When your multilingual desire clashes with your homeschooling desire

[4KookieKids]

So our bilingualism has always been one aspect of why we want to homeschool, but not the only one. I really like the "more time to play" during early years, but am especially a fan of homeschooling because you can tailor your kids' education. My oldest struggled with learning to read but is a math whiz, and that's not even remotely a problem when teaching him at home. I didn't have to hold him back in math to match his reading, nor did I have to rush his reading before he was reading. It was a beautiful thing.

So now my family and I are considering some opportunities that might have us moving. We're in the very early stages at this point, but it's got me thinking about what the future of our homeschool would be if we did move. In particular, we wouldn't be moving to another country that speaks our majority language, so the two situations that we'd be in if we were to move would be (a) to move to the country of our minority language, or (b) to move to a country whose language we don't know at all.

It seems that, in either case, the best way for my children to learn and assimilate the culture and language is to attend the public schools. So my goal of raising bilingual (or even trilingual, in the case of (b)) children is best achieved by sending them to public school, but then I have to give up on my goal of homeschooling for all those other reasons that I want to homeschool.

It's possible that our homeschooling decision would be out of our hands, based on other factors (in that I might have to or may not be able to), so it's possible that these considerations are moot points. But I'd love to get input from you all on the issue! Thanks!

ETA In the first situation, at l least am confident that the German schools are good, even if they won't offer the individualism that I love with homeschooling. In the second case, I don't even have any idea what schools in Russia or Bosnia are like and would gladly hear from anyone with experience with them.

[Penguin]

There are vast differences between (a) and (b).

 

How old are your kids? How long would you plan to stay abroad?

[4KookieKids]

My kids are 6,4,2, and 4 months. We would be planning to stay long-term (minimum would be 5+ years, more than likely considerably longer).

[4KookieKids]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany. I think the only exceptions are for foreign military personnel stationed there, but others here know more about that. Homeschooling is also illegal in Bosnia, but the authorities are unlikely to touch you if you're foreigners. I'm in that general area. You can PM me if you want to know more. I don't know what the legal situation is like in Russia.

Yes, I know we'd have to look into things. I know there are a number of countries in which homeschooling is illegal, but there are exceptions for foreigners, depending on their status. It's not clear to me yet what all the exceptions for foreigners are. :)

 

ETA: Though I see now that Germany and Bosnia don't allow foreigners any exemptions either, so you're right that this'd be a moot point there. So maybe just assume we're talking about Russia where it's actually legal. :)

[Loesje22000]

The 'East Cantons' of Belgium are German speaking, homeschooling is legal here, but has required exams.

(I can link more information if necessary)

A friend of mine will move to Austria next week, and she will continue her homeschooling in that country.

So German speaking can homeschool in Europe, just not in Germany.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

We are in a French speaking country.  I have many friends who are British, who live here long-term for work reasons, and whose children are homeschooled.  All of these kids have acquired French through tutoring, participation in clubs, sports, and playing with neighbour kids.  It is possible.  I'm not saying they have native accents, but they will all be fine, language wise, if they choose to go to university here.  

[4KookieKids]

I should clarify - we're not "choosing" where to go necessarily. We're being considered for a couple of jobs that have very set locations, so it's not really an option to move to a German speaking area of Europe that's not Germany. :) I'm also not interested in tempting fate by going against the legal situation in any given country.

 

I'm more just glad to know that - were we to move to a place where homeschooling is allowed, and were we to decide to continue down that road - I wouldn't be depriving my kids of the opportunity to learn the local language as well.

 

Now a hypothetical question (since it's doubtful we actually will be able to determine the outcome): would you prefer to move to a minority language country and strengthen your kids' bilingualism in that way, or would you prefer to move to a 3rd language country (where you'd be learning the local language as well) and hope to raise trilingual kids? FWIW, I still struggle to keep my kids in "German mode" at home with me, but my 6 yo can converse completely in German with a German-native babysitter for entire 3-hour playdates (and my younger kiddos are developing in German slightly faster than he was at their age). So I'm not really worried about their German fluency at this point, even if it's always an uphill battle, but it is clearly weaker than their English. My biggest concern would be that I wouldn't have it in me to maintain the German if we moved to a 3rd language country.

