Math....Grrrr....Totally different learning styles!!!!

[Davina]

Okay, first off, a little background information:  I have two girls 4th and 5th grade both with different learning styles of course.  We have used MUS(too slow), MM(not enough repetition for dd1 and too abstract for dd2) and CLE(not conceptual enough for dd1 but very confidence building for dd2).

 

My eldest dd is really quite intuitive with numbers, but has a hard time memorizing math facts.  She has been using CLE this year to try to give her extra practice with this, but I am afraid it is killing her love of math!  First of all, the lessons are very long and take her well over an hour (ADD). Second of all, the incremental nature of CLE often leads her to ask,  "But, why?".  She wants to know the whole story and always wants to talk about problems and analyze them.  CLE is not good for this kind of inquisitiveness.

 

My youngest dd is not as intuitive with numbers.  Place value still seems very cloudy to her and although she will say she understands it, I think she still struggles with it. She also struggles with word problems.  So anything abstract is a hurdle for her.  She is easily frustrated with these things but memorizes much quicker than her sister.  Anyway, CLE has given her much needed confidence in math because she feels no need to understand why and the word problems are very easy. 

 

All this being said, I believe that having a conceptual understanding is very important and I am thinking of going back to MM since I actually have MM1-6.  Does anyone have any ideas of what to do to make this a successful transition (from traditional to conceptual) for both girls?  I am open to games, supplements, or even other curriculum options.  Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Tiramisu]

I was considering MM but decided against it because of the lack of review. It's sad, actually, because I like it. I just don't think it would be a good fit for my dd who I know needs a lot of review. 

 

One thought is to add Evan-Moor Daily Math Review to the Math Mammoth lesson. Some people do things like add CLE. CLE lessons would not work for us because they are too long, but Evan-Moor is only five problems a day. Each day of the week they hit a different operation, including fractions, etc., so over the course of a week they'd get good review.

 

We decided to keep Singapore because she loves it and has given her good conceptual understanding and mental math skills, and add in the Daily Math Review .

[kateingr]

With such totally different learning styles, you may need to use different curricula with each daughter...although it certainly makes life easier when you only have one program going! 

 

My first thought is that both of your daughters might really benefit from going through RightStart's "Activities for the AL Abacus" as a sort of math fact/place value boot camp. You'd be able to zoom through a lot of it and slow down in the places where your daughters need some supplementing. Once they have those areas mastered more fully, then you could continue with other curriculum.

 

Could you say a little more about your older's struggle with the math facts? Is there a particular operation that's hard for her, or is it all of them? What in particular do you think make them hard for her? 

[Davina]

Thanks for the tip on the Daily Math Review, Tiramisu!  I will definitely look into that.

 

Kateingr, when we did MM in oldest daughter's 3rd grade year she struggled to retain multiplication facts and still has not mastered them despite (CLE's constant review in her 4th) although she has improved and can usually come up with an answer. It is just not automatic.  Once she started learning multiplication/division facts with more consistency, she seemed to lose addition/subtraction facts.  She can do them, but, again, they are not automatic.  And her ability to recall them can vary depending on the day. :huh:

 

I am not familiar with Right Start at all.  I have been intimidated by others posting that it is a little pricey.  So I never really considered it.  Looking at the website, I am not sure where to start with them???

[Soror]

That sounds like my first 2, mine use different programs because they are so different. My son was first, he is like your oldest more intuitive with conceptual math but slower with facts and easily distracted. I used Right Start with him and then moved onto Beast Academy, it worked fabulously, when dd came along I thought I would start her with Right Start too as I think it is such a strong program but she just hated it, really, really hated it. I tried various programs that were more conceptual but they all went horribly, except Math in Focus but by the end of first it was getting to be too much for her. Finally I switched her to Horizons, ahhhh, it was the perfect fit for her. 

