Math for 8 yr old struggling

[Mtngrace]

My daughter is 8 and has recently been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder.  We are getting occupational therapy for her which is helping some.  This is our first year homeschooling as she did K and 1st grade at a public charter school.  They did singapore math with her at school, but I don't think she listened well and learned much in her math classes.  I bought singapore and started that with her but at the first grade level.  We also got saxon through our homeschool co-op.  We have been doing singapore 1a and she is really struggling witht he number bonds.  She doesn't know her money, time, etc.  She can count to 100 and count by 5's and tens.  She doesn't know her math facts very good and definitely not over 5.  I am just wondering if Saxon would be better for her since its more traditional or maybe another program like math u see?  She is very slow at math and has to sit and count to figure things out.  I know singapore is more advanced and hard to understand sometimes.  She also has some vision issues and wears glasses.  She acts exhausted doing 5-10 minutes of math.  I don't want to get to the point where she hates it.  Any suggestions?

[Ellie]

My daughter is 8 and has recently been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder.  We are getting occupational therapy for her which is helping some.  This is our first year homeschooling as she did K and 1st grade at a public charter school.  They did singapore math with her at school, but I don't think she listened well and learned much in her math classes.  I bought singapore and started that with her but at the first grade level.  We also got saxon through our homeschool co-op.  We have been doing singapore 1a and she is really struggling witht he number bonds.  She doesn't know her money, time, etc.  She can count to 100 and count by 5's and tens.  She doesn't know her math facts very good and definitely not over 5.  I am just wondering if Saxon would be better for her since its more traditional or maybe another program like math u see?  She is very slow at math and has to sit and count to figure things out.  I know singapore is more advanced and hard to understand sometimes.  She also has some vision issues and wears glasses.  She acts exhausted doing 5-10 minutes of math.  I don't want to get to the point where she hates it.  Any suggestions?

 

:grouphug:

 

I wouldn't blame her for not listening well. She has a sensory processing disorder, which I'm sure affected her ability to learn regardless of how well she listened.

 

After two years of Singapore in school, I'd say that's not the best method for her.

 

Saxon has lots of moving parts. I prefer Saxon beginning with Math 54; the primary levels are too busy, IMHO.

 

My vote would be for a very traditional math: Rod and Staff. And I'd start with the first-grade "Beginning Arithmetic," because it builds such a strong foundation. It uses visuals--not manipulatives--and is very, very simple to teach (scripted lessons in the excellent teacher manual) without being time consuming.

[Mtngrace]

I have heard that is good and CLE?  I would think manipulatives would help a sensory kid a lot?  I was thinking a more traditional program would be good like you said.  I am a little nervous about drilling her a lot though.

[Mtngrace]

Also how do you get a child to stop counting to figure out math?  

[kalusignan]

I don't know much of anything about sensory processing disorder, but RightStart really helped my daughter with mental math and not counting. It also includes a lot of games which adds to the fun factor.

 

Before I started with RightStart we did Ellen McHenry's FREE Professor Pig math series. It's all working on mental math (about 1st grade level) with lots of games. Going through that and seeing how well it fit my daughter and her needs is what led me to RightStart. 

 

Here's a link to the Professor Pig series.

 

http://www.ellenjmchenry.com/homeschool-freedownloads/math-games/professorpigmath.php

[Clear Creek]

I would use Math-u-see, and I would put her in Alpha. She won't stop using her fingers to count up or down until she has her facts memorized, and MUS will help with that (along with a general understanding of place value and how numbers are related to each other). The lessons are short enough to keep from being overwhelming, and you can move through the book as quickly or slowly as you need to...you decide when she is ready to move on to the next concept. Mr. Demme (in the math videos) has a way of relating to non-traditional learners that really works.

[purduemeche]

We have had all kinds of luck with timed math tables like you will find in the Saxon methodology.  We just make it a fun competition-against-self game and celebrate like heck if they can shave a second off their best time.

 

We started with MUS but have moved to Saxon.  Saxon is much more comprehensive.  Think of it as a good opportunity to teach your child to take the long view - not fun, but important.

