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Christian help, church shaming??


Prairie~Phlox
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Ok, I'll try and keep this as brief as possible.  I've been walking with a friend for the last month and a half.  When I first met her, I invited her to the church that we attend and she attended up until another member started his own church and she followed him.  This was probably 4 years ago and I've known her almost 8.  Recently this pastor has started calling her into his office and telling her that her attitude is bad, she was asked not to be on the worship team and so forth.  So right after we started walking, she tole me all of this and I was like "no that is not right."  Well she started to visit our church again, most weeks, but she still goes back to her former church, which I get, she's hurt & confused right now.  I told her he was wrong to do that.  So today I find out more..........

There is a lady in leadership (let's call her T.) at this church and my friend (we'll call her K) K said that T started bringing a guy in a wheel chair (he lives in a veteran's home where T works) to their church.  T was the one that committed to bringing him, but then started asking K if she could pick him up & take him back, it really wasn't on her way, but she likes to help out and is also a people pleaser.  K said he's a very nice guy and has no problems with him, but the wheel chair that he is in is covered in feces and she has light colored seats in her van and just folding things up grosses her out and makes her gag. (she has a very weak stomach, can't handle vomit or blood, etc.)  So K told T that she could not pick him up and bring him or take him home.  Well T starts telling her that that's not the proper thing to do, that she needs to serve and help people out (no my friend K has the biggest heart of anyone that I know) but now she feels guilty because of T shaming her into it, though she still said no.  I told her that that was not right for a church leader to do that.  I'm trying to find an article or something to be able to show her that it's inappropriate. I feel so bad that she's struggling and doubting herself and here the leaders are doing that.  What the heck. 

Any advice?

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Also take a look at the blogs "Spiritual Sounding Board" and "The Wartburg Watch".  They deal repeatedly with church-shaming and spiritual abuse issues.  

And frankly, weak stomach or not, that is just *dangerous* to be dealing with human feces in your car and on your person.  I don't care what color your uphostery is.  That alone is a reason not to do this.  

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I'd just straight up tell them his chair is covered in bodily fluids and you consider it to be a health hazard that you are unqualified to deal with.  Period.  Full stop.  No further explanation.  

 

If they continue to press, tell them if they are so concerned with his well being, perhaps the church leadership (since they are the shepherds, not you) should look into helping him hook up with a Veterans Assistance program since he obviously needs some help.

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... K said he's a very nice guy and has no problems with him, but the wheel chair that he is in is covered in feces and she has light colored seats in her van and just folding things up grosses her out and makes her gag. ..

 

I would also be wondering why the veteran's home is not cleaning the wheelchair (assuming that it is some kind of assisted living facility and not just housing).  It seems like this is something that should be dealt with before he leaves home.  Perhaps the issue can be addressed from this perspective as well - finding someone at the home who could help prepare the man for going out. 

 

It may or may not be something your friend wants to get involved with, but it is something to consider as part of the big picture.  

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On the radio today I heard a brief snippet that a man was sharing. He was talking about people who tell him they don't want to become Christians because they know God will make them do something awful like die on the mission field. His response was that he did not think that was going to happen. When people asked how they determine how/where to serve God, he said it would be where the world's need intersected with their enjoyment. Meaning your service should be something you get joy from.

 

No one should be pushed into serving where it is not a fit for them. She shouldn't feel bad about saying no to this particular area of service.

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If T is working in a home where residents are covered in feces or their chairs are covered with feces then she has a legal, ethical, and biblical obligation to fix the issue. K needs to report this to adult protective services.

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My friend, I can promise you that giving her something to read will not help. I have BTDT. You can try looking her in the eyeball and telling her flat out that what she's experiencing is not normal behavior for a church, and that she needs to get out of there right this very minute. But she has been sucked in, and it is probable that she won't leave until she has been beaten down even further. It is church abuse.

 

ITA, however, that she should report the situation to adult protective services (or whatever the equivalent is where she lives), but I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't, because she's a victim, herself, and victims have a very hard time finding any gumption (it isn't her fault that she has a difficult time finding her gumption, mind you).