 

This year dd1 is in 3rd and still using Horizons Math, ds is in 5th/6th and is using a combo of Math Mammoth 6th and Beast Academy 4D-5 with bits of CLE for review(I had tried it for ds as a full curriculum last year but thought it was too much review and too easy so he didn't use it all so we are picking parts here and there- I'm also using MM in more of a spiral style and going back and forth between MM and BA to keep it fresh and interesting). My k'er is using Math in Focus as she is a mix between the my two oldest and I prefer MiF K and 1st book to Horizons for starting out. I plan to do a mix of MiF and Horizons with her and then onto Beast Academy 2nd when it comes on. 

 

Similarly with yours if CLE is working for your younger daughter and building confidence don't switch her out just because it isn't working for the oldest. This is an easy fix to me, have the oldest do MM but pull in the review sections from CLE. Both get what they need and you don't even have to buy anything. Both MM and CLE lean towards self-teaching so I don't think it is too much to do them both at all.

[kateingr]

Thanks for the tip on the Daily Math Review, Tiramisu!  I will definitely look into that.

 

Kateingr, when we did MM in oldest daughter's 3rd grade year she struggled to retain multiplication facts and still has not mastered them despite (CLE's constant review in her 4th) although she has improved and can usually come up with an answer. It is just not automatic.  Once she started learning multiplication/division facts with more consistency, she seemed to lose addition/subtraction facts.  She can do them, but, again, they are not automatic.  And her ability to recall them can vary depending on the day. :huh:

 

I am not familiar with Right Start at all.  I have been intimidated by others posting that it is a little pricey.  So I never really considered it.  Looking at the website, I am not sure where to start with them???

 

Okay, that helps to understand what exactly she's struggling with. That's a great sign that she's able to come up with the answer, because it shows that she has some strategy or mental process she's going through to figure out. Usually, kids do become more automatic with practice if that's the case, so hopefully the continual practice will eventually help with the speed. 

 

RightStart's website can be overwhelming, and yes, the whole curriculum is quite pricey. The Activities for the AL Abacus is what I was thinking of. It's really the core of the program packed into one book. (Here's the sample.) You'd need to add an abacus and the worksheets for the AL Abacus, so it still wouldn't be cheap, but it might be very helpful with the place value and facts. Their addition games and multiplication games could be really good for building speed for your older daughter, too. 

[OneStepAtATime]

If the CLE lessons are too long, feel free to cross out some of the review.  There is a LOT of review.  And as mentioned above, sometimes it is necessary to use different math programs with different students. If MM wasn't working or was demoralizing your younger child I would hesitate to switch her back to MM.  If CLE is helping the younger one, I would stick with it for that child and just switch the other one back to MM.  There IS some conceptual in CLE.  It just isn't as obvious as with MM.  FWIW, we use CLE now but I still roll in some of the conceptual from Beast Academy and Math In Focus.  The kids need the spiral review from CLE, though.  We just cut out some of the review problems and skip the quizzes so we can add in other things.  

 

What about skipping some of the review in CLE and incorporating a MM lesson twice a week instead?  You could combine the new material from two lessons of CLE, only do the review from one of those CLE lessons on Mondays, do select parts of MM on Tuesdays, CLE combined/shortened lessons again on Wednesdays, etc.  

 

Also, how solid are their subitization skills?  If those are weak, you might consider doing the Ronit Bird e-books on the side to solidify those.

 

 For the younger you might also look at doing CLE M-Th and something more conceptual on Fridays.  

 

Maybe make a checklist of the concepts/computational goals you have for each child for the year and stay focused on meeting those goals.  Pick the material from each system that will help get your kids there.

 

 

[Targhee]

Use two different programs. I know that is more work for you, and more expensive when you can't hand down materials. However, you can't put these two into the same shaped box and expect them both to fit.

