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lewelma
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Sigh.  I was just told that my ds cannot take a university class until he is 16.  That it is against the Education Act.  AND that when he does take a single math class, that he must meet the entrance requirements including passing the English exam.  No encouragement AT ALL from the admissions woman, the woman who actually makes the decisions for special admission.  

 

I can't believe it!  Really?!?!  I asked her what I was supposed to do, hire a university professor to privately tutor my son?  She said that it is just in the Act and there was nothing she could do.  It does not even matter that he will miss the date by 6 weeks.  No, he has to be 16 on the first day of term.

 

Well, I called another university, and it is NOT in the Act.  It is just the policy of my local university, and most likely not even an absolute policy.  All I probably need is to get special permission from the Vice Chancellor.  Well, the admissions woman from the local university did not tell me that.  And she IS the one that should know.  She told me that she has NEVER had a student want to do a course before the age of 16.  REALLY?!?!  Never.  I know she has been in this role fore 3 years as I have been working with her since then and she has been equally unhelpful.

 

My ds said "don't they *want* more students like me?"  Apparently not.  sigh.

 

I really hate bureaucracy .  This is set up to be one big headache.

 

Ruth in NZ

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Well, I could sit with him in multivariate calculus, but somehow I doubt that there would any inappropriate content!  

 

He can take the class as a correspondence course at a different lower-ranked university, but really that would not be nearly as fun as actually interacting with live students.

 

By the time he is 16, he will have taken all the 100 level courses and 2 of the 200 level courses.  Do people really not understand that some kids are just moving faster?  

 

Honestly, I think the admissions woman does not like homeschoolers or Americans, so I am doubly sunk.  She is incredibly unhelpful and not encouraging.  

 

What really bothers me is that it is NOT in the Act, and there ARE ways around it, and she refused to tell me any of this.  I very very seriously doubt that there is not a 15 year old taking a foreign language or some sort of computer science course, let alone math.  But the problem is that she IS the person who admits special cases, so unless she is lying to me, there really have been NO 15 year old taking ANY subject at the local university.  Sigh.  I am surrounded my mediocrity.  The TALL POPPY syndrome at work!

 

And English at AS level!?!?!  really?  for a math class.  Come on.  That is ridiculous.  He has the permission of the head of school in maths.  Man this makes me mad. 

 

DS knows a kid who took 5 university classes at age 14-15 last year at Auckland.  He knows this because this kid made the NZ IMO team and was disqualified because he was deemed a full time university student.  It happens.  This woman must be playing me. 

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I'm sorry to hear this. One of the things I've learned is that there is usually a work around. Somewhere. Somehow. Does she have a superior you can cc on email communications? Can you get a letter from the Vice Chancellor? Can the math head intervene somehow? Sometimes people are just ignorant or plain don't care. It  happens here all the time. There are at least a handful of younger students (tweens) at DS's community college but the admissions folk are still ignorant about the policies and we parents have to do all the legwork in order to make it happen, including reading up on the law. What really helped in our case was to have DS do the talking and me refusing to engage when the officials turn to me instead of to him for answers to questions. It really is ridiculous about needing the English test...this happens here too...never mind that a kid places into calculus at 10 or 11 years old, or has stellar SAT scores (and ETA wants to take only math courses)...they still need to pass the CC's English exam. (ETA: I totally get why they would want regular students to pass the English exam...we didn't have an issue with that).

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I am sorry they make this so difficult.

 

This said, our university also requires dually enrolled high school students to meet the admissions criteria for regular students (which include test scores) and holds DE students are held to higher standards when it comes to admission.

 

I hope you get it worked out.

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that's totally untrue. 

 

DO you have STAR up there?  http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/aqua/star/ I know of a 14 year old using it.  They accepted the application I made for my son (that I accidentally le tthe birthdate off), but ultimately I decided not to go down that path just yet.  The 14 year old received an application to study full time after completing her first year of Star.  ooh.. math 199 is offered by distance. 

 

I should add - I took my first paper at 14 at your local university, then transferred down here.  She's lying.

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I don't know how it works there, but here I have made an appt with the registrar when the admissions' officer was adamant about it not being possible due to age and grade level. I created a file of test scores ( SAT subject, SAT/ACT, and AP) as well as his transcript. (In hindsight, having course descriptions and book lists probably would have been a good idea. I didn't need them though.) The registrar admitted him as a special student through the continuing ed dept. He was not considered a DE student. (That was a huge blessing. DE students have a restricted list of gen ed courses they can enroll in whereas as a special student he had no restrictions except meeting the pre-reqs.)

 

His age did become an issue a couple of times and the university prevented him from participating in certain things (like a research trip to Kitt Peak bc he was a minor. They would not budge on that one.)

 

Fwiw, here he had to demonstrate advanced test scores in both math and English. He had to meet the same requirements as an accelerated high school student trying to seek admittance. (Many of the unis here do have policies in place for high school srs wanting to seek early admittance. These standards are higher than regular admission standards. This uni, for example, did already have this policy. He exceeded their requirements both in coursework and test scores. The only section of their DE requirements he didn't meet was grade level and age.)

 

Can depts have any influence over admissions? Another possibility might to be to meet with the math dept first and if they are open to your ds being a student, ask them if they might be willing to meet with the Vice Chancellor.

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Well, I could sit with him in multivariate calculus, but somehow I doubt that there would any inappropriate content!  

 

 

 

Here it wouldn't be inappropriate content but inappropriate contact.  Anyone who works with a child needs police checks, but university staff don't need that....  Hence the need for a chaperone.

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Wow, that sounds so frustrating! English for maths? What the heck?!

 

Dd will be considered a Continuing Education student this fall at the university. She has to take a foreign language placement test for Arabic. When she takes calc next year (after AP) she'll take the math placement test. Should she ever want to take an English class (:lol:), she'd have to take an English placement test.

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Can depts have any influence over admissions? Another possibility might to be to meet with the math dept first and if they are open to your ds being a student, ask them if they might be willing to meet with the Vice Chancellor.

 

This was my first thought too. I bet a professor at the school would love to have your ds in class and could help you w/ the process. 

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Ruth, we had an obstructionist in the office when we first went in. The secretary did not want to see my kid on campus. Go around her. Seriously. Contact someone above her, vice chancellor or whoever has more authority (which will be almost everyone). Sign up for the math entrance and have him take it. Then make an appointment with the highest level person there and bring results and your son with you. Let your son do the talking. I can see her point if you're trying to gain full admission, but there's likely a way around for a class or two.