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Agreeing with those who say K is being bullied and should not have to transport a person who presents a health hazard.  

 

On the radio today I heard a brief snippet that a man was sharing. He was talking about people who tell him they don't want to become Christians because they know God will make them do something awful like die on the mission field. His response was that he did not think that was going to happen. When people asked how they determine how/where to serve God, he said it would be where the world's need intersected with their enjoyment. Meaning your service should be something you get joy from.

No one should be pushed into serving where it is not a fit for them. She shouldn't feel bad about saying no to this particular area of service.

 

I like the sentiment here but I don't think that's really accurate or a responsible thing to say.  People do die on the mission field.  I've talked to people who say "never in a million years" would they have gone out on the mission field.  Some don't really "enjoy" it though they feel called to it.  

 

That still doesn't mean K has to deal with someone's hazardous waste in order to maintain the good graces of her church leadership.  :-)
 

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My friend, I can promise you that giving her something to read will not help. I have BTDT. You can try looking her in the eyeball and telling her flat out that what she's experiencing is not normal behavior for a church, and that she needs to get out of there right this very minute. But she has been sucked in, and it is probable that she won't leave until she has been beaten down even further. It is church abuse.

 

ITA, however, that she should report the situation to adult protective services (or whatever the equivalent is where she lives), but I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't, because she's a victim, herself, and victims have a very hard time finding any gumption (it isn't her fault that she has a difficult time finding her gumption, mind you).

Then Prairie-Phlox needs to call. I find it very troubling that the empathy on this thread is all being directed to K and not to the veteran.

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Agreeing with those who say K is being bullied and should not have to transport a person who presents a health hazard.

 

 

I like the sentiment here but I don't think that's really accurate or a responsible thing to say. People do die on the mission field. I've talked to people who say "never in a million years" would they have gone out on the mission field. Some don't really "enjoy" it though they feel called to it.

 

That still doesn't mean K has to deal with someone's hazardous waste in order to maintain the good graces of her church leadership. :-)

 

I think it was contextually more an issue of God not dragging people kicking and screaming onto the mission field. Most missionaries don't die on the field, but some certainly do. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this! Iron sharpening iron, and all that. :)

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Then Prairie-Phlox needs to call. I find it very troubling that the empathy on this thread is all being directed to K and not to the veteran.

This issue presented was not how to help the veteran but of spiritual abuse of the OP's friend.

 

And THAT appears to be appalling and alarming.

 

The veteran is a straw man to the issue presented.

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Then Prairie-Phlox needs to call. I find it very troubling that the empathy on this thread is all being directed to K and not to the veteran.

 

I agree that someone needs to try to help the poor guy.   :(  Whom they should contact probably depends on what his living arrangement is right now.  

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I agree that someone needs to try to help the poor guy. :( Whom they should contact probably depends on what his living arrangement is right now.

Prairie-Phlox says he is living in a group home funded by the Veteran's Administration. A.P.S. is the appropriate organization to call.

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am I a horrible person, that my red flags of "run away now" started screaming at "he started his own church?" . . . .

 

Joanne is absolutely correct- the veteran is a strawman.  time to focus.  she is being spiritually abused, by both her "pastor" and "t".  they are attempting to manipulate her.  it we took "church" out of this - most religious people would recognize the manipulation.

 

 

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am I a horrible person, that my red flags of "run away now" started screaming at "he started his own church?" . . . .

 

Joanne is absolutely correct- the veteran is a strawman.  time to focus.  she is being spiritually abused, by both her "pastor" and "t".  they are attempting to manipulate her.  it we took "church" out of this - most religious people would recognize the manipulation.

 

Oh no.  I thought of that too.  

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I would also be wondering why the vereran's home is not cleaning the wheelchair (assuming that it is some kind of assisted living facility and not just housing).  It seems like this is something that should be dealt with before he leaves home.  Perhaps the issue can be addressed from this perspective as well - finding someone at the home who could help prepare the man for going out. 

