WA State Supreme Court: Charter Schools Unconstitutional

[mellifera33]

I just saw the news on FB--the WA state Supreme Court has ruled that the state charter schools are unconstitutional. I'm not surprised, since they rely on public funding despite not meeting the legal requirements as "common schools," but I feel sad for my neighbors who are sending their kids to charters after having a so-so experience with the local public school. If the ruling stands, and the new charters can't find funding, they'll have to close. 

[Tsuga]

I think we should have choice schools but I think that charter schools do not meet the requirements of common schools so I am thrilled. Public funds should never, ever, ever, ever exclude children on the basis of disability or any other reason.

 

"In the ruling, Chief Justice Barbara Madsen wrote that charter schools aren’t “common schools†because they’re governed by appointed rather than elected boards."

 

Absolutely true and appalling that public funds should go to that.

 

I am not opposed to private or lottery schools--private, which is privately funded, and lottery, in which anyone can attend.

 

I wish they would stop strangling public schools with insane reporting requirements and lawsuits and let them innovate, and allow more choice, and so on, rather than just privatize in which the interest is the shareholder and not the general public.

 

That said I do think that they must let the children attend for the entire year while all the appeals are held, and that the schools should be allowed to appeal for publicly-appointed boards to meet the requirements, rather than closing completely. Of course they don't want to, because the public wants public good and not shareholder profit, so they won't accept that.

 

But it should be an option.

[LucyStoner]

Classes haven't started at most of these schools. Isn't fall 2015 the opening date for most of the approved programs?

 

I am in favor of community driven non-profit schools. I am not comfortable handing taxpayer school money to for profit or out of state endeavors.

 

I don't know enough to comment on the particulars of this ruling.

 

At least one of these schools was, until they relaunched as a charter, a free private school operating on donor dollars. It's a school with a narrow target population (homeless students). Regretfully, the school has had long standing issues with leadership and I am not really sure how they got approved as a charter.

[Ellie]

Interesting.

 

California has a boatload of charter schools, both campus-based schools and home-based schools. I wonder if there will be any challenges there.

[Amira]

I think there is a lot of potential for charter schools to give students more schooling choices, but in too many places in the US, they're not really fulfilling one of the basic requirements of public education which is to offer those additional choices to every child. I definitely don't want to see charter schools go away, but I want to see them change so that they truly are available to every child and I hope court rulings like these help make that happen.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am lean mostly very liberal and I think this is a sad ruling. I am firm proponent of school choice since not every kid fits in a cookie cutter mold. Where I come from almost half of the kids are in public charter schools which are open to everyone. That being said, however, they are schools of choice and being such may not be a good fit for every kid. For example, some charters offers programs for kids at high risk of dropping out or who have already dropped out. Others offer immersion into various foreign languages or focus on science. Then there are the charters who focus on special need kids and those who offer a rigorous college prep course. This is just the tip of the iceberg and there are many more different offerings.

 

Now legally each of these schools are supposed to meet the needs of every kid but as you can see some schools will be a better fit for your kid than others. I see nothing wrong with this since every kid is unique and has different needs that often regular public schools cannot meet. It is a fact that regular public schools here in some cases pay to send some students to private schools since they cannot meet their needs. In fact, regular public schools were unable to meet my kids needs so we chose homeschool and then a charter. I truly think it is impractical that every single school has to meet every kids' needs and it is also the reality around here even though the law stipulates otherwise. Around here charter schools offer a great way to meet kids needs.

 

As for charter school boards being appointed and not elected, I have no problem with that since there is still a charter school board that oversees all charters which has members appointed by the mayor who is elected. Plus, people vote with their feet if they do not like a charter and that charter will be out of business if enough parents pull their kids out. Whereas if there are only local public schools, people cannot vote with their feet unless they can homeschool or pay for private school which many folks cannot afford.

 

As for for profit entities running charters, I technically have no problem with this as long as they are meeting kids needs. However, I do think there should be safeguards in place like transparency and also stipulating that at least 85% to 95% of the monies be spent on the children and the facilities similar to what the Affordable Health care act stipulates for insurance companies. This is the only improvement that I can see for where I live. FTR, all charters here are legally non-profit but some use for profit management companies to run their school. I would like to see what I mentioned previously implemented here  but in the mean time my kid attends one of those non-profit charters run by a for profit company and we are pretty much happy. I can also attest that none of the regular public schools here would offer what this school has offered my kid.