I had to sit in the hallway for every class, but my kid was 9. I'm guessing you may have to remain on campus until yours turns 16. Perhaps you can hire someone to chaperone for you for 6 weeks.

Good luck.

Eta: liability IS a real issue. The admin lady probably sees herself as a gatekeeper. We did cc, but when I pushed admissions at the uni (UW), I was told that in fact there's no true lower age limit. Admittedly, UW does have a program for younger kids and may have an adjusted policy as a result.

Eta more: we also went the route of approaching a prof in the math dept first. The prof took our request to the dept meeting and the dept was on board before ds even tested at the school. I think that was a good move because then the math folks weren't surprised.

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All of DD's things either are via distance learning or I'm there, too. For lab sections, we do have it worked out where I can leave and she can call me when she's done, but even on a very, very small campus they don't want her walking across it alone.

 

FWIW, at Davidson Academy, students taking university classes below age 16 are paired with and escorted by a college honors program student (who is taking the same class) for liability reasons (That and they've found that the honors program regular admission kids who are paired with DA kids, statistically, do better. Apparently competition with a 12 yr old is a real incentive to hit the books).

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One campus that DS applied to insisted that I remain on campus for liability reasons. The campus DS is currently in had no such worries although he applied to both at the same age.

 

The first campus had very welcoming admin folk...they cheered when he placed at the top level of their admission exams and one even pumped his hand up and down in congratulatory enthusiasm. The current campus just took it in their stride because I'm sure they have quite a few younger students doing the same thing...however, the current campus seems to employ very clueless staff or maybe their staff turnover is high...they move like molasses when you ask them questions and are very afraid to take responsibility for their answers...every question gets deferred to a superior for an answer. We were patient and worked with them and extended a "goodwill" to all sort of attitude but other parents I know are facing quite a bit of frustration.

 

It sounds like this lady Ruth is encountering has been in her position a while so perhaps she *should* know what the law is but maybe she has a personal grudge or bias? I hope not but it sounds like it from the OP. In that case, hopefully a superior authority can step in. Would your DS be willing to do the talking? I have seen from personal experience how much of an effect this has on admissions officials.

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Wow, that sounds so frustrating! English for maths? What the heck?!

 

 

I don't know about there, but here there is not a tradition of taking individual courses at university.  You either go and take a degree or you don't.  So to enter university you need to show a full education, not just pre-requisites for the particular course.

 

Just wondering if that is part of the issue...

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Thanks guys for all the encouragement and ideas. 

 

We met the head of school for mathematics last October.  He looked at ds's portfolio of proofs, talked to him, and placed him out of four 100 level classes on the spot. He has been wonderfully encouraging and kind.  When we recontacted him again this week, he offered to talk to the admissions department, but I did not want to put him out so said I would do it.  Boy was I wrong.  I've written him back to get his advice on where to go from here.

 

What really bothers me is that no one ever told us about the English requirement.  I've been working with this admissions woman on and off for 3 years.  We are just lucky that in an effort to make ds competitive for Australian National University, I put him in the Correspondence School two months ago.  And we are just lucky that we asked the correspondence school people if he could stretch out 11th grade English over a two years period.  And we were just lucky that the English teacher made an exception and said yes because the CEO of the Correspondence School asked them to be accommodating.  And we we just lucky that the CEO got involved because I happened to work with one of his friends 19 years ago when I was teaching school and this guy is now a head person in the Ministry of Education.   All this to say, we are just very *lucky* that ds should be able to pound out the English requirement in time to meet his math needs.  But why is it reasonable to expect a 9th grader to be doing 11th grade English when all he wants to take is a Calculus class?  Too bad we can't hand them some 2 page proofs to demonstrate his ability to communicate! Clearly asynchrony is not something that is allowed!    

 

I guess my biggest frustration is with myself.  I thought I had this thing down.  We had talked to the head of school for mathematics and got his blessing.  It seemed all good.  I talked to the admissions woman back in October, and she never told me about the English exam or the 16 year old thing. And I did not know to ask. Every time I get on the phone with her, she does NOT want to talk to me.  In fact one time she said just that. I feel like the guidance councilor aspect of the homeschooling gig is just really tricky.  Now, at the last minute we have to change our English plan, and given that I can't get a straight answer, I think that ds will have to take a NZ math exam, which we thought he had gotten out of by getting the evaluation from the head of school. The cut off for signing up for the exam is Thursday.  Sigh.  

 

I just feel like I'm bumbling through this and it really makes me feel incompetent. It feels like I am just lucking out at each stage and that one of these days I won't and I'll have made a big screw up.  It is a pretty icky feeling.

 

Ruth in NZ 

 

 

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I don't know about there, but here there is not a tradition of taking individual courses at university.  You either go and take a degree or you don't.  So to enter university you need to show a full education, not just pre-requisites for the particular course.

 

Just wondering if that is part of the issue...

 

Probably.  But I was also told some time back, that there are three fields where individual university classes are more common in NZ: math, computing, and foreign language.  My guess is that none of these require maturity gained through just living - like English or Political Science for example. 

 

But really the problem is this particular woman I am working with, because she is clearly wrong. I know this because I called the other university and the first woman I spoke to said "oh, let me check the under-16 policy and how it works." Clearly, she had dealt with this before.  Putting on my empathy hat, my guess is that the woman I am working with who is in charge of discretionary entrance (which includes homeschoolers) is very tired of dealing with special snowflakes.  She is the one who works with kids who don't have the standard exams to get in in a normal way.  As she told me once, 'I can't tell you what your ds needs to have for discretionary entrance, because it is *discretionary*'  Yes, ok, I see your point.  But boy, that is not helpful. 

 

There is clearly a way around it and my dh suggested I make a face-to-face appointment with the Vice Chancellor and just get it done. He said I should definitely quit calling people, and go walk over there.

 

However, I am not going to deal with this woman again.  DH can do it if he wants to, but I think she is purposefully being obstructionist. 

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Ruth, be kind to yourself. You are not incompetent. There is a reason why these things are tricky. It is because the situation is very unusual. Your son is unusual. Some people can't deal with that. It doesn't mean you are getting lucky or are bumbling about. It means that you are making things happen although you might not realize it. You are his champion and enabler. It is not going to be easy but you will figure it out. :grouphug:

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Ruth, be kind to yourself. You are not incompetent. There is a reason why these things are tricky. It is because the situation is very unusual. Your son is unusual. Some people can't deal with that. It doesn't mean you are getting lucky or are bumbling about. It means that you are making things happen although you might not realize it. You are his champion and enabler. It is not going to be easy but you will figure it out. :grouphug:

 

Thanks quark. What I really need is a NZ board like this one.  I read all the stuff on the high school board, and think 'this does not apply to me.' I just don't even know what questions to ask. 

