Help with picking spelling, writing and grammar for 3rd and 4th grader

[avazquez24]

I'm changing up our curriculum some, and so I am looking into what to use for spelling, writing and grammar.  DD is in 4th grade and DS is in 3rd grade.  I am open to combining them for these subjects, or keeping them separate (as long as it's not too teacher intensive).  For spelling we've used AAS for a couple years, but dd hated the tiles.  I would still consider AAS, as long as we skipped the tiles (but does that defeat the whole purpose of the program?).  The kids are not horrible spellers, but they're also not natural spellers. For grammar, DD has tried Easy Grammar and Growing with Grammar.  She didn't retain the info too well in ES, and she's getting frustrated lately with GWG (partially due to the digraming).  In all honesty, I don't really care about the kids learning to digram sentences (especially at this age).  I feel like they need more of the "basics" as of now.  DD has used WWE and W&R for writing in the past.  She became bored with WWE over the years, and W&R ended up being ok.  DS struggles with the physical aspect of writing due to his fine motor delays, so I haven't done much in the way of writing with him.  If he were to dictate something to me, he has no problem coming up with ideas and such for writing though. He can add all sorts of details, has a great vocabulary, ect.    DD struggles a lot more when it comes to the ideas (but she's fine with the physical writing part, unlike DS). 

So, would love to hear some ideas from others:) 

ETA: I'm open to separate spelling, writing and grammar, or one program that includes them all (or two of them)

[mom31257]

I am a big fan of IEW's SWI Level A. It is so much fun!  They would each need their own notebook. You could watch the videos with them or invest in the teacher course to go above and beyond what they are learning and know more how to teach writing.

 

I'm also really liking their grammar program, Fix-It. You could definitely do both of these programs together.  IEW has spelling, too. Phonetic Zoo

 

The great thing is that IEW has a 100% money back guarantee, even the shipping to return items and even if they are written in. 

 

 

I also really like Christian Light, if you want something more individualized and affordable. All three subjects are included in their language arts program. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Holly]

We are using 3 levels of ELTL and really enjoying it so far.  I am substituting Spelling Wisdom for the dictation exercises since I already own it (and love it).  ELTL eventually uses sentence diagramming starting in level 4, but right now they are just circling parts of speech from a passage.  You could combine them both in the same level.  I love that it includes poetry, literature, and picture study as well as writing, grammar, handwriting, and narration.  

[kiwik]

Treasured Conversations?

[MerryAtHope]

You can use AAS without the tiles and still have it be effective.

 

If you want to combine writing and grammar, you could check out Essentials in Writing. You could probably combine them in one level too. I'm not one who thinks you have to do both grammar and writing every year though--I think it's fine to switch topics and hit grammar again later on.

[SnMomof7]

Have you looked into CLE? We really like it. Comprehensive, encourages independence, teaches all the 'little stuff'.

[Ellie]

I'm changing up our curriculum some, and so I am looking into what to use for spelling, writing and grammar.  DD is in 4th grade and DS is in 3rd grade.  I am open to combining them for these subjects, or keeping them separate (as long as it's not too teacher intensive).  For spelling we've used AAS for a couple years, but dd hated the tiles.  I would still consider AAS, as long as we skipped the tiles (but does that defeat the whole purpose of the program?).  The kids are not horrible spellers, but they're also not natural spellers. For grammar, DD has tried Easy Grammar and Growing with Grammar.  She didn't retain the info too well in ES, and she's getting frustrated lately with GWG (partially due to the digraming).  In all honesty, I don't really care about the kids learning to digram sentences (especially at this age).  I feel like they need more of the "basics" as of now.  DD has used WWE and W&R for writing in the past.  She became bored with WWE over the years, and W&R ended up being ok.  DS struggles with the physical aspect of writing due to his fine motor delays, so I haven't done much in the way of writing with him.  If he were to dictate something to me, he has no problem coming up with ideas and such for writing though. He can add all sorts of details, has a great vocabulary, ect.    DD struggles a lot more when it comes to the ideas (but she's fine with the physical writing part, unlike DS). 

So, would love to hear some ideas from others:) 

ETA: I'm open to separate spelling, writing and grammar, or one program that includes them all (or two of them)

 

That a child as young as your dd didn't seem to "retain" anything from her grammar instruction doesn't amaze me, because it will usually take more time for grammar concepts to stick. :-) Easy Grammar is still my favorite, but I don't usually recommend that children do it for the first time until they are 10ish. Which is also to say I wouldn't recommend it for your ds.

