What reading level is this, in your opinion?

[luuknam]

What is the lowest grade in which you would expect the average student to be able to read and comprehend the following without too insanely much trouble:

 

"Borrowers must adhere to Library policy and procedures. Individuals
are expected to return library materials on time and in good
condition to avoid fines and possible referral to a collection agency
which results in an additional fee. The Library is not responsible for
any damages to electronic equipment incurred during the use of Library
materials.

By signing this application, I accept responsibility for all materials
and computer usage associated with my library card. This includes
fines and/or fees incurred for overdue, lost, damaged or stolen items.
I will immediately notify the Library if there is a change in name,
address, e-mail address, telephone number or loss/theft of this card."

 

Just curious... this seems to me like an example of a case where the readability score given by one of those calculators is a ways off from what the 'real' readability is, but I could be wrong, so I'd like to crowdsource a human reading level calculator. I'll post what the readability calculator said later. Please give your opinion before reading others' opinions and before plugging it into a calculator yourself. :)

 

Thanks in advance!

[luuknam]

In case anyone is wondering, this is the text on the application for a children's library card right above the spot where the child must sign (there is more text elsewhere where the parent has to sign).

[mom2bee]

Depends on the vocabulary of the reader. I'd say 4th-6th grade as a range. I voted 5th.

[MerryAtHope]

What is the lowest grade in which you would expect the average student to be able to read and comprehend the following without too insanely much trouble:

 

"Borrowers must adhere to Library policy and procedures. Individuals

are expected to return library materials on time and in good

condition to avoid fines and possible referral to a collection agency

which results in an additional fee. The Library is not responsible for

any damages to electronic equipment incurred during the use of Library

materials.

 

By signing this application, I accept responsibility for all materials

and computer usage associated with my library card. This includes

fines and/or fees incurred for overdue, lost, damaged or stolen items.

I will immediately notify the Library if there is a change in name,

address, e-mail address, telephone number or loss/theft of this card."

 

Just curious... this seems to me like an example of a case where the readability score given by one of those calculators is a ways off from what the 'real' readability is, but I could be wrong, so I'd like to crowdsource a human reading level calculator. I'll post what the readability calculator said later. Please give your opinion before reading others' opinions and before plugging it into a calculator yourself. :)

 

Thanks in advance!

Read and comprehend to some level, I'd say 5th or 6th grade. Really comprehend, more like 8th. But seriously, this should be something the parent signs. Who talks about turning a kid into a collection agency? That's pretty ridiculous. They should tell parents that by letting their kids have a library card, they are assuming all responsibility including....all that verbiage. 

[luuknam]

And, of course, everybody is welcome to have their kids read it and ask some quick comprehension questions and post their results (which are likely completely unrelated to what the *average* whatever-grader comprehends/what the reading level of this text is).

[Kerileanne99]

This is almost verbatim what was on my dd5's application for a library card. She is a bit outside the norm, but the librarian was shocked when dd read it aloud and answered questions on what it meant. The librarian said they expected parents to read and explain up to age 12, and after that the kids were expected to do it.

[EKS]

I would think that a 6th grader could read the words, but I would not necessarily expect a person with less than an adult maturity level to truly understand the meaning.  If that makes any sense.

 

[MerryAtHope]

Ha! For kicks, I ran it through the Flesch-Kincaid check in MS Word, and it says it's grade 13.7! (I think the long sentences bump the grade level up in that rating system...still!)

[Arcadia]

My kids just interpret it as they have to pay up if they lose or damage the library materials that they borrow.  So it is better to use mommy's or daddy's card :lol:

They could read and interpret it correctly a few years ago when they get their first library card. 

 

This is almost verbatim what was on my dd5's application for a library card.

 

Same here.

 

ETA:

Kids know about collection agency from ABC7News "7 on your side"

[luuknam]

I would think that a 6th grader could read the words, but I would not necessarily expect a person with less than an adult maturity level to truly understand the meaning.  If that makes any sense.

 

Yes and no. I don't think you have to have an adult maturity level to understand that they mean that if you don't return the books or return them damaged that they'll make you pay. It might take an adult maturity level to understand the impact on you of them possibly involving a collection agency. Is that what you mean?

