Jump to content

Menu

Is it even worth it to school when they're like this?


Recommended Posts

Time: 9-10:15am

Who: 10.5 year old DS

What: Mind Benders Level 3 and Right Start Geometry

 

The Mind Benders is new this year, so he was just doing the third page today.  I helped him with the first two earlier this week but I still pretty much had to talk him through the one today, and remind him to mark off the rest of the column and row after he found a match.  There was much whining involved, and he wanted to mark that the dog was named Rover (because all Rovers are dogs, don't you know?) without even reading the clues first.  (The dog was not named Rover btw.)

 

For those not familiar, RightStart Geometry is written to the student, so they're supposed to be able to read the lesson and do it on their own.  He is on lesson 38 so this is nothing new to him.  He was supposed to draw two figures in the boxes provided, then cut them out.  The problem here is he did not read the directions in order.  He skipped to #2 where it said to cut it out, so he cut out the boxes.  #1 told him what to draw first.  When he realized his mistake, he freaked out, whined, threw his pencil on the table, pouted, and said he was bad.  I said we can just use some washi tape to hold it in place while he draws his figures.  THEN he couldn't figure out how to draw the lines on the points given, "because it looks different from the picture."  Well of course it does, you haven't drawn anything yet.  He still couldn't figure out what to do.  (The first step was just drawing horizontal lines on the points given, he's been done many things in Rightstart much more difficult than that.)

 

His brain is obviously not on.  He says he is grumpy.  (Yeah, the attitude came out this morning.)  It's now 10:30.  He's still sitting there doing RightStart.  I think it's going better now, but I'm still wondering if he's even learning anything or if this is all just a waste of time right now.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would offer a snack and a short break outside (doing something that involved exercise like riding a bike), then read together on the couch for a bit. Then, depending on whether or not I thought he was up to it at that point, I might attempt to finish the math lesson. I would probably just try it again on Monday, though. Sometimes a kid's brain is just fried and they need a break or a reset.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had some chocolate put aside, so I gave him some chocolate and he burst into tears because he thought he didn't deserve it.  (I know, snacks are usually something healthy, but it really seemed like a chocolate moment!)  But I think his mood is picking up some.

 

We took a short walk this morning before starting school, but it's still rainy and gross outside.  We had flash flooding last night, and this morning we went down the street to watch them pump the little lake before it overflowed the road.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phase 1 Student

The instructor walks the child through each step of the assignment supervising continually and giving feedback.

 

Phase 2 Student

The child reads aloud the directions to the instructor and explains what they mean in her own words.  She looks at the examples and explains to the instructor how they were done. Then the child does the assignment on her own, bringing it back for corrections when completed.

 

Phase 3 Student

The child reads the instructions to herself and looks through the examples and completes the assignment on her own asking for clarification as needed.

 

Few children jump from phase 1 to phase 3 immediately.  Many have to spend quite a while in phase 2 before moving to phase 3.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This may or may not be your child, but I felt I would share my similar experience.

 

Last year my daughter would do anything to escape what she didn't want to do that felt like "work". She wouldn't try at all, she would just guess. She never read the instructions, and if I didn't know better, I would have thought she had a learning disability. But loe and behold, when it was a subject she enjoyed, she had no issues completing it quickly and correctly.

 

She would cry in frustration. She would give me every excuse imaginable. She would even say "maybe I'm just too stupid." I would tell her she was very smart and could do it--she just wasn't applying herself.

 

It completely frazzled me. I was at my wits end. I tried everything I could think of. I was pulling out my hair. I knew she could do the work, but like you said, her brain was shut off.

 

I went to my husband and I said "This is your genes, she takes after you! How do I fix this?!" LOL

 

He sat her down and simply said, it doesn't matter how long you have to sit here, you won't leave the table until it's done and done correctly. He also added, this is not a punishment. There are things in life we do not want to do that we just have to do. I don't want to go to work, but I have to. You don't want to do this lesson, but you have to.

 

The only reason she was allowed to leave was for meals and bathroom breaks. For 1 week she sat there for a few hours, stubborn. He would come home and help her to finish her work and she would try to get him to give her the answers by playing dumb. He wouldn't give in.

 

He sat down with her again and said, "If you just try, you can be finished quickly and have lots of free time."

 

It took her about one more week and she progressively finished faster and with less and less help. After two weeks she started getting it done correctly in less than 30 minutes.

 

The school work that took me all day to have her complete finally began to be finished in only a few hours.

 

We praised her and my husband asked "Isn't it better now that your work is out of the way? You can now do the fun things you want."

