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question for LC board for my "homeschooling preschook and k" seminar


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Hi all,

 

I'm putting on an evening seminar for moms who will have kids 3-7 at home this coming year. I want to talk about having a more laid back approach to reading than is offered by our local schools but don't want to steer someone wrongly who does need to be getting help.

 

What age should a child be evaluated if he or she hasn't been able to "get" reading? With my kids, I've tried around 5 for two weeks or so, found it was hard, tried again 3 months later, and it was easy by 5.5 or 5.75 for them to retain letters and make connections. If a parent took this approach (two weeks on, wait a few months and try again, until lessons seem fruitful) what age should they seek evaluation for fruitlessness?

 

What about an approach switch? I've always done simple phonics (Phonics Pathways, Bear Essentials). If that didn't work, would AAR or something be a better approach because it has more stuff to reinforce the ideas?

Thanks for your help. I've really benefitted from reading all the great advice you've given SWB in the 4th edition thread. I do think learning challenges need to be more on the radar of the homeschool community, which is the main reason I want to mention this subject.

 

Thanks,

Emily

 

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The problem is you can't go just by age.  They diagnosed my ds with dyslexia at newly 6 because there was such an astonishing gap between his IQ and achievement.  He got all 3 SLDs diagnosed, even by the ps, at 6.5 as a K5er, because of this huge gap.  So the truth is a parent has to use their gut sense about what's going on, what is appropriate.  

 

Counseling someone who's having problems is a challenge, because you're balancing pep rally (oh, stop worrying, it comes later) with listening for warning flags that people who have btdt pick up.  

 

I think it's so commonly true that moms are gung ho with #1 and start early that it's not a problem to point that out.  I think it's not a problem to point out the gender gap (girls vs boys).  I *don't* think it's wise to make this a pit war against the ps, because frankly I think we need to be honest about what we're dealing with.  Standards have changed, and pretending they haven't does us no good.  What we got away with 10 years ago might not be the best path now.  Some of those kids who skirted by before might need to be grade adjusted with the new CC standards.  It's something people need to be honest about to sort through.  I don't think avoiding standardized testing or accountability does anyone any good.

 

If you want something interesting, google for the Open Letter on learning disabilities someone wrote ages ago and posted here.  Good stuff, thought provoking.  Just to be honest, I straddle two camps.  My ds has both disabilities that needed to be honestly identified *and* timetable issues.  Even his timetable issues are coming from his disabilities, so I'm not really vague about it, sort of swirling my hands and saying oh yeah, someday it will happen.  I spend my pennies doing everything I can with him to intervene in that process, but I'm pretty sensitive too.  Like we spent the day doing Knex.  It works on a lot of our goals (social, language, math, reading, spatial, fine motor, science), so that's what we did.  And I don't give a flying flip if someone else's 1st grade (which I don't really call my ds, but which theoretically he is) looks different.  But I'm also not naive about what's happening and where he's diverging either.  

 

I'm saying I might make choices for myself, but I personally would be really cautious about telling other people what to do when it comes to ignoring standards, etc.  

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I think a general thing is if you have a smart child and reading seems hard, there's a problem, but who knows?

 

I personally wouldn't recommend the start, stop and wait, then start again method but I guess ii depends.

 

Pick a phonics based reading program instead of whole reading. Don't push sight words as the way to read as it emphasizes guessing. Emphasize programs with phonemic awareness (rhyming, syllables, sounds).

 

They say most reversals are gone by 7. I think the majority are gone around 6-6.5 if letters are taught from 5 years old. But reading standards have changed so much. When I was in k we didn't read. We recognized letters. And today's standards are inappropriate.

 

Sorry it's not helpful so much.

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Agree with OhE. This is a tough one and really hard to determine. And some parents will tune out completely if someone implies they may need evaluations. At the same time you are absolutely right, this needs to be more on the radar of the homeschooling community. Well, of people in general.