[DawnM]

Oh wow.  That is hard.  

 

My son now attends a charter so I definitely am not anti-charter.  He is much better suited for a school of 500 than a school of 2500.

 

 

[DawnM]

I am going to have to come back to this since I am heading out the door soon, but what do you mean by this? 

 

Maybe it is different in our state, but anyone is allowed to attend charter schools and there is a lottery held if the school has more applications than spots open.

 

Is this something different than what you are talking about?

 

 

I think we should have choice schools but I think that charter schools do not meet the requirements of common schools so I am thrilled. Public funds should never, ever, ever, ever exclude children on the basis of disability or any other reason.

 

"In the ruling, Chief Justice Barbara Madsen wrote that charter schools aren’t “common schools†because they’re governed by appointed rather than elected boards."

 

Absolutely true and appalling that public funds should go to that.

 

I am not opposed to private or lottery schools--private, which is privately funded, and lottery, in which anyone can attend.

 

I wish they would stop strangling public schools with insane reporting requirements and lawsuits and let them innovate, and allow more choice, and so on, rather than just privatize in which the interest is the shareholder and not the general public.

 

That said I do think that they must let the children attend for the entire year while all the appeals are held, and that the schools should be allowed to appeal for publicly-appointed boards to meet the requirements, rather than closing completely. Of course they don't want to, because the public wants public good and not shareholder profit, so they won't accept that.

 

But it should be an option.

 

[maize]

So this is a matter of how the school board is formed?

 

Interesting. I am not in Washington, but am on the board for a charter school attached to a university. I was appointed to the board, not elected. I am not paid to be on the board, I have no financial interest of any kind in the school.

[maize]

Our state also holds lotteries if there are more students than the school has slots for. Charter schools also provide accommodations for children with IEP's, though they may not have all the resources a larger school might have.

[TechWife]

Interesting. Our county school system is built on school choice. Closing charters would be a huge mess here. It would dump thousands of kids into the county public school system. We are already overcrowded. The brand new elementary school across from my neighborhood opened last week at capacity with a wait list. Families who move into the area during the school year are going to have to go to the next closest elementary school that has space available. I have no idea where that would be, as all of the schools I've heard about are full. They will have to put up more "portable classrooms." 

 

Charter schools here are state funded and have their own boards. The board is formed long before the charter is granted, so I don't see how they could turn that into an elected position. In truth, there are many leadership roles in school systems that are appointed, and many of them decide how to spend state funds. I don't see how they are using that rationale, honestly. 

[mommaduck]

Many cyber schools are charter. They accept anyone. I would hate to see them disappear.

[poppy]

We don't have charter schools where I live. It sounds like they get public funds and also get to self-select which students attend? Do they have to take kids with IEPs? 

[LucyStoner]

Many cyber schools are charter. They accept anyone. I would hate to see them disappear.

The cyber schools here are public schools. I think some are operated by school districts or something. I am not sure about WAVA (Washington State Virtual Academy) which I think is K-12.

 

I don't think this ruling has any risk of endangering other state's charter systems. WA state has different constitutional protections in place for school funding. Also charters are old hat in many places. Here they are brand spanking new. The law passed in Nov 2012 and the first one opened last year with most slated to open this year and next. In short the battle is fresh here.

 

I had to homeschool my son because of a sucky school experience at one of the best public schools here so I definitely think that we need more options and less crap for schools and kids. I voted for the law on the idea that some innovative programs might open up.

 

The trouble with the first one that opened up is really not helping public opinion. But again, that was a school that long had some problems so I really don't see how or why it was approved as a charter. BAD test case.

[LucyStoner]

We don't have charter schools where I live. It sounds like they get public funds and also get to self-select which students attend? Do they have to take kids with IEPs?

Yes, they have to serve students with IEPs and offer the services they are federally entitled too.

Part of the trouble with the first charter that opened up here though was that they enrolled 20 odd student in need of SpEd services and they couldn't keep that staff position filled. The kids were going without services and they got reported, as they should.

[Carol in Cal.]