[regentrude]

Now a hypothetical question (since it's doubtful we actually will be able to determine the outcome): would you prefer to move to a minority language country and strengthen your kids' bilingualism in that way, or would you prefer to move to a 3rd language country (where you'd be learning the local language as well) and hope to raise trilingual kids? FWIW, I still struggle to keep my kids in "German mode" at home with me, but my 6 yo can converse completely in German with a German-native babysitter for entire 3-hour playdates (and my younger kiddos are developing in German slightly faster than he was at their age). So I'm not really worried about their German fluency at this point, even if it's always an uphill battle, but it is clearly weaker than their English. My biggest concern would be that I wouldn't have it in me to maintain the German if we moved to a 3rd language country.

 

It will be very difficult to achieve trilinguality in a 3rd language country. I know that some families manage.

I have friends, she is German and he is Italian who moved to the US and managed to raise their kids trilingually, but that was only possible through many immersion stays in the countries where the two native languages were spoken, plus both parents speak all three languages well.

 

We are struggling with bilinguality, even though both parents speak the same language in the home. It's an uphill battle, especially as soon as outside influences begin to dominate (your kids are still young, but it will come)

[4KookieKids]

It will be very difficult to achieve trilinguality in a 3rd language country. I know that some families manage.

I have friends, she is German and he is Italian who moved to the US and managed to raise their kids trilingually, but that was only possible through many immersion stays in the countries where the two native languages were spoken, plus both parents speak all three languages well.

 

We are struggling with bilinguality, even though both parents speak the same language in the home. It's an uphill battle, especially as soon as outside influences begin to dominate (your kids are still young, but it will come)

 

This is more or less what I wondered about. If we were to move to a third language country, I wonder which language(s) we'd be most likely to keep/acquire and which language(s) we'd be most likely to lose. Is it most likely to be the parent's native languages (since they'd already speak English well at the time of the move and will be visiting frequently) and the cultural language? Or is even that too optimistic?

 

I know that things will only get harder as the kids get older with respect to minority languages. That's why I come here to gain wisdom from all you folks who've walked this road before us! Thanks so much for all the input!!  :)

[regentrude]

This is more or less what I wondered about. If we were to move to a third language country, I wonder which language(s) we'd be most likely to keep/acquire and which language(s) we'd be most likely to lose. Is it most likely to be the parent's native languages (since they'd already speak English well at the time of the move and will be visiting frequently) and the cultural language? Or is even that too optimistic?

 

You'd acquire that country's language (unless you take active steps to isolate yourself from that culture, which would pretty much negate the entire point of living abroad), and retain the parents' native language (if I recall correctly, your native languages are both English, and your DH speaks only English with you? )

I'd predict that German would be most likely a casualty. Kids will remember some, but lose fluency.

I was fluent in Russian after 10 years of intensive instruction in a school with Russian language focus - conversations, newspapers, original literature. Have not used it for many years and basically lost it completely.

[Guest elina]

I don't think that you'd have to give up homeschooling, your kids are very young and will absorb the language eventually. There are other ways to immerse them in the country's language, besides school. Homeschooling is legal in Russia and gaining popularity at present. Formal schooling starts at age 7.  

 

My kids (6 and 8 y.o. at the time) learned their new majority language (English) in a matter of months - well enough to communicate with other kids, participate in various activities with their peers and use English language curricula. All without attending school and while continuing to speak only minority language at home.

 

It will be very difficult to maintain the third language though, unless you have continuous regular input in that language.

