think the trait of obedience is a necessary foundation for living as an adult in a society with the rule of law?

 

Even "the ability to defy authority when needed" seems to me to imply stepping outside the norm of obeying authority.   If someone had been raised without a habit of obedience -- and felt it was only appropriate to follow authority when the law happened to coincide with what they already wanted to do -- then there would be no question of discerning "when needed."

 

<snip>

 

I don't think it is a dichotomy between a habit of obedience and doing what one already one wants to do - there is quite a lot of grey in the middle. People can build moral codes that do not have obedience to authority as a foundation that involves them not doing anything illegal because of personal views ramifications to others or self on doing so or their moral code lines up. I don't not do drugs because it is illegal to do so but because I do not see the appeal having been raised around people who did them a lot. I also do not drink which is legal for the same reason - the law has no affect on those choice for me. People can choose to obey the law because they do not want the consequences of not obeying the law - to me that isn't obedience but fear and for many self preservation that has nowt to do with the authority of law itself but how it is wielded or how people feel it would be wielded against them. 

 

The idea that obedience is needed to live as an adult in a society with laws to me ignores that without either cooperation or force those laws are meaningless. Those laws only mean something with cooperation and/or force behind it - authority means nothing without those. The acts that we remember, that we praise, that we hold up on high as examples are more often than not the defiance and refusal to obey, not obedience to authority, to show that we can resist the force and cooperate towards something beyond the law. 

 

I do not have a habit of obedience of authority, I have a habit of fear of authority for good reasons -- I've been on the bad end of it being forcefully used repeatedly. I think authority should be questioned, should be called to account, should be there to care for the needs it serves and prove itself, not for obedience by those it is meant to support. If I screw up, I want my kids to tell me, to tell my partner, it may be frustrating at the time but seeing them see that I am imperfect, that we as a family and as a home only work if we cooperate with each other will I think give them more skills for dealing with the adult world than obedience because I'm their parent can. Some balance must be made for safety and home wellbeing, but I have never felt better or closer to them or that I am helping them be adults when I've forced an issue. I've only felt like I forced something, that it was a means to the end that my panicky amygdala wanted a shortcut because with my health problems it like to shut things down fast, but not that those were the best way or that they learned anything really from it. I do not think obedience to authority because it is authority is good or a foundation for society or relationships.  

[mamiof5]

Give me a break. Your kids "mind" because that is their personality, NOT because of any magic thing that you did. I have a kid that doesn't mind, one that does and one that is too young to know yet. The one that doesn't does NOT "run the house". I'm sure that your house sees lots more fun than mine does- because you can't do fun things with a kid that doesn't mind. They ruin it for everybody. Some kids are easy. Some are not. Be thankful that you have easy ones.

Partly agree. Yes, we are very blessed, no doubt about it. However, I think our home environment and interactions with them have also played a role.

[abba12]

Families where the children are totally obedient at all times are usually obedient out of fear. DH and I were both completely obedient, out of fear, as children. 

 

We want our children to learn to be adults. Part of being adults is being wise. It is wise to listen to us (and others with more experience) and trust our guidance and instructions. We want our children to be obedient because it is a wise and helpful thing for them, and they recognize that we have their best interests in mind.

 

We don't always succeed at this, but this is the theory.

 

The thing is, with our theory, sometimes our kids are going to decide 'nope, mum is wrong on this' or sometimes our kids are going to be foolish, not wise, because they're children.

 

Regarding honouring thy mother and father.... When I was a child, my parents were not Christians, but I was, and had the opportunity to attend church. I was told I should stop attending church, and just read my bible alone at home, and leave church until I was an adult, because it was not honouring my mother and father to attend church when they were not Christians. I've never thought much of anyone who calls on that commandment for obedience since.

 

And, if we do read honouring as obeying, where does that end? Why does the meaning of the commandment change when I turn 18? Or, does it not change. Should we have moved into a caravan on my inlaws property when we married, because FIL told us to? Should we have stopped having children because my dad told me to? Of course not, but I don't think the bible changes it's meaning when I reach an age that varies from culture to culture where I am culturally allowed to make my own decisions. So honouring means respecting, and respect sometimes means obedience, but it also sometimes means respectful disagreement. 

 

If you're asking "is it legal?," then you seem to be implicitly teaching obedience to civil authority.  I don't see how else to read this. 

 

I do not teach obedience as a personality trait. I teach seeking out wise instruction, I teach respecting elders, I teach ways to make good judgment. But obedience itself is not a positive trait in my mind. 

 

I was homeschooled back when it was illegal, as did many of the founders of the homeschooling movement, at least in my country, so teaching that the law is always right makes no sense to me. We consider if it is legal, not out of obedience, but to consider whether the risks outweigh the benefits if we chose to go ahead. Sometimes the risks of doing something illegal, like homeschooling 30 years ago, are worth the result.