[Mtngrace]

I am confused now.  Some people tell me more traditional and others Math U see.  Thanks for all the comments though.  

[frogger]

I don't know that much about sensory processing disorder or how it affects the various tricks to learning math.

 

I'm guessing if she can skip count she can do patterns well and to get her to stop counting up she will need to get the patterns ingrained (like the skip counting) so they become automatic.

 

I would guess your two best options would be MUS or RightStart in that case. RightStart will use similar number bonds as Singapore(if I understand Singapore correctly as I haven't used that one) but you can pace it according to your child's understanding. Getting one pattern down before moving on. If my child moves slower I would rather they get things down pat and work through summer rather than rush them which just amounts to more confusion. Also because you are practicing through both games, manipulatives, and worksheets it isn't as repetitive. You can continue to do one pattern for a warm-up while continuing on with their regular scheduled lessons too if you don't want to slow them up too much and are willing to not just follow the script in the lesson manual to a T.

 

Traditional methods may be ok if she is good at memorizing random facts but often it is just that, Memorization and that often means forgetting for some kids. Some are good at memorizing and hey whatever works.

 

The nice thing about MUS is that you continue a concept until you get it. The bad thing about MUS is you do the same exact thing until you get it. If your child needs a week to get it down they will probably get bored. If they are bored they may be doing sheets passively and just putting numbers down and not getting anywhere and you have to make sure they are trying to get the trick or fact down while they are doing the worksheet or they may just revert to counting up for every problem and the sheets become busy work. If they focus on the concept everytime though it is a simpler to implement and has less stuff to buy.

 

I do think the visualization of the beads on an abacus is easier to see in your mind that the MUS rods.

[kalusignan]

The nice thing about MUS is that you continue a concept until you get it. The bad thing about MUS is you do the same exact thing until you get it. If your child needs a week to get it down they will probably get bored. If they are bored they may be doing sheets passively and just putting numbers down and not getting anywhere and you have to make sure they are trying to get the trick or fact down while they are doing the worksheet or they may just revert to counting up for every problem and the sheets become busy work. If they focus on the concept everytime though it is a simpler to implement and has less stuff to buy.

 

I do think the visualization of the beads on an abacus is easier to see in your mind that the MUS rods.

 

This was our exact experience with MUS. I will say, it works for some kids, BUT ....

 

My daughter does so much better with a spiral approach like RightStart v. a mastery approach like MUS. We would get stuck on a lesson in MUS and just not be able to move on, which leads to hating math every day. With RightStart I know that the topic will come up again and sometimes kids need time to mull over those things in their brain before they 'get it'.

 

Also, the main way to review and work on topics with MUS is worksheets...and more worksheets. There are tons of games in RightStart, which, if you're struggling with math, is a much gentler approach to learning with fewer tears.

 

The other big thing is that the abacus is just a better manipulative IMO. The blocks work for some kids but just did not click with my daughter.

 

The thing about math is that there are so many good curriculums, but it really comes down to finding something that is not only thorough, but also clicks with your child.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Your daughter may have a very poor number sense.  She may need to solidify her basic subitization skills before or along with moving into a new math curriculum.  Have you had her evaluated by a neuropsychologist?  I am unclear exactly what evals she has had.  You might research dyscalculia.

 

My suggestion before you buy a ton of things is to get the Ronit Bird e-books and run her through the dot patterns book.  See how she does with that.  If her basic subitization skills are weak or non-existent then you may just spin wheels for years and have to start all over again anyway.  Those e-books can help with subitization skills, which will make moving into a math curriculum easier.  Ronit Bird has done a plethora of research on students that struggle with math.  Her approach recognizes that some children never develop a strong number sense on their own and must be explicitly taught, much more explicitly than most math programs incorporate.  I puffy heart love Ronti Bird.

 

http://www.ronitbird.com/

 

After that, I tend to think either something like MUS or CLE or even Right Start (especially working with an Abacus) could be helpful but you may have to give different systems a good try before finding one that actually helps her understand math.  