 

My mom is a reading specialist with a Master' degree, lots of certifications and decades of teaching experience and she absolutely did not recognize that DD's struggles were because of dyslexia, among other things. DD showed classic signs at 4. Repeating a grade helped a bit but did not fix the problem. We didn't understand what we were seeing. No diagnosis until 5th grade so a lot of exhausting, demoralizing years before she finally got the targeted help she needed.

 

My suggestion is to encourage parents that have concerns regarding delayed reading skills to read websites like at The Dyslexic Advantage and the free information at Barton Reading and Spelling and maybe read books like The Mislabeled Child just to gain a bit more balanced understanding of possible things to look for and what terms like dyslexia actually mean. I would link but I am on my phone. Another good source is How to Homeschool Your Struggling Learner by Kathy Kuhl and her website. Sandy Cook has some books and a helpful website, too. I think it is called Learning Abled Kids.

 

If they have concerns, being able to read more info may be a better option than leaping into evals right away.

 

Thanks for asking, by the way. I hope you can help get the word out for those that need it. Best wishes.

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http://www.dys-add.com/dyslexia.html#anchorSymptomsPreschool

 

This is a list of pre-school and Kindergarten signs from the Barton reading website. 

 

At the time, I would not have seen any of these signs in my son.  In retrospect:  he did not care for rhyming books, he had trouble with "l" and "r", he could not complete any phonemic awareness tasks.  When he was 5 years old, if I said 3 words, and 2 started with the same sound, he couldn't tell the 2 words that started with the same sound.  Like -- bat, big, ham.  Which words start with the same sound?  He would not know.  It took him a long time to say what the first sound in those words would be.  

 

But he was such a smart and verbal pre-schooler, I never dreamed he would have trouble learning to read, until he did.  He had a lot of articulation errors (and ended up doing a lot of speech therapy) but I didn't know that would have anything to do with reading for him, I heard many people say it would be no problem.  

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I'm pasting in here the Open Letter Laurie4b wrote years ago.

 

This is an appeal from the heart to my sisters and brothers in the homeschooling community. Many children and families in the homeschooling community are needlessly suffering because of some of our widely accepted beliefs that are closer to myth than to reality. The children that I ache for are those with learning problems. You may prefer to call them learning differences or disabilities, but these are kids who are not learning at the expected level for their age group even with adequate instruction. The advice often given by the homeschooling community when the mother or father begins to search for answers can lead to heartache. 

To simplify, I d like to use the analogy of a cake recipe. Often there are variations that change the flavor of a basic recipe. To keep this simple, the gender of the parent will be female, and the child male. 

The basic recipe calls for: 

One child, somewhere around the age of 5-6 eager to learn. Unbeknownst to anyone, he has specific learning disabilities. 

One homeschooling mom, wanting to provide the very best in education for her child, eagerly looking for curriculum suggestions, reading books, optimistic about what she can provide. Like every loving parent, she wants her child to be normal and it will be sorrowful to her to find that her child has an actual problem, that he is not just like other kids. 

Please note: mom and student are the same in either variation. It s the way the homeschooling community responds that changes the outcome of the cake. 

Variation 1: Heartbreak cake 

Once the mother begins to notice, or even intuit problems, she begins to ask around for help. This particular cake calls for a homeschooling community that will add the following: 

2 scoops of advice such as better late than early, or many kids don t click till age 10-11 

1 cup of mistrust of professionals; for those who like a less spicy version, this can be the do-it-yourself-ism that is a strength at times of homeschooling;for a spicier version, add fear that that CPS will end up involved if you pursue help 

Make sure the homeschool community bowl is free of any oil of early warning signs of learning disabilities. Even a small pinch of this can result in celebration cake instead (see below) 

7 teaspoons of encouragement to switch curriculum as the answer 

If the batter begins to bubble, continue adding reassurances that her kid will eventually get it and be just fine; if that still doesn t work, add a few more tsps. of encouragement to switch curriculum 

Add one scoop of fear of formal labeling. Natural labeling will occur as the cake bakes over the next few years. (Choice of flavors is typically determined by the child; most common variety is stupid ) 

Bake another 4-6 years or longer if desired, until age 10-12 or longer, waiting for the click. 