 

It may or may not be something your friend wants to get involved with, but it is something to consider as part of the big picture.  

 

My mother [Memory Eternal!] never had wheelchair cleaned up by nursing home staff.  After she died, we placed her wheelchair at the curb as trash -- wondering as we did so if we were endangering the neighborhood with bio-hazardous materials. 

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Any advice?

 

I don't know how "spiritual abuse" is any different than "abuse," except for the word "spiritual" is included, but your friend is being played like a sweet violin. She's being emotionally manipulated, and that's not a church thing or spiritual thing or religious thing. Some people are natural manipulators, and some people are easily manipulated. I don't think an article or a book will do anything more than increase her guilt ("I know!" she'll think, "I shouldn't let him do that to me!" but she does, thus one more check mark on the things she feels guilty about).

 

I think you might simply listen politely, and reaffirm her ideas when they are healthy for her. So if she says something to the effect that she just doesn't like wiping off the wheelchair or putting it in her van, validate those feelings. Articulate reasons why her feelings are legitimate and reasonable. She's probably got so much going on in her head right now that more directions (your advice, articles, or books) just confuses her more. If you keep being nice and supportive, she will eventually connect the dots - people aren't wrong for not wanting to be taken advantage of - or she won't. In which case, having a supportive friend who doesn't make her feel guilty is probably a very nice thing to have.

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I think people tend to take things like this and make them into big complicated mountains.  (I'm not talking about anyone's responses here on this thread.)  I would just tell your friend, "Don't do it.  I wouldn't!" (regarding picking up the gentleman) and "Leave that church, now.  They're  taking advantage of you!"  (regarding the church).

 

Sometimes, all people need is one smart person in their lives to speak the simple truth.

 

 

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am I a horrible person, that my red flags of "run away now" started screaming at "he started his own church?" . . . .

 

Nope, it doesn't get any redder or flaggier than that.

 

I agree with many others--you need to look her in the eye and state it flat-out:

 

He's nothing but a con man and the people serving him are helping him con--con people like you. You aren't alone. Many people have gotten sucked into things and you can still get out. Come to church with me. Stay away from those people. They will hurt you more.

 

I wouldn't dignify this with the term "spiritual". There is nothing spiritual about this kind of abuse. It's a con, plain and simple, and it's a con as long as people are tithing and serving this man. Blech. She needs to get out.

 

And if she's worried about the vet, assure her that it can be between her and the home if she really has a heart for helping that individual. She doesn't need to do anything with the con/cult "church" at all to help a veteran.

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On the radio today I heard a brief snippet that a man was sharing. He was talking about people who tell him they don't want to become Christians because they know God will make them do something awful like die on the mission field. His response was that he did not think that was going to happen. When people asked how they determine how/where to serve God, he said it would be where the world's need intersected with their enjoyment. Meaning your service should be something you get joy from.

 

No one should be pushed into serving where it is not a fit for them. She shouldn't feel bad about saying no to this particular area of service.

 

I agree with what others have written, but especially this.  No one should be told how they should be serving or shamed into serving or volunteering for something they're are not comfortable  doing.  That's just wrong.

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Nope, it doesn't get any redder or flaggier than that.

 

I agree with many others--you need to look her in the eye and state it flat-out:

 

He's nothing but a con man and the people serving him are helping him con--con people like you. You aren't alone. Many people have gotten sucked into things and you can still get out. Come to church with me. Stay away from those people. They will hurt you more.

 

I wouldn't dignify this with the term "spiritual". There is nothing spiritual about this kind of abuse. It's a con, plain and simple, and it's a con as long as people are tithing and serving this man. Blech. She needs to get out.

 

And if she's worried about the vet, assure her that it can be between her and the home if she really has a heart for helping that individual. She doesn't need to do anything with the con/cult "church" at all to help a veteran.

 

ah - multi quote is still not working. . . . . .

 

I do like using the term "CON".   