 

I also recommend reading David Sousa's book How the Brain Learns Mathematics.  It might help you to understand where the disconnects are occurring.

 

Hugs and best wishes.

[sweetpea3829]

I'm going to say MUS Alpha for your kiddo.  The blocks will really help her with visualizing the number bonds.  

 

Here's the thing...you don't HAVE to park on a specific lesson just because your kiddo hasn't mastered it yet.  MUS is set up in such a way that you really can move on while continuing to review past topics.  If I were to wait for my DD9 to master any given math topic, we would still be waaaaaay back at the beginning of Alpha.  Because for her, the bottom line is...she may not master the conceptual idea.  Ever.  Her math disability is such that I really needed to change our focus for her.  She needs to accomplish procedural math, well enough that she can manage in the real world as an adult.  

 

That's not to say that I've given up on her understanding the process conceptually.  Of course, I still push for that as I see her capabilities improve.  

 

So here's what I did for her.  For the Alpha and Beta books, we would watch a lesson together on Monday.  We would watch it again on Tuesday, and on Tuesday, she would have the first worksheet for that lesson.  Second sheet on Wednesday, third on Thursday, fourth on Friday.  

 

At the same time, we have continued to work on number sense with her.  Number orders, comparing numbers, counting forwards and backwards (something that is extremely difficult for her), etc.  

 

So she would finish the first lesson that first week.  The second week, we did not do the next lesson.  We spent the week reviewing those number sense concepts, as well as reviewing the previous weeks' lesson.  

 

She would do a new lesson every other week, so in essence, we took two weeks per lesson for most lessons, schooling year round so she could complete an entire book in a year.  Regardless of whether she mastered the topic or not, we moved on.  She has really made a lot of progress this way.  Procedural progress...meaning she can add, subtract, etc.  Does she understand the whys?  Nope.  But that isn't my goal for her right now.  

 

This year, for Gamma, we are going to try doing one lesson a week and see how that goes.  I've already had her memorizing skip counts from 2-12 which will hopefully transition her more easily into multiplication.  

 

Anyways, I hope that helps.  I am not a huge fan of MUS...I find it too incremental for the average student...and not comprehensive enough.  But for a kiddo that has some learning issues, it has been a good fit for us.  

 

 

 

[Ellie]

I am confused now.  Some people tell me more traditional and others Math U see.  Thanks for all the comments though.  

 

If there were 50 homeschoolers in a room, there would be 300 recommendations on any given subject.

 

In the end, you just have to pick something, even if that means flipping a coin. :-) And really, you need to put your hands on whatever it is you're considering, and read it, every page, for yourself, and touch the manipulatives if there are any, and imagine yourself actually teaching it and your dc learning from it.

[OneStepAtATime]

If there were 50 homeschoolers in a room, there would be 300 recommendations on any given subject.

 

In the end, you just have to pick something, even if that means flipping a coin. :-) And really, you need to put your hands on whatever it is you're considering, and read it, every page, for yourself, and touch the manipulatives if there are any, and imagine yourself actually teaching it and your dc learning from it.

Wise words...

[frogger]

Definitely, you will get variety of answers. I usually wade through answers looking for similarities and differences in how they discuss math and what's important to the poster.

 

I have two children who can teach themselves math no matter what curriculum I give them and sometimes without a curriculum. I have two that struggle with math and honestly no curriculum will do. The curriculum just is a tool I as the teacher use to teach them. The child has to give feed back and I see what they need more of, when they can move on, and if we need a new approach for this one topic even if I continue to use the curriculum for subsequent topics. So you should use what you are comfortable with and can manipulate to your child's needs. I wish it were simpler but that is just what I have found for struggling children.