[luuknam]

Ha! For kicks, I ran it through the Flesch-Kincaid check in MS Word, and it says it's grade 13.7! (I think the long sentences bump the grade level up in that rating system...still!)

 

Huh. I used https://readability-score.com/and their Flesch-Kincaid is 'only' 13.4. Either way, it seemed crazy high. Without giving it too much thought, I ballparked it at an 8th grade reading level.

 

From https://readability-score.com/ :

Reading Ease

A higher score indicates easier readability; scores usually range

between 0 and 100.

 

Readability Formula Score

Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease 32.3

 

Grade levels:

Readability Formula      Grade

Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 13.4

Gunning-Fog Score 16.8

Coleman-Liau Index 14.4

SMOG Index 13.1

Automated Readability Index 12

Average Grade Level 13.9

[EKS]

Yes and no. I don't think you have to have an adult maturity level to understand that they mean that if you don't return the books or return them damaged that they'll make you pay. It might take an adult maturity level to understand the impact on you of them possibly involving a collection agency. Is that what you mean?

 

Yes.  And just to point out, the way you put it ("if you don't return the books or return them damaged that they'll make you pay") is not as difficult to understand as what is actually written.

 

I know that libraries are trying to encourage children to read, but I don't think it is appropriate to give a library card to a child who is not able to understand their legalese and doesn't have the means to pay a fine.

[luuknam]

This is almost verbatim what was on my dd5's application for a library card. She is a bit outside the norm, but the librarian was shocked when dd read it aloud and answered questions on what it meant. The librarian said they expected parents to read and explain up to age 12, and after that the kids were expected to do it.

 

It came from 4.75yo Broccoli's library card application. I asked him if he wanted to sign, he said 'no', I told him "good, don't ever sign a contract without reading it first", and then he read it. He needed help with some of the words (though not that many), and I think his comprehension was close to zero (I think he understands most of the words, but combined into sentences like that, with other words he doesn't understand thrown in... not so much). He happily signed it after reading it though (we'll have to have the conversation about needing to *understand* what you're signing later, but it doesn't really matter... I don't think they'll send a collection agency to *him*, since I had to sign it (plus a bunch more stuff) too).

[luuknam]

Yes.  And just to point out, the way you put it ("if you don't return the books or return them damaged that they'll make you pay") is not as difficult to understand as what is actually written.

 

I know that libraries are trying to encourage children to read, but I don't think it is appropriate to give a library card to a child who is not able to understand their legalese and doesn't have the means to pay a fine.

 

He needed a children's library card to use the computers in the kids' area. I really think it's not that big a deal. Kids can't legally enter into contracts anyway, afaik.

[luuknam]

Ha! For kicks, I ran it through the Flesch-Kincaid check in MS Word, and it says it's grade 13.7! (I think the long sentences bump the grade level up in that rating system...still!)

 

Did you vote according to that? I really wanted votes to just be based on people's personal opinions, not based on what Flesch-Kincaid says. (someone voted 13th grade... curious to know if that was someone's real opinion or just based on that score)

[EKS]

He needed a children's library card to use the computers in the kids' area. I really think it's not that big a deal. Kids can't legally enter into contracts anyway, afaik.

 

If they can't legally enter into contracts, why have them sign one?

[EKS]

It came from 4.75yo Broccoli's library card application. I asked him if he wanted to sign, he said 'no', I told him "good, don't ever sign a contract without reading it first", and then he read it. He needed help with some of the words (though not that many), and I think his comprehension was close to zero (I think he understands most of the words, but combined into sentences like that, with other words he doesn't understand thrown in... not so much). He happily signed it after reading it though (we'll have to have the conversation about needing to *understand* what you're signing later, but it doesn't really matter... I don't think they'll send a collection agency to *him*, since I had to sign it (plus a bunch more stuff) too).

 

This is the type of thing that you need to have life experience for in order to understand.

[luuknam]

If they can't legally enter into contracts, why have them sign one?

 

Presumably to make them feel like they have some level of responsibility. Just because his signature won't hold up in court, doesn't mean that it might not have some sort of positive effect on the number of times kids return books/not damage books.