 

I don't remember who in the hive shared the story, but I remember it.  she met someone studying to be a minister, and he made some (serious) crack about how much money he could make from having his own church -  (that was all he was interested in.  making money.)

 

I would still put it in perspective of using religion as a tool as a means of control, etc. and that this is NOT christianity. it can help to separate what is true from what is a con in her mind.   

 

OP - these are ravening wolves in sheep's clothing - tell her that.  the NT warns about them.

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I don't know how "spiritual abuse" is any different than "abuse," except for the word "spiritual" is included, but your friend is being played like a sweet violin. She's being emotionally manipulated, and that's not a church thing or spiritual thing or religious thing. Some people are natural manipulators, and some people are easily manipulated. I don't think an article or a book will do anything more than increase her guilt ("I know!" she'll think, "I shouldn't let him do that to me!" but she does, thus one more check mark on the things she feels guilty about).

 

I think you might simply listen politely, and reaffirm her ideas when they are healthy for her. So if she says something to the effect that she just doesn't like wiping off the wheelchair or putting it in her van, validate those feelings. Articulate reasons why her feelings are legitimate and reasonable. She's probably got so much going on in her head right now that more directions (your advice, articles, or books) just confuses her more. If you keep being nice and supportive, she will eventually connect the dots - people aren't wrong for not wanting to be taken advantage of - or she won't. In which case, having a supportive friend who doesn't make her feel guilty is probably a very nice thing to have.

:iagree: I need a Love button for this entire post. You can love her, but she needs to find it in herself to just say no.
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I don't know how "spiritual abuse" is any different than "abuse," except for the word "spiritual" is included, but your friend is being played like a sweet violin. She's being emotionally manipulated, and that's not a church thing or spiritual thing or religious thing. Some people are natural manipulators, and some people are easily manipulated. I don't think an article or a book will do anything more than increase her guilt ("I know!" she'll think, "I shouldn't let him do that to me!" but she does, thus one more check mark on the things she feels guilty about).

 

I think you might simply listen politely, and reaffirm her ideas when they are healthy for her. So if she says something to the effect that she just doesn't like wiping off the wheelchair or putting it in her van, validate those feelings. Articulate reasons why her feelings are legitimate and reasonable. She's probably got so much going on in her head right now that more directions (your advice, articles, or books) just confuses her more. If you keep being nice and supportive, she will eventually connect the dots - people aren't wrong for not wanting to be taken advantage of - or she won't. In which case, having a supportive friend who doesn't make her feel guilty is probably a very nice thing to have.

 

 

Because the language, pattterns, rhythm, and dynamics have components specific to "believers", "church", (in this case) Christian theology. Of course it is "abuse" but to understand it fully, one must *also* understand the context - it is a highly contextual play out.

 

But you know that, and your point was kinda obnoxious.

 

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I just love the "I won't do X but YOU have to and if you don't, YOU  have a bad attitude and are in the wrong."  If T feels so strongly about it, let HER take care of the situation.  If the pastor feels so strongly about it, let HIM take care of the situation.

 

The entire situation is not right.  K is NOT responsible for this man, nor is she responsible for how T or the pastor react.  They know she is a people pleaser and are playing into that to manipulate her.  It is WRONG on so many levels.

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Agreeing with those who say K is being bullied and should not have to transport a person who presents a health hazard.  

 

 

I like the sentiment here but I don't think that's really accurate or a responsible thing to say.  People do die on the mission field.  I've talked to people who say "never in a million years" would they have gone out on the mission field.  Some don't really "enjoy" it though they feel called to it.  

 

That still doesn't mean K has to deal with someone's hazardous waste in order to maintain the good graces of her church leadership.  :-)

 

 

 

I grew up on the mission field.  My parents are missionaries.  My grandparents were missionaries.   My grandpa's first wife died on the mission field as have many of our missionaries with our mission.

 

However, I have never heard someone say they truly hated it and stayed anyway.  We have had people leave because somehow they didn't have a realistic picture of what it would be like.  I think some idealize what living in "deepest darkest" will be like and when