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Math Sequence, SAT Subject Test….


omd21
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Hello ladies,

 

DD12 is done with AOPS Intro to Algebra book. She has also done some light geometry with me but no formal Geometry. She's taking the SAT in October.

 

I'm undecided on whether we should do Number Theory & Counting and Probability now or go on to the AOPS Geometry book. She's really solid on the Intro to Algebra concepts. Are there any pros and cons on choosing one or the other?

 

Also, at what point does she take an SAT subject test and which one?

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

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SAT 2/Subject Test Strategy   I think the current wisdom is to take Math 2 following precalc.

 

As for the regular SAT this fall, what to do may depend on why she is taking the SAT.  With only having had Intro to Alg, I would anticipate that she won't be in a position to maximize her scoring potential yet.

 

IIRC, the new SAT starts in March and apparently has fewer geometry questions than the old test.

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SAT Math 2 is best after (or depending on the student, concurrently) with precalculus.

 

SAT Math 1 is best after geometry and algebra 2 if possible.

 

If shooting for SAT Math 2, I believe you won't need to take Math 1.

 

ETA: In my research, most kids on a STEM direction take Math 2.

 

HTH.

She's a STEM kid, so skip the SAT 1 and just wait until she's done with Precal, then take the SAT 2.

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SAT 2/Subject Test Strategy   I think the current wisdom is to take Math 2 following precalc.

 

As for the regular SAT this fall, what to do may depend on why she is taking the SAT.  With only having had Intro to Alg, I would anticipate that she won't be in a position to maximize her scoring potential yet.

 

IIRC, the new SAT starts in March and apparently has fewer geometry questions than the old test.

 

She's taking it because she wants to continue on with Duke TIP and CTY and possibly attend one of their summer camps. I'm letting her take it for validation and as qualification measure if we need to enroll her in a university course or two down the road.

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This is going to be way more information than the OP wants but maybe it will help someone. I know that a top score isn't essential for everyone but for my dd it probably is so....

 

My dc's did the Math Subject exams in May so I have spent quite a bit of time learning about them lately. They were our first subject exam experience. Both did very well with identical scores. We did use review books (Barrons and Princeton). Both discovered topics they hadn't covered in enough detail with the books even though they had just reviewed for successful AMC competitions by most standards. Both said they probably didn't need quite everything they prepared for but impossible to forcast. We did both exams because we couldn't decide after having learned the hard way that it is easier to get to Aimie via AMC 12. Preparing for both at once was relatively easy. The thought was all scores wouldn't have to be reported. Ds had just completed precalc so we were unsure about Math 2.

 

Math I sounds easier, algebra and geometry, but for a top score you need to be pretty close to perfect, normally perfect. The score drops rapidly down from 800. College Board has a pdf which I can't link showing the rankings. An 800 on Math 1 puts you in the 99 percentile but on Math II you are only in the 81 percentile. Obviously Math I is harder scorewise. My dc's agreed that it felt harder, more focused. The Math I exam is apparently preferred by some top programs like Cal Tech which specifies it as a requirement. A friend whose son is applying to several top engineering schools told me that if they specified it seemed to be Math 1.

 

ETA....Thanks to 8 I now know My Cal Tech info is wrong. I suspect the other schools wanting Math I is too. That is what I get for posting second hand knowledge. I just hope her son did Math 2 also.

 

Math II is broader in scope and adds in pretty much everything except Calculus. You can miss one and still get the top score sometimes, but compared to other subject exams you still need to be pretty accurate. The score scale falls more gently than Math I, you can miss a few and still be over 700. I know MIT accepts either subject exam.

 

At 12 I would have her do the math competitions like Mathcounts and the AMC if possible. AMC 10 is Algebra and Geometry, AMC 12 is through precalc. Studying for those is good practice for subject exams. If she can't actually participate in the actual exams maybe do an old one for the experience occasionally. My dc's enjoy those type of problems, the AoPS website has a test bank.

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We're in a similar place math-wise and also in taking the SAT this fall before it changes, and the big thing I'm finding that I need to have DD practice a bit is that AOPS teaches deep thinking and taking time to really puzzle it out, and the SAT rewards speed. So, we're spending some time on finding quick problems that she can do easily and doing them first, and leaving the ones that require skills she hasn't formally had yet (some of the more advanced algebra and a good chunk of geometry) for the end if she has time remaining. She's also choosing to spend some time with Geometry on Khan Academy and with the books we have on hand, but to wait to start AOPS Intro to Geometry until after the test. 