In CA charter schools are required to accept students with disabilities, just like other public schools are.  In fact, the need to document in advance a plan for addressing such needs is often thrown at charter applicants by school districts that are rightfully afraid that their funding base kids will leave their poorer schools, to stall or prevent the charter from being approved. 

[Butter]

I think we should have choice schools but I think that charter schools do not meet the requirements of common schools so I am thrilled. Public funds should never, ever, ever, ever exclude children on the basis of disability or any other reason.

 

<snip>

 

I am not opposed to private or lottery schools--private, which is privately funded, and lottery, in which anyone can attend.

 

So are the schools in Washington not like the ones I'm familiar with in UT and TX?  Because those cannot exclude children for any reason and they are open attendance (with blind lotteries if more people want to attend than there are slots - the only thing that bumps you up is if there is a sibling already enrolled).  My best friend works at a charter in UT in the special ed department.  They have a profoundly autistic kid attending and, honestly, they don't have the proper resources to teach him, but his parents are happy with the 1 on 1 he is getting at the charter and they cannot deny him attendance on the basis of anything other than lack of space *before* he enrolled (his lottery number came up, so he got in last year).  Here in TX the lotteries are done the same way.  Many kids self-select at some of the harder charters and return to local schools, but they are not denied attendance for any reason.

 

If the charters can deny students for disability reasons, then I can see why Washington's Supreme Court rules them unconstitutional.

[LucyStoner]

So are the schools in Washington not like the ones I'm familiar with in UT and TX? Because those cannot exclude children for any reason and they are open attendance (with blind lotteries if more people want to attend than there are slots - the only thing that bumps you up is if there is a sibling already enrolled). My best friend works at a charter in UT in the special ed department. They have a profoundly autistic kid attending and, honestly, they don't have the proper resources to teach him, but his parents are happy with the 1 on 1 he is getting at the charter and they cannot deny him attendance on the basis of anything other than lack of space *before* he enrolled (his lottery number came up, so he got in last year). Here in TX the lotteries are done the same way. Many kids self-select at some of the harder charters and return to local schools, but they are not denied attendance for any reason.

 

If the charters can deny students for disability reasons, then I can see why Washington's Supreme Court rules them unconstitutional.

The charters in WA state can not exclude kids with disabilities in so far as I know. I don't think voters would have been down with that at all, I sure wouldn't.

 

We do have some public magnet/choice programs with require certain test scores and even applications. Some kids might not qualify for those schools but they are not charters and they have been operating for awhile. They do have SpEd services at most of those schools.

[rebcoola]

Didn't know any Charter's were actually open here yet, I am wondering how our school and others as ALE's (alternative learning enviroments) are legally different than Charters.

[Lawyer&Mom]

My understanding is that the situation in WA is unique in that the WA state constitution has provisions specifically addressing school funding. The 2012 charter law was passed by initiative. Apparently the initiative used standardized language from other states that didn't work with the school funding rules in the WA constitution. This decision is therefore unlikely to impact other states.

[kroe1]

We have a ton of charter schools here. They fill a huge gap in public school education by offering alternatives to learning like the Classical one which would make many of you homeschoolers proud. There are also performing arts schools and international studies which have brought opportunities not available in some of our public schools.

 

Electing a board to run each school is preposterous as no one could keep up with all the candidates. It is hard enough getting enough information on candidates running for the giant county school board. Electing charter school boards for each individual charter would be no different than voting on a principal and vice-principal in every single school. Surely this is not what the state justices foresee.

 

In regards to a charter school making a profit, I blame this on the public schools. If our leaders would evolve the public schools into being able to offer new opportunities rather than focusing so much on testing, maybe parents would not feel the need for charter schools.

[maize]

If I am understanding correctly, this case hinges on public control via elected school boards; apparently this is part of how a "common school" is defined for WA state constitutional purposes.

 

The charter schools as currently set up do not have elected boards.

 

ETA the constitutional provision in question apparently deals with school funding.

[Greta]

Maybe I would feel differently if I lived in WA, but here in NM, I am so grateful that we have charter schools.