 

My favorite writing is Writing Strands. Your dd could do Level 3 or 4 (they are experience levels, not grade levels).  Your ds would definitely be Level 3.

 

If you'd like a spelling that is more independent, you could try Spelling by Sound and Structure (Rod and Staff). But for a more comprehensive spelling (and penmanship, and capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing), my recommendation would be Spalding.

[My3girls]

We used SpellWell (very traditional), FLL, and Writing and Rhetoric for 3rd/4th. We have continued with this line-up for 4th/5th. SpellWell is mostly independent. FLL only takes 10-15 min per day so can't complain there. They do still have trouble identifying parts of speech, but they know the definitions. I think it's a maturity and needs more practice thing not a curriculum thing. W&R was a tough transition from WWE, and we spent all of last year on Fables. They are doing very well with it, now, and I'm seeing an improvement in writing they do for other subjects. I anticipate getting through Narrative I & II this year.

[FO4UR]

For my ds9 I'm using:

 

Companion for Treadwell's 3rd Reader   The actual reader is here.  (If you want the same book in manuscript instead of cursive or need to start with the 2nd reader, look here.)

 

Essentials in Spelling 3  (This is free to download through Labor Day.  Link and code are in my siggie.)

 

For a child with fine motor delay, I'd start with Essentials in Spelling 2.  It combines beginning cursive with beginning spelling skills.  Cursive is more ergonomic, and surprisingly easier for many kids who struggle with printing. (Also free this weekend...see siggie.)

 

I cover writing at this stage through oral narration and copywork.  Read a story from Treadwell and tell it back.  Use other books for narrations too.  I wrote a big long blog post with a list of narration prompts.

 

 

I am doing grammar orally in our Morning Meeting time.  We are reviewing the definitions and lists of parts of speech.  (We started with FLL 1/2 years ago, so it's just loss prevention at this point.)  Then, as the kids go through copywork and dictation exercises, we review again, seeing how things apply.)  They are also doing Latin, which covers plenty of grammar.  So, we aren't doing a separate grammar curric.

 

My kids who can are writing narrations from their readings. I do some scribing down of narrations to be copied into notebooks too.

 

 

 

 

That sounds like a lot, but it boils down to copywork, narration (oral for the fm delayed one), and dictation.  Even the spelling program is just a prop for getting some dictations down.  

 

 

 

[TheAttachedMama]

We use AAS because IMHO it is the strongest phonics based spelling program that I have ever seen on the market.  The author has also taken a very complicated subject (like English language spelling) and simplified it so that it is easy to remember and understand.  

 

Compare the AAS rules to other rule based programs like Phonetic zoo:

Here is how phonetic zoo asks you to remember things:

"When a-i says a
as in claim or chain,
It comes in the middle
as in train and pain.   

But when a-y says a
as in jay and portray,
It comes at the end.
See decay and delay.

Don't let suffixes betray you
as in decayed,
The root never changes.
See playful and played."

 

This to how AAS teaches this same rule:

"ay, two-letter A that we may use at the end of English words."

"ai, two-letter A that we may not use at the end of English words."

 

Which do you think is easier to remember, understand, and apply?  That is obviously personally preference, but to me AAS is a no brainer.

 

I will say that AAS has its downsides.   It is VERY expensive for what you get.   And the letter tiles can be a pain.   However, I think some dyslexic learners like my son really need an actual physical thing to touch when learning to spell.  They need multisensory input.   For other, more typical learners, this is not as important.   They can probably use a substitute.   My friend has an app on her ipad (not developed by AAS) that uses all of the same "virtual" letter tiles as AAS.   And you can drag these virtual letter tiles to spell words.   It is sort  of like a virtual AAS white board...but I am not sure of the name.   I just know that it exists.  :) 

 

Another mistake I think people often make with AAS is that they make it a goal to 'finish' the level.   They go through AAS and check off all of the boxes, but they don't hang out on each step long enough to make sure true learning has been cemented.     I think that spelling is one of those things that needs to be over practiced----And I mean over practiced to the point where it becomes something that you don't even have to think about.   The brain needs to be freed up to think about content when writing.   You can't have it tied up in remember spelling rules.   So they need to be learned, and then over practiced IMHO.  