If there is no click, you ll have heartbreak cake: a child who has labeled himself stupid, bad, and /or weird and who feels so bad about himself that the original LD is no longer the major problem; a child who may have passed the optimal window for remediation; or who has given up. This cake will likely be glazed by deep parental guilt. * (Note: if you ve baked this cake and didn t mean to, good news at the end. I am in no way condemning you as the parent. I am trying to prevent other heartbreak cakes.) 

Variation 2 : Celebration cake: 

To the same basic recipe, as the mother begins to notice, or even intuit problems, and begins to ask around for help, this cake calls for a homeschooling community that will add the following: 

10 scoops of affirmation to trust your own sense of things as a mother and teacher that something is wrong, even if you can t put your finger on it 

1 scoop of information about early red flags of learning disabilities 

3 cups of networking about effective therapies and strategies 

2 spoonfuls of encouragement that seeking help is not a sign of failure, and that professionals can be a homeschoolers best friend 

No traces of better late than early or late bloomer myths oil in the bowl; this can cause celebration cake to not peak to its highest potential and to revert to heartbreak cake. 

If you see traces of the myth oil above, add one Pascal s wager: if there is nothing wrong, and you get an evaluation, you will have wasted only time and money, and gotten some reassurance. If there are specific learning disabilities present, and you wait till it clicks, you cannot give your child back those lost years, your child will likely have emotional repercussions, you may well have missed the best window of opportunity for remediation, and your child s future may be negatively impacted. Which is riskier? 

If fear of labeling begins to emerge in the batter, add 1 scoop of reality: if your child is different, he will be labeled, by himself and his peers, at least. His labels will be stupid, bad , and/or weird . Adults may throw in lazy or disobedient . The formal labels of learning disability, sensory integration, Asperger s etc. explain what is happening, help the child know he isn t uniquely defective and help you identify strategies. 

(((hugs))) to a parent who may be facing the grief of acknowledging that her child is not normal 

Baking time: no longer than age 7 to begin the process of seeking help; bake for shorter period if problems show up in preschool; after this initial period, turn the heat down slightly and bake as long as it takes, using all the strategies gathered formally and informally, professional help and whatever else it takes 

Voila! Celebration cake! A child who would have struggled through life under other circumstances, but who in the very special oven of homeschooling has had his strengths emphasized, and his education tailored specifically to him. He may have totally overcome his learning disabilities, or he may have been helped to learn effective strategies to navigate around them. 

Some notes: Following the notes are some early warning signs 


If you are a parent reading this, and you realize that you have a heartbreak cake on your hands, I know that you will grieve. Please don t spend a lot of time in guilt. There is still much that can be done. I believe in a God who can redeem even our mistakes and make something beautiful happen. But if you ve got a child who is 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 . and you are just realizing that there is not going to be the magic click run, don t walk, to get help. Please get an evaluation, and if you are starting this process at this point, consider some professional tutoring or coaching to help you get things on track. 
A book that you will find encouraging: One Mind at a Time by Mel Levine. Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz is another that is helpful, but you ll have to ignore her belief that only professionals can help a child learn to read. Please also consider putting the energy that you might have put into guilt into preventing this from happening to other families. 

If you are a parent beginning to teach a child to read, check out Overcoming Dyslexia from your library. I think it should have been better titled, Preventing Reading Problems. It will have some useful information for you, too. 

If you are a parent reading this, and you sense you could have heartbreak cake in the making, please get some help. Here are some places to start: 

Where to go for help: Post on the special needs board; you ll find the moms and some professionals who post there very helpful. If you suspect something on the autism spectrum, developmental disabilities, or something very unusual, see if there is a Center for Development and Learning near you. These are often associated with teaching hospitals, and can be one stop shops. If your child demonstrates oversensitivity, stimulus seeking, fine motor skills problems, and/or physical clumsiness, go to an occupational therapist. Problems in speech and language, or for young children having problems with rhyme, see a Speech and Language Pathologist. Learning disability: some psychologists, reading specialists, educational evaluators all can do some of the relevant testing. For reading disabilities, getting an individual achievement test such as the Woodcock Johnson, or Woodcock Reading Mastery Test should be in the $75 range, and give you some good information. The public school system provides free testing for children not yet of school age. I believe it is up to the state or in some states, local districts, as to whether they will test school age children who don t attend. I ll post a link of relevant federal law that also includes a list of advocacy organizations by state. 