 

But I'm sure you know what I mean when I say: I don't feel like my ds is unusual.  He is just my son.  I know nothing different. He has not been in school, and we have not had people telling us that things aren't possible.  We just study together, and giggle, and fight.  So when I run up against what feels like some sort of bigotry against gifted kids, I'm taken aback.   

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But I'm sure you know what I mean when I say: I don't feel like my ds is unusual.  He is just my son.  I know nothing different. He has not been in school, and we have not had people telling us that things aren't possible.  We just study together, and giggle, and fight.  So when I run up against what feels like some sort of bigotry against gifted kids, I'm taken aback.   

 

I know the feeling. I don't feel like mine is unusual because well, he isn't in our local context. There are so many kids here, younger ones too, who are much more advanced. But even then, there is a lot of bigotry and ignorance amongst folks who are in the education industry...news articles about pressured kids are not helping either...it's a twisted situation where some kids are ending their lives due to the expectations and others are wilting and bored because they are not given the chance to chase the opportunities just when they need them. And parents are always being judged for hovering etc too. Sigh.

 

It takes a lot of deep breaths to remain sane and to provide my DS the right amount of what he needs, and some of that in our case is not about academics but about living a good, productive, balanced life. There are going to be mistakes, lots of them. I am probably going to miss deadlines or not know what to research when...but I don't need that stress to affect my DS. I think your study together, giggle (and maybe the fights too :D) is what is going to make the true difference in his life. He is going to know that he has a supportive mom who will be there beside him...that counts for so much.

 

Take care. I hope you find that support group. Better still, perhaps you could create one? (It will be exhausting to juggle I know!). But you can't be the only one there who needs it right? :grouphug: again.

 

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Ruth, I don't know if you are on facebook...I searched and found a page for the New Zealand Centre for Gifted Education. I don't know if this is a helpful first step for you in finding a local board. I joined facebook expressly for the reason to find community (because more and more people here are on fb now vs yahoo/google/email list groups). I helped co-found a private group specifically for gifted homeschooling to college in my local area. I had help from a facebook-savvy friend so it didn't feel extremely exhausting to set up. Suggesting this as one way for you to create your own community.

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Send your husband instead.  That particular lady might had met more than her fair share of quarrelsome/pushy mothers.  She may also have her own emotional baggage.  We had a "war of the roses" encounter at my kids music school last week and a lady (mother waiting for her kid) who was there escalate tensions. it was entertaining in a bad sense and hopefully the couple isn't headed for divorce.

 

it's a twisted situation where some kids are ending their lives due to the expectations and others are wilting and bored because they are not given the chance to chase the opportunities just when they need them. And parents are always being judged for hovering etc too. Sigh.

 

 

Sometimes the expectations and what the child wants don't match (abilities vs passion, Palo Alto High kids hangout at one of my fav hangout and they talk). Seen too many IRL helicopter parents to know why people are turned off unfortunately. What hurts the kids is that there are so many test prep centers around my area that people end up assuming most results are due to test prep.

 

There are people in my district office who are just counting down to retirement. Policies change are to lessen their own work load and kids of all abilities get affected.

 

 

Take care. I hope you find that support group. Better still, perhaps you could create one? (It will be exhausting to juggle I know!). But you can't be the only one there who needs it right? :grouphug: again.

Ă¢â‚¬â€¹

I think kiwik is having a tough time while Grover is used to working the system.

 

One of my support group is a closed group on Facebook.  My ex-classmates from the gifted program who are now dealing with their own kids.  However some have kids who didn't get into gifted programs and they find it tough too. (Some seems to find it hard to balance being happy for others and feeling insecure and they come across as envious)

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What hurts the kids is that there are so many test prep centers around my area that people end up assuming most results are due to test prep.

 

Offtopic: I find this especially troubling about the South Bay Area (possibly the Peninsula too?). There is a distinct feeling of stress and hurry when I visit this section of the region. Thankfully the test prep culture has not spread throughout the SF Bay Area yet (and hopefully won't). ETA: I forgot about San Ramon...happened to be hanging out there over a few days in summer and was struck by how many test prep centers there were within a mile or two+ radius.

 

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Offtopic: I find this especially troubling about the South Bay Area (possibly the Peninsula too?). There is a distinct feeling of stress and hurry when I visit this section of the region.

 

It is very bad in Palo Alto, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Fremont areas, not as bad yet in Menlo Park, Mountain View. US101 in the morning commute (8-10am) has a very stressed feel to it.  People are just recklessly cutting into other lanes and there were quite a few accidents. Lots of non-competitive parents I know who are worried about the state of education, too fast for some too slow for others in the same household. It is actually the "slower" child that the parent wants to pull out of the pressure cooker to homeschool.

 

ETA:

Stress level is a lot higher back home.  The helicopter parent syndrome is a lot worse too. Going to university there earlier won't be that hard paperwork wise since lawsuits aren't common and the staff at the registrar's office doesn't have to worry about being sued unless they make any derogatory remarks.

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What really helped in our case was to have DS do the talking and me refusing to engage when the officials turn to me instead of to him for answers to questions.

A couple of you have mentioned that is was better when the student spoke to the officials. Just out of curiosity, why do you think that is? Is it because the officials don't like dealing with people they perceive as helicopter parents? Or some other reason?

 

What a frustrating situation, Ruth. I hope that it will work out in the end and you can prove her wrong.

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In our case I believe it was partly ds' ability to interact appropriately in a professional setting, answering questions thoughtfully and proving he could articulate his ideas and opinions. I also do think there was an element of probing to see whose idea it was to go the cc route (vs high school in our case, not an option for Ruth's ds). But mostly I had the sense that the cc president was feeling out the maturity level and making a personal call whether to throw the weight of his support behind ds.

 

In the end, all systems are made of people.

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A couple of you have mentioned that is was better when the student spoke to the officials. Just out of curiosity, why do you think that is? Is it because the officials don't like dealing with people they perceive as helicopter parents?

They want to know if it is child driven or parent driven. Whether the child want to be there or were "ordered" to be there by their parents. Especially in my area, parents driven is very common. The child gets "drag along".

 

When strangers see how big size my oldest is, they think he is an 8th grader instead of a 10 year old so they question him as if he is going to be in high school :P Sometimes I get annoyed by the person's relentless questioning and let the person know he is 10.