 

It clicked. I swear, I saw it in her brain click! She's been good with it ever since. It wasn't that she couldn't do the work. It was that she had yet to develop the incentive, that forced drive we have to do something we don't actually want to do. That's not a born trait, it's conditioned.

 

Forcing a child to learn to play an instrument they do not want to, learn a new language, or other not so fun lengthy tasks that end up being rewarding over a long period of time helps to develop that too. But some will fight it more than others.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the reminder.  I do need to remember this.

 

It's just that DS is incredibly resistant to Phase 2.  He hates it when I make him read the directions aloud.  Hates.  I don't know why.  But usually after I force him to read them aloud (and yes I say force, because it is essentially a verbal war to get him to do so), he finally understands what he is supposed to do.  Even worse, he hates explaining it.  He says he can't explain it.  "I'm not a good explainer!"  I model.   I ask questions.  I make him repeat it back.  I've been doing this for years.  He still does not do it easily.

 

He'd rather me walk him through something (Phase 1) or leave him alone to do it. (Phase 3.)  Sometimes it's okay, sometimes he does not pay attention to the directions, and then gets frustrated when I have to correct him later.  Sigh.

 

 

Phase 1 Student

The instructor walks the child through each step of the assignment supervising continually and giving feedback.

 

Phase 2 Student

The child reads aloud the directions to the instructor and explains what they mean in her own words.  She looks at the examples and explains to the instructor how they were done. Then the child does the assignment on her own, bringing it back for corrections when completed.

 

Phase 3 Student

The child reads the instructions to herself and looks through the examples and completes the assignment on her own asking for clarification as needed.

 

Few children jump from phase 1 to phase 3 immediately.  Many have to spend quite a while in phase 2 before moving to phase 3.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something you can do with a phase 2 resistant child--Write numbers and circle them (ie 1, 2, 3....) above each step in multi-step instructions, and then say to him,

 

"Some of these problems have more than one step to them, so you have to be really careful reading the instructions. I marked the steps. Put a check mark by the number after you read each one and are sure you understand it."

 

Also as a precursor to stage 3, I asked my kids to silently read the instructions and put a number above each step. You could have him show you that or do that while you sit on the couch--then if he doesn't number a step, treat it like phase 1, read it to him and explain. 

 

The explaining issues sounds like a student who has either some working memory or expressive language issues. (Could also be executive functioning issues--it's hard to know how to order the steps in his mind.) You might work on having him explain easier things (retelling what he did at a friend's house--something with less pressure) to work on this (although I'll admit that sometimes even that kind of explaining/retelling created stress for one of mine who struggled with this). Ask him what he might think of a compromise--he can read the instructions and then do one problem to show he understands before moving on. Or, ask him to read the instructions to you, but then decide if he would like to be the explainer that day or if he would like you to be the explainer. See if there are ways to break down phase 2 that are more palatable for him.

 

I used the frustration/throw pencil stuff as a learning tool--not in the moment when they are angry, but later on. 

 

"I know you don't like to read instructions to me, but when you don't, sometimes you miss things and then you get really upset. You aren't supposed to be able to do everything on your own yet, though I know you want to." 

 

Then ask him to brainstorm solutions with you. How could you both approach his work differently that might be a better fit for his learning style and result in less frustration days?

 

Part of me does wonder if Right Start isn't a strong match for his learning style. My oldest needed a lot of modeling and direct, incremental teaching. Maybe it skips some of those steps or hopes students will discover them on their own. It took me a few curriculum tries before realizing that various "discovery-oriented" types of programs didn't work here (and in fact made my oldest feel set up to fail).

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many personality types aren’t naturally detail oriented.  Reading instructions is detail oriented.  We all have to learn to do things that don’t come naturally. Not everyone is particularly spatially oriented, but we still expect them to be able to drive and park without hitting other things.  Not everyone is particularly verbally oriented, but we expect them to be able to articulate their thoughts and needs at developmentally appropriate levels.  Not everyone is mathy, but we have minimum standards for math whether or not students are inclined that way. 

My youngest hated phonics because she didn’t want to slow down and sound things out.  She wanted to look at the first letter and guess.  There was sobbing and crying about it on a daily basis for months and months when I made her slow down and read each practice sentence correctly before moving on. Oh well.  Like it or not, she still had to sound things out. She’s an excellent reader now. She hates reading directions to me and paraphrasing them.  Oh well.  There are things in life we all have to do that we don’t want to do. The nice thing about being homeschooled is you can let those emotions out without being publicly shamed by other kids.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with the poster above who talked about having her child sit at the table until it was done.