~~con't~~

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The Late Bloomer Myth: I know I ll get a lot of flack for calling this a myth. I know people will recount how they waited and their child suddenly clicked at age 10. 

In the a longitudinal study of over 400 children that has been running for over 20 years, cited by Sally Shawitz in her book, Overcoming Dyslexia, there was no evidence found of this. On the other hand, prevalence of dyslexia was relatively high. They tested their sample at the beginning of the study and found that as many girls as boys have dyslexia and that about 20% of their sample met the criteria. (Studies using school identification for the criteria set the percentage lower and may reflect bias related to behavior rather than reading issues. ) 

My own experience is consistent with this. For a number of years, I administered individual achievement testing for the homeschool community (required in our state). I probably tested about 50 kids per year, and saw many of them year after year, so I had a chance to track their progress. You would think that I would have seen many late bloomers if they are as prevalent as it appears on homeschooling boards. At first when I thought about this, I remembered 3 (out of probably a total of around a hundred different kids). Then as I thought more, I remembered what I knew of their educations (I knew all the moms.) All of them were relaxed homeschoolers, who believed the late bloomer myth, and taught accordingly. In other words, believing that the time for clicking had not yet arrived, they relaxed their teaching. I believe that could well have had something to do with the late blooming in hindsight. (As an aside, 2 of the 3 moms ended up having another child who never bloomed because of LD s. They are now working hard (and spending megabucks) to get their children on track. 

I asked a friend of mine who s taught public school in 3rd-5th grade for 28 years how many kids she s seen who struggle through 1st and 2nd and then suddenly click in 3rd-5th grades. She s known none. 

I think it s time for the homeschooling community to take a good, hard, logical look at the belief that it s okay to wait until a child is 10 or 11 before worrying about anything being wrong. 

On professionals: Seeking help from a professional does not mean that you are relegating control of your child s schooling;rather, you are getting a consultation to help you make the best decisions you can, and be the best teacher you can. You can decide to let a professional intervene, as in tutoring, or you can just make use of their data. You can decide whether what she is saying makes sense or not for your child. Some people fear that seeking professional help increases one s chances of being reported to CPS. While I think there is reason to take into account the rather unchecked power of CPS, I think we can get a skewed perspective of risk because in the homeschooling community, many hear about HSLDA s horror stories, but we don t get a newsletter with all the positive contributions professionals make in the lives of homeschooling children. Your best bet is to know your professionals. Ask around in your community and learn about people s reputations. You might try contacting HSLDA to see if they have suggestions in your area if that would make you comfortable. 

In recommending making early use of professionals, I am not saying that networking with other parents is not also an excellent source of information and support. I am saying that we shouldn t avoid professionals. 

~~con't~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

Early warning signs: (This list includes warning signs for conditions other than simple learning disabilities 

Preschool: Look for clusters of symptoms </i > 

Social differences: if your child does not have many friends, does not seem to know the rules for playing, if other kids don t seem to like your child, or if there is not normal eye contact. Other children are often a very accurate indicator of differences. 

Language differences: delayed talking, talking in stock phrases, using an odd tone of voice, echoing what people say, inability to follow multi-step instructions, flat tone of voice when singing or reciting 

Physical differences: toe walking, chronic constipation or diarrhea, chronic difficulty falling or staying asleep, frequently slumps or falls off chair when sitting at the table (may look like this is on purpose), physically clumsy, toe walking, difficulty with gross motor skills, high pain tolerance 

Difficulty with fine motor skills (these are sometimes delayed, particularly in boys, but if there are any other flags, have them evaluated) 

Over sensitivity to light, sound, clothing (tags, etc), aversion to several smells, picky eater 

Stimulus seeking: impulsive, hyperactive, always into mess, likes swinging, spinning, makes constant noise, etc. 