 

We're also doing MathCounts and AMC practice pages just because she likes those kind of problems, and a quick run through geometry really isn't making her brain stretch and work the way AoPS does, and she loves that sort of work. Arthur Benjamin's new book coming out doesn't hurt, either :).

 

 

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This is going to be way more information than the OP wants but maybe it will help someone. I know that a top score isn't essential for everyone but for my dd it probably is so....

 

My dc's did the Math Subject exams in May so I have spent quite a bit of time learning about them lately. They were our first subject exam experience. Both did very well with identical scores. We did use review books (Barrons and Princeton). Both discovered topics they hadn't covered in enough detail with the books even though they had just reviewed for successful AMC competitions by most standards. Both said they probably didn't need quite everything they prepared for but impossible to forcast. We did both exams because we couldn't decide after having learned the hard way that it is easier to get to Aimie via AMC 12. Preparing for both at once was relatively easy. The thought was all scores wouldn't have to be reported. Ds had just completed precalc so we were unsure about Math 2.

 

Math I sounds easier, algebra and geometry, but for a top score you need to be pretty close to perfect, normally perfect. The score drops rapidly down from 800. College Board has a pdf which I can't link showing the rankings. An 800 on Math 1 puts you in the 99 percentile but on Math II you are only in the 81 percentile. Obviously Math I is harder scorewise. My dc's agreed that it felt harder, more focused. The Math I exam is apparently preferred by some top programs like Cal Tech which specifies it as a requirement. A friend whose son is applying to several top engineering schools told me that if they specified it seemed to be Math 1.

 

Math II is broader in scope and adds in pretty much everything except Calculus. You can miss one and still get the top score sometimes, but compared to other subject exams you still need to be pretty accurate. The score scale falls more gently than Math I, you can miss a few and still be over 700. I know MIT accepts either subject exam.

 

At 12 I would have her do the math competitions like Mathcounts and the AMC if possible. AMC 10 is Algebra and Geometry, AMC 12 is through precalc. Studying for those is good practice for subject exams. If she can't actually participate in the actual exams maybe do an old one for the experience occasionally. My dc's enjoy those type of problems, the AoPS website has a test bank.

 

 

Just correcting the above.  Cal Tech actually requires the Math 2.  Below are their general admission requirements:

  • https://www.admissions.caltech.edu/content/how-apply-first-year-applicant
  • SAT with writing or ACT with writing
  • SAT Subject Test in Mathematics Level 2
  • 1 SAT science subject test: biology (ecological), biology (molecular), chemistry, or physics
  • 1 math or science teacher evaluation
  • 1 humanities or social sciences teacher evaluation
  • Secondary School Report
  • Academic transcripts

Most kids wanting to attend a top STEM school are going to take the 2 which is why the percentile curve is so brutal.  The top math students are taking it.  The percentile curve of the math 1 is actually easier.  It is the scoring that is more forgiving in the 2.

Curiously, the Math I has the more forgiving percentile scale, while the Math II has a more forgiving score scale.  An example:  To get an 800 on the Math I, you cannot miss any questions, and you would be in the 99+ percentile (meaning you scored better than 99% of students taking the test across the country).  On the Math II, you can typically skip 3-5 questions and still score an 800, yet you would still only be in the 88th percentile.  This means that roughly 12% of students taking the Math 2 score an 800.  Also, keep in mind that it is significantly tougher to get the same amount of questions correct on the Math I.

 

 

(You can read more about the differences at http://blog.markseducation.com/2012/05/math-i-vs-math-ii.html )

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This is going to be way more information than the OP wants but maybe it will help someone…

 

At 12 I would have her do the math competitions like Mathcounts and the AMC if possible. AMC 10 is Algebra and Geometry, AMC 12 is through precalc. Studying for those is good practice for subject exams. If she can't actually participate in the actual exams maybe do an old one for the experience occasionally. My dc's enjoy those type of problems, the AoPS website has a test bank.

This is great! Thank you for the info, it will be easy to find down the road when she's ready for the SAT subject test.

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We're in a similar place math-wise and also in taking the SAT this fall before it changes, and the big thing I'm finding that I need to have DD practice a bit is that AOPS teaches deep thinking and taking time to really puzzle it out, and the SAT rewards speed.

 

 

Yes, this! We had to adapt to speed and efficiency as well.