 

I remember when mum was at wits end with my sister and got strict with her, and she too was only allowed to leave the table for the bathroom (meals were served at the table). There were a few nights she ate dinner at her desk and finally finished around 9pm. But, given a week or two, and she 'got it'. She began starting her work before breakfast, and finishing well before lunch. She just needed to see there was a benifit to getting stuck in, and that playing dumb wouldn't take the work away. 

 

However, I will say, if it's just a once off 'bad day' i am likely to just say 'leave it till tomorrow and move on to something like science'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the reminder.  I do need to remember this.

 

It's just that DS is incredibly resistant to Phase 2.  He hates it when I make him read the directions aloud.  Hates.  I don't know why.  But usually after I force him to read them aloud (and yes I say force, because it is essentially a verbal war to get him to do so), he finally understands what he is supposed to do.  Even worse, he hates explaining it.  He says he can't explain it.  "I'm not a good explainer!"  I model.   I ask questions.  I make him repeat it back.  I've been doing this for years.  He still does not do it easily.

 

He'd rather me walk him through something (Phase 1) or leave him alone to do it. (Phase 3.)  Sometimes it's okay, sometimes he does not pay attention to the directions, and then gets frustrated when I have to correct him later.  Sigh.

 

I showed mine the part of the video in which SWB talks about WWS, and she specifically says that first the student will say ''I don't know what to do,'' then you have them read it aloud and they say ''Oh! Now I get it.'' He knew her name because it's on some of our books, and hearing someone who wasn't me say what I'd said and say that it's an entirely typical thing made him feel better. Not that I don't still get some resistance when he's already worked about something, but it's been better.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something you can do with a phase 2 resistant child--Write numbers and circle them (ie 1, 2, 3....) above each step in multi-step instructions, and then say to him,

 

"Some of these problems have more than one step to them, so you have to be really careful reading the instructions. I marked the steps. Put a check mark by the number after you read each one and are sure you understand it."

 

Also as a precursor to stage 3, I asked my kids to silently read the instructions and put a number above each step. You could have him show you that or do that while you sit on the couch--then if he doesn't number a step, treat it like phase 1, read it to him and explain. 

 

The explaining issues sounds like a student who has either some working memory or expressive language issues. (Could also be executive functioning issues--it's hard to know how to order the steps in his mind.) You might work on having him explain easier things (retelling what he did at a friend's house--something with less pressure) to work on this (although I'll admit that sometimes even that kind of explaining/retelling created stress for one of mine who struggled with this). Ask him what he might think of a compromise--he can read the instructions and then do one problem to show he understands before moving on. Or, ask him to read the instructions to you, but then decide if he would like to be the explainer that day or if he would like you to be the explainer. See if there are ways to break down phase 2 that are more palatable for him.

 

I used the frustration/throw pencil stuff as a learning tool--not in the moment when they are angry, but later on. 

 

"I know you don't like to read instructions to me, but when you don't, sometimes you miss things and then you get really upset. You aren't supposed to be able to do everything on your own yet, though I know you want to." 

 

Then ask him to brainstorm solutions with you. How could you both approach his work differently that might be a better fit for his learning style and result in less frustration days?

 

Part of me does wonder if Right Start isn't a strong match for his learning style. My oldest needed a lot of modeling and direct, incremental teaching. Maybe it skips some of those steps or hopes students will discover them on their own. It took me a few curriculum tries before realizing that various "discovery-oriented" types of programs didn't work here (and in fact made my oldest feel set up to fail).

Now why didn't I think of that?  I will have to try the numbering thing, it does sound helpful.

 

As far as the explaining thing...sigh.  He has never been a storyteller, which in some ways I don't understand, because when he played with his toys when he was younger he was pretty imaginative.

 

When we sent him to half-day Zoocamps, or science camps at the museum, it would be like pulling teeth to get him to tell us anything about it.  I know that some of it was because he did not want to tell me anything about it.  The rest of the time he would say, "I don't remember."  You were just there, you don't remember anything that happened?  "No."  More specific questions such as:  Did you get to touch any animals?  What was your snack?  Which animals did you go see at the zoo?  Yeah, he could answer those usually.

 

Tonight he just came home from an activity where they watched a movie at the end.  I asked what the movie was about.  He said one word, "Aliens."  So I said that I meant what was the storyline about.  "I don't remember."  How can you not remember, you just watched it?   "I wasn't paying attention.  I was mostly picking through my popcorn to get the cheesy and normal bits out (and avoiding the caramel corn)."  Okay then.