Emotional/behavioral: behavior is not responsive to normal disciplinary measures, high level of anxiety, hysteria, crying, and temper outbursts 

If there is a cluster of these flags seek help immediately and keep seeking help until you get an explanation that accounts for your sense of what s not right. Some conditions can be completely remediated , without drugs, if treatment is pursued early enough. 

Preschool readiness: 
Lack of awareness or enjoyment of rhyming, does not know nursery rhymes even if you read them to her, lack of interest in writing own name, messy coloring (scribbling), lack of interest in oral memory games (I m going on a picnic and bringing a . ) or visual memory games (concentration), cannot find visual similarities in like things , still talks baby talk or transposes sounds in words: aminal, emeny, aks, pacific (specific), stumble over sounds trying to pronounce new or long words. (These are all indications of learning disabilities) 

Beginning instruction: 
Has difficulty with associating letters of the alphabet with sound, difficulty with phoneme awareness (cannot rhyme, cannot tell you how many sounds are in dog; can t tell you what stop without the s sound would be: See Reading Reflex or Overcoming Dyslexia for short list ), grossly deficient motor skills (not just a dislike of writing, but very distorted letters, drawing ability behind other children his age), can t get 1:1 correspondence needed to count, etc. (These are all indications of learning disabilities) 


If your child is not progressing in any one of the 3 R s by age 7 , it s wise to seek an evaluation. They can be done sooner. Your child may be progressing, but your gut tells you that progress is slower than it should be or more of a struggle than it should be. (This assumes you are providing consistent instruction.) (These are indications of learning disabilities). 

Why I am writing this, and who am I? I m writing out of concern for kids with learning disabilities not being served well some prevalent beliefs in the homeschool community. I m a former educational and children s mental health professional, a former foster mother of two kids with learning differences, and the mother of two biological kids with learning differences. I have incorporated information from current professionals I know, and many, many helpful suggestions from other mothers of children with special needs on the special needs board. Though I ve done the best I could, as I suspect others have, I, too, have made mistakes in waiting (in our case till age 7). 

A huge thank-you to you, SWB, for maintaining these boards. The advice and direction I have received on the special need board has totally changed the life of my most severely affected child. I might still be searching for the right information, might still be wondering if I was overreacting or whether there was something wrong. 

Again, I want to repeat that none of what I have said is intended to be condemning of a parent with a child with special needs, whatever decisions you ve made. I believe that most parents do their very best with the information available to them. . 

I am intending to challenge some belief systems in the homeschooling community at large in the hope that moms like you and children like yours have the best outcome possible. I am aware that challenging widespread beliefs will create conflict, which I would prefer to avoid. However, if this information helps even a few moms and their children with special learning problems or other special needs, I m taking a deep breath and ducking! 

Thanks to the folks on the special needs board who have helped me hone this. Please head over there if you have questions that you want to start exploring. This post is already very long and I couldn t include everything. 
 
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I think all kids deserve a vision checkup when starting school (say, K).  Kids who are having trouble learning to read may benefit from having that checkup with a developmental optometrist who may screen for additional issues upon hearing that the kiddo isn't reading as well as the parent was hoping.

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I think all kids deserve a vision checkup when starting school (say, K).  Kids who are having trouble learning to read may benefit from having that checkup with a developmental optometrist who may screen for additional issues upon hearing that the kiddo isn't reading as well as the parent was hoping.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And I think it's a CRIME that regular optometrists aren't trained in the basic screening tools developmental optometrists do.  These are screenings our kids NEED.  So I would NEVER take my dc to an optom who was not trained in devel optom for that age 5, age 6, etc. check-up, because you're not getting the screening that will check for the issues that affect school work.  And the joke is, it costs nothing more to get that annual done with a dev. optom. instead.  You just have to know to find one.  COVD.org

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Great thread!

