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On the cursive handwriting thread I saw several people mention that the fine motor planning in their kids' writing was not automatic and I realized that may be the term for a small issue I'm seeing in DD13's writing. She has only learned print because she was in public school from K-5th. I have introduced a bit of cursive but she really struggles with that. Her print handwriting is too large for her age but is generally legible and fine. Sometimes it looks quite nice, but there are minor ssues with legibility when it comes to the details like spacing between letters/words (too much or too little) and capitalization and punctuation. 

 

When she does spelling words or dictation from Barton or even just writes letters to friends or helped me label boxes for moving she often makes mistakes and quickly erases and fixes it. of course with boxes we were writing with sharpies so it meant I have lots of crossed out words, lol! 

 

Anyway, it's sometimes a spelling issue where she'll misspell the word, realize it's wrong, and fix it immediately. Here are some examples of times she'll make mistakes:

 

- it's a spacing issue, as in she'll put letters like this:   "du c k"   or even "s l a n t".

 

- other times (this is very common) she'll start to write the capital letters and then realize it's supposed to be lowercase. This is not just with the first letter of words either, it can be in the middle.

 

- she used to mix up b's and d's in her writing but that is extremely rare now thankfully. 

 

- and then she'll also just shape the letter incorrectly, for example placing the lowercase p such that it doesn't extend below the bottom line, or she'll mess up part of the k

 

She always fixes these mistakes super super fast, like I barely have time to see what she did and she's suddenly erasing like crazy. She goes through erasers in no time, it's kinda annoying, because she also erases very hard. 

 

Her pencil grip is very poor, it's identical to the 7th picture down on this page, the one where the child is holding a pink marker: http://www.ot-mom-learning-activities.com/poor-pencil-grip.html

 

We've worked on the pencil grip a bit but she's 13 so honestly I doubt she can totally fix that.

 

Does this sound like a motor planning issue or something else? Would you even bother trying to fix any of this or just accept that she'll probably always be a bit slow in writing because of her need to constantly erase and rewrite things? 

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I'd do something about it, just because I'm guessing she has some issues elsewhere in her daily living that are related.

 

It could be motor + visual processing + any number of other things. 

 

I'd look into dysgraphia (& dyspraxia if you notice some over coordination issues).

 

I'd also make sure that she is an excellent typist.

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This kind of thing was step in the process for my older son toward being automatic and noticing his own mistakes. I think these kids also often learn mistakes easily and unlearn them not as easily, but it's great that she sees what she's doing and fixes it. Things did get better with my son (not perfect--he has a dysgraphia label), but it took a little while. He did copywork during this time, and his handwriting skill fluctuated wildly day-to-day even though the work was roughly equivalent each day. Her grip is a lot like my younger son's (the hyperextended fingers)--he has global lone muscle tone, particularly in the hands and shoulders.

 

I would continue copywork for the automaticity. Work on hand strength, not just grip. You can find some old threads about this--not all of the tasks are fine motor tasks. Things like doing wheelbarrow or crab walking help hand grip strength and shoulder girdle strength at the same time. Theraputty is great. Holding small items (coins, marbles, etc.) in one hand, rolling them toward your finger tips one at a time, and then placing those items on a surface help (then reverse the process, picking them up one by one and holding them in your hand at the same time). String games help. Some kinds of cutting with scissors helps. Some crafts help grip strength and some require better grip strength--you'll have to see what is frustrating and what helps. Pulling things hand over hand on a rope help shoulders and grip (we have a small ramp on the swingset that has a rope on it for pulling yourself up). You can use pool noodles for games that move shoulders too, and it helps the grip at the same time (field hockey with noodles, or tug-of-war with them, for instance). We have a tetherball that hangs straight from a swingset, and our younger kiddo uses boxing gloves to hit it--this is good for eye tracking and the shoulder girdle (you have to adjust the height so that it works the shoulders). Any large muscle work, like writing on a chalkboard in big letters, helps automaticity and the shoulders at the same time. So does washing windows or mirrors and other chores like that. Even using the monkey bars helps. We've invested in and pushed the play equipment a lot more after OT. We've also found that piano practice has helped finger strength, though my son's teacher has had to get creative about how to build finger strength and still keep him moving forward with his lessons. I know i had crazy strong hands as a kid when I played the piano and lived on the monkey bars!

 

I don't know how much you can get things to budge in what timeframe, but these are all things one or both of my children have done or do, and we've seen progress with what I've described.  