 

My kids cello teacher interviewed my kids without parents in the room. She wanted to know where the motivation lie, the kids or the parents. Most of the time it is the parents pushing the kids into music lessons and competitions.

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Lewelma, is there any chance that a good STAT score might have a bearing on admission into the actual institution? http://stat.acer.edu.au

 

It does not test mathematics at a level high enough for admission into a mathematics degree, but it sounds like you're already in with that department - maybe the STAT would help the admissions office tick some boxes?

 

Or is there a NZ equivalent of this exam?

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A couple of you have mentioned that is was better when the student spoke to the officials. Just out of curiosity, why do you think that is? Is it because the officials don't like dealing with people they perceive as helicopter parents? Or some other reason?.

It is a university. University education is for adults, not children. There is no interaction between a university and a parent except the bill. The student is 100% responsible for ownership over their own education.

 

A student who needs assistance in communicating with profs, figuring out the system, etc is going to be seen as unprepared for that environment. A younger student needs to demonstrate maturity and self-motivation.

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I think it's because when the kid does the talking, it's obvious the kid is the one who wants it, not the parent. What impresses people most about DD at conferences and in lectures isn't that she's there-it's that she asks questions. in conversation they may start talking to me, but they end up talking to her. It makes a difference. There's one "tiger mom" who keeps trying to push her DD to do the kind of things my DD does-and fails because, ultimately, her DD has no desire to be there, and it shows.

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A couple of you have mentioned that is was better when the student spoke to the officials. Just out of curiosity, why do you think that is? Is it because the officials don't like dealing with people they perceive as helicopter parents? Or some other reason?

 

What a frustrating situation, Ruth. I hope that it will work out in the end and you can prove her wrong.

 

Previous posters have explained most of it but since you quoted me...

 

I particularly agree with 8filltheheart. To expand on her examples...it's not just about speaking to officials. I can understand situations where some kids are so very capable but not yet ready to advocate for themselves...however, there needs to be at least basic communication skills where a student must know how to ask and answer questions, approach profs for explanations, and navigate the college/ university campus on his/ her own. So the ability to hold your own with officials in a conversation is a good first step towards that. 

 

There's so much involved in these experiences...what if the parent is not able to pick up the child on time after a class? Will the child panic or know what to do? What if a professor says this after the class, "I am afraid I can't answer your question right now in the classroom but if you would like to walk with me to my office, we can discuss the problem on the way." (and the child has no way of informing the parent waiting in the car/ has to find his way back to the car, know the courtesies of letting the prof go to his next class without taking up too much if his time etc). What if something goes wrong or the college needs clarification with the application and the child is required to come in to speak to counselors (who usually will not entertain parents in the room)? Etc.

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Adding: The teacher(s) made it clear that communication would be between teacher and student. That included email, online components, before/after class and office hours. I know brighter, more capable kids than mine who wouldn't thrive in a college setting for non-academic reasons. There is also the quirk of advanced kid to dive deeply into passions, but when done, move on. A component of maturity in a college setting is to keep up with the work even if it's <boring, shallow, easy, hard, fallen by the wayside bc of new passion> done. The record is permanent. This requires the kind of self-motivation that is not passion driven, but due to a solid work ethic. I 100% credit starting ds at AoPS at 7 for this trait (he had worked through elem curric so it was correct placement). He learned grit. Responsible profs and admins understand this. Even PA Homeschoolers pointed this out when I asked about their AP calc. I would look at is as a good sign if the Uni screens for such maturity, as it means they are hoping for success.

 

Ruth: your ds has more than proven he has what it takes for success at Uni. I think the admissions woman you are dealing with is standing in your way, not looking for a best option. That's why you should stop dealing with her and go above her. It's still a good sign if they want to talk to your ds and screen him.

 

And to dmmettler: DA seems like such a good option for your kid.

 

I'm thinking about this a lot lately as we are trying to figure out what to do next.

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I guess my biggest frustration is with myself.  I thought I had this thing down.  We had talked to the head of school for mathematics and got his blessing.  It seemed all good.  I talked to the admissions woman back in October, and she never told me about the English exam or the 16 year old thing. And I did not know to ask. Every time I get on the phone with her, she does NOT want to talk to me.  In fact one time she said just that. I feel like the guidance councilor aspect of the homeschooling gig is just really tricky.  Now, at the last minute we have to change our English plan, and given that I can't get a straight answer, I think that ds will have to take a NZ math exam, which we thought he had gotten out of by getting the evaluation from the head of school. The cut off for signing up for the exam is Thursday.  Sigh.  

 

I just feel like I'm bumbling through this and it really makes me feel incompetent. It feels like I am just lucking out at each stage and that one of these days I won't and I'll have made a big screw up.  It is a pretty icky feeling.

 

Ruth in NZ 

 

 

(Edited: TMI)

 

Ruth, I empathized with your statement that you were "bumbling through this" because that's how I've been feeling as I've been going through something similar with my DS.  Over and over I've wondered if I should have contacted a different person first, or not contacted someone and just signed DS up for classes - although that wouldn't have worked either because, while I can provide a community college transcript, I can't give them a high school transcript - or ....  Oh, I don't know.  And I hate the run around and the rules being different each time I talk to a different person.  It's horribly frustrating.

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:grouphug: This whole thread makes me so sad.  I have no advice for you Ruth, but just wanted to let you know that I'm sending you a big virtual hug.  Keep your chin up, I'm sure that even though it feels awful right now, you will be able to get him exactly what he needs.  Moms kind of have superpowers that way - even when we feel like we are failing.

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This requires the kind of self-motivation that is not passion driven, but due to a solid work ethic. I 100% credit starting ds at AoPS at 7 for this trait (he had worked through elem curric so it was correct placement). He learned grit.

 

Not picking on you, but mulling over college output norms and expectations and screening for maturity.

Building work ethic must start somewhere, right? Unless a student has excellent executive functioning, developing grit/work ethic necessitates a lot of falling/picking up, whatever the age.

 

I can hazard a guess that some age appropriate college students would probably go through a similar learning curve (wrt goal setting/organising/work ethic) as a much younger HG student in a college setting. But, are there more expectations/pressures on the younger student to be self reliant v/s the age appropriate one? Or rather...are we (as parents/teachers/admin) more patient with chronologically placed students than hg/pg (younger) ones?

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Not picking on you, but mulling over college output norms and expectations and screening for maturity.

Building work ethic must start somewhere, right? Unless a student has excellent executive functioning, developing grit/work ethic necessitates a lot of falling/picking up, whatever the age.