 

The public schools here rank 49th or 50th in the U.S. Half of the students in our high schools drop out. The year that my daughter was due to start middle school, I looked up some stats about our local middle school online. I was surprised to see that they hadn't passed the testing required by the NCLB act since this is one of the best school disctricts in the city. Looked into it more and found out that NOT ONE middle school in this entire city of half a million people had passed. The only ones that had passed were charter schools.

 

One of our charter schools made it onto a list of 100 best schools in the nation - pretty striking for a place where the schools usually come in dead last. Several other charter schools perform really well also. Not all do. But that is in part because some of them are catered to troubled and high-risk teens, and that is a service that is desperately needed here. Also, I think it's really neat that we have a charter school geared toward classical education, one geared toward science and math, and one geared toward the arts. I think that's a nice option for kids who know where their passions and talents lie at a young age.

 

As long as I'm living in this state, I will support charter schools. Maybe the situations are entirely different in other states.

[LucyStoner]

Didn't know any Charter's were actually open here yet, I am wondering how our school and others as ALE's (alternative learning enviroments) are legally different than Charters.

All ALEs are public schools in the district that they are located. Charters are a whole different (new) beast, separate from the school districts.

[Greta]

I am not opposed to private or lottery schools--private, which is privately funded, and lottery, in which anyone can attend.

 

This is the way charter schools work in my state. Any child can attend. Admissions are done by lottery.

[lea_lpz]

Interesting.

 

California has a boatload of charter schools, both campus-based schools and home-based schools. I wonder if there will be any challenges there.

Most of the families in our homeschool group (including ours) are independent study students in a charter school for "homeschoolers", including us.

 

I am not sure how the charter would be unconstitutional though. As long as there is enough room anyone can apply. It's totally secular and parents cannot use funding to buy religius material or form "Christian groups" in affiliation with the charter school.

 

I am not sure how the brick and mortar ones work. I would say the hardest thing is they limit the class size at our local charter so although they use a lottery to get in it's very difficult to get your child in.

[lea_lpz]

Charters here (technically. We don't have a charter in our actual valley) are done by lottery. The weird thing--the very VERY small mountain town north of here ONLY has a charter.I guess it's okay, as, on paper, the children could attend another school in the district. Only, that would be a 6 hour drive in the winter!

I was wondering what about small, rural school. There are actually quite a bit of these in our tri-county area in the rural zones.

[mellifera33]

Classes haven't started at most of these schools. Isn't fall 2015 the opening date for most of the approved programs?

 

 

 

The local charter schools have been in session for two weeks.

 

 

 

I have to wonder what will happen to all these children. They can hardly dump them back into the regular public school buildings. We have something similar happening here. Due to the county's hounding of a local private school, it has closed. 65 kids, boom, into the system. This all happened one week before school started. Ours is a small school district. This many kids, many of whom have never been in a ps, coming into a totally new school system, is going to be a wreck. 

 

Since all but one of the charter schools are brand new, I don't think it will be a problem. I imagine that most of the families will go back to whatever they did last year, be it public, private, or homeschool.

 

 

 

Charter schools here are state funded and have their own boards. The board is formed long before the charter is granted, so I don't see how they could turn that into an elected position. In truth, there are many leadership roles in school systems that are appointed, and many of them decide how to spend state funds. I don't see how they are using that rationale, honestly. 

 

As I understand it, it goes back to an idiosyncrasy in our state constitution.

 

We do have some public magnet/choice programs with require certain test scores and even applications. Some kids might not qualify for those schools but they are not charters and they have been operating for awhile. They do have SpEd services at most of those schools.

 

We do have several magnet/choice schools in our district, some of which are very good, some of which...meh.

 

Didn't know any Charter's were actually open here yet, I am wondering how our school and others as ALE's (alternative learning enviroments) are legally different than Charters.

 

Since the ALEs are considered regular public schools, they won't be affected. I considered signing up my kids with an ALE, but I decided against it when the funding restrictions got so tight a few years ago. 

[poppy]

This is the way charter schools work in my state. Any child can attend. Admissions are done by lottery.

 

How is the application process for lotteries? My fear of charters and magnet schools has to do with the likelihood of having the most involved and engaged parents all moving to alternative school, leaving  the local schools being filled with kids of parents who aren't (meaning already at a disadvantage).  Or parents who just don't get it.  It's easy to not "get it" when it comes to school stuff.... I recall a 3 page, small font, single space doc on how to order lunch which was full of gobbledygook and rather mystifying.  I can't imagine what an ESL parent would think of it.

