angelmama1209 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 My 10 year old (going into 5th grade) dd has a mental block about math. She believes it's too hard and therefore"hates" it. It goes through seasons of ok-ness (when she gets it) and pure torture (when something new is introduced and she actually has to think). in the worst times she just cries and beats herself up saying she's dumb and stupid and will never get it. In reality she's NOT bad at math, but it doesn't come easily for her. I honestly think she'll hate any math curriculum because of her attitude about it, but I'm wondering if it's time to try something new. She's an off the charts visual learner and HIGHLY distractable. We've tried: Right Start (too teacher intensive and manipulatives were distracting) Singapore (only tried in 1st grade, but questions led to storytelling rather than answers) MEP (I had trouble converting to single child use) Miquon (I never got it. Just never clicked) Life of Fred (most of the elementary series as a supplement. She enjoyed it, though I found it annoying, but pretty sure she didn't learn much from it) Math Mammoth (our current curriculum. I like it and feel it's effective. It's the best fit for ME and my math professor hubby approves the scope and sequence. But I'm wondering if we should try something else for HER) we also do xtramath every day for math facts practice and they do the free version (10 problems a day) of splash math every morning. Any suggestions/help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Is she on grade with math or behind? How long have you used the programs for? How do you feel about math? Can your hubby help out with math? (FWIW, my dad is an engineer and always wanted to help, but always gave us way too much info, so I understand if that is a problem!) Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I think supplementing with fun stuff like games, living math books, projects, art, etc. (see the "relaxed math" thread for ideas) can help some kids like this. And be willing to go a little slower with a core program to fit that stuff in once a week or so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 Is she on grade with math or behind? How long have you used the programs for? How do you feel about math? Can your hubby help out with math? (FWIW, my dad is an engineer and always wanted to help, but always gave us way too much info, so I understand if that is a problem!) Emily we are "lazy-schoolers" so she is about half a year behind in math right now. we school year round, but take LOTS of days/weeks/even a month off here and there. so she's "entering" 5th, but just started mm 4b. we've used mm for 2 years now. we did all of rs a, and a couple of weeks of singapore, probably half a year of mep, a few pages of miquon, and most of lof elem series. my 7yo is thriving in mm and liking it and my 6yo has been doing cuisenaire rod books b ut is ready to move into something else. i like math, but don't have a lot of time to sit down and work 1 on 1 with her. i have 4 others including a preschooler and very active, mischievous, rambunctious toddler. hubby is on tenure track and getting his doctorate. he will help when he can but if often not available. he WILL be working with her for the month of august when he's off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 I think supplementing with fun stuff like games, living math books, projects, art, etc. (see the "relaxed math" thread for ideas) can help some kids like this. And be willing to go a little slower with a core program to fit that stuff in once a week or so. i am really bad at stuff like this. i need a curriculum that tells me what to do. i have 18389439058 resources, but pulling them together and getting it done just doesn't happen. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 CLE math is your answer. It's not teacher intensive. It introduces small bites at a time and reviews previous concepts every lesson. The layout is clean. The TM is easy to use (unlike MM). It is written to the student. I've been a devoted MM user for the last 4 years and my kids have an excellent understanding of math but they HATE it. I switched over to CLE last year for my oldest because I didn't want to torture her anymore, and it's been like a breath of fresh air. It's not as conceptual as MM, but it is written clearer and so much easier to use. I was going to do both MM and CLE for my 4th grader, and have been for the last two weeks, but comparing side by side, MM is just so onerous. I decided yesterday to drop MM for my 4th grader and switch my 2nd grader who was doing only MM to CLE before her love of math was destroyed. *I* love MM. I think it is brilliant. I don't really want to persuade anyone not to do MM. But it is a bit much for some kids. I love how conceptual it is, but I'm realizing maybe elementary kids don't need to wade through the conceptual stuff as much as MM requires it, at least not at the expense of their love for math. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shernandez Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 CLE has been our saving grace, too. My daughter went from hating math to claiming it is her 2nd favorite subject. Like your dd, mine was good at math but claimed it was too hard and had a break down every.single.day about it because she actually has to work to understand it;) I find it to be an excellent program, supplemented with word problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hwin Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Are you doing every problem of every worksheet in Math Mammoth? I circle every other. My son swears he hates math so I try to give him some choice in which questions to do (if I'm sure he gets the concept). I think most people only do half the problems with MM :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I second the idea of doing on every other problem (or even fewer if she is getting most of them right). While she doesn't like the curriculum, I would be reluctant to change if she is learning... My daughter told the most amazing, wonderful math teacher I've ever met that she "hates math." This lovely woman proceeded to probe, asking questions like, "can you think of any part of math you dislike less?" until my daughter reluctantly admitted that she didn't dislike word problems that much. The teacher brightened up and said, "Then you'll