 

I can hazard a guess that some age appropriate college students would probably go through a similar learning curve (wrt goal setting/organising/work ethic) as a much younger HG student in a college setting. But, are there more expectations/pressures on the younger student to be self reliant v/s the age appropriate one? Or rather...are we (as parents/teachers/admin) more patient with chronologically placed students than hg/pg (younger) ones?

 

I can't speak for others but I know for sure that I do "forget" DS's age sometimes. It's so easy to think of him as the "older aged" kid that he is intellectually vs the age he really is. It doesn't help that he has always been tall for his age. Yes, I admit to forgetting his age and losing patience with him.

 

We did wait till he was physically/emotionally more ready though. His falling and picking up happened at home through outsourcing to online vendors. He spent three years at home with online classes first and that was a great incubator like experience for him. He could have accessed community college classes sooner than 11. But he might not have spoken up to officials when he was 9 or 10. He would have probably turned to me for guidance and imho that would have not been ideal and wouldn't have built his confidence. Although I get impatient with his asynchrony (it felt extreme to me up till about a year or so ago), I think I had enough sense not to rush him. I strongly believe in gut feel and my gut feel about CC when he was younger just wasn't right. We also waited till he was ready to place into calculus because I knew that his fellow students will be more serious and that it will help ready him for prof expectations...unfortunately, for math, CC isn't a good fit for him at all and he is self studying math this coming sem. When he did access CC at 11, the only area that was just right was the time management aspect (particularly for lab science...one experience that really helped him to grow). But even that wasn't really a challenge for math. And by the second half of the semester, he had already learned the trick of managing his time well for lab reports. Speaking to officials or profs or fellow students definitely wasn't a challenge anymore. In fact, the higher number of older people he had to deal with, the better he performed in the situation. His favorite class was the music class where his band members included three 18yos and three over 50-yos.

 

It's quite hard to find that exact fit of readiness-challenge when they are such a quick study...just when I think he is ready for something, he actually exceeds that level pretty quickly. Any non-readiness in DS's case was quickly resolved from the day he learned to fill in his own CC application form. I helped him verbally in parts he wasn't sure about but the dealing with the officials part was his area. I did talk to him in the car to say that it's totally fine to make mistakes and that it's totally fine to ask for help. I've drummed this into him from his online class days (because he used to think he shouldn't need to ask for help). It proceeded quite smoothly (thankful for that) from application day on and now he won't let me take care of things for him if he can help it (oh I am still tempted for sure! I am still a control freak!).

 

He is not perfectly ready all around in every area (and he chooses classes at the CC accordingly)...but he definitely was more than ready in some areas by the time he started (despite my worries). The trick was to gently hand control over to him (as difficult as that is for me, it's the most effective strategy in his case).

 

Just one data point...interested in others' experiences too.

 

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Not picking on you, but mulling over college output norms and expectations and screening for maturity.

Building work ethic must start somewhere, right? Unless a student has excellent executive functioning, developing grit/work ethic necessitates a lot of falling/picking up, whatever the age.

 

I can hazard a guess that some age appropriate college students would probably go through a similar learning curve (wrt goal setting/organising/work ethic) as a much younger HG student in a college setting. But, are there more expectations/pressures on the younger student to be self reliant v/s the age appropriate one? Or rather...are we (as parents/teachers/admin) more patient with chronologically placed students than hg/pg (younger) ones?

In terms of college expectations, in my experience, no, there are not lower expectations for age typical college students. If a student doesn't have the organizational skills or the work ethic for success in the college classroom, the result is not coaching or professorial encouragement. The result is however their inability to function impacts their grade. There is no directed support system. The support system exists (office hours, tutoring center, etc), but it all has to be accessed under the student's own direction. If the student doesn't keep up, turn in all assignments, etc, no one is going to ask why. They will simply receive 0s.

 

Fwiw, I think that is 100% appropriate. The system is for adult level education and that is how adults should function. Honestly, most of the self-management skills should be being worked on during middle school and mastered by high school. When a student walks into a college classroom, you as parent have zero access to what your student does or does not do unless your student gives it to you. (And that would be in terms of accessing their student acct and being able to see blackboard assignments, online syllabi, etc.) Profs are not going to speak to you. You as a parent have zero rights to any student information.....bc legally the system is designed for adults.

 

We paid an exorbitant fee for on-campus supports for our Aspie ds. But, even those supports were limited to physically being present while he went to,office hours and encouraging effective communication. The support person could not ask the questions for him, etc. They would encourage him to use his accommodations, but if he didn't request his private room or extra time for his exam, he wouldn't get it. They couldn't request it for him. So even with documented disabilities that allowed an on-campus advocate, the motivation had to come from him and he still had to do the actual processes himself. If he didn't, it didn't happen.

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Not picking on you, but mulling over college output norms and expectations and screening for maturity.

Building work ethic must start somewhere, right? Unless a student has excellent executive functioning, developing grit/work ethic necessitates a lot of falling/picking up, whatever the age.

 

I can hazard a guess that some age appropriate college students would probably go through a similar learning curve (wrt goal setting/organising/work ethic) as a much younger HG student in a college setting. But, are there more expectations/pressures on the younger student to be self reliant v/s the age appropriate one? Or rather...are we (as parents/teachers/admin) more patient with chronologically placed students than hg/pg (younger) ones?

 

Of course some regular age college students lack the executive function/work ethic, whatever. They will fail, often repeatedly, until they get their act together. Being college ready implies having the executive functioning and work ethic needed to succeed - the building up should happen before.

Colleges do not "screen for maturity", just for academic preparation. My DD started dual enrollment at the university at age 14, after submitting test scores that would have qualified her for admission as a regular freshman. There are no tools for "maturity screening" in place at any college I am aware of - it is up to the students to make sure they are prepared in this respect. If not, they will suffer the consequences.

Colleges bend over backwards these days to make it easy for students to succeed, since retention and graduation rates are important numbers - but the student who needs help has to avail himself of that help. There are plenty of opportunities for support: counseling, tutoring, help sessions, office hours. In many places, faculty are required to reach out to students who underperform and inform them that they failed a test or missed class (because, like, the student can't possibly be expected to know that he skipped class for two weeks or received an F on a test that was returned... it is completely ridiculous).

None of these, however, differentiate by student age. Instructors do not know whether any of their students is younger than typical, unless it is very obvious. All students are treated the same, and there are not any more expectations or pressures put on younger students. They are expected to be able to do the things college expects from adult students and won't receive special treatment - as it should be.