 

Oh, another great toy for shoulder strength, particularly if you hold your arms in various positions while using it (arms to the side, arms stacked one above the other, etc.). http://www.amazon.com/Dazzling-Toys-Sliding-Family-Slider/dp/B00L8ELYNO/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1438193999&sr=1-2&keywords=zoom+sliding+ball&pebp=1438194010137&perid=1KTRV9XCH0PJFZ7EQCA2 

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My dd's finally became automatic, sometime between 14 (when I basically gave up hope!) and 16.  Come to think of it, it's true she picked back up piano then.  I think for her it was more like something clicked maturationally in her brain and she COULD do the piano so she was.  And that some click is what probably brought forward the writing.  Anyways, at the time when we gave up, what we did was to work together to pick something she could do, going through each letter.  She practiced a bit.  But she doesn't have dysgraphia and the spacing issues and whatnot.  She might be processing a lot at once.  (letter formation AND spelling AND...)  

 

How is her working memory?  Has she had VT?  Bumping any of the components even a bit might ease the strain.  

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The odd thing is she definitely doesn't have low or weak muscle tone. She's unbelievably strong and is a swimmer, so especially strong in the shoulders and back. She rocks at the butterfly stroke, which most kids find too complicated/physically demanding to excel at. I think, and this is just my layman's guess, that the pencil grip is actually a sensory issue. She's unresponsive to sensory input often....as in she'll sit on someone and not realize it, or bump into someone hard but to her it barely registers and she's confused when they act offended or are kinda pushed aside because to her it felt like just a tap. She also bites/picks at her fingernails and they bleed, but again she doesn't register it really. So I think the overly tight and awkward pencil grip is a combination of sensory issues and now of course habit. Does that make sense?

 

If I were to have her just keep doing copy work (the rest of her work looks like Grammar Stage vs Logic Stage anyway so why not) would you suggest I stick with print or would cursive help? And would something like Draw Write Now be sufficient or do you think there is a better copy work program I should use/create? I've got baby 5 coming next week so I'm prepping absolutely everything for the year ahead of time right now and making sure that everything is open-and-go as much as possible for the year. 

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The odd thing is she definitely doesn't have low or weak muscle tone. She's unbelievably strong and is a swimmer, so especially strong in the shoulders and back. She rocks at the butterfly stroke, which most kids find too complicated/physically demanding to excel at. I think, and this is just my layman's guess, that the pencil grip is actually a sensory issue. She's unresponsive to sensory input often....as in she'll sit on someone and not realize it, or bump into someone hard but to her it barely registers and she's confused when they act offended or are kinda pushed aside because to her it felt like just a tap. She also bites/picks at her fingernails and they bleed, but again she doesn't register it really. So I think the overly tight and awkward pencil grip is a combination of sensory issues and now of course habit. Does that make sense?

 

If I were to have her just keep doing copy work (the rest of her work looks like Grammar Stage vs Logic Stage anyway so why not) would you suggest I stick with print or would cursive help? And would something like Draw Write Now be sufficient or do you think there is a better copy work program I should use/create? I've got baby 5 coming next week so I'm prepping absolutely everything for the year ahead of time right now and making sure that everything is open-and-go as much as possible for the year. 

 

The sensory makes perfect sense. I would want OT for that if you're not doing that, but in the meantime, some kids like to write on a full pad of paper with a pen, or they prefer to feel every bit and want something scratchy and hard. You might experiment. She might also be kind of tense or seriously concentrating to the point that she's gripping the pencil way too hard--I used to grip my pencil way too hard and make my whole wrist and arm hurt--enough for splinting, rest, etc. I am not sure what to recommend about that. I just had to try to be mindful, and that didn't come until high school.

 

You could try just enough cursive to see if she likes it and want to continue. I hate to suggest disrupting things if she's on her way to being more automatic, but sometimes a reset makes new, good patterns. I have no idea how to evaluate that.

 

I'm sure that's not very helpful for an answer. Sorry!

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I downloaded a free Kindle book on dysgraphia that talked about three different kinds of dysgraphia. One was called dylexic dysgraphia, but it wasn't dyslexia. The characteristics of it were strange spacing, letter placement, and the ability to copy neatly but not write original thoughts neatly. My second dd had weird spacing, sometimes strange uses of large writing, never started at the margin, started some letters from the bottom, and I thought the dyslexic dysgraphia sounded like her most of all the different types. She had a convergence and tracking problem, low scores on tests of visual-motor integration, and the hypersensitive type of sensory processing disorder. I took her to OT in first grade and had an eval again in sixth grade, I think. I was so angry about that eval and posted it here. Just like the OP's dd, she is very strong, but the OT tried to tell us she had a muscle weakness problem in the report. She probably did that to get insurance coverage for the OT but a false report wouldn't help me at all. Anyway, there seem to be a lot of similarities between my older dd and yours.