 

Some people like programs like Apples and Pears because they naturally have all of this practice built in.   In that program the child has to practice various spelling patterns over and over again so they are more easily retained.  

I build this into AAS myself because I can see that it is needed for my children.  Just quizzing my children on the words and more words then doing sentences would NOT be enough practice for my kids.   (Even though I would have checked off all of the AAS boxes for that lesson.)   They might get the words right when I am teaching that lesson, but we need to make sure they are learned for the long term.  So--I actually add in a lot more review and dictation.  

 

ETA:  Sorry about all of the typos.   Typing one handed while "trapped" under napping toddler.  ;)

[ZeldaRules]

Definitely use AAS without the tiles.  My oldest hated the tiles.  I quit using it with him after book 2 because I thought it was expensive as we would go through a few books a year.  I am using AAS with my two younger, and will eventually have all the books.  I got lucky and bought the tiles and cards up to level 7 from someone whose son was done using AAS.  I have found a few of the levels in the used section of the homeschool store.  Since I have the manipulatives, I only need the book...so the program got a little cheaper.  I will stick with it because it's easy.  My daughter doesn't like to use the tiles now - she is in 2nd.  My 9yo son, I will always make him use the tiles because he is special needs and I think the tiles help him a lot.

 

If your children hate using the tiles for AAS, I say give them up.  Maybe just use them for certain lessons for visuals.  I have my oldest use Spectrum Spelling workbooks because I like how the lessons make them use the words in various ways (fill in the story with the correct spelling words, use them in ABC topic, etc.) - something AAS doesn't have.

 

Understanding grammar and making it all connect is something that happens when they reach the logic stage.  I was in the Homeschool Store in my town once and a worker there made a statement how grammar was logic based...and it really does make sense.  It's something that times time to comprehend...just like math and reading.  When the children are able to apply what they have learned on a regular basis, it starts to make sense to them.  

 

I am a fan of FLL, but it can get boring.  I love it because she makes you memorize all the info for parts of speech.  This totally helps when they hit the logic stage and diagram more.  Knowing all the helping verbs and prepositions makes doing the work that much easier.  I use Saxon Grammar...which is Hake.  A lesson has 30 questions, a few vocabulary words, and has a few diagramming sentences at the end of each lesson.  It's dry (I won't lie) and takes my son some time to do the lessons (but he's slow at doing all of his work), so we only do it 2 or 3 days a week.  I think it starts in grade 4.  I think it's a solid program.  It's spiral, so I think it helps my son retain the information pretty well.  The vocabulary words are not easy words.  I forget what some of them mean and have to look them up.  5 or 6 questions in each lesson have to do with previous lesson's vocabulary words. The other days, I use Wordly Wise, and then a bunch of Critical Thinking books.  I love Reading Detective.  It helps with reading comprehension.  He uses Language Mechanics and Word Roots.  I have friends who just use Critical Thinking books for the grammar books.  Our homeschool store has a nice selection of Critical Thinking workbooks in the used section.  I use quite a few of them for my kids.

 

IEW is good for writing.  You can buy the Fairy Tales one for like $30, and then they give you the teacher's manual in eBook for free.  So then you can see if you like the program without a lot of investment.  I like IEW, but I'm ADD about writing as well as Grammar.  I have used W&R, and I do like it, but I'm using WWS for my son now, and that is pretty intense, so IEW is on hold for right now, but I do really like it.  And IEW improved the teacher book the student book for the Fairy Tale one (and a few others I believe, but not sure of which ones) to make it that much more user friendly-explains things better.  I think that book is twice as thick as it used to be.

 

You will get 20 answers, and they will all be different.   :)  Good luck!

 

Vicki

 

 

[avazquez24]

THank you so much everyone! So much to think about.  Just when I think I've narrowed it down, I start leaning towards something else :/ 

[Alane35]

Have any of you looked into Peace Hill Press? They are written by Susan Bauer and a few others. They are wonderful!

 

[My3girls]

THank you so much everyone! So much to think about.  Just when I think I've narrowed it down, I start leaning towards something else :/ 

 

 

I know this feeling!  I was asking about IEW vs. WWS on the logic stage forum, and now, I am considering 3 other curriculums for my 8th grader. lol 

[mamakelly]

I've found that Phonetic Zoo only works well with my older struggling speller. She started it in 6th grade and likes it. She's an auditory learner and likes to hear the rules and words read out loud for her. I tried PZ with my boules when they were 3rd and 5th and it did not work well for them.