 

Once in a great while he'll say something about something that happened with some kid in tae kwon do, or voluntarily retell one of his dreams, so it seems like that skill is in there somewhere.

 

(VENT ahead)

 

But reading aloud?  (And some of this extends to explaining as well.)  What a pain!  He CAN do it just fine, but he does not want to.  He'll do things purposefully to irritate me because he doesn't want to do it.  He'll read in a monotone, or read really fast, or read in a squeaky voice, etc.  I tell him, "Read it in a normal voice," and somehow that really offends him or something.  When we did FLL and got to sentences that were supposed to be read with expression?  Oh, he hated that.  He will not put any sort of inflection in his voice when reading a sentence that ends with a ! or a ? even though he has normal inflections and tones when he's just speaking.  He says, "I'm not going to be an actor," or "I don't want to pretend," or "Why do I have to read this out loud?"  He would just say them all as if they were statements, not questions or exclamations.  If I'm modeling how to explain something and have him repeat it back to me, he'll use a voice that basically sounds like I can't believe you're making me do this, so I'm going to talk in this deep. grumpy voice to let you know I don't like doing this.

 

Sometimes I'd take one sentence (usually a question or exclamation) and have him repeat it until he said it in a normal voice, without whining.  Or, well, I'd try.  I'd say it for him.  I'd tell him, if you just repeat it back the same way I said it, we can be done and move on.  Twenty tries later, still no go.  If he did actually do it almost right?  He'd say it and immediately cry.  I'd say, "See?  I knew you could do it!  Now if you had just done that 10 minutes ago right at the beginning, you would have avoided all this."

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it's important to be able to read or repeat something aloud and sound like at least a halfway-normal person while doing so.  It's especially irritating because I know he can do it - he's done it before - and that it's just his attitude creating this problem.

 

Unfortunately this extends to foreign languages as well.  We tried Spanish when he was younger.  Not wanting to say things in Spanish kinda defeats the purpose.  Fine.  We don't have to do Spanish.  But I am the one who decided to drop it because it was more trouble than it was worth.  So we do Latin.  He doesn't want to do the chants.  I'm at the point where I'm saying, "Tough.  You have to do it anyway.  You're not remembering your vocab very well without doing them.  You should be grateful that right now I am not making you do a language that you actually have to learn to converse in.  You will have to in high school though."  "I did do it!  I was just mumbling them."  Sorry kid, mumbling isn't going to work.  I have to be able to hear you to know that you are doing them.

 

Am I wrong here?  Please tell me if I'm wrong.

 

So one day I had enough.  I could not hear that he was doing his chants.  I mean, I was sitting 3 feet away from him and couldn't hear him saying anything.  So I took away not only screens, but I also took his favorite food away until he agreed to do them at a normal volume.  It did not take long for him to agree then!  I think I've finally found his "currency."  I hate that it's food, but screens alone don't always work, and it's not like he'll starve or anything without it.  He'll just sit there and be a giant grump if he can't have his screens, but it doesn't always motivate him to do anything either.

 

I told him later, after everyone had calmed down, that I didn't think I was asking him to do anything unreasonable.  This is what everyone does when practicing their vocab in a foreign language...at some point they have to say it out loud, because writing it and reading it isn't always enough.  It wasn't like I was asking him to do something that would cause him harm or pain.  It wasn't like I was asking him to do something beyond his ability.  I was just asking him to do normal things.  He seemed to understand and agree that it wasn't unreasonable.

 

Another somewhat-related example:  We did SOTW for history for four years, and you know how there's discussion questions in the activity book that they're supposed to answer in complete sentences?  Well even after four years of knowing that he's supposed to answer in a complete sentence, he would still give me fragments.  I say, "in a complete sentence," and only then would he give a complete sentence.  I guess he is looking for verbal shortcuts as well as written shortcuts.

 

So I guess all this is to show that he is resistant to saying almost anything aloud for school that is beyond the scope of a short answer.  I know that a LOT of it is attitude so I can't tell if there are other reasons as well.  The attitude just kinda casts a shadow on everything.

 

(Vent over.)

 

And as far as RightStart not being a match for him...well, if it's not, it's kinda too late anyway.  We've already done RightStart A-E and are now on geometry.  I love it, I think Rightstart is genius.  I think it generally works pretty well, he's done well with it (aside from the explaining part), he's good at mental math, and after making a couple of pit stops along the way (tried a bit of Singapore early on, and he's also completed 3A-4A in Beast Academy) he much prefers RightStart.  I also agree with what it says in Rightstart Geometry (and also in Life of Fred) that students at these ages need to start to learn how to read a math book and learn on their own.  He does not usually have that much trouble in Rightstart, it was definitely an off day, and a lot of the problem came from not reading the directions.