 

But I could be wrong-

[poppy]

Well, couldn't you use the same argument against private school or homeschool parents? I certainly have been accused to "abandoning" our ps students many times. I once had a very strident state senator get quite rude about it. Our local private school, that was just hounded into oblivion, was certainly accused of that, over and over. It's really become polarizing here, sad to sad, to the detriment of the children. I don't know what the answer is, but I hate to see parents' choices curtailed. 

 

But aren't charter schools publicly funded, while private school and homeschool are not?

I have no experience with charter schools- not arguing, just asking.

[Greta]

How is the application process for lotteries? My fear of charters and magnet schools has to do with the likelihood of having the most involved and engaged parents all moving to alternative school, leaving the local schools being filled with kids of parents who aren't (meaning already at a disadvantage). Or parents who just don't get it. It's easy to not "get it" when it comes to school stuff.... I recall a 3 page, small font, single space doc on how to order lunch which was full of gobbledygook and rather mystifying. I can't imagine what an ESL parent would think of it.

 

But I could be wrong-

The application process varies slightly by school, but every one that I have experience with was very simple. It was a simple form on their website, asking only the most basic information: names of parents, address and phone number, name and age of the child, that sort of thing. It also said you could apply in person in the office, but I have no experience with how that works. Probably a paper version of the same form?

 

So the application process itself was simple, BUT it's definitely a self-selected group of people that apply, and not a random sampling of the community. For one thing, most charter schools here do not provide transportation. So there has to be at least one parent who has both a car and a schedule that allows them to drop off and pick up the kids. I do see your point: just because it's available to all doesn't necessarily mean it's acccessible to all.

[wapiti]

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Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[Lawyer&Mom]

I don't have strong opinions either way about charter schools. But I am impressed that our district in Seattle has a lot of variety even without charters. Language immersion, STEM focus, Montessori, IB... Charters aren't the only way to avoid one size fits all.

[LucyStoner]

I don't have strong opinions either way about charter schools. But I am impressed that our district in Seattle has a lot of variety even without charters. Language immersion, STEM focus, Montessori, IB... Charters aren't the only way to avoid one size fits all.

Access to these options is often limited based in geography and short supply of spaces. In the wake of the Supreme Court ruling on racial tie breakers for priority placement, Seattle has experienced a resegregation of many schools. I would have loved to get my older son into a language immersion program but alas, I don't have $800k for a Wallingford bungalow rattling around in my piggie bank. :p At the time, the only other language immersion site was an hour drive from our home, assuming I could him get in there either. Ditto Montessori- it was our first choice in our reference area but we got into our third choice. Two years of SPS is why I am here, lol. By the time my younger son was ready for school, we'd moved but if we were living where we were in Seattle,nthe choices had become even more limited and we would have likely had to send him to one of the worst schools in the city. The one where other principals and teachers grimace when you tell them your reference school.

[MrsBasil]

How is the application process for lotteries? My fear of charters and magnet schools has to do with the likelihood of having the most involved and engaged parents all moving to alternative school, leaving the local schools being filled with kids of parents who aren't (meaning already at a disadvantage). Or parents who just don't get it. It's easy to not "get it" when it comes to school stuff.... I recall a 3 page, small font, single space doc on how to order lunch which was full of gobbledygook and rather mystifying. I can't imagine what an ESL parent would think of it.

 

But I could be wrong-

In my town(which is not in WA) the charter schools have a one page form that you can pick up at the school office or download and fill out. You have to take the completed application, a birth certificate, and immunization records when you enroll for the lottery. The schools have the applications in English and Spansh on their website.

 

A criticism that often comes up in my area is that 3 of the 5 charters (and the 3 with the best test scores) are all concentrated in one(middle/upper middle class) area, have pick up lines parents are in for 30+ minutes, and charter schools do not offer bussing. Also, as I understand it , parents are required to put in X amount of volunteer time each year. I think it adds up to 60 hours. So, it's felt that those factors naturally exclude poorer students and students with unengaged parents.

 

I am a proponent of charters and school choice, but there are honest critiques that are worth discussing.