like my kind of math." My daughter took a 5-week math class with her and a group (that I was careful to make sure included another girl - previously my daughter had for some reason thought of math as a boy thing) and it really turned around her attitude. They focused on problems that are completely outside of the normal curriculum once a week for 90 minutes. I do think you have less of a problem than you realize if your daughter hates math but is able to learn it. Does she need arithmetic support? My daughter hated xtramath (too competitive) but has thrived on Reflex Math (you pay, but it is game based and non-competitive). Then you don't need to be with her for her to get consistent practice. The light turns green on the screen when the child has had enough practice for the day, which for my kids works out to about 20 min/day. How about setting aside one day a week as a math game day? We play a game called Pickomino which is unique because a lot of arithmetic is practiced but it teaches higher order thinking skills. Adults can actually enjoy it, too, because there is strategy involved. Prime Climb might be a good choice, too. I find a lot of math practice games lame, and neither of these are. Finally, my daughter doesn't appear to hate arithmetic anymore because she now is good at it and it isn't much work for her. Emily 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I have no great suggestions as we muddled through with a variety until prealgebra, but I did want to encourage you. Often visual learners are big picture thinkers, and they might hate math until they hit algebra or prealgebra. Then they love it. The trick is getting them there and keeping your sanity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 i am really bad at stuff like this. i need a curriculum that tells me what to do. i have 18389439058 resources, but pulling them together and getting it done just doesn't happen. :/ Well, IME, the sort of things that can help improve a child's view of a subject aren't in a curriculum. They're taking time to experience, play around, have fun, look for the beauty. Some programs try to build that in and some kids are really organized, linear thinkers who respond better to programs that are more direct, but when you have a kid who isn't responding, I think it's worth it to try that stuff. And it doesn't have to be hard. I think you just make a time and build it into your routine. Just, every Friday, for an hour, we're going to not do regular math, we'll find something else to do - we'll read those fun math books we never get around to, we'll play those games with math that sit on the shelf, we'll play math video games and give mom a break, we'll make a list of possible projects and resources and just pick one each week on the spur of the moment. And the more you do it, the easier it gets. I know it can be harder to do that stuff. But I think it can be worth it to try if the goal is to improve a child's view of a subject. I second (or third or fourth?) only doing every other problem in MM. The great thing is that if she struggles, then you've got plenty left over to practice on, but if she doesn't struggle, she's out of there faster. Also useful is to use a strategy that is talked about here called "buddy math" where you do a problem, then she does one, then you, then her. And as you do yours, you talk out your solution as you go, explaining how you're solving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Since you've done Righstart, do you still have the cards and the games book? If so, maybe JUST do games. Do games, every day. Start where she is in the different sections, and advance through the games sections. Just the games. No worksheets, just games. See how that goes for a while. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targhee Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Have you thought about using EducationUnboxed as a visual explanation resource? And allowing her to use the rods as a manipulative? My visual kids preferred conceptual/mastery based math over spiral math (and especially over worksheets). My very visual dd8 LOVES playing with the rods, and using them to do math. She makes designs and stories with them - in fact that's all I let her do with them at first. She became so familiar with them that transitioning to using them in arithmetic was easy (thanks to Miquon and EducationUnboxed). I know it's hard with multiple kids, but really math, reading, and writing are critical to future success. I'd be willing to toss science (my favorite) history and art out the window to have more time to help my child understand and gain confidence in these three areas. I actually had to do that to an extent to help two of my kids with writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurse_kris Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Have you tried TeachingTextbooks? It is on dvd and would probably keep your daughters attention if she is a visual learner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnMomof7 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I had a math crier too. CLE saved the math day here. We are all about the spiral :). MUS and MM were our flops before finding it. You can just buy a LU or two and try it, small investment of money and time :). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Are you doing every problem of every worksheet in Math Mammoth? I circle every other. My son swears he hates math so I try to give him some choice in which questions to do (if I'm sure he gets the concept). I think most people only do half the problems with MM :) yes, i only require half the problems. :) if she misses one she has to fix it and do another one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamakelly Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 We are switching to CLE this year too. I need it laid out and easy for me to teach. We've been working on 201 during the summer and it's a great fit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 I second the idea of doing on every other problem (or even fewer if she is getting most of them right). While she doesn't like the curriculum, I would be reluctant to change if she is learning... My daughter told the most amazing, wonderful math teacher I've ever met that she "hates math." This lovely woman proceeded to probe, asking questions like, "can you think of any part of math you dislike