 

Here's some of what I wrote to the Divine SWB.

 

What are the clues to possible issues? Check your child’s countenance.  Kindergarten is supposed to be filled with fun and laughter and a joy to learn.  Healthy children do not hate Kindergarten unless some sort of problem exists.  If a 5 or 6 year struggles to handwrite, deal with hand pain or a crazy grip immediately.  Handwriting should be dealt with by seeking an OT assessment that looks at vestibular, motor planning, developmental motor, visual perception, and pincer/core strength.  Can your child read?  Not all reading programs are equal and a sight word heavy reading program is harmful to dyslexics.  Some children suffer vision issues that require assessment by a COVD certified optometrist to determine convergence sufficiency and binocular vision issues.  If a child has suffered multiple ear infections, they may require a pre-reading program such as LIPS to help with phonological awareness

 

What do I wish I had changed?  I should have enrolled DS with an O-G reading tutor over the summer immediately following Kindergarten. The dysgraphia should have been accommodated immediately, and I should have immediately sought the assistance of an OT.  He should have never been pressured to handwrite because scribing really is no big deal. 

 

What would I say to parents of struggling learners?  Do not be fearful.  These children learn differently but can learn.  They require hands-on and explicit instruction.  Be patient and allow their children to pursue interests and strengths.  All children need balance in their lives.  Learning takes time.  The world will not end if the student doesn’t truly understand parts of speech until eighth grade.  Paragraph writing will be learned with time by using direct and explicit instruction.  Technology and accommodations are essential for these kids to be successful.  Technology can be a pain at first but has been a lifesaver to my student.  Don’t expect others to see issues with your child.  Even with testing that supported our concerns, family members would insist that there was no learning issues.  Thank-you Grandpa, but you only see your grandson over the holidays.  And lastly, the learning issues aren’t about you or your failings.  Learning issues are the result organic brain differences so don’t delay the helps and accommodations that your child truly needs.  These students love their parents and genuinely want to please.  They are not struggling on purpose to make your life difficult, and they are not lazy.

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Thanks for the input.

 

I think the people who will be coming are atypical homeschoolers; I'm putting this on because more than one person asked me a question like, "I don't want to send my 3-year-old to preschool. Am I disadvantaging my child if I don't send him to preschool at 3?" So the attitude here is fear and experts (I've seen ads on our neighborhood list for things like baseball pitching coaches for a 10-year-old), not avoid experts at all cost.

 

Emily

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About the eyes...

 

My son has incomplete visual development because an eye exam at 4 was TOO LATE. Now, he's going to be fine in the sense that he'll be able to drive, he'll eventually probably have correct vision with his glasses (it's not completely correctable yet), etc. However, he basically has the equivalent of two lazy eyes. He lost TONS of time just learning to notice and observe what other kids notice an observe. His Rx is horrendous (though earlier exams probably wouldn't change that).

 

Anyway, besides mentioning COVD docs, please mention the INFANTsee program. Specially trained optometrists can get babies in glasses if they need them! http://www.infantsee.org/(Our current optometrist has COVD and infant vision credentials.)

 

If you want to be truly frightened, survey your friends to see how many of them or their children (of all ages) have never had an eye exam except for the school/peds screening. It's downright shocking.

My kids didn't struggle to read, but I see many moms put their head in the sand when their kids don't learn to read easily. Many display the signs mentioned upthread. I encourage anyone who is interested in educating their child to become familiar with the common learning issues and their signs--dyslexia especially. If one in five individuals has dyslexia, it's impossible to be too aware.

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Kbutton, that could also be connected to being low tone and just having a propensity.  Opthamological issues are common in people with low tone.  (Eyes use muscles and all that.)  I'm saying, at some point you can release yourself, because he might have had significant issues even WITH intervention.  My dd's eyes STILL lean toward convergence issues, even with tons of therapy.  She uses a microscope and bam headaches.  And it's the low tone.

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