 

Your oldest sounds a lot like my oldest. Don't stop moving ahead with math even though she doesn't have facts mastered. Have her make her own multiplication chart and use it whenever she's doing her regular math work. She will not use it for the ones she knows, and repeated use will help her learn the rest, all whilst nourishing her love of mathematics. My DD used hers until she was 11, but that didn't stop her from excelling at math (and making "A" grades in AoPS online classes). We tried a few things for math facts (games, drill sheets, flash cards, picture stories for VSLs) but honestly what she needed was time *using* the facts in more meaningful and complex problems for them to become second nature. You can keep doing math facts work if you think it is helping, but don't hold her back waiting on it to be perfect.

 

Your second daughter seems to need something more explicit, and with lots of review. Singapore PM standards edition has this. But something like Saxon might be her thing.

 

One of the biggest reasons we homeschool is to meet our kids' learning needs individual - learning style, learning difficulties, personal strengths, etc - so that they each can be successful. I think you have a unique opportunity as a homeschool parent, one who already recognizes they have different needs, to do this. Best Wishes!

[SilverMoon]

My oldest two kids are polar opposites. My vote goes to using two different programs. While it seems like more work for you, I can assure you it's less work than trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

 

Based on your post is leave the little one in CLE, and move the bigger one to a better fit. If you can make MM work for her that'd be awesome. If not you might consider Horizons. It has bite-size sets of several different concepts in each lesson, and has worked fabulously for my DC that enjoy math.

[sbgrace]

I think I'd try to leave the youngest in CLE based on what you described. I teach the new material in CLE. That lets me add conceptual (via AOPs videos, Education Unboxed, MM, etc.) teaching. I also use FAN math Process Skills and Problem Solving books with CLE. This adds both challenge generally and especially word problem challenge to CLE, which is weak in that area. They are short books, so one or two problems a day is fine. I go through the book twice actually, with the problems mixed up in order the second time.

 

My ADD kid is in CLE. I eliminate repetition in the problems (if you get x right, you can skip the others of that type). I also do much of the lesson sitting with him to keep him on task, but I have to do nearly everything that way for this child.

[Syllieann]

Thanks for the tip on the Daily Math Review, Tiramisu! I will definitely look into that.

 

Kateingr, when we did MM in oldest daughter's 3rd grade year she struggled to retain multiplication facts and still has not mastered them despite (CLE's constant review in her 4th) although she has improved and can usually come up with an answer. It is just not automatic. Once she started learning multiplication/division facts with more consistency, she seemed to lose addition/subtraction facts. She can do them, but, again, they are not automatic. And her ability to recall them can vary depending on the day. :huh:

 

I am not familiar with Right Start at all. I have been intimidated by others posting that it is a little pricey. So I never really considered it. Looking at the website, I am not sure where to start with them???

Needing additional drill on math facts is entirely different than needing additional review of concepts. It sounds like mm would be good for your oldest if you did additional drill. There are lots of games, apps, and also the worksheet generator that came with mm if you need to add those in. I recall that cle has a flashcards system too; maybe you already have that?

[mamiof5]

For math facts...we do Xtra math, a free online program just to practice facts. It is timed, which can be hard to get used to, but as the parent you can adjust their accounts to go a bit slower. We do this almost every day, and has helped a lot

[rebcoola]

Maybe leave your younger in CLE and do something like Khan for the older since they can move at their own pace it can be very motivating.  It would also cut down on the workload for you having 2 kids in different programs.

[Davina]

Thank you to all who replied.  Just writing it out and then getting so many different opinions helps out a lot. 

So here is where I am thinking of going with this for this coming year. 

 

I definitely want to move the oldest into a more conceptual approach.  I will have her start with MM but continue using CLE flashcards or Timez Attack for math fact review.  Last year we went through a rotation of different times tables during our morning time/memory work. This seemed to be a nice place to sneak in extra practice for both girls.  We will probably pick this back up. Targhee, what you said about your DD resonated with me.  I think you are right about not holding her back because of lack of memorization skills.  In all honesty I was that way.  It did not become important to really know them until I had a concrete use for them. If the MM doesn't seem to be a good fit for her I may try Khan while I research some other options for her(?)  I would really like stick with MM through 6th with her and then maybe start on the AoPS series starting with Jousting Armidillos.