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I downloaded a free Kindle book on dysgraphia that talked about three different kinds of dysgraphia. One was called dylexic dysgraphia, but it wasn't dyslexia. The characteristics of it were strange spacing, letter placement, and the ability to copy neatly but not write original thoughts neatly. My second dd had weird spacing, sometimes strange uses of large writing, never started at the margin, started some letters from the bottom, and I thought the dyslexic dysgraphia sounded like her most of all the different types. She had a convergence and tracking problem, low scores on tests of visual-motor integration, and the hypersensitive type of sensory processing disorder. I took her to OT in first grade and had an eval again in sixth grade, I think. I was so angry about that eval and posted it here. Just like the OP's dd, she is very strong, but the OT tried to tell us she had a muscle weakness problem in the report. She probably did that to get insurance coverage for the OT but a false report wouldn't help me at all. Anyway, there seem to be a lot of similarities between my older dd and yours.

 

Interesting. Yes the Dyslexic Dysgraphia would sound like Ana, and she has actual Dyslexia too so why not the other kind too ;) Haha! She also doesn't automatically start at the margins either, even when numbering her paper for a spelling test the numbers will float away like this:

 

1.

      2.

3. 

    4.

        5.  

 

           6. 

 

and so on :) 

 

DD does not seem to have any issues with convergence or tracking that I've seen. She does see an optometrist but not a developmental one that would test specifically for that. I'm tutoring a girl with Irlen's Syndrome and it's totally different from tutoring DD. With DD her dyslexia is primarily auditory though of course she did letter reversals and the typical visual dyslexic mistakes or leaving out of letters, but not the way this other girl does and for her it doesn't make much difference what font or color paper or size of font is used. Slightly bigger font is maybe a tiny bit easier but I don't see a big discrepancy in her ability to read words in isolation and words on a regular times new roman font page in a book. The girl I tutor there's this huge discrepancy between the two and I have to be very careful to work on that with her. 

 

Anyway, so Tiramisu, did OT help your daughter? Or did you do anything else that helped more? 

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OT did not help in first grade for sensory issues, but insurance only covered two months of visits twice weekly. My ped who has a kid like ours recently told me she doesn't think OT helps for sensory but is great for handwriting. I gave up on handwriting after the negative OT eval in sixth grade because I was so frustrated. I would not do OT at that point. She moved to typing and she was fine. She typed everything but math.

 

VT in eighth grade seemed to help with making writing neater and more organized. It eliminated math mistakes, and math got done more quickly. It improved reading comprehension of longer passages.  

 

She's in a brick and mortar high school and doing extremely well. She's forgetful sometimes about things which just seems funny when it happens with her because she's so highly motivated and super-organized. Recently, I asked her how she feels about her writing now, if she feels she can write quickly and neatly enough, and she says she feels like she's doing okay.

 

Her sensory issues are a lot better since puberty, but she needs lots of space or she'll get stressed out. She doesn't like hugs unless they are from her friends. Once in a while, if she's in the right mood, she'll tolerate a kiss from me. In high school, she goes to the nurse whenever a pep rally is scheduled. (It's kind of a joke because dh works at the same high school and has had to leave pep rallies, too. I think he might have to put ear plugs in. His heart beat syncs with the rhythm of the music at the dances and because of that I think he may be excused from proctoring them in the future and get other duties instead.)

 

One huge practical problem we have is having enough room in our house to give each of us enough quiet private space to decompress because of the sensory issues.

 

ETA: I forgot to add that she's been doing kung fu three days a week for over ten years. She played piano for a few years but now she's very seriously into cello.  I think those two things have helped her a lot. There is a difference in balance and coordination between my kids who have done kung fu and those who haven't. There's also a difference between the parents who do kung fu and those who don't. Dh has never had a car accident, never bumps into things around the house or smashes things by accident like I do.  :tongue_smilie:

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The odd thing is she definitely doesn't have low or weak muscle tone. She's unbelievably strong and is a swimmer, so especially strong in the shoulders and back. She rocks at the butterfly stroke, which most kids find too complicated/physically demanding to excel at. I think, and this is just my layman's guess, that the pencil grip is actually a sensory issue. She's unresponsive to sensory input often....as in she'll sit on someone and not realize it, or bump into someone hard but to her it barely registers and she's confused when they act offended or are kinda pushed aside because to her it felt like just a tap. She also bites/picks at her fingernails and they bleed, but again she doesn't register it really. So I think the overly tight and awkward pencil grip is a combination of sensory issues and now of course habit. Does that make sense?

 

If I were to have her just keep doing copy work (the rest of her work looks like Grammar Stage vs Logic Stage anyway so why not) would you suggest I stick with print or would cursive help? And would something like Draw Write Now be sufficient or do you think there is a better copy work program I should use/create? I've got baby 5 coming next week so I'm prepping absolutely everything for the year ahead of time right now and making sure that everything is open-and-go as much as possible for the year. 