 

[EKS]

Presumably to make them feel like they have some level of responsibility. Just because his signature won't hold up in court, doesn't mean that it might not have some sort of positive effect on the number of times kids return books/not damage books.

 

 

But why not translate the legalese into kid friendly language?

[73349]

I think they should offer a kids' version:

 

I promise to follow the library rules. I will return books on time and not damage them. I know I have to pay for anything I don't bring back on time or in good shape, no matter why. I will tell the librarian right away if I move, or if I lose this card.

[EKS]

I think they should offer a kids' version:

 

I promise to follow the library rules. I will return books on time and not damage them. I know I have to pay for anything I don't bring back on time or in good shape, no matter why. I will tell the librarian right away if I move, or if I lose this card.

 

This is perfect!

[JenneinCA]

I voted for 9th grade. The reason is the word 'adhere' in the first sentence. I don't think many kids are familiar with the word until then.

[kiwik]

It is easier to understand than the 'digital citizen' agreement ds6 had to sign. I also had to sign it to say he wouldn't misuse school computers. I am not there for heavens sake.

 

I would say my 8 year old would understand it except the collections bit but i put sixth grade.

[SKL]

When I was a kid (in primary school), you went to the library (without your parent) and asked for a library card, and they gave you one.  No parent signatures, no collection agencies.  I personally think that is the better arrangement.

 

My kid was referred to a collection agency at age 7.  Why?  Because someone took out a card in her name at a library I have never taken her to.  That someone returned some materials late and incurred a $15 fee which was unpaid.  I told them the kid was 7yo and we never borrowed those materials or went to that library, but they said it would stay on her credit record until she is 18 and then they would pursue collection again.  Seriously.

[SKL]

I voted 4th grade, because I think both of my 8yos could get most of it if they were motivated to try.  It isn't easy, but by the end of 4th I would think the average kid should be able to figure it out.

 

The only word I thought was a little elusive to a kid was "adhere," though they have probably heard it at some point.

[Junie]

I voted for 10th grade.  Most of my dc would have heard the Charlie Brown teacher voice going off in their little noggins.  Wha Wha Wha Wha Wha!

[MerryAtHope]

Did you vote according to that? I really wanted votes to just be based on people's personal opinions, not based on what Flesch-Kincaid says. (someone voted 13th grade... curious to know if that was someone's real opinion or just based on that score)

 

No, when I originally posted, the poll wasn't live yet. I'll vote now!

[eternallytired]

Well, I was originally going to vote for 5th grade because I thought, "I could've figured that out by fourth, so 5th seems like a safe guess."  And then I remembered that I used to teach Language Arts to 8th graders, and only about the top 10% of them would have been able to figure this out.  So I decided that maybe by 10th they'd have more vocabulary exposure...but I still think it likely that a large percentage of the adult population probably just gets the general gist of this form and couldn't come close to actually defining at least a few of the words in it.  It is, after all, written by book-lovers. ;-)

[lanabug]

I think my 4th grader would be able to decode and read all those words, but I don't think she'd grasp the meaning.  I would expect an 8th grader to understand most of it.

 

Lana

[Kiara.I]

The only word I thought was a little elusive to a kid was "adhere," though they have probably heard it at some point.

 

Most kids aren't going to be familiar with "incur" either, at least in my experience. 

I ran it past my 6- and 8-year olds, and they understood less of it than I expected.

[IsabelC]

Although many younger children could *read* the words, I wouldn't expect the average elementary kid to actually understand it fully, for example to know what referral to a collection agency means, and that this is a moderately serious consequence. My kids don't sign many things, but whenever they do, I go over the meaning first, in an attempt to train them to read and understand before signing. (Similarly, if we're at the doctor or dentist and something needs to be done, I practice informed consent by checking their understanding before eliciting their agreement.)

[Elfknitter.#]

I think they should offer a kids' version:

 

I promise to follow the library rules. I will return books on time and not damage them. I know I have to pay for anything I don't bring back on time or in good shape, no matter why. I will tell the librarian right away if I move, or if I lose this card.

And: "I will not let anyone else use my card to check out books or get on the internet stations because that is against library rules."

[Elfknitter.#]

When I was a kid (in primary school), you went to the library (without your parent) and asked for a library card, and they gave you one. No parent signatures, no collection agencies. I personally think that is the better arrangement.