[Farrar]

Access to these options is often limited based in geography and short supply of spaces. 

 

I have seen charters do a lot of good work here in DC. But I really recognize how much that's dependent on this being a high density area with good public transit. I assume that some of the choice in Seattle is the same. You simply can't replicate that in a rural area and even in many suburbs it's not going to work.

[LucyStoner]

I have seen charters do a lot of good work here in DC. But I really recognize how much that's dependent on this being a high density area with good public transit. I assume that some of the choice in Seattle is the same. You simply can't replicate that in a rural area and even in many suburbs it's not going to work.

The main issue is that even the "choice" schools which are all city draws have geographical areas that have priority. Well, if the school is great what happens to the cost of housing in that one little area? I have seen 2 bedroom shacks that needed extensive work go for astronomical sums of money if the address is tied to one of those great schools. All the flyer needed to say was 2 blocks from xyz school and no one would care if there was a roof attached to the house or not. It creates a school system of haves and have nots where the best public schools have a housing price buy in which is out of reach for most. And it's not like the housing in the not as great of school areas is cheap- what we paid for our little townhouse in 2007 wasn't chump change. It's nothing new or different than other cities but the disparity in the same district is disheartening in the extreme.

[Farrar]

The main issue is that even the "choice" schools which are all city draws have geographical areas that have priority. Well, if the school is great what happens to the cost of housing in that one little area? I have seen 2 bedroom shacks that needed extensive work go for astronomical sums of money if the address is tied to one of those great schools. All the flyer needed to say was 2 blocks from xyz school and no one would care if there was a roof attached to the house or not. It creates a school system of haves and have nots where the best public schools have a housing price buy in which is out of reach for most. And it's not like the housing in the not as great of school areas is cheap- what we paid for our little townhouse in 2007 wasn't chump change. It's nothing new or different than other cities but the disparity in the same district is disheartening in the extreme.

 

Here, at least, the charters (and the magnets, which in this city are all application and no geographic population) are making the housing market be less and less tied to the schools though, and that's helping the market be more evened out.

 

After the This American Life series a few weeks ago about school integration, I had some interesting discussions with people about how magnet programs like the one where I grew up in Wake County, NC (where the magnets are in poorer neighborhoods and draw more affluent kids with special programs), have changed the equation for this sort of thing as well - if people know they're buying into a total district, not a particular school, and if the area is large enough - then over time it helps a district become slowly more racially and economically integrated in terms of neighborhoods as well as schools. Everyone knows they have access to the same lottery for the special programs regardless of zip code and the district is evening out the numbers to make sure that no one school is mired in poverty.

 

But geography is still a problem - maybe the biggest one.

 

My own feeling is that I'm for the charters that arise from community organizing and against the ones that are for profit. The for profit trends in education in this country are terrible.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Access to these options is often limited based in geography and short supply of spaces. In the wake of the Supreme Court ruling on racial tie breakers for priority placement, Seattle has experienced a resegregation of many schools. I would have loved to get my older son into a language immersion program but alas, I don't have $800k for a Wallingford bungalow rattling around in my piggie bank. :p At the time, the only other language immersion site was an hour drive from our home, assuming I could him get in there either. Ditto Montessori- it was our first choice in our reference area but we got into our third choice. Two years of SPS is why I am here, lol. By the time my younger son was ready for school, we'd moved but if we were living where we were in Seattle,nthe choices had become even more limited and we would have likely had to send him to one of the worst schools in the city. The one where other principals and teachers grimace when you tell them your reference school.

I agree it's silly that the option schools have geographic preferences. I think they should be lottery schools. I'm still glad the option programs exist, even if my kids are unlikely to benefit.

 

We are zoned for a great elementary school and we will probably take full advantage. I'm the first to admit we will benefit from the recent shift to neighborhood schools.

[LucyStoner]

I agree it's silly that the option schools have geographic preferences. I think they should be lottery schools. I'm still glad the option programs exist, even if my kids are unlikely to benefit.

 

We are zoned for a great elementary school and we will probably take full advantage. I'm the first to admit we will benefit from the recent shift to neighborhood schools.

