creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I'll fully admit I'm not against hunting as it's common around here both locally in general and in my family. We eat deer and occasionally goose or duck, etc. But sport hunting sickens me and always has (vs getting food from hunting or eliminating pests/(truly)dangerous animals). Poor Cecil... but perhaps his life will shed light on this sickening "sport" and cause fewer to do it - esp now that the dentist in question has shut down his practice. I suppose that's all I'd best say. 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Ugh. I don't know anything about Cecil, but from what I glean from your post, ITA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I don't know how you can call it sport when you lure an animal who is used to human contact away from a protected area and then only seriously wound him and wait a week while he suffers until you actually kill him. 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I don't buy that the guy thought it was all legal. He has a 2008 federal conviction for shooting a black bear outside of an authorized zone and trying to pass it off as killed elsewhere - http://www.channel3000.com/news/minn-accused-in-african-lion-death-convicted-in-06-wis-bear-hunt-case/34401720 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 He knew full well what he was doing and that it was illegal. I say let him spend a significant amount of time in a Zimbabwean prison and see if he can learn a few lessons. 33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I find it odd that this is such a big news story--and that people making death threats somehow believe they are morally superior to the dentist. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 I don't know how you can call it sport when you lure an animal who is used to human contact away from a protected area and then only seriously wound him and wait a week while he suffers until you actually kill him. :iagree: I use the term sport very loosely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 I find it odd that this is such a big news story--and that people making death threats somehow believe they are morally superior to the dentist. Death threats are definitely wrong. Prison - in Zimbabwe - should be a given. At least let Zimbabwe decide his punishment. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I read that he was lured off a preserve where hunting was prohibited. The Dentist who killed him is from MN. Hopefully some of his patients will know about this and some of them will find another dentist. Hunting an animal that is accustomed to living in a safe place is bad sportsmanship. He is not a sportsman, based on what he did. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The killing of Cecil was not sport. This dentist is a total a$$ and should be sent back to Zimbabwe for trial. This is not his first offense. Just thinking about what he did makes my blood boil. 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 The killing of Cecil was not sport. This dentist is a total a$$ and should be sent back to Zimbabwe for trial. This is not his first offense. Just thinking about what he did makes my blood boil. I think that's why it gets me (and the general public) more than usual too. It's the details and the utter gall of what this guy did - even paying what, something like 54K(?) if a story I heard was correct, for the "opportunity." If he had been my dentist, he wouldn't be any longer. I don't mind many differences of opinions, hobbies, and likes, etc, but this one crosses the line. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I wish the world had one tiny fragment of the indignation they have for Cecil's murder for the murders of hundreds of thousands of African PEOPLE over the past couple of decades. It was a lion in Zimbabwe--a country that has seen enough human bloodshed to float a battleship. Too bad the dentist didn't miss and take out Mugabe instead. I, for one, refuse to sympathize with Zimbabwe over this one. Sincerely, Someone who has been reading The Fate of Africa--all 700 pages of it--this summer 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 :iagree: I use the term sport very loosely. I know you were. I can't respect anyone who thinks hunting, killing animals used to human contact (as this one was) or caged animals is sport and believes such a lame effort requires skill. It is just wanton disregard for life. I am personally not interested in hunting, but I don't see anything wrong with hunting non protected species for food. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 29, 2015 I wish the world had one tiny fragment of the indignation they have for Cecil's murder for the murders of hundreds of thousands of African PEOPLE over the past couple of decades. It was a lion in Zimbabwe--a country that has seen enough human bloodshed to float a battleship. Too bad the dentist didn't miss and take out Mugabe instead. I, for one, refuse to sympathize with Zimbabwe over this one. Sincerely, Someone who has been reading The Fate of Africa--all 700 pages of it--this summer It doesn't have to be either or. One can have sympathy for both the people AND for a positive icon they have. 53 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I wish the world had one tiny fragment of the indignation they have for Cecil's murder for the murders of hundreds of thousands of African PEOPLE over the past couple of decades. It was a lion in Zimbabwe--a country that has seen enough human bloodshed to float a battleship. Too bad the dentist didn't miss and take out Mugabe instead. I, for one, refuse to sympathize with Zimbabwe over this one. Sincerely, Someone who has been reading The Fate of Africa--all 700 pages of it--this summer I was watching a cnn piece about the refugees hiding from Isis in the mountains. The next story was Kim Kardashians latest bump photo and I had a serious WTF moment. I don't understand sport hunting at all. "Wow, look at thaT powerful animal, I want to kill it!!" If you kill it, you need to be able to eat it. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It doesn't have to be either or. One can have sympathy for both the people AND for a positive icon they have. Exactly. Both/and. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I have a friend in Africa with parents in one of the countries there (South Africa, maybe - I don't remember which anymore; it's been a long time since we talked about the place her parents own/owned - not sure if they still do). They own/owned a place where you could have a safari experience that includes hunting big game. Including lions. It's super expensive, but clearly this guy doesn't have a problem with expense. I'm really puzzled why he did it illegally when, apparently, it can be done legally. Google Africa big game hunting or safari big game hunting. One of the hits I got even talked about big game hunting (including lions) in Zimbabwe. I don't understand trophy hunting at all, but it can be done completely legally. Because of that I wonder if the dentist is either telling the truth that his guides led him to believe it was legal or he's just a complete idiot to do it illegally since it could have been done legally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It doesn't have to be either or. One can have sympathy for both the people AND for a positive icon they have. My point is the contrast between the international outrage over a lion versus the collective international yawn over mass murders of Zimbabwean and other African people. The dentist killed one animal. Mugabe, for one, has killed thousands of humans. At least some Zimbabwean citizens made some much-needed money off of the lion hunt. I have neither sympathy for the lion nor condemnation for the hunter or his hunting party. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Stupid phone. Nm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 My point is the contrast between the international outrage over a lion versus the collective international yawn over mass murders of Zimbabwean and other African people. The dentist killed one animal. Mugabe, for one, has killed thousands of humans. At least some Zimbabwean citizens made some much-needed money off of the lion hunt. I have neither sympathy for the lion nor condemnation for the hunter or his hunting party. I fully understand your sentiment, but I feel that you are trying to shame those of us outraged by the killing of the lion. I grew up in Africa. I DO a lot to help those on its continent. Most of us feel deeply about PEOPLE too, but we can also be upset about the lion being killed. I won't give $$ or travel to Zimbabwe over an animal being killed. I WILL for people. 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Someone suggested they pit him against the crazy vet lady who shot a cat. Last one standing wins. Not that I'd advocate that, but I wonder how ignorant he was. Are you supposed to shoot animals with collars? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I fully understand your sentiment, but I feel that you are trying to shame those of us outraged by the killing of the lion. I grew up in Africa. I DO a lot to help those on its continent. Most of us feel deeply about PEOPLE too, but we can also be upset about the lion being killed. I won't give $$ or travel to Zimbabwe over an animal being killed. I WILL for people. Perhaps those who want to outlaw sport hunting in Zimbabwe should feel ashamed for putting a single lion's welfare ahead of that of the Zimbabweans who make a living (or could make a living) off of the practice. Even as pro-hunting as I am, I think "hunters" who kill what are essentially caged animals are hardly sportsmen. I don't see how that's even any fun, but that doesn't mean all sport hunting, one of the few viable industries Mugabe hasn't completely destroyed, should be outlawed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikin' Mama Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I come from a hunting family and am not opposed to hunting as long as you are going to eat the meat or, like you mentioned, you are reducing the pest population. I totally agree with you Creek! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I can't support all industries that provide jobs for people who need jobs in other countries especially when that industry is actively harming someone or something in another country. I'm not convinced there's such a great local financial benefit anyway. Most of the money that any USian pays to kill animals in other countries doesn't go to local people, it goes to the hunting company which is almost never locally based. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamaraby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Perhaps those who want to outlaw sport hunting in Zimbabwe should feel ashamed for putting a single lion's welfare ahead of that of the Zimbabweans who make a living (or could make a living) off of the practice. Nope. You will not shame me for decrying the killing of a sentient being. I can both be outraged about the killing of the lion and be outraged about what happens to the people in Zimbabwe. Helping the people of Zimbabwe *does not* require the killing of other sentient beings. Big game hunting for "sport" is not how Zimbabwe's problems will be solved. 33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Plansrme, I completely and thoroughly agree that there should be a larger outcry from the international community about atrocities against people in Zimbabwe and everywhere else. We should pay more attention to those and especially *do* more to stop atrocities from happening. We have failed at that in so many places. But that still doesn't make it wrong to be outraged about the killing of this lion or to be opposed to the international sport hunting industry. 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 There's something very wrong with anyone who kills for enjoyment. Walter James Palmer isn't a sportsman or, in my view, any kind of a real man at all. I doubt he'll be extradited, but I hope he is, and I hope he experiences even a small part of the suffering Cecil endured. I think sport hunting should be outlawed, and I am not ashamed to say it. I don't think we should justify or support moral wrong in the hopes that good may result. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 I don't think we should justify or support moral wrong in the hopes that good may result. Ditto - and I suspect Cecil brought more money into the country from those looking to see him on safari than he did over his death from one hunting party. I feel for Zimbabwe losing a positive icon they shared with the world. His death is likely to do diddly toward improving the lot of others there. Now fewer people are even likely to travel there for safari since he was a big draw due to his fame. The two who took Palmer out for the hunt are up on poaching charges - as they should be - I'm not sure how their lot in life has improved over it. He should be too. At least his professional practice here should be ended. That's some consolation for punishment. 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I don't get big game hunting for trophies. They can't legally export the body, so the picture becomes the trophy. Gross. They tried to destroy the collar and gps tracker so I think they knew what they were doing was wrong. Hunters need to stick to game that isn't endangered. Or in the case of the African lion, on the verge of being endangered. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Too much money, too few values. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It definitely seems to be hurting his practice. Maybe he won't be able to afford $55,000 hunting fees anymore. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 So selfish. Such a waste. His hunting fee was probably a drop in the bucket compared to the tourism money Cecil brought into the area. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 My guess is he paid big bucks for a guaranteed kill. His guides should have warned him off that particular lion. Had he shot a different one it wouldn't be news and nobody who doesn't already champion this cause would even know about it. I think it's a deplorable "sport" and can only imagine this guy is an arrogant a$$hole, but I'm guessing there were several men just like him who purchased the same "package" and didn't make international news or lose their livelihoods. Is there a name for this? Something like Disproportionate Outrage? An unsympathetic person becomes the face of a cause and all the 'good' citizens form a PR lynch mob. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 We can only be outraged about things we hear about. if we don't hear about any other hunters, then of course we aren't going to be outraged about them specifically even if we are against big game hunting. We heard about this one because Cecil has news value and it was easier to see at a glance that this particular lion was poached. Illegal poaching including luring animals out of protected areas or just going into the protected areas and poaching there has been big news for years though. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 My point is the contrast between the international outrage over a lion versus the collective international yawn over mass murders of Zimbabwean and other African people. The dentist killed one animal. Mugabe, for one, has killed thousands of humans. At least some Zimbabwean citizens made some much-needed money off of the lion hunt. I have neither sympathy for the lion nor condemnation for the hunter or his hunting party. Huh. I have enough outrage in me for both the killing of the lion and the killing of the thousands of people. I agree that there's something wrong when people are more worked up over the lion but that doesn't make the killing of the lion less horrible. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Indeed... We eat meat so hunting or not, we can't object to killing of animals for food unless we are prepared to stop. But hunting for sport? And lions at that? How utterly disgusting. I know this is something of a celebrity poaching case but I'm still appalled and I hope the hunter is extradited to jail in Zimbabwe. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I wish the world had one tiny fragment of the indignation they have for Cecil's murder for the murders of hundreds of thousands of African PEOPLE over the past couple of decades. It was a lion in Zimbabwe--a country that has seen enough human bloodshed to float a battleship. Too bad the dentist didn't miss and take out Mugabe instead. I, for one, refuse to sympathize with Zimbabwe over this one. Sincerely, Someone who has been reading The Fate of Africa--all 700 pages of it--this summer I think people are morally appalled at this and less so at the decades of war because (a) people believe (even if wrongly) that Africans are doing it to themselves, because they don't understand the global nature of mining, colonialism, etc. and (b) we can imagine ourselves in the hunter's shoes and saying, "No, it's not worth it, I won't pull the trigger." Imagining ourselves in a guerrilla war in the DRC and standing up to armed drug lords... that is harder to imagine taking on. Hell, I've worked in Africa. I couldn't come close to solving even a whole village's problem in the long run, much less, you know, ending a war. But I can imagine telling this guy off and turning him over to the authorities. The scenario plays out more neatly in my head so I can have an opinion on it. What am I supposed to say about the Lord's Army? What can I say? Send $10/month and adopt a child? You know? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I wish the world had one tiny fragment of the indignation they have for Cecil's murder for the murders of hundreds of thousands of African PEOPLE over the past couple of decades. It was a lion in Zimbabwe--a country that has seen enough human bloodshed to float a battleship. Too bad the dentist didn't miss and take out Mugabe instead. I, for one, refuse to sympathize with Zimbabwe over this one. Sincerely, Someone who has been reading The Fate of Africa--all 700 pages of it--this summer Yeah. The moral outrage for an animal boggles when millions of people are living in slavery or being murdered in cold blood on that same continent right now. I support hunting. He shouldn't have used lures, and that's not sporting. But the drama over this is disproportional to the crime in a big way. *Edited to remain PC* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It isn't confusing that people are affected in different ways by different things. Concern for one thing doesn't mean there's no concern for anything else. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 My guess is he paid big bucks for a guaranteed kill. His guides should have warned him off that particular lion. Had he shot a different one it wouldn't be news and nobody who doesn't already champion this cause would even know about it. I think it's a deplorable "sport" and can only imagine this guy is an arrogant a$$hole, but I'm guessing there were several men just like him who purchased the same "package" and didn't make international news or lose their livelihoods. Or perhaps he should have seen the collar through his scope and a lightbulb should have turned on that this particular lion is not ok to shoot. Honestly? While I don't care for sport hunting in general, I don't think it would or should have been as big an issue as what he did taking out an internationally famous lion that brought fame and tourists to their country. There are certain lines which just shouldn't be crossed even when one differs in thought about something. Cecil may have been "just" a lion to some, but he was a loved lion to many. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The Planned Parenthood videos? Only on the hive does illegal sport hunting (my understanding is that using lures was illegal) go quickly to PP. I have no idea about the videos referenced, just feeling a bit baffled at the jump. Yes, there are bigger causes. That doesn't change the fact that an American sport hunter paid big bucks to go lure out a lion who was special to an area, kill it, then try to cover it up. That doesn't make him a very nice representative of our country. I don't think this is even about hunting, per se. I think it's about someone who thought he could use his privilege and cash to feed his ego, and I think he lacks the ethics of an earthworm. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Is the Planned Parenthood straw man being pushed by conservative media? I've seen three drops of it in FB posts on Cecil and now here. This kind of "hunting" seems sociopathic to me. Sick freak. Seems like these people would get off on hunting people too. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 There are a lot of problems surrounding international trophy hunting. It's very difficult for the hunter to know if her guides actually have the correct permits and there can be a lot of corruption in the distribution of those permits. It's trendy to go to Kyrgyzstan to hunt Marco Polo sheep, for example, but there are only supposed to be 70 permits issued each year at a cost of $5000 each. That opens up a lot of potential for corruption and it definitely happens (here's just one example of many) and can affect the hunter, the guides, and certainly the animals that are illegally poached. And the money definitely does not go to help your average citizen of Kyrgyzstan. The hunter really has no way to know what the effects, either positive or negative, are of the money she is spending. Some hunters say that the animals are more likely to be protected if trophy hunting exists because it increases their economic value and gives incentive to protect them. I think that it's far more worthwhile to encourage ecotourism as a financial incentive to protect animals. I don't think we have to encourage killing some animals to protect the rest. And that increased financial value only increases the potential for corruption. I get that some people love trophy hunting. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to enjoy regular hunting even though I can't personally understand the allure. But I do have a serious problem with people going to other countries, shooting endangered or protected animals illegally or unethically, contributing to corruption that will never personally affect them unless they have the bad luck of getting caught, leaving behind dead animals, and getting glory from their buddies back in the US. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 But the drama over this is disproportional to the crime in a big way. I guess people could say the same thing about anyone famous that gets in the news when they die, after all, there are deaths every day everywhere. Why should an actor or president or singer or famous scientist or _____ get an announcement nationally or worldwide when the average person does not? Why should there be extra outrage when it's murder or something "non-natural?" Those happen everywhere all the time too. Fame brings extras with it. That's part of life. It doesn't matter if you're the shooter or the victim. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 At least some Zimbabwean citizens made some much-needed money off of the lion hunt. There has been quite a bit of discussion about the money brought in by tourism (not hunting, but other tourism, the type of which is encouraged by a "celebrity" lion) is far more beneficial to the country than the few that benefit from these high dollar "hunts". And yes, again, using "hunting" loosely. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Is the Planned Parenthood straw man being pushed by conservative media? I've seen three drops of it in FB posts on Cecil and now here. This kind of "hunting" seems sociopathic to me. Sick freak. Seems like these people would get off on hunting people to I see a strong connection. Killing animals for sport is sociopathic, but killing babies (and selling their body parts) is... what? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 At one point in my life, I gave a lot of thought to the arguments amount the "worthiness" of a cause. People are concerned about whales when people are starving! And yes, I agree that people are more important than whales, although whales are lives worthy of respect. But eventually I decided that people are drawn to the cause that affects them, or touches them, for whatever reason. It doesn't mean they are not concerned about people starving. It's just that when someone wants to work for something or support something, or be concerned or outraged over something, why try to tell them "That's not a good enough cause!" The world is a big place, and many of the problems in it will not likely be solved within our lifetime. Is it wrong from someone to take care of stray kittens when there are kids not eating? Who gets to make that judgment? And sometimes people want to make a difference where it touches them, where they can see a result maybe, instead of just a drop in the bucket. I just think it's wrong to criticize people for trying to help where they can or what they can as if they are stupid or unaware of other problems. We are all different and all touched by different things. Totally disagree that caring about one cause negates caring about another. 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 If all of the allegations against PP turn out to be true, and I freely admit that I do not think they will be, then I'll condemn them too. But I'll still be against international trophy hunting. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Wouldn't abortion be more comparable to the existing, legal, widespread practice of neutering cats and even female cats while pregnant, and disposing of the kitten foeti because nobody is going to pay for them to survive, so why wait until they are big enough to sense that nobody wants them and then find a way to get rid of them after moving them from home to home and putting them in cat / person prison? Seems to me that that's already happening, both the feline/primate abortion practice and the practice of letting some babies come to term and then informing their parents / cat owners that they shouldn't have had children / kittens, and putting the children and/or kittens in institutions where they will learn maladaptive behaviors and be shuffled around until they can't think anymore but certainly are on the defensive all the time. That's hardly news. It happens to people and kitties all the time, like it or not! This is more like a group of people who enjoy killing adult humans, going and finding some celebrity and killing him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 There's something very wrong with anyone who kills for enjoyment. Is it your position that if hunters who kill primarily for meat also enjoy the act of hunting, something's very wrong with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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