 

<snip>

That must be something your local library did. My mom had to fill out and be available for my card application to be processed. Or maybe it's a time thing. I got my first public library card back in 1982. I could sign my name, but they wanted a parent to initial responsibility.

 

Today, most libraries in my area will create cards only for those children with applications and a parent available. Too much being burned by adults getting cards for infants, only to have those infants get to school aged with $50, $100, and in excessive cases, $200 of fines thanks to mom and dad checking out materials that are very late or never returned.

[Kerileanne99]

That must be something your local library did. My mom had to fill out and be available for my card application to be processed. Or maybe it's a time thing. I got my first public library card back in 1982. I could sign my name, but they wanted a parent to initial responsibility.

 

Today, most libraries in my area will create cards only for those children with applications and a parent available. Too much being burned by adults getting cards for infants, only to have those infants get to school aged with $50, $100, and in excessive cases, $200 of fines thanks to mom and dad checking out materials that are very late or never returned.

This is what our librarian told us as well. In fact, I took dd5 in to get her library card for her birthday because she had been wanting her own for quite a while. She was sooo disappointed when she learned she couldn't even walk out with one. They mail them to the physical address on your utility bill as an extra safety measure.

[luuknam]

This is what our librarian told us as well. In fact, I took dd5 in to get her library card for her birthday because she had been wanting her own for quite a while. She was sooo disappointed when she learned she couldn't even walk out with one. They mail them to the physical address on your utility bill as an extra safety measure.

 

I only had to show my ID with our current address - he did get the physical card right away. For my own library card, I had to show my ID with current address plus a utility bill or w/e.

 

I wonder if the size of the library system and their checkout policies matter when it comes to how rigorous their card application process is. Our system allows you to check out 50 items per card, so you could cause a major expense to the library if you checked out 50 items and never returned them... it wouldn't be that hard for that expense to be over $1000.  Whereas the library I was a member of as a kid allowed you to check out 5 items. The risk to the library allowing 5 items checked out at a time vs 50 items checked out a time is much smaller. And I suspect larger systems are more likely to have more legalese and serious procedures than small-town libraries that are not in a larger system.

 

The legalese btw is pretty easy as far as legalese is concerned, imo (my letter-of-intent had more complicated legalese, lol - "pursuant section blah-de-blah of blah-de-blah" etc). But I agree that for the part the kids sign they should put a kid-friendly version and leave the legalese for the part the parent signs.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'd say DD would have understood it easily in 5th grade but she's a lover of words so I chose 6th.

 

Seriously, we do Vocab for fun around here.

[LaughingCat]

When I was a kid (in primary school), you went to the library (without your parent) and asked for a library card, and they gave you one.  No parent signatures, no collection agencies.  I personally think that is the better arrangement.

 

My kid was referred to a collection agency at age 7.  Why?  Because someone took out a card in her name at a library I have never taken her to.  That someone returned some materials late and incurred a $15 fee which was unpaid.  I told them the kid was 7yo and we never borrowed those materials or went to that library, but they said it would stay on her credit record until she is 18 and then they would pursue collection again.  Seriously.

Tell them they need to prove it's her.  This is true for any debt -- they have to be able to provide proof it is your (your DC's) debt.   They don't get to just stiff you with other people's debts because you have the right name.    

[Reefgazer]

I voted 10th grade.  My kids could have understood that wording very young, as can most kids of parents on here, I suspect.  However, I was thinking of the entire range of students in 10th grade and I was thinking there were some that would struggle with that wording even in 8th or 9th grade.

[SKL]

I was going by what my kids' vocabulary workbooks contain.  Nearly all of those words seem within the range of what kids learn by the end of 4th grade, if the materials I have are realistic.  (These are not gifted materials.)

 

I think I will have my kids try reading that later just so test my theory.  Not sure if that will prove anything.  Reading never came easy to my eldest, yet she somehow scores well on reading tests.