Not to be a total Debbie Downer but I learned that even the best schools here can be bad fits for some kids. My son tested into the gifted program so we moved him to that after kindergarten and by the end of 1st grade, we had to look for alternatives. We weren't alone either- there was a mini-migration out of the school he was at. Voila, homeschooling. I was the last person who ever thought we would homeschool. There are some great schools and teachers but every year it's a bit like playing the lottery...will he get the great teacher or the teacher who should find another profession like yesterday? My son drew the short straw on teacher quality both years. It was disillusioning. It's part of why I was even willing to vote for charters.

[Sneezyone]

Not to be a total Debbie Downer but I learned that even the best schools here can be bad fits for some kids. My son tested into the gifted program so we moved him to that after kindergarten and by the end of 1st grade, we had to look for alternatives. We weren't alone either- there was a mini-migration out of the school he was at. Voila, homeschooling. I was the last person who ever thought we would homeschool. There's some great schools and teachers but every year it's a bit like playing the lottery...will he get the great teacher or the teacher who should find another profession like yesterday? My son drew the short straw on teacher quality both years. It was disillusioning. It's part of why I was even willing to vote for charters.

I remember SPS when bussing was big and it was a much more inclusive and dynamic system. Messy but dynamic. It's sad what neighborhood schools have done to the city. Housing costs aside, the students are less friendly, the parents more territorial, and a whole lot of kids are left on the outside looking in. We abandoned Magnolia after a year and have friends who bailed on Loyal Heights after two. I believe in public schools but cannot support the way the best programs and resources have been divvied up among certain communities and, let's be honest, that Charter law would not have passed but for support in urban western Washington so there's plenty of dissatisfaction. Compared to many states tho, WA schools have not been gutted nearly so much in terms of funding and services and giving charters a foothold is likely to undermine that. I'm torn. I want the districts to do better, be more equitable, innovate.

[Heathermomster]

Well, most folks don't know that. I had several conversations to just that effect this past week. One dad, a refugee from the closed-down private school, had no clue that that was the case. Over and over, I've had folks argue that online ps were homeschools. Um, no. Most of the public see that anything that isn't little Jimmy going in the doors of the local ps is "taking away money from our schools". They're always surprised to hear that yes, the hsers still pay property taxes, and yes, the private school parents do too. 

What is funny about that is homeschoolers and private school families still pay taxes.  How else does a school get money?  Free breakfast and lunch programs?  Sorry, but my family doesn't qualify.

[poppy]

What is funny about that is homeschoolers and private school families still pay taxes.  How else does a school get money?  Free breakfast and lunch programs?  Sorry, but my family doesn't qualify.

 

People without children or with grown children pay the exact same taxes too.

 

Schools do get funding at least partially based on attendance, of course, so fewer pupils means less money.  But not on a "per student" basis.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Not to be a total Debbie Downer but I learned that even the best schools here can be bad fits for some kids. My son tested into the gifted program so we moved him to that after kindergarten and by the end of 1st grade, we had to look for alternatives. We weren't alone either- there was a mini-migration out of the school he was at. Voila, homeschooling. I was the last person who ever thought we would homeschool. There are some great schools and teachers but every year it's a bit like playing the lottery...will he get the great teacher or the teacher who should find another profession like yesterday? My son drew the short straw on teacher quality both years. It was disillusioning. It's part of why I was even willing to vote for charters.

I know fit is a crap shoot, especially with gifted kids. (I grew up in an small affluent school district that despite all the extra arts and teacher's aids didn't really meet my needs.) But I can't complain. Having such a well ranked school as an option? It doesn't suck.

[Sneezyone]

I think Farrar has a good point about the magnet schools. When McCarver (Tacoma) opened as a magnet in the 70s it was the first in the nation to be an all-city draw. The students I went to school with came from all over the city, even from Annie Wright and Charles Wright. I hope to see more programs like that return to the big districts. I know it's not possible everywhere in the state and places like Inchelium have very different needs but more magnet, open choice schools would help for sure.