If you want irony, a retained STNR can cause that strong butterfly stroke.  That's how my ds is.  He's in minnow at the Y as a 6 yo.  I was just reading in Stopping ADHD that a retained STNR (which he has) will result in an unusually strong kick and make them unusually good at butterfly and breast stroke, even as the freestyle struggles in comparison.  This is exactly the case with ds, which is why it caught my eye.  Like the head of the program eyes him and comments on how good his kick is.  Then I read it's because of the STNR, lol.  Can't win!  

 

Also, strength and tone are not the same.  My ds is low tone and quite, quite strong.  He's a competitive gymnast now, and his coach comments on how strong he is.  Quite strong, definitely low tone, definitely sensory issues.

 

Check, but you might be able to find info on the STNR tests online.  Some of these reflexes confuse me.  Anyways, that Stopping book puts HUGE deference to integrating the STNR, saying it affects dysgraphia, dyslexia, all sorts of things.  Their claims seem so flourishing, it's almost hard to believe, and yet when you read their profile it SO FITS ds, I figured I was crazy not to run with it.  Besides, unlike almost all other therapy programs, this one gives you EVERYTHING you need, right in the book.  So literally, if you decided wow that does fit, it's all there.  I tried the exercises with dd, whose profile is very different, and she could do them correctly easily the first time.  Ds, on the other hand, finds them frustrating, curls his fingers, struggles to keep his head up, etc.  They're both labeled ADHD (and the book makes no distinction on subtypes, etc.).  It's just in his case the profile of effects of the retained STNR definitely fits.  Dd, when I tested her, had some retained ATNR (just a little) and didn't evidence STNR.

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If you want irony, a retained STNR can cause that strong butterfly stroke.  That's how my ds is.  He's in minnow at the Y as a 6 yo.  I was just reading in Stopping ADHD that a retained STNR (which he has) will result in an unusually strong kick and make them unusually good at butterfly and breast stroke, even as the freestyle struggles in comparison.  This is exactly the case with ds, which is why it caught my eye.  Like the head of the program eyes him and comments on how good his kick is.  Then I read it's because of the STNR, lol.  Can't win!  

 

Also, strength and tone are not the same.  My ds is low tone and quite, quite strong.  He's a competitive gymnast now, and his coach comments on how strong he is.  Quite strong, definitely low tone, definitely sensory issues.

 

Check, but you might be able to find info on the STNR tests online.  Some of these reflexes confuse me.  Anyways, that Stopping book puts HUGE deference to integrating the STNR, saying it affects dysgraphia, dyslexia, all sorts of things.  Their claims seem so flourishing, it's almost hard to believe, and yet when you read their profile it SO FITS ds, I figured I was crazy not to run with it.  Besides, unlike almost all other therapy programs, this one gives you EVERYTHING you need, right in the book.  So literally, if you decided wow that does fit, it's all there.  I tried the exercises with dd, whose profile is very different, and she could do them correctly easily the first time.  Ds, on the other hand, finds them frustrating, curls his fingers, struggles to keep his head up, etc.  They're both labeled ADHD (and the book makes no distinction on subtypes, etc.).  It's just in his case the profile of effects of the retained STNR definitely fits.  Dd, when I tested her, had some retained ATNR (just a little) and didn't evidence STNR.

 

Interesting info! I found a decent description of how to test for each of the reflexes. DD is away at Grandma's right now but I think I'll read up and check on those when she's back and see if she has any of those signs. Can't hurt to check! I might test the boys too just for kicks and to be my controls for the experiment ;) Then I can maybe play it off like I'm testing *them* for issues and not her, poor thing already has so many 'issues' I hate to even suggest another one unless I'm sure.

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Children and Adult ADHD Drug Free Treatment Book  They give a good summary of the book here, including info on symptoms and how to recognize it.  

 

It will be interesting to see what turns up!  My ds has at least 3 retained reflexes (STNR, ATNR, and spinal gallant), where my dd had just a fuzz of ATNR.  In her case though she had had OT years ago.  Maybe she had more before that?  Dunno.

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My ped who has a kid like ours recently told me she doesn't think OT helps for sensory but is great for handwriting. 

 

I think this varies from child to child and OT to OT. We had wonderful help with sensory via OT. My son was in 5th when he had OT, and he had just completed VT a couple of months before that. (for context)

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I just got a note from the VT and she said she's going to contact us later to discuss things. So far we know for sure dd has a mild vestibular processing difficulty that the OT does not believe needs treatment. She's going to explain more about this and everything else when we talk again. I'm starting to wonder if it's all going to come down to the visual problems we already know about and are treating with VT.

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