 

Another example is copyright law. A lot of homeschoolers, whether they realize it or not, break copyright law regularly because the law is so convoluted and ridiculous. Re-using consumable workbooks, even with a plastic sheet or by copying answers into a notebook is illegal because it was only licensed for one use. Copying the tracks off that CD from the library so you'll have them for the unit study next week is illegal, even though you got the library copy for free to begin with. It's changed now but going back a few years many of the documentaries and things on youtube were uploaded illegally, and youtube had to track them down and remove them.

 

Still another example would be raw milk, ok technically only the selling of raw milk is illegal, but buying it is encouraging illegal activity. But would any of us consider a person who buys raw milk for it's health benefits a morally corrupt person?

 

Nope, obedience is definitely not a positive personality trait in my mind. Critical and careful thought is, and it just so happens that such thought often coincides with obedience being the right thing to do in that situation. But not always, certainly not always.

 

 

[Paige]

Fourth commandment, "Honor thy father and thy mother" applies very much so in our household. 

 

 

One of my favorite Christian books had a take on this that I really liked and have always remembered. It said to pay attention to your own verses. It says, "Honor your father and mother," it does not say, "Make your children honor you," kwim? Yet that's how many parents seem to take it and then it creates a situation where they begin to go against the verse that does apply to them, "Do not embitter your children."

 

So, I'm responsible for honoring my own parents. My children are responsible for honoring me. My duties to my children are to not embitter them (although that's really the father's line) and to teach them and guide them. There are verses that say to discipline them, but that does not mean with harshness or even with punishment. I have no judgement about it people wish to use punishment and have myself, but I don't feel it's a command because discipline does not equal punishment. 

 

As far as parents not providing a framework for discipline and limits, I still feel it's hard to judge from outside. Perhaps those parents think they are doing all of that, it's just that their idea of it is vastly different from mine and yours. 

[mamiof5]

In light of the other replies, I feel the need to defend myself a little bit. I think I may have come off poorly.

 

My children are young. Except for Sagg, who is allowed to disagree respectfully and without sass, at an appropriate time, I need my children to obey. I expect them to do chores, work diligently at schoolwork, not destroy things, not harm each other, perform basic hygiene, not be destructive, speak kindly, keep themselves relatively safe, and limit destruction. With 3 boys in 5 years, I feel more like a lion tamer than a gentle, loving mom.

 

I don't rule with fear and punishment. I try to win their hearts. But once I have explained in graphic detail why we need to brush our teeth, I should not have to jump through hoops to get people to actually brush their teeth.

Absolutely yes to this! Probably you said it better I ever could. Your expectations for your kids are sort of similar to what we have had for ours since they were young, and I want to believe it has paid off. Now we are starting again...curious to see how that will go. Some folks look at dh and I like if we had 4 heads, just for trying to enforce some basic parameters. Does it work every day?? No. Are our kids perfect?? No. Are we the perfect parents?? No. Are we authoritarian, mean, strict parents? No. We try to direct our kids lovingly, and yes, teach them to be obedient. It seems like the word "obedience" has bad connotations now a days. Of course, if it is abused it's not good...but nothing wrong with trying to teach our kids some parameters. Are we always going to be successful? Maybe, maybe not. But all we can do is try

[Desert Strawberry]

I think perception is a key element here. I know that my kids receive praise by the cart load everywhere we go for their thoughtfulness, politeness, excellent attitudes, helpfulness, etc etc. 

I honestly don't understand it at all. I think they act like wild animals. I mean, they are barely civilized. They really fall quite short of my expectations. 

I have been told many, many times that I'm way too hard on them. I am trying to lighten up. I do have good relationships with my children, but it's in spite of myself. It takes conscious, converted effort.

If my expectations weren't so ridiculous, I would probably think that my children were super compliant. Because, really, in the grand scheme of things, they are great kids. Not perfect. But really good kids. 

For me the difference between,"My kids are super awesome." And "My kids are horrible. How did I go so wrong?" Is strictly my expectations.

 

[mamiof5]

Everyone has very, very valid points. Some of my likes have been in agreement with the entire post, or just part of it. I do notice though, some interpretation of the word "obedience" as a negative thing. I feel that obedience is a wonderful trait for children to learn. Doesn't mean I want them to be crowd followers or anything like that. But I do feel children need to learn certain traits...many things they can figure out, others is our responsibility to model and enforce while they grow up and make their own decisions. I don't necessarily agree with the idea that all obedience is out of fear. Unfortunately sometimes it can be, and there are reasons behind it, but hopefully it is not the norm?