less?" until my daughter reluctantly admitted that she didn't dislike word problems that much. The teacher brightened up and said, "Then you'll like my kind of math." My daughter took a 5-week math class with her and a group (that I was careful to make sure included another girl - previously my daughter had for some reason thought of math as a boy thing) and it really turned around her attitude. They focused on problems that are completely outside of the normal curriculum once a week for 90 minutes. I do think you have less of a problem than you realize if your daughter hates math but is able to learn it. Does she need arithmetic support? My daughter hated xtramath (too competitive) but has thrived on Reflex Math (you pay, but it is game based and non-competitive). Then you don't need to be with her for her to get consistent practice. The light turns green on the screen when the child has had enough practice for the day, which for my kids works out to about 20 min/day. How about setting aside one day a week as a math game day? We play a game called Pickomino which is unique because a lot of arithmetic is practiced but it teaches higher order thinking skills. Adults can actually enjoy it, too, because there is strategy involved. Prime Climb might be a good choice, too. I find a lot of math practice games lame, and neither of these are. Finally, my daughter doesn't appear to hate arithmetic anymore because she now is good at it and it isn't much work for her. Emily she likes xtramath and likes word problems. until they actually make her think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Since you've done Righstart, do you still have the cards and the games book? If so, maybe JUST do games. Do games, every day. Start where she is in the different sections, and advance through the games sections. Just the games. No worksheets, just games. See how that goes for a while. sorry, multi quote isn't working. i never got the game book? i keep hearing about it, but it didn't come with my set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Have you thought about using EducationUnboxed as a visual explanation resource? And allowing her to use the rods as a manipulative? My visual kids preferred conceptual/mastery based math over spiral math (and especially over worksheets). My very visual dd8 LOVES playing with the rods, and using them to do math. She makes designs and stories with them - in fact that's all I let her do with them at first. She became so familiar with them that transitioning to using them in arithmetic was easy (thanks to Miquon and EducationUnboxed). I know it's hard with multiple kids, but really math, reading, and writing are critical to future success. I'd be willing to toss science (my favorite) history and art out the window to have more time to help my child understand and gain confidence in these three areas. I actually had to do that to an extent to help two of my kids with writing. we have used it some. my kids love just playing with the rods. we actually just finished a book a c rod riddles that we did during group work time. they really enjoyed that. now i have one called cuisenaire roddles, but it's too hard for the littles so i'll have to work it into my 10yo's schedule. we have also been doing some "fun math" during our group work time for the summer. just some scholastic books- menu math, mini math mysteries, out and about math... they love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Have you tried TeachingTextbooks? It is on dvd and would probably keep your daughters attention if she is a visual learner. i keep hearing about gaps with tt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 looks like i'm off to check out cle! thanks everyone! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 sorry, multi quote isn't working. i never got the game book? i keep hearing about it, but it didn't come with my set. Oh, yeah. For edition 1 it came with the Deluxe starter set for A or B, but it wasn't "required" until C, so the regular A and B sets didn't have it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 is there a placement test for cle? is there a scope and sequence somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie in MS Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I did have a recommendation, but I read that you are concerned with "gaps" of which there will always be, no matter what. If you want a rigorous math like CLE, may I humbly suggest you set her further back than she places. Go to where it is easy for her. Help her to like math as much as she is going to. I don't think she will ever love it, but this method has helped my math hating dd a good deal. She doesn't grab traditional math sheets with gusto and sing of butterflies and unicorns :lol: , but she isn't crying either. :thumbup1: I think some kids just need more time to develop. Once they get it in their heads that math is hard (due to it being too hard for them at some point) they need their opinions changed. Once that happens they can just go step by step without a mental block. :party: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamakelly Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Yes there is a placement test. You can print it off the website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 My math hater likes CLE. We switched 1/2 way through 5th grade. Within the first few lessons he was telling me how happy he was that math wasn't stressful anymore. Word problems in CLE are weak, so I also use Singapore FAN math and Problem Solving, just one or two problems a day. Placement tests are linked here. https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21While you can purchase them when you click, each link has free downloadable files at the bottom. Lots of people have kids place lower in CLE than the program they left. The scope/sequence is a bit different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 My math hater likes CLE. We switched 1/2 way through 5th grade. Within the first few lessons he was telling me how happy he was that math wasn't stressful anymore. Word problems in CLE are weak, so I also use Singapore FAN math and Problem Solving, just one or two problems a day. Placement tests are linked here. https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21While you can purchase them when you click, each link has free downloadable files at the bottom. Lots of people have kids place lower in CLE than the program they left. The scope/sequence is a bit different. THANK YOU for the link!