[Susie in MS]

My daughter is 8 and has recently been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder.  We are getting occupational therapy for her which is helping some.  This is our first year homeschooling as she did K and 1st grade at a public charter school.  They did singapore math with her at school, but I don't think she listened well and learned much in her math classes.  I bought singapore and started that with her but at the first grade level.  We also got saxon through our homeschool co-op.  We have been doing singapore 1a and she is really struggling witht he number bonds.  She doesn't know her money, time, etc.  She can count to 100 and count by 5's and tens.  She doesn't know her math facts very good and definitely not over 5.  I am just wondering if Saxon would be better for her since its more traditional or maybe another program like math u see?  She is very slow at math and has to sit and count to figure things out.  I know singapore is more advanced and hard to understand sometimes.  She also has some vision issues and wears glasses.  She acts exhausted doing 5-10 minutes of math.  I don't want to get to the point where she hates it.  Any suggestions?

 

It could be that a very hands on program will work best for her. I do believe the above mentioned Right Start and MUS are both this way in different sorts of ways. (Did that make sense?) 

 

I adore Rod and Staff grades 1 and 2 and we did do them mostly (cutting out about 50% or more of the work), but it was not what was best for my dd. I found that out later. Numbers are not her thing and a page full of them makes her shut down. What worked best for her is Math Lessons for a Living Education.

http://jellybeanjar.org/product-category/math/

 

We did part of book 1 but had to quit due to me working outside of the home and not having the time to do the hands on with her at that young age. If I had it to do again, I would have stuck with it and just took it slower if need be. 

 

 

Here is why I think this MAY be an option for you: there is a storyline that most kids are interested in. Then the math is worked into the story. Some lessons have real life- hands on lessons such as measuring items in the home, finding items that fit certain shapes, cooking, weighing, etc. For money and clocks we used play money and play clocks that I kept in a math box. And another thing that was an added plus for my dd was there was only a few problems on the page and per lesson. She was not overwhelmed so therefore didn't shut down. For her quality over quantity is best. 

 

I love the way it teaches place value with the village.

 

They make their own flashcards with pictures. For many kids this reaches a part of their brain simple numbers do not. It can assist some with memorizing facts. This project can take quite a while though. 

 

The use of dry erase markers on MLFLE printables you either laminate or place in page protectors is fun and breaks the monotony. 

 

I am happy to say dd did well with MLFLE book 4 and is now working on book 5.

 

Professor Pig. We LOVE PP! I would use this for sure. It is free. Fun, hands on and effective.

[OneStepAtATime]

Also how do you get a child to stop counting to figure out math?  

She is using her fingers as manipulatives.  She probably still NEEDS manipulatives to visualize the numbers.  Maybe she has low working memory or weak retrieval skills so she cannot pull up and hold the numbers in her head yet.  To be honest, I have always struggled with this, too.  I have to write numbers down.  I need manipulatives to be able to hold onto the concepts as well as processing the computation.  I used my fingers for years because no one taught me a more effective way to visualize manipulatives/numbers in my head.

 

Many Asian maths use manipulatives extensively in the early grades.  They do not emphasize rote memorization.  They emphasize the structure of the numbers and how to pull apart and put them back together again. Eventually, because of all the exposure to and use of manipulatives, the students can "virtually" manipulate the numbers without actually needing physical manipulatives anymore.

 

Your daughter seems to be struggling to visualize and internalize what is happening with the numbers.  Taking away her fingers without giving her something else to help her do that may just make it harder for her to grasp math.  Not all kids need manipulatives.  In fact, for some it is a huge waste of time.  For others, it is the life line that finally helps them "see" math.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   I know this is frustrating.  Keep seeking.  Keep asking questions.  Keep trying things until you find what your child needs.  You will find a positive path for both of you because you care enough to find answers.  Best wishes.

[KSinNS]

You probably don't really need another suggestion, but in a similar situation, I ended up using Grube's Method for Teaching Arithmetic (free off the web). It lays out how to teach numeracy in a structured, manipulative heavy way with emphasis on memorizing facts. It's old, so the examples are weird, but it's very, very solid. It really worked for my daughter, and now she gets addition, subtraction, multiplication and division and is mostly fluent with her addition/subtraction facts. And she can do math without taking off her socks :-}. We did to 20, then moved back to MUS (using sheets from math mammoth for review since we had done all of alpha/beta already.) I actually also looked at Ronit Bird, but she'd already mastered most of her material by the time I'd found it. If I had to do it again, though, with a really struggling 8 year old, I would probably start with Ronit Bird which is much more user friendly and less boring than Grube. Get the ebooks if you have an iPad. I bought the book and CD, but found it a bit tricky to figure out.