 

I beg to differ on the idea of well-ranked schools not sucking. Unless you went to schools in the city before, it's hard to see how far things have slipped. Sure the test scores are strong but the kids, themselves, are not allright. My child was bullied terribly (and was not alone) in Magnolia and my neighbor (a Puerto-Rican college graduate with a professional spouse) was invited to clean her child's classroom when she volunteered to read to the children during parent read-aloud time. There's a lot more to making a school great than test scores and the best fit for my neighbor's bilingual kids was definitely not Lawton. What the parents in Ranier Beach and Clover Park and Federal Way want is not to move to less inclusive places like Bellevue or North Seattle, it's better options that are open to all WITH transportation. I'm sympathetic to that. They should have that. I just know how slowly things get done in WA though and am not convinced the districts can capitalize on this reprieve. I think charters will ultimately return.

[LucyStoner]

Sneezy, as a mom whose child was mistreated in the extreme at one of the best, most coveted schools, I get it. I think that particular school is better now but there's just no real guarantee. The schools I was bussed to in the mid 80s were way better than both of the good programs he went to. We now live in a district with a much better overall reputation than Seattle and still, the school just doesn't compel me to think my younger son would be better educated there than home.

 

You can't really integrate the schools without integrating the neighborhoods. Still, school integration is the only thing known to have significant and persistent impact on the achievement gap. Farrar mentioned that recent 2 episode piece they did about this on This American Life. Excellent listen for anyone who is interested.

 

One regional draw we are looking at is Aviation High School, which is by application. It's also not in Seattle. We are seriously considering moving to the South King County area to be in closer proximity, because while you don't need to live there to get in, where we are is about a million miles from there if you are thinking Seattle traffic, lol.

[Sneezyone]

Sneezy, as a mom whose child was mistreated in the extreme at one of the best, most coveted schools, I get it. I think that particular school is better now but there's just no real guarantee. The schools I was bussed to in the mid 80s were way better than both of the good programs he went to. We now live in a district with a much better overall reputation than Seattle and still, the school just doesn't compel me to think my younger son would be better educated there than home.

 

You can't really integrate the schools without integrating the neighborhoods. Still, school integration is the only thing known to have significant and persistent impact on the achievement gap. Farrar mentioned that recent 2 episode piece they did about this on This American Life. Excellent listen for anyone who is interested.

 

One regional draw we are looking at is Aviation High School, which is by application. It's also not in Seattle. We are seriously considering moving to the South King County area to be in closer proximity, because while you don't need to live there to get in, where we are is about a million miles from there if you are thinking Seattle traffic, lol.

 

You can't really integrate the schools without integrating the neighborhoods. Still, school integration is the only thing known to have significant and persistent impact on the achievement gap. Farrar mentioned that recent 2 episode piece they did about this on This American Life. Excellent listen for anyone who is interested.

Couldn't agree more. I've attempted to describe to people what McCarver was like in the 80s and they simply cannot believe that a school like that existed. It has an active Facebook alumni group...an elementary school?! Yes, an elementary school in the 'worst' part of the city. I've tried and failed many times over to find a school that comes close for my own kids. We plan to return when DH retires. The traffic scares me. lol.

[Amy in NH]

I have spoken with quite a few parents, who live in the best-ranked public school districts in the state, whose kids suffer greatly from anxiety induced by severe academic and social pressures.  They are seeking another alternative, and usually they really don't want to homeschool.  Online public charter school is often a good option for them; but there is a lot of confusion over whether or not this is homeschooling.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't have strong opinions either way about charter schools. But I am impressed that our district in Seattle has a lot of variety even without charters. Language immersion, STEM focus, Montessori, IB... Charters aren't the only way to avoid one size fits all.

This is true but a lot of school districts feel no need to improve or offer different offerings like language immersion or montessori and what not until they feel pressure from competition. I honestly believe this and I am a card carrying Democrat for the most part. Our local public school system felt no need to improve despite most of the schools being abysmal or tp offer more variety in educational offerings until the district felt threatened by the fact that almost half of the students are now choosing charters. And now we are finally seeing some serious efforts on the part of the school district to improve (but it for the most part still has a long way to go).

[DawnM]

We are finding our B&M Charter to be a great alternative to that as well.  

 

 

I have spoken with quite a few parents, who live in the best-ranked public school districts in the state, whose kids suffer greatly from anxiety induced by severe academic and social pressures.  They are seeking another alternative, and usually they really don't want to homeschool.  Online public charter school is often a good option for them; but there is a lot of confusion over whether or not this is homeschooling.