 

And, I know it seems that all I'm doing is complaining, but most of the rest of this week was fine.  I'd even say good.  He was mostly pleasant and compliant earlier in the week.  His brain was just off Friday morning.

 

Oh, and another good thing!  When we finally got back around to finishing that math lesson, he did at least show all his work without complaining and without me having to remind him.  So that's a plus.

 

Okay, I know I got off track there, but I wanted to say thanks to you, I now have a way to deal with multistep problems/directions if he's having a problem with them.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are so right.  I need to read this over and over to remind myself that it's okay that I am making him do these things.  

 

I've said to him many times, "You don't have to like it, you just have to do it."

 

Many personality types aren’t naturally detail oriented.  Reading instructions is detail oriented.  We all have to learn to do things that don’t come naturally. Not everyone is particularly spatially oriented, but we still expect them to be able to drive and park without hitting other things.  Not everyone is particularly verbally oriented, but we expect them to be able to articulate their thoughts and needs at developmentally appropriate levels.  Not everyone is mathy, but we have minimum standards for math whether or not students are inclined that way. 

My youngest hated phonics because she didn’t want to slow down and sound things out.  She wanted to look at the first letter and guess.  There was sobbing and crying about it on a daily basis for months and months when I made her slow down and read each practice sentence correctly before moving on. Oh well.  Like it or not, she still had to sound things out. She’s an excellent reader now. She hates reading directions to me and paraphrasing them.  Oh well.  There are things in life we all have to do that we don’t want to do. The nice thing about being homeschooled is you can let those emotions out without being publicly shamed by other kids.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I showed mine the part of the video in which SWB talks about WWS, and she specifically says that first the student will say ''I don't know what to do,'' then you have them read it aloud and they say ''Oh! Now I get it.'' He knew her name because it's on some of our books, and hearing someone who wasn't me say what I'd said and say that it's an entirely typical thing made him feel better. Not that I don't still get some resistance when he's already worked about something, but it's been better.

 

 

I remember that video.  I can't remember if I showed him that.  I will have to look it up again.  It might not work as well for him, but it's worth a try.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ellyndria, I just wanted to say that I can really, really relate. I am guessing your ds is about 10 or 11...because my second child is 10.5 and I was literally coming here to post my own vent about very similar behavior and I was ruminating that I have been through this once before why am I struggling with this. My oldest actually sounds just like your ds- he is a total perfectionist! Teaching him to read was HARD (ok nightmareish) because he didn't want to sound anything out. As time went on I realised he does not like to do ANYTHING unless he can do it right, if he even thinks he doesn't know how to spell a word he has to ask me or look it up before writing it down.

 

Now you would think all of that would make him an expert in reading the instructions FIRST nope, not so much. HE drove me nutty so much so that we even tried K12 for part of 5th grade, but the thing that actually worked was Homeschool Mom in AZ's advice. She responded very similarly to my own post and her words and ideas were EXACTLY what we needed (ymmv each child is unique). It wasn't a magic bullet, there was a lot of work having him read the instructions and paraphrase them (LOVE MerryatHope's ideas), but it was worth it. I now have a 12.5-year-old who can work independently and who is A LOT less frustrated!

 

And thanks for posting this because it was exactly the information I need to rehear! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

(VENT ahead)

...

(Vent over.)

 

Sigh.  My kid.  Still, at 14.  We have many great days, but the bad ones ... wow.

 

I do think the fact that it was Friday matters, at least somewhat.  My kid's brain is often fried by then, no matter how the rest of the week went.  I try to keep Fridays relatively light on the stuff that tends to cause battles.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ellyndria, I just wanted to say that I can really, really relate. I am guessing your ds is about 10 or 11...because my second child is 10.5 and I 

 

 

 

And thanks for posting this because it was exactly the information I need to rehear! 

 

Oh my goodness, yes, DS is 10.5 too as of a few days ago!

 

Thanks for the perspective and glad my problems could be of help. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sigh.  My kid.  Still, at 14.  We have many great days, but the bad ones ... wow.

 

I do think the fact that it was Friday matters, at least somewhat.  My kid's brain is often fried by then, no matter how the rest of the week went.  I try to keep Fridays relatively light on the stuff that tends to cause battles.

 

 

Yeah, maybe Friday was part of it.  Today was a LOT better.  He even did a bit of reading aloud without too much complaining.  (I told him that my voice needed a break.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...