 

I like how MUS teaches place value, regrouping, and lays out multi digit multiplication and long division. I did not find alpha to be a helpful book for us (lots of tricks that just confused her). With my fourth child (who seems to grasp numbers more intuitively than T), I'm planning to start with Grube, and do Grube to 20 over a year or two, and then start in at Beta. 

[wapiti]

I would suggest reading the math-related threads on the Learning Challenges board for ideas.  Try the advanced search button (the little circle on the right of the search bar up top) to search on a particular forum.  There have been several discussions about Ronit Bird, for example.  And feel free to ask questions there.

 

I would be inclined to lean away from activities that teach through your child's particular weaknesses and toward ones that would teach through her strengths, to the extent you are able to discern them.

 

If you haven't already done so, I would rule out developmental vision issues with a COVD optometrist.  Such issues are a subset of sensory processing issues.  Also note that visual memory can play a role with math, and math facts especially, and it's possible for development of visual memory to have been hampered by other difficulties seeing correctly even if such difficulties have since been corrected.

 

ETA, a few threads:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/533786-can-we-talk-mathdyscalculia/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/509874-just-in-case-anyone-cares-ronit-bird/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/546611-math-recommendations/

 

[Ellie]

I am not convinced that children use their fingers because they need manipulatives and fingers are, well, handy. :-) I don't believe the basic concepts of adding and subtracting are difficult for children to understand, and that's where learning addition and subtraction facts is important. Manipulatives become more useful for things like fractions, and multiplication and whatnot, but again, learning basic math facts is still important.

[OneStepAtATime]

You may be right, generally speaking. My son used the c-rods for a very brief period of time, before he naturally memorized the answers and got bored with the rods. He never used his fingers. (This is my non-dyscalculic kid.)

 

This thread seems to be about a child who is struggling with math, however. In cases where math is hard for a particular child (such as with dyscalculia), the basic concepts of adding and subtracting can be very difficult to understand indeed. In those cases, more help is needed. Some kids who struggle with math also have learning differences that make memorizing math facts harder. Some kids who struggle with math shouldn't be simply memorizing addition and subtraction facts, because memorizing something you don't understand is pointless — these kids benefit from spending time with manipulatives so they have a clearer idea what actually happens during subtraction and addition.

I agree.

[PeterPan]

You mentioned she has SPD, but that is an OT diagnosis.  Has she had a psych eval to look for learning disabilities, ADHD/ASD, etc.?  The psych should have recommends on how to use that information to teach her better.  It sounds like she might have SLD math, which means you want to use multi-sensory.  Here's a breakdown that might help you.  http://learningabledkids.com/mathematics/mathematics.htm

 

 

[Bjess8411]

We have had all kinds of luck with timed math tables like you will find in the Saxon methodology.  We just make it a fun competition-against-self game and celebrate like heck if they can shave a second off their best time.

 

We started with MUS but have moved to Saxon.  Saxon is much more comprehensive.  Think of it as a good opportunity to teach your child to take the long view - not fun, but important.

 

Hi, I would use math u see. I do not have sensory processing disorder and am not delayed in math and I hated Saxon math with a passion when I was homeschooled. I don't think any of my sisters liked it. It was so boring and you basically have to either be instructed by a parent or teach yourself. Math U See has visual instruction ( something I really enjoyed), manipulatives ( great) and a fun workbook. For a special needs child I would go with MUS, should be a much better fit.

[Rosie_0801]

For now, I'd begin with CSMP, the grade 1 level. It's free online so you can start right now. :)  http://stern.buffalostate.edu/CSMPProgram/Primary%20Disk/Start.htmlThe lessons are short and sweet, but they certainly add up into something worthwhile.

 

For number bonds, try playing Fish, but making tens instead of pairs.