 

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Regentrude, I believe ebunny was responding to my post where my ds was screened for maturity. In our case I feel it was quite appropriate. I did not expect or ask for ds to be treated differently. He placed into calculus, but we had him do precalc so that he could use the time to learn how to navigate the system. Trust me, I did not want to sit in a hallway every day. Ds pushed this and I followed his lead. Fwiw he is a quiet, mostly soft spoken introvert who is an utter force of nature. I don't feel picked on, but it is hard to talk about and not feel judged. He was and is ready to head off to college. I'm not ready for it. I'm offerring details about our experience in hopes that it helps someone else, but I'm blindly stumbling through this too. We did a quarter and found, like quark mentioned, that the math was not the best fit academically (in that he wants more depth and challenge), but it is a good way to 'break into' the environment and prove he can handle the other aspects which require EF and motivation. It's not an ideal situation at all. What do kids do who want to learn with others in a live setting at their level (interlochen and proof school are not in the realm of financial reality for us)? We went back to online and self teaching this year. That's not ideal either when you have a kid who develops bad habits in an attempt to find challenge. In some ways his work ethic has deteriorated. That whole too easy-too hard window is still narrow. Sigh.

 

Ruth's situation is different and I don't want to step off course. Her ds is a thread shy of meeting the (fake) age requirement per the admissions woman's declaration. It would still be, IMO, fine to screen for maturity. Maybe I will feel differently when my kids are older, as 8filltheheart and Regentrude do speak from experience. It doesn't sound like that's the issue. It sounds like Ruth had great support from higher up and has been getting the run around and needs to side step the admission block. I love that I can 'hear' you think through this, Ruth. You do such an amazing job and are far from incompetent! I chimed in mostly to encoursge you to go call in the supportive resources. I'm maybe 10% as functional as most of you teaching your AL kids, so I guess it's one of those 'if we could do it anyone can' things. Drumming up support from the top, that is. I'm guilty of, and thus bothered by, the tendency of moms of ALs to not want to stand out or be a bother.

 

Quark: I'm thrilled to hear cc is going well and your ds has found good courses!

 

Please don't quote anything since I'll probably freak out and delete some personal stuff later.

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Fwiw, I think that is 100% appropriate. The system is for adult level education and that is how adults should function. Honestly, most of the self-management skills should be being worked on during middle school and mastered by high school. When a student walks into a college classroom, you as parent have zero access to what your student does or does not do unless your student gives it to you. (And that would be in terms of accessing their student acct and being able to see blackboard assignments, online syllabi, etc.) Profs are not going to speak to you. You as a parent have zero rights to any student information.....bc legally the system is designed for adults.

 

 

This post is not meant to be confrontational, rather a questioning of the norms that drive college education.

 

 

fwiw, It is interesting to me that the frontal lobe of the brain responsible for the executive functioning skills matures only in the late 20s and in some cases, 30s ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/ ).

 

Personally, I wouldn't deem 18 yr olds as adults, but that's just me. (I do know that legally they are considered adults). And education systems around the world seem to hinge on this magic age.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the normative notion of undergrad students (< mid/late 20s) as adults and hence must be self-reliant is an assumption which has no scientific basis.

 

Furthermore, so much of this is cultural. Some societies (mine for instance) don't consider children as grown ups until they have children of their own. :001_smile: My college admin/profs (undergrad and grad) were/are willing to involve parents when needed. (btw.. I'm not suggesting it as an ideal!)

 

 

@regentrude- 'maturity screening' was a term used by a pp, not me.   Not disputing your points, but maybe your experience (some universities are structured to enable most, if not all, students to pass) is not the whole picture?

What about some other univs build their reputation on designing the course in such a way so as to sieve students out in the first 2 years. (the elite univs). What happens to a gifted child who does not have the executive functioning skills in that situation, if at all.. is his/her age considered..?

 

ETA 1:  Before I am misunderstood, I am for providing more support/handholding (relative to older peers) to gifted younger students specifically to organizing, planning, meeting deadlines and managing time.

 

ETA 2: I'll stop posting here as I've derailed the thread enough. :D  Please PM me if you wish to respond to my post.

 

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@regentrude- 'maturity screening' was a term used by a pp, not me.   Not disputing your points, but maybe your experience (some universities are structured to enable most, if not all, students to pass) is not the whole picture?

What about some other univs build their reputation on designing the course in such a way so as to sieve students out in the first 2 years. (the elite univs).

I do not believe that elite universities design their courses to sieve out students in the first two years and have not seen any evidence of this. They are highly selective and only admit those students whom they deem very likely to succeed. A colllege does not build its reputation by failing large numbers of admitted students, since retention and graduate rate are factors in the rankings that generate reputation. The extremely selective schools tend to have extremely high retention rates

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2015/06/30/10-colleges-where-freshmen-are-most-likely-to-come-back

which does not mesh with your assumption that students are actively weeded out.

 

What happens in less selective schools that admit a large portion of students of very differing abilities is that a certain portion of students turns out to be unable to fulfill the expectations and will fail foundational math and science courses. I teach such a class at a public university, and every semester about 20% of the students fail and need to retake the course. This is not an active attempt to weed out anybody, but due to the fact that roughly this portion of students is not able to perform at the required level.

 

 

 

What happens to a gifted child who does not have the executive functioning skills in that situation, if at all.. is his/her age considered..?

 

I have not seen any evidence that there young students are given a bonus for being younger. They are held to the same standards. It has been reiterated time and time again that admissions do not give bonus points to younger applicants, and that parents should be very careful when making the decision to graduate kids at an earlier age, because they will be competing wioth studnets of regular age. There are no special considerations or admissions.

I would assume that, at a university level, younger students who are enrolled will not be given any special treatment either - nor can they, since instructors have to be careful to avoid inequalities in the way students are treated.

 

So, the gifted student who does not have the executive functions needs his parents to recognize that he may not be capable of succeeding at university.

The exception is a deficit in executive function that is not caused by age but so severe that it is classified as a disability; in this situation, any student, irrespective of age, is entitled to accommodations under the ADA.

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Lewelma, I'm with those who think you should contact someone to help you bypass the admissions person. A professor maybe.

 

For those of you with younger kids doing advanced math, back in the early 1980s one of my brothers took university math classes with an 11 year old. I don't know if he lived on campus but he was sort of the older kids' mascot (in a good way). He was treated like a younger brother and they all had a lot of fun together. Anyway, he finished his PhD and eventually taught math at Princeton, IIRC. I don't know if he's still there but the last I heard, he was very happy and enjoying teaching.

 

 

**************

 

My youngest son's university, Northwestern U, allows students to give their parents online access to classes, grades, to-do items, and financial aid.

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This post is not meant to be confrontational, rather a questioning of the norms that drive college education.

