Math disability?

[mamabear2three]

Could I be on the right path or am I crazy?

 

First, regarding yesterday's discussion on behavior vs sensory vs adhd and math - she does have anxiety over math. When motivation is not an issue, and she's eager and willing to start (I took those variables away today with a particularly inciting incentive), the inability to focus/be still is huge: I stopped her mid bounce, had her take a couple deep breaths, sit down and still and started quizzing her on other subjects - name the parts of speech we have learned - give me an example of each. Tell me the three parts of the brain we have studied (prefrontal cortex, amygdala and hyppocampus), tell me what each part does... etc. She sat mostly still, was quick to answer and focused - the way I see her complete her other subjects. 

 

So I figured out the surface issue is subtraction. She just isn't successful at that. So I pulled some old lessons on subtraction out and broke the steps down and got the abacus out, etc. She did great with the review! But I noticed that she struggles with number sense (holding and manipulating numbers in her head, or on paper), even though the concepts are easy. I've tried everything - I've spent hours searching for more ideas in the archives, and the math facts just don't stick. She still has to stop and think for her fact families that make up 10. She still reverses numbers (writes them backward so 9 looks like p - and does this with 2, 6,7,9 and sometimes 4, and 5).  

 

Am I pulling at straws or could this be a math disability separate from the issue of adhd?

[wapiti]

She still has to stop and think for her fact families that make up 10. She still reverses numbers (writes them backward so 9 looks like p - and does this with 2, 6,7,9 and sometimes 4, and 5). 

 

How old is your student?  Have you ruled out vision issues?

[mamabear2three]

she's seven and a half, and had a normal eye exam last fall. She doesn't reverse any of her letters and has no problems reading or writing and writes very neatly.

[seema]

we had psychoeducational testing to sort out why my dd, was struggling in math.

 

 

[kbutton]

It could be many things. My son has some of the same issues at 7.5, but they come and go. He is resistant to doing things the same way each time with mental math, but I've worked on that because he makes mistakes if he doesn't. He'll get the initial part of the mental math correct, tell the me the right number out loud, and then change it in his head!!! Then he'll proceed to answer the question correctly based on the rest of what he's doing (in other words, he'll use the wrong number he changed in his head, but use that number correctly for what that new number is). It's maddening. 

 

So, could be a maths disability, but it could be executive functioning issues. Vision issues can interfere as well.

 

I let my son figure out his own strategies, and we talk about why they work, and then I pick the one that has the least number of steps, and insist he use it for mental math. It helps some. If he's doing a word problem, I insist he write out the steps. Even then, he'll the write down a correct number, and when he puts it into the next step of the problem, he will change it, transpose numbers, etc. 

 

We also break out the manipulatives if he's stuck on facts, but that's not typical for him. My older son needed much more work with the facts. He had a good number sense, and he could calculate his answers. The problem was that they just didn't stick as individual facts. My older one is still this way with multiplication and division, but using a fact chart has helped him memorize them more easily (go figure!). 

 

Math requires a LOT of working memory.

 

*edited to fix a reference to the wrong child

[PeterPan]

.

[mamabear2three]

Thanks OhElizabeth - I don't know why I can't see your comment on here but I could read it in my email and your explanation of number sense vs. working memory makes sense and gives me a direction to work.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

With the sensory/motor planning/ ADHD issues, it does not surprise me that your DD is struggling with math.  A np diagnoses the SLDs.  I have a couple of thoughts because my eldest has a maths disability and my DD is the same age as your girl w/some mild motor planning stuff.

 

My DD has worked with both an OT and pediatric PT.  She performs daily copywork using sheets that I generate using sw.  She has developed writing automaticity recently. HWT sells an handwriting app for iPad that is pretty good.  We switched from the HWT app to LOE handwriting materials.

 

You say that that fact families to 10 are not mastered.  Those numbers should be instant by now. Since she is beginning 2nd grade, maybe back up with the math.  You can print up a 10 tray and use tokens and a dice cube to build numbers.  Work on facts to 5 and then 10.  Ronit Birds sells e-books that use c-rods and dot patterns to explore number.  Maybe contact RB directly and ask her where you should start.  Make whatever you do fun and short and don't rush.  You needn't to go crazy purchasing new materials.  Use the problem sets that you have and rewrite them on grid paper or a dry erase board.  With ADHD /sensory issues that you are dealing with, your DD may just need more time with the materials so don't panic.

 

Start saving for the np eval now.  I'm not saying you will need one, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared. Good luck!

 

 

[geodob]

Her writing numbers in reverse, but not letters is interesting?

What this raises, is a question about the way that she concieves of math?

Particularly the direction?

Our mental concept of what is called the 'number line'.

Is actually concieved of from left to right.

So that 1,2,3,4,etc, are concieved from left to right.

We add to the right, and subtract to the left.

Our concepts of past and future, are also located on the left and right.

 

But for some people, they concieve of it in the opposite direction, from right to left.

So perhaps you could try something?

Have her do some written math.

But have her intentionally write the numbers in reverse.

But also importantly, have her write the order in reverse. So that 27 becomes 72.

'Tens' are then on the right, rather than the left.

 

Where it would be interesting to see whether doing a written math calculation, totally in reverse?

Comes naturally to her?