[4KookieKids]

You'd acquire that country's language (unless you take active steps to isolate yourself from that culture, which would pretty much negate the entire point of living abroad), and retain the parents' native language (if I recall correctly, your native languages are both English, and your DH speaks only English with you? )

 

Yes, we both speak English natively and DH is monolingual. I only live in Germany from age 2 to 14, and was very bilingual while I was there (even stronger in German until 5th grade, when they switched me out of German schools), but lost it  upon returning to the US. It took a lot of work for me to again get to the point of being able to have full conversations with folks in German.

 

 

I'd predict that German would be most likely a casualty. Kids will remember some, but lose fluency.

 

 

Is it bad that I'm not sure I'd care very much? I mean, sure, I'd absolutely feel like I wasted a TON of effort and work teaching them German these last five years, but my main goal is to get them bilingual -- not to get them bilingual in any particular language (i.e., German). I do German because it's what I'm most able to do, but we don't have family over there or anything for which they really need German at this point. If they ended up bilingual in Russian and English, I think I'd be just as happy (even if I have to get over feeling like I put out a ton of work for nothing). :)

 

ETA: I hope that didn't come across the wrong way. It's just that, as someone who hadn't used German for 15 years before having kids, I have to work my tail off if I want to teach them German well, and it might not actually be so terrible to get them bilingual without having to work myself quite so hard.

[bibiche]

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do three languages - lots of people do - but I think that is a separate issue from the schooling question.

 

I myself would probably put my child in school at least for a little while if we were to move to a country where we didn't speak the language, just because I think being multilingual is absolutely cool and he would learn a lot faster and probably have more opportunities to meet people in school.

 

That said, if it is too much and you don't mind dropping German, I'm sure that will turn out absolutely fine too. :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I would prioritise bilingualism over trilingualism.  I think having two "mother tongues" is very do-able, but having three is not.  And if that third language will always be a foreign language (even a well-mastered one) then I would instead put the emphasis on ensuring two fluent "mother tongues" rather than one mother tongue plus two foreign languages.  If that makes any sense...

 

All the trilinguals I know have one language that is noticeably weaker.  Either two mother tongues plus a foreign, or one mother tongue, one academic, one only spoken, etc, etc.  Not saying it can't be done, but you would end up only being able to do oral fluency for at least one of the languages due to a simple lack of time to do written grammar, writing, etc..  

[Joan in GE]

There are supposed to be LOTS of home educators in Russia at least according to a contact there who told me 30,000 several years ago. I haven't read that statistic anywhere else so can't be sure. But it's legal according to HSLDA's website. With that many - of course it would depend on whether you are living in an area where there are lots - you could have lots of Russian contacts and exposure. The tricky part would be whether they would be wanting to practice English with your children.

 

I agree with Monica about focusing on two languages - at least until the children can choose themselves if they want to invest in a 3rd.....We only have so many hours in a day and some of your children might prefer science or math or arts rather than languages.

 

 

[Joan in GE]

Good point Dialectica. 

[Joan in GE]

 

We are struggling with bilinguality, even though both parents speak the same language in the home. It's an uphill battle, especially as soon as outside influences begin to dominate (your kids are still young, but it will come)

 

This is very typically the experience. After the children start attending school, that becomes the language among the children themselves.

 

There are the rare exceptions - our family is one.

 

The two that attended public school were never in the same school at the same time as they only started in 3rd grade. This meant that they never met on the playground among French speakers, so they were never in settings where it would have been more appropriate to speak the local language together. And they both still have accents even though they've been in local schools for years and years - so another exception. Something that might interest you is that the two homeschooled ones have 'less' of an accent (but still have accents). But they were born here so have had years to integrate.

 

In addition, my spouse is still not speaking the local language - so there is a very strong English tendency at home. I know other families where a parent didn't know the local language, but because the children were together in school, the local language became the children's language. 

 

Most families end up having the children answer the parent in the local language - unless the parents are so completely resistant that they never learn the local language. But you probably don't want to do that as it would cause other problems of integration and daily life issues in the community.