 

 

fwiw, It is interesting to me that the frontal lobe of the brain responsible for the executive functioning skills matures only in the late 20s and in some cases, 30s ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/ ).

 

Personally, I wouldn't deem 18 yr olds as adults, but that's just me. (I do know that legally they are considered adults). And education systems around the world seem to hinge on this magic ag e.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the normative notion of undergrad students (< mid/late 20s) as adults and hence must be self-reliant is an assumption which has no scientific basis.

 

Furthermore, so much of this is cultural. Some societies (mine for instance) don't consider children as grown ups until they have children of their own. :001_smile: My college admin/profs (undergrad and grad) were/are willing to involve parents when needed. (btw.. I'm not suggesting it as an ideal!)

 

 

@regentrude- 'maturity screening' was a term used by a pp, not me. Not disputing your points, but maybe your experience (some universities are structured to enable most, if not all, students to pass) is not the whole picture?

What about some other univs build their reputation on designing the course in such a way so as to sieve students out in the first 2 years. (the elite univs). What happens to a gifted child who does not have the executive functioning skills in that situation, if at all.. is his/her age considered..?

 

ETA 1: Before I am misunderstood, I am for providing more support/handholding (relative to older peers) to gifted younger students specifically to organizing, planning, meeting deadlines and managing time.

 

ETA 2: I'll stop posting here as I've derailed the thread enough. :D Please PM me if you wish to respond to my post.

Universities are businesses. They have specific requirements for admission. Age matters bc of legal liabilities. Test scores matter bc that is their screening method. It doesn't mean I agree with them. It just means that is just the reality of the situation.

 

I don't find Ruth's situation all that unusual. Those requirements have been ones we have seen at every university we have used for DE. It is definitely frustrating for asynchronous individuals (adults as well.). It is worth the effort to see if there are ways to make it work, but it does not mean that the outcome will be the one you want.

 

Fwiw, I do disagree that the maturity required for independent academic functioning on a college campus is even close to being the maturity displayed by most adults in their mid-20s. There is nothing required in terms of self-regulating at the collegiate level that a bright "self-responsible" middle schooler is incapable of achieving. If you are discussing EF deficits, then that is a completely different issue. (Another completely different issue is the appropriateness of the content of classroom discussions.)

 

Special support in higher academics do exist for younger gifted students. The qualification is that they exist for gifted students whose parents can afford to pay for them to attend programs that offer them. That is the reality of the educational system we have. It is true for younger students, and it is equally true for adult students. If you can't afford to pay for the opportunity, that door is closed. Then you look for an open window.

 

We personally dwell in limited options, so I am not making those comments unaffected. My very gifted 11th grader is facing very limited options for college. It makes me want to cry, but that is her reality. (Her Russian tutor is horrified by our college discussions. But, if you cannot pay for something better, you are stuck with what you can afford.)

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I do not believe that elite universities design their courses to sieve out students in the first two years and have not seen any evidence of this. They are highly selective and only admit those students whom they deem very likely to succeed. A colllege does not build its reputation by failing large numbers of admitted students, since retention and graduate rate are factors in the rankings that generate reputation. The extremely selective schools tend to have extremely high retention rates

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2015/06/30/10-colleges-where-freshmen-are-most-likely-to-come-back

which does not mesh with your assumption that students are actively weeded out.

 

What happens in less selective schools that admit a large portion of students of very differing abilities is that a certain portion of students turns out to be unable to fulfill the expectations and will fail foundational math and science courses. I teach such a class at a public university, and every semester about 20% of the students fail and need to retake the course. This is not an active attempt to weed out anybody, but due to the fact that roughly this portion of students is not able to perform at the required level.

 

 

 

 

I have not seen any evidence that there young students are given a bonus for being younger. They are held to the same standards. It has been reiterated time and time again that admissions do not give bonus points to younger applicants, and that parents should be very careful when making the decision to graduate kids at an earlier age, because they will be competing wioth studnets of regular age. There are no special considerations or admissions.

I would assume that, at a university level, younger students who are enrolled will not be given any special treatment either - nor can they, since instructors have to be careful to avoid inequalities in the way students are treated.

 

So, the gifted student who does not have the executive functions needs his parents to recognize that he may not be capable of succeeding at university.

The exception is a deficit in executive function that is not caused by age but so severe that it is classified as a disability; in this situation, any student, irrespective of age, is entitled to accommodations under the ADA.

 

PM'ed you.

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In some ways I think it's funny that folks expect young or even early college-aged students to have mastered all executive function skills needed to 'do well' in college by the time they're taking college courses. This is valid, but I also wanted to point out that this a learning curve that just keeps curving upwards, and a lack of support system can be a problem at any stage. I think of how many PhD candidates have trouble finishing up their dissertations, and just need a little support to hand in the final draft and receive their hard-earned degree. I think of how many mentoring systems are created in the professional world to help folks do/be their best. None of us are great at everything, and we all need help and inspiration at some point. I agree that teaching children skills about when to persevere and when to ask for assistance are really important skills that will serve them well throughout their life. Sometimes teaching when and how to ask for help are the harder tasks to master for those of us who think we should be able to do anything perfectly all by ourselves...

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I think in most cases, the onus is on the younger student to prove that they're just as capable, if not more so, than a college student. Now, I do think that age can be somewhat an advantage as well, but not when it comes to admission. For DD, one reason why she stands out is that she is not scared to ask questions, to talk to people who are top in their field, and doesn't automatically have some of the reluctance to look stupid that grad students have. And I think the main reason she still has that is because she's a child. She's not thinking "this person may be on a peer review board or funding committee, and if I look stupid, I'll never get funded" because she's totally innocent of the political side of science so far. And, in fact, the session where she had the most trouble was the one where she placed the most prestige on the speakers-because they're the ones that her peers at home might actually recognize. Then, she was much more an uncomfortable pre-teen (and was STILL more willing to speak up than the grad students).

 

But, at the same time, she is under a microscope a lot. At conferences, on campus, and just because she's there. She is probably the only person at the conferences who is universally recognized, even more than many of the very senior herpetologists, and as a result, even if she isn't specifically being talked to/scrutinized, she FEELS she is-and that's wearing. It fades over the semester as a group gets to know her and forgets how young she is, but it's never too far away. And that probably won't change until she's old enough to blend in, which likely won't be until she's in her teens (high school dual enrollment students and pre-bacs don't generally stand out).