 

I am not opposed to using two different programs.  I do want the youngest to have the opportunity to develop some conceptual math skills. With that in mind, I think I will stay with CLE adding either MM worksheets to further explain some conceptual ideas.  I may need something extra for word problems.  Singapore or Zaccaro Primary Math Challenge?

[sbgrace]

Thank you to all who replied.  Just writing it out and then getting so many different opinions helps out a lot. 

So here is where I am thinking of going with this for this coming year. 

 

I definitely want to move the oldest into a more conceptual approach.  I will have her start with MM but continue using CLE flashcards or Timez Attack for math fact review.  Last year we went through a rotation of different times tables during our morning time/memory work. This seemed to be a nice place to sneak in extra practice for both girls.  We will probably pick this back up. Targhee, what you said about your DD resonated with me.  I think you are right about not holding her back because of lack of memorization skills.  In all honesty I was that way.  It did not become important to really know them until I had a concrete use for them. If the MM doesn't seem to be a good fit for her I may try Khan while I research some other options for her(?)  I would really like stick with MM through 6th with her and then maybe start on the AoPS series starting with Jousting Armidillos.

 

I am not opposed to using two different programs.  I do want the youngest to have the opportunity to develop some conceptual math skills. With that in mind, I think I will stay with CLE adding either MM worksheets to further explain some conceptual ideas.  I may need something extra for word problems.  Singapore or Zaccaro Primary Math Challenge?

 

My favorite word problem resource, and I agree that CLE needs that, is Singapore FAN Math Problem Solving and Process Skills. It's also small enough that it's easy to add to CLE in terms of time. You can do 1-2 problems a day. I go back through the book again actually, mixing the problem types up the 2nd time through.

[Soror]

Thank you to all who replied.  Just writing it out and then getting so many different opinions helps out a lot. 

So here is where I am thinking of going with this for this coming year. 

 

I definitely want to move the oldest into a more conceptual approach.  I will have her start with MM but continue using CLE flashcards or Timez Attack for math fact review.  Last year we went through a rotation of different times tables during our morning time/memory work. This seemed to be a nice place to sneak in extra practice for both girls.  We will probably pick this back up. Targhee, what you said about your DD resonated with me.  I think you are right about not holding her back because of lack of memorization skills.  In all honesty I was that way.  It did not become important to really know them until I had a concrete use for them. If the MM doesn't seem to be a good fit for her I may try Khan while I research some other options for her(?)  I would really like stick with MM through 6th with her and then maybe start on the AoPS series starting with Jousting Armidillos.

 

I am not opposed to using two different programs.  I do want the youngest to have the opportunity to develop some conceptual math skills. With that in mind, I think I will stay with CLE adding either MM worksheets to further explain some conceptual ideas.  I may need something extra for word problems.  Singapore or Zaccaro Primary Math Challenge?

Sounds like a plan, fwiw my son that is doing Beast Academy and Math Mammoth is likely to go into Jousting Armadillos himself. Have you looked at Beast Academy? It isn't enough on its own with my son who is similar but it is a great program.

[Davina]

Sounds like a plan, fwiw my son that is doing Beast Academy and Math Mammoth is likely to go into Jousting Armadillos himself. Have you looked at Beast Academy? It isn't enough on its own with my son who is similar but it is a great program.

 

I have been looking at Beast since she was in 3rd grade, but have not tried it.  I want to, but now that I have procrastinated so long I am not sure where I would place her??  I considered doing it from the beginning with both girls, but I am sure it would be too frustrating for my youngest. They have both seen it while I was checking out the samples and, of course, loved the presentation.

 

Would you mind sharing with me exactly how you combine MM and Beast?  I am curious about if I could make this work for her now, and maybe work it in for the youngest very slowly later.(?)  So many curricula, so little time/money!!!!

 

[Targhee]

Thank you to all who replied.  Just writing it out and then getting so many different opinions helps out a lot. 