[quelle.que.soit]

I only skimmed this, but I find it fascinating that anyone thinks multilingualism is difficult.
There are MANY, MANY cultures where children grow up speaking four and five languages.  Sometimes children speak a different language with every grandparent.  I talked to many of these people daily on polyglot groups, and they are not rare at all.
Multilingualism is as difficult as you make it out to be.
In my opinion, it is easiest if they have a basis in several languages before age 7 or so.
My six year old already knows extensive Latin, is fully bilingual in English and French, is almost conversational in Spanish (because we are looking at started to spend at least half the year each year in South America), and just because we all have a love of languages, likes to tinker in Russian and Chinese.
AND none of us speak the local language, which is (almost too horrendous to be able to call it) a dialect of French.
And I am a single Mom, so there is none of this one parent one language nonsense.  It is all about putting enough time in on each language and making it fun for everybody.
 

[OlgaLA]

Homeschooling of sorts is legal in Russia, although not to the level of the US. There are three forms, actually. One is available for children with medical problems, and is pretty much school that comes to your home. Actual school teachers visit you after school hours. Not something you want. Two others are somewhat similar, and honestly, after skimming a couple of sites, I am not 100% clear on the differences. I think, one includes regular visits to school for art, labs, etc. The child is still "attached" to the class. The other allows you a little more freedom, but you still have to test at your school twice a year, and test reasonably well. There might be more nuances that I haven't caught.

 

On the subject of bi-,  tri-, multilingualism. While there are many cultures where people routinely speak several languages, very few have true bilingualism (let alone tri- plus). Usually one language is taught fully, and the rest are limited to speech. My children speak Russian fluently, but I do not consider them bilingual, as I honestly don't believe that they would be able to do well in a Russian school, even a few grades below their age, simply because their Russian reading, writing, and comprehension of anything beyond elementary school level is not there.

[SarahW]

I only skimmed this, but I find it fascinating that anyone thinks multilingualism is difficult.

There are MANY, MANY cultures where children grow up speaking four and five languages.  Sometimes children speak a different language with every grandparent.  I talked to many of these people daily on polyglot groups, and they are not rare at all.

Multilingualism is as difficult as you make it out to be.

In my opinion, it is easiest if they have a basis in several languages before age 7 or so.

My six year old already knows extensive Latin, is fully bilingual in English and French, is almost conversational in Spanish (because we are looking at started to spend at least half the year each year in South America), and just because we all have a love of languages, likes to tinker in Russian and Chinese.

AND none of us speak the local language, which is (almost too horrendous to be able to call it) a dialect of French.

And I am a single Mom, so there is none of this one parent one language nonsense.  It is all about putting enough time in on each language and making it fun for everybody.

 

 

 

I agree with you. Multilingualism is quite common, and children are good at it. But it is a commitment, and it does take time.

 

It really depends on what your goals are. Conversational? Reading? Academic? I think reading knowledge of foreign languages is vastly underrated, it is relatively easy to learn and easy to keep up. Conversational knowledge is good and useful, though harder to keep active if you're out of the language's setting. Becoming fluent to the level needed for college reading, writing, and speaking is much more difficult. And that's the pickle I'm in, I want my kids to be able to easily read Shakespeare and translate Virgil, and go to Dutch uni if they want. Those are three major time sinks, and will take years of work (and fun, of course). But the goals have to be kept in mind, or else we'll flit everywhere and probably get nowhere.

 

 

 

 

OP, I think conversational English will take care of itself wherever you are. Especially if you're in a country where localization takes a few months, a few months equals multiple kid years, and the kids just teach themselves enough English to get the latest Angry Birds or whatever. My kid has a lot of English-teaching conversations with his Dutch classmates on the subject of minecraft mods. You'll just need to develop literary English and essay writing skills.

 

As for going to school, it depends. Will the school offer language instruction to your children? Will your family tend to create an ex-pat bubble? I've met Americans who lived in foreign country for a decade or more, and never learned much more than how to read the road signs. Are you committed to creating an immersion environment for your children on your own?

 

And what school choices will you have? Some countries have "school choice" where you register your child with any official school, and in NL many religious schools are valid choices. Once you know where you are going, you can weigh the local options.