[Mom22ns]

According to Readability:

 

Readability Formula Grade Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 13.4 Gunning-Fog Score 16.8 Coleman-Liau Index 14.4 SMOG Index 13.1 Automated Readability Index 12 Average Grade Level

13.9

 

So any high school graduate should be able to read the children's library card application  :svengo:

[HomeschoolingHearts&Minds]

I voted 6th---my 6th grader could understand it fine (although she admitted she doesn't know much about collection agencies ;) ); my 4th grader could read the words and get the gist of it, but he was scratching his head a bit.

 

A funny aside:  he said the last sentence in the 1st paragraph made him envision someone throwing a book at a computer. :lol:

[SKL]

Maybe my kids know about collection agencies because I'm always complaining about collection calls.  There is this random guy who has given his creditors my phone number.  I get calls about his bills rather frequently.  :/

[luuknam]

According to Readability:

 

Readability Formula Grade Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 13.4 Gunning-Fog Score 16.8 Coleman-Liau Index 14.4 SMOG Index 13.1 Automated Readability Index 12 Average Grade Level

13.9

 

So any high school graduate should be able to read the children's library card application  :svengo:

 

Um, no. 13.9 (the average mentioned there) is the end of freshman year in college. So, if you finish freshman year in college, you should have the reading level required to read the children's library card application (well, at least the part the kids have to sign). And according to Gunning-Fog, you should pick about pick up your BA or BS before attempting to read it (actually, that one seems to be about easily reading it on first read-through or something, so you need a college degree to be able to find it easy to read through without re-reading parts). I did find it easy to read-through without re-reading, but then and again, my grade level is about 16.5... 13 credit hours short of college graduation.

 

ETA: I guess on the bright side, kids who regularly use their library cards probably have a higher reading level than their age/grade level suggests. Too bad that you'd have to get that card first though.

 

ETA2: And, calculators that just take things like word length etc aren't necessarily going to be very accurate. It seems that most people think that by 8th grade the average student should be able to read (and understand) this (if not sooner), and that almost everybody thinks this is within the realm of what 10th graders can do.

[Little Women]

There is a difference in my mind between "can" and "ought to be able to."    It should be understandable by an 8th grader, but many adults cannot read and understand that, so I put 10th grade.    However, it's worded like a legal contract, which a child can't legally sign anyways!

[Farrar]

I voted fifth because I think most kids that age could read and get the gist of it, but I didn't think most fifth graders would really understand all elements of it. Honestly, some of the vocab in there was just silly if they know that children and lower level readers will need to sign. If you know a lot of kids will be signing it, why phrase it all that way unless the purpose is to obscure what they're really doing.

[Peaceful Isle]

I would say the elementary child could sign it, but the parent would need to either be there and agree and / or sign along with the child. My 4th grader would not understand all that is in that statement. My sixth grader might understand most , except the collection agency and such. My 8th grader would understand it all. 

 

My kids would get the general idea, you better take care of and return all the book, cds and items in the condition you got them in, :) 

[kirstenhill]

I voted 6th grade. My DD might have been able to understand it a year or two ago, but she is a great reader. She said the only word she didn't know was "incur". And she thought the collection agency might be collecting the lost books, not money. ;-). She completely understood the "point" of the text that you have to take care of your books, and you will pay money if you don't take care of them or lose them.

[kateingr]

I think they should offer a kids' version:

 

I promise to follow the library rules. I will return books on time and not damage them. I know I have to pay for anything I don't bring back on time or in good shape, no matter why. I will tell the librarian right away if I move, or if I lose this card.

My daughter for her first card last week, and this is exactly what our system does for the kids' form. She felt very "official" printing her name on the line---but then they gave us the sheet to take home. Apparently, only the form that I signed counted.

[Kathryn]

I voted sixth. My new fourth grader just did it with no problems besides not knowing what a collection agency was. But, he was able to summarize each sentence in his own words. He's consistently been a couple of grade levels ahead in reading.

[Mrs. B]

I voted 9th for the general "average" public.

 

These are what the votes would be for the following populations (not including gifted students or language delayed students):

 

I would vote 11th-12th for students who either just go to school because they have to or are victims of a poor education system. These would include students who don't read much outside of instructions in the school lessons or ones who read just enough to get a passing grade.

 

If I were voting based on students who receive high literature focused educations (such as classical), I would vote in the 4th-6th grade range as average full comprehension. Maybe 2nd-4th grade for readability.