 

Btw I think about your DD often, since we recently moved a block away from a fantastic reptile store and have been spending quite a bit of time there. It's fun to handle the different snakes! DD7 is now the proud owner of a harlequin crested gecko. :) 

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Just correcting the above. Cal Tech actually requires the Math 2. Below are their general admission requirements:

  • https://www.admissions.caltech.edu/content/how-apply-first-year-applicant
  • SAT with writing or ACT with writing
  • SAT Subject Test in Mathematics Level 2
  • 1 SAT science subject test: biology (ecological), biology (molecular), chemistry, or physics
  • 1 math or science teacher evaluation
  • 1 humanities or social sciences teacher evaluation
  • Secondary School Report
  • Academic transcripts
Most kids wanting to attend a top STEM school are going to take the 2 which is why the percentile curve is so brutal. The top math students are taking it. The percentile curve of the math 1 is actually easier. It is the scoring that is more forgiving in the 2.

 

(You can read more about the differences at http://blog.markseducation.com/2012/05/math-i-vs-math-ii.html )

 

Thanks for correcting my error. I will admit the Math I at Cal Tech confused me when I heard of it and since. I had never looked it up it was per friend who initially explained these exams to me. We aren't doing any US applications so it was a matter of curiosity on my part. That's what I get for posting second hand knowledge. ;) I had came to the conclusion they wanted the ability to do the exam cleanly (any exam)....at the same time both mine did it first go.

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This is going to be way more information than the OP wants but maybe it will help someone.

 

 We did both exams because we couldn't decide after having learned the hard way that it is easier to get to Aimie via AMC 12. 

 

 

Like me?

 

Do you really think it's easier to qualify for the AIME via the AMC12 than the AMC 10?  My dd is in 9th grade, and is taking AoPS intermediate algebra, and now I'm wondering if she should take the AMC12 this year, or maybe take both?  

 

 

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Boy I'm glad I don't have to take these tests. When I clicked on a link above to peruse the practice materials, I learned I would need a calculator which I don't have, I considered some of the reading comprehension questions entirely a matter of opinion and fairly undecidable, and the math question #8. on page 16, seemed to me completely wrong.  I.e. the graphs of the functions f(x) = x-3 and g(x) = (x^2-9)/(x-3) have none of those properties.  Probably a typo and g(x) should have been (x^2-9)/(x+3), but I would think that would have been caught before now.  Then the answer would have been (E).  Of course I am often wrong myself, but I thought about this twice.  Please correct me if it is my error.  But maybe too much effort was spent by the booklet editor choosing photos of people smiling and running and jumping, instead of having the content checked for accuracy.  Brave new world.  Good luck in it.

 

This may not be relevant, but I am trying to suggest that college professors like me have little respect for whatever these tests are measuring, and I hope they do not play a huge role in admission decisions.  On the other hand maybe this is why my students in college math classes had so little clue as to how to succeed.  This is kind of a catch 22 for those of you navigating these waters, if admissions is based on these things, while college success is more related to deeper understanding, such as obtained by working through AOPS courses.

 

On the topic of quick short answer responses versus lengthy thoughtful investigations, I would suggest also that spending time in advance in lengthy thoughtful investigations increases ones speed at answering short timed questions.  I.e. things you have spent a long time thinking through come back to you more quickly on a test.  So I believe that deep AOPS courses are good preparation even for the sort of shallow timed questions found on an SAT test.  Of course some practice at working quickly on such questions is also advised.  So I recommend spending the most time in careful, thoughtful study, and then spending some time tuning up for a specific test.

 

It has been over 50 years, but my own preparation was to take all the solid math classes available, then participate in competitive math team contests regularly.  Afterwards these SAT math tests, subject as well as quantitative, were a walk in the park; (and we only took them once).  Of course the fact that calculators are now recommended or required is a change, and I cannot think of any mathematical reason for this.  I never allowed calculators in my college math classes.  So you have to be guided by todays conditions, but I still want to tilt on the side of learning the content, augmented by practicing the format.

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Like me?

 

Do you really think it's easier to qualify for the AIME via the AMC12 than the AMC 10? My dd is in 9th grade, and is taking AoPS intermediate algebra, and now I'm wondering if she should take the AMC12 this year, or maybe take both?

I think it depends partly on the dc but once again a higher score is needed to get to the aime via the amc10. I can't remember the numbers but the point difference for actually qualifying is significant between the exams. When I got the phone call that dd had made it to the aime, the test coordinator told me it was too bad my ds hadn't taken the amc12 too. Apparently it is common to take amc10 on the first date and amc12 on the second. When we looked all the information over I had to agree that taking both exams would have given my son a higher probability of reaching aime. I think your daughter should try some old amc12's and look at the scoring and qualifying points. Make your decision from that. In my son's cas he had completed Pre Calc and was able to do as well as his sister in practice. Who knows about the actual.....next year. ;)

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