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmama1209 Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 so she knows nothing about decimals, which are on the 3rd grade placement test. i'm thinking dropping her back to 3rd grade when she should be moving into 5th may make her math anxiety worse and confirm her "i'm stupid, i can't do this" thoughts. advice? experiences? thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Can you teach her decimals? I hear that Math Mammoth, I think it is, has some targeted topic books. Maybe get the decimal one, and do that, then jump ahead into whatever part of CLE she would have tested into if not for the decimals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I know I mention this program a lot, but that's because it works well for us, if you want to do something to catch her up. CTC Math The program is online and allows you to choose from any grade level. So, I can give my child a pretest and if it shows that he needs a refresher that is from an earlier subject year, we can just go watch that lesson. If you prefer print materials, you could go with any number of workbooks that cover a single subject area or offer a full grade level of review. For better guidance for the student try looking for "worktexts." I am using A+'s worktexts to review multiplication with my kids right now. Some of the ps textbook publishers offer online helps. Here's a link to one: http://www.mhschool.com/math/mathconnects/grade5/sg5c1lesson1.html You cannot access the e-book, but can use some of the tutorials and exercises. Also, my son's pre-algebra class reviews decimals. So, even though the subject is introduced in 3rd grade it is revisted several times. Finally, if my children don't know something that is covered in a lower grade there is absolutely no reason for them to feel bad about it. I am the teacher, if they don't know it I didn't teach it. That means if there is fault to assign, its mine. I just tell them "You don't know that because I didn't teach it, let's go learn it now." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie in MS Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 so she knows nothing about decimals, which are on the 3rd grade placement test. i'm thinking dropping her back to 3rd grade when she should be moving into 5th may make her math anxiety worse and confirm her "i'm stupid, i can't do this" thoughts. advice? experiences? thoughts? For my dd it didn't make her anxiety worse as all. It basically helped her see that math doesn't have to be hard. Now I agree that if a child doesn't know some math it CAN be cuz mom didn't teach it, or teach it well. However it can also be because the child simply was not mature enough to handle it, at that time, no matter how well it was taught. I told my dd that every single person on this planet--- without exception--- has strengths and weaknesses. She is able to soar with grammar and other subjects, so I make sure to show her that. And she is as creative as all get out, loves to cook, and can come up with the coolest ideas. I show that to her too. Then I tell her that many people who are math whizzes often times stink in handwriting, or grammar. We all just have strengths and weaknesses. I also tell her that it is a blessing to be able to just re-do math in hs, instead of a whole grade level in ps, and to progress at the speed that she needs so that math is not hard. Maybe reading Understood Betsy would help your child if there are any struggles with anxiety in this area. In one chapter she moves from the city school to the one room school house. There she is placed, in each subject, according to her abilities instead of grade level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnMomof7 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 so she knows nothing about decimals, which are on the 3rd grade placement test. i'm thinking dropping her back to 3rd grade when she should be moving into 5th may make her math anxiety worse and confirm her "i'm stupid, i can't do this" thoughts. advice? experiences? thoughts? My DD placed in the 200s at the start of 4th. CLE did wonders for her confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusyMom5 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Last year I had one that was having issues in math. SHe's a very visual learner, and I thought MUS made the most sense for her, but did not like the scope and sequence. I ended up buying the manipulatives, and added more manipulatives. I had CLE, Saxon, Miquon (yes this was for early elementary, but some of it was relevant), and Singapore. ALl because I could not commit to one program and stick with it. After trying so many curriculum, Saxon is the best fit for this kid. CLE was okay, too, but she preferred Saxon. One thing I noticed is that no matter what program I chose, none of them had many manipulatives at this age, so all the visual stuff was on me to provide. That's what I've tried to focus on for now- making it as visual as possible. We do all word problems together on the board. We do every other arithmetic problem (so skip about 7-10 per problem set). My child has confidence again, but still does not like math. I'm currently doing some Saxon, and some Math Mammoth (cause you know I needed to buy ANOTHER program), but she really does not like MM at all- we are remediating and going back over the basic arithmetic again. SHe doesn't like computer games, or I would do those instead for basic arithmetic practice. She'll do flashcards, too if I have them out. Saxon moves so slowly and review so much, I think you could probably go w/ grade level with no problems. Also, the books have 2 grade levels on the book, so book 5/4 is for 4th or 5th grades- explain to your child as needed if you need to back up. I don't always use books the way the author intends, and I do think that whatever you pick, you may have to tweak it to make it fit for your child. I gave up on finding the perfect curriculum, and am just trying to do what is doable for us, and make up my own explanations and manipulatives as we go through the book. I watch a lot of videos on specific topics and try to find the right approach to fit my kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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