 

And honestly, I think that's one reason why DD is a lot more interested in DA (and I suspect that if we visited other programs that allow early entry for a cohort of kids her age they'd appeal for the same reason) than in just starting college somewhere. Because while she adores the conferences and doing field and lab work and all the stuff she gets to do, it is really, really wearing to be as much under the microscope as that water sample or hatchling newt. She wants to be able to be "normal"-while still being her asynchronous self.

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In some ways I think it's funny that folks expect young or even early college-aged students to have mastered all executive function skills needed to 'do well' in college by the time they're taking college courses. This is valid, but I also wanted to point out that this a learning curve that just keeps curving upwards, and a lack of support system can be a problem at any stage. I think of how many PhD candidates have trouble finishing up their dissertations, and just need a little support to hand in the final draft and receive their hard-earned degree. I think of how many mentoring systems are created in the professional world to help folks do/be their best. None of us are great at everything, and we all need help and inspiration at some point. I agree that teaching children skills about when to persevere and when to ask for assistance are really important skills that will serve them well throughout their life. Sometimes teaching when and how to ask for help are the harder tasks to master for those of us who think we should be able to do anything perfectly all by ourselves...

 

I don't think that all young students are expected to have mastered the executive function skills needed to do well in college.  I think that the issue is that young students who enroll in college classes are expected to have mastered the executive function skills required.  There is a difference.  Young students do not have to enroll in college.  The same is also true with college-aged adults.  They do not have to enroll in college.

 

FWIW, it is precisely b/c of EF deficits that our adult Aspie dropped out of college.  He could not function even with support b/c he was too stressed by the environment.  It also became very clear that he would need the same sort of support in order to function in any professional type of employment.  That level of support does not exist.  Employers expect employees to function. Not everyone is cut out for college, even those who are gifted.  (Our ds has a high IQ and academically is very strong.  Those 2 things do not compensate for his deficits.) 

 

Just playing devil's advocate here b/c the reality of the situation is that students fail and many times the reason for failure has nothing to do with intelligence or academic ability and everything to do with lack of EF or personal responsibility for making academics a priority.  Unless it is a diagnosed disability with access to accommodations (and then, as with our ds, that is no guarantee of anything), the student is going to be expected to figure it out.  A young student failing will have that transcript following them around for their lifetime.  The pros and cons of the situation need to be weighed carefully b/c there can be negative consequences.

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SOMEWHAT OFFTOPIC

 

This post is not meant to be confrontational, rather a questioning of the norms that drive college education.

 

 

fwiw, It is interesting to me that the frontal lobe of the brain responsible for the executive functioning skills matures only in the late 20s and in some cases, 30s ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/ ).

 

 

I hope I understood the crux of your questions, ebunny. And thank you for linking that study. I only skimmed it...I'm curious how homeschooling might affect such studies. Or breaking it down further, unschooling, homeschooling in a very natural, child-led way, vs more authoritarian forms of homeschooling and parenting etc. How do genes affect the studies? Will make a fascinating s/o discussion!

 

I strongly feel that developing EF is a lifelong matter. That EF skills, even past that stage when consistently used, can be lost for some reason or other...injury, tragedy in the family, illness, stress as examples. I used to think that my son will never acquire sufficient EF skills to succeed in college. At the same time that I felt that, I hurt some parents' feelings in another board by saying how easy a course was for him when their older kids struggled in that same course. I should know better that asynchronous development is such a mainstay in our lives that need/desire for intellectual challenge and the EF-misfit are going to be hand-in-hand and follow him around for a long time. I think of it like this: he is reaching for a mug of water due to extreme thirst, and his fingers somehow don't quite close around the mug's handle, but there's enough grip for him to still drink from the mug kwim? The fingers will at some point hold on to the mug more confidently, but by then, he would have finished drinking the water and will be thirsting actively for something else.

 

Online classes just can't fit this need in some areas for various reasons, primarily right now the reason is that he thrives in a RL group setting, and loves meeting profs to talk (plus I don't trust myself to lead labs at home). Still, I don't think community college is a good across the board platform for him. It's a holding place for now. His EF seems to grow in leaps and bounds in this environment and together with the low content challenge I can tell you he is not going to use this platform for long. The CC's goals are different from ours and we are very fortunate for now to be able to make use of it while we can in some areas. I think he can still grow from the group experience in languages and lab science and music, he might learn to write more persuasively from the English and History courses he plans to take, but it's not going to last for long. Having said that though, it doesn't mean that he needs no EF help at all. We use post its and online reminders and timers liberally here. We had meetings every morning to help him remember things he might forget (but I am glad to say he needs these less frequently now). He forgot a quiz once (I don't remind him) but thankfully remembered just in time to hand it in. It happens. It's not perfect. I don't think I want it to be because it means he won't learn from mistakes. He knows the record is going to follow him to uni...he can't just 100% relax...but at the same time, he also knows that he can overcome "disasters"...that is the EF I really want him to develop consistently...knowing that mistakes happen but that it's not the end of the world when they do.

 

I wanted to quote bakpak too but the multiquote seems to not be working. I think it is unfair that adults can ask for help when they need it (in an educational setting especially) but that children who need academics at that same or higher level need to first obtain good EF skills before they do the same. But like 8 says, it's all a business. It is still unfair. But I am thankful that as DS's parent I can champion the way for him while also ensuring that his achievements are his own.

 

What Ruth is facing...it is becoming common where I live among the homeschool community. We homeschool in the first place because of our need for academic challenge while nurturing our kids and allowing them to learn more naturally. There is a wave of accelerated kids coming up over here and I can see changes happening in the near future...very likely more tightening of rules rather than relaxing. Many of these kids do look EF-ready to me...enough to succeed in DE with a CC and in some cases, uni too. They don't look like they need to wait till they are 18 or 20 for EF reasons.

 

Assuming that the parents are not pushing these kids, how can we support the need? in my experience, at the moment, it's from fighting these battles in the most respectful but firm way I can and starting support groups or lending a ear to a family that needs it so they too will be able to advocate in a similar way...

 

I'll remove this post at some point so please don't quote...I have already derailed Ruth's thread too much. :P

 


 

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:grouphug:

This chinese idiom story might be something your son can identify with. The link is bilingual.

http://www.121chineselessons.com/resources/chinese-idiom-and-proverb/chinese-idiom-stories/yu-gong-yi-shan/

 

She wants to be able to be "normal"-while still being her asynchronous self.

That's what my DS10 is looking for too. He wants to be as mischievous as a 10/11 year old and wants the intellectual challenge as well. We are school shopping this year to see whats out there.

 

I am bias towards UW over DA though because of location. It would be easier to find heritage speakers in Seattle which is another need.

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