So here is where I am thinking of going with this for this coming year. 

 

I definitely want to move the oldest into a more conceptual approach.  I will have her start with MM but continue using CLE flashcards or Timez Attack for math fact review.  Last year we went through a rotation of different times tables during our morning time/memory work. This seemed to be a nice place to sneak in extra practice for both girls.  We will probably pick this back up. Targhee, what you said about your DD resonated with me.  I think you are right about not holding her back because of lack of memorization skills.  In all honesty I was that way.  It did not become important to really know them until I had a concrete use for them. If the MM doesn't seem to be a good fit for her I may try Khan while I research some other options for her(?)  I would really like stick with MM through 6th with her and then maybe start on the AoPS series starting with Jousting Armidillos.

 

I am not opposed to using two different programs.  I do want the youngest to have the opportunity to develop some conceptual math skills. With that in mind, I think I will stay with CLE adding either MM worksheets to further explain some conceptual ideas.  I may need something extra for word problems.  Singapore or Zaccaro Primary Math Challenge?

 

I am glad to know you are feeling better about math for your kids!  I have had to use different programs for different kids (sometimes more than one per kid), but I feel like all are in a good place with math because of it. We liked Singapore for my conceptual kid (we covered it more quickly, doing select problems instead of all), and we LOVE Art of Problem Solving for her.  Zaccaro books are good, in that they teach specific strategies for problem solving, and get the kids some really challenging "thinkers" to work on.  Challenging Word Problems by Singapore I think is even better.  Best Wishes!

[Soror]

I have been looking at Beast since she was in 3rd grade, but have not tried it.  I want to, but now that I have procrastinated so long I am not sure where I would place her??  I considered doing it from the beginning with both girls, but I am sure it would be too frustrating for my youngest. They have both seen it while I was checking out the samples and, of course, loved the presentation.

 

Would you mind sharing with me exactly how you combine MM and Beast?  I am curious about if I could make this work for her now, and maybe work it in for the youngest very slowly later.(?)  So many curricula, so little time/money!!!!

 

LOL, there is no specific way that I combine it, as with previous years of using BA we are going back and forth between it and MM. Generally I prefer their presentation and introduction so I like to start with them for a topic. Our goal this year is to shore up elementary math and move onto pre-algebra with JA probably next year so we are going for overpracticing so I want to hit topics multiple times in different ways with lots of practice, ymmv depending on your needs. When I used RS with it when starting I cut way back on what I used from RS, so it was more like bits of RS and all of BA. Personally I'd probably start with 3, 3A is pretty killer for any level but you could look at the placement test and cherry pick what books you want depending on what you want to hit. I love the way they did multiplication. 

[Davina]

With such totally different learning styles, you may need to use different curricula with each daughter...although it certainly makes life easier when you only have one program going! 

 

My first thought is that both of your daughters might really benefit from going through RightStart's "Activities for the AL Abacus" as a sort of math fact/place value boot camp. You'd be able to zoom through a lot of it and slow down in the places where your daughters need some supplementing. Once they have those areas mastered more fully, then you could continue with other curriculum.

 

Could you say a little more about your older's struggle with the math facts? Is there a particular operation that's hard for her, or is it all of them? What in particular do you think make them hard for her? 

 

After reading farrar's post in another math thread, I have decided I want to do one day a week where we step away from our regular math and play some games.  Would I be able to use the "Activities for the AL Abacus" for this? Or would it be better to use everyday as a segue to our regular math? Any other recommendations for FUN math? We already have LOF books and are slowly working through them.

 

[Soror]

I started a thread about relaxed Math 1.5 yrs ago after a rough spell here, tons of good ideas:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/page-3?hl=relaxed+math&do=findComment&comment=6381597

 

 

 

[Davina]

I started a thread about relaxed Math 1.5 yrs ago after a rough spell here, tons of good ideas:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/page-3?hl=relaxed+math&do=findComment&comment=6381597

 

This is perfect!  Thanks so much!  Now I am off to make my list.