[mamabear2three]

 

 

You say that that fact families to 10 are not mastered.  Those numbers should be instant by now.

Yes - and sometimes they are - the more worked up she gets, the less she seems to know, which makes sense... dh thinks it's all anxiety. We worked a long time last year on facts, but subtraction never did come easy. Today we were practicing skip counting and when she had 405 and had to skip count by 5, she said "40, 45, 50" so I reminded her about place value again, then she counted "four hundred 5, 10 hundred five" which makes no sense to me at all. 

 

Her writing numbers in reverse, but not letters is interesting?

What this raises, is a question about the way that she concieves of math?

Particularly the direction?

Our mental concept of what is called the 'number line'.

Is actually concieved of from left to right.

So that 1,2,3,4,etc, are concieved from left to right.

We add to the right, and subtract to the left.

Our concepts of past and future, are also located on the left and right.

 

But for some people, they concieve of it in the opposite direction, from right to left.

So perhaps you could try something?

Have her do some written math.

But have her intentionally write the numbers in reverse.

But also importantly, have her write the order in reverse. So that 27 becomes 72.

'Tens' are then on the right, rather than the left.

 

Where it would be interesting to see whether doing a written math calculation, totally in reverse?

Comes naturally to her?

Just thinking about that makes my head hurt! I only gave her one problem and was a little surprised at how easy it was for her to write backwards numbers on purpose... I was having to work hard to see whether she wrote the numbers correctly or not. To her it was as if the numbers were fluid and changing their direction was not a problem. It would be interesting to give her a several problems and see if she could solve them easier, but I'm not sure how this helps me - and how does it help her? 

[geodob]

That was interesting how easy it was for her to write the numbers backwards, on purpose.

A simple way to check it, is to hold a small mirror next to the numbers. Which will show how accurate they are.

 

As to how this could help her?

In this research that I've been involved with? What we have been doing, is to have the children only write backwards.

What we have found, is that within 2 to 4 weeks.

Without any prompting, one day a switch will occur, and they can suddenly write the correct way.

Where it is important to allow the 'switch' to naturally occur.

 

So perhaps you could see how she goes with doing some 'math problems' backwards?

All that is needed, is a mirror to check how accurate she is.

 

[kbutton]

I think I'd really consider working with manipulatives (c-rods, number strips, etc.), and having her maybe use cards with numbers on them. Consider talking her through it and having a reference chart. If it's all in front her and very well-defined (different colors for each place value, for example), then maybe the anxiety would lessen, and the working memory would be less taxed. Then see if she's still struggling. My son did a lot of math this way before doing it without those aids. 

 

So, start with the manips you have. See if they have colors already--our number strips are colored. Pull out the ones you'll use (I assume you'll need 0-999 or so). If the ones place is green, then maybe make digits 0-9 in green marker on index cards. Make additional cards for all the other place values that match. The only think she'll have to do is match them to the number strips, and realize that a green 1 mean 1 unit/one, a blue 2 means two tens (20), etc. She can use the cards to indicate her answers, and she can use c-rods if necessary as well. This might let her focus on what the math means rather than getting all the details correct about where the numbers go, what they look like. 

 

Just an idea--at some point, this can be transferred to a visual, color-coded chart, and eventually translated to writing, etc.? I used these methods with my son before his writing was solid--he was doing a lot of math in preschool, and I had to find a way to help him remember what seemed so arbitrary to him, while also supporting the fact that his motor skills just weren't there. We spent a lot of time with orienting letters and numbers as well. He had lots of issues with left/right, etc. 

 

I hope this makes sense. I may be missing your point or rambling, but I can try again if I'm just out to lunch.

[mamabear2three]

I think I'd really consider working with manipulatives (c-rods, number strips, etc.), and having her maybe use cards with numbers on them. Consider talking her through it and having a reference chart. If it's all in front her and very well-defined (different colors for each place value, for example), then maybe the anxiety would lessen, and the working memory would be less taxed. Then see if she's still struggling. My son did a lot of math this way before doing it without those aids. 

 

So, start with the manips you have. See if they have colors already--our number strips are colored. Pull out the ones you'll use (I assume you'll need 0-999 or so). If the ones place is green, then maybe make digits 0-9 in green marker on index cards. Make additional cards for all the other place values that match. The only think she'll have to do is match them to the number strips, and realize that a green 1 mean 1 unit/one, a blue 2 means two tens (20), etc. She can use the cards to indicate her answers, and she can use c-rods if necessary as well. This might let her focus on what the math means rather than getting all the details correct about where the numbers go, what they look like. 

 

Just an idea--at some point, this can be transferred to a visual, color-coded chart, and eventually translated to writing, etc.? I used these methods with my son before his writing was solid--he was doing a lot of math in preschool, and I had to find a way to help him remember what seemed so arbitrary to him, while also supporting the fact that his motor skills just weren't there. We spent a lot of time with orienting letters and numbers as well. He had lots of issues with left/right, etc. 

 

I hope this makes sense. I may be missing your point or rambling, but I can try again if I'm just out to lunch.

 

 

This is a great idea - I love the color coding! My plan right now, tentatively, is to use manipulatives for everything and our OT is working with us to help us with ideas to add gross motor and other sensory things to do math with as well. She suggested hiding coins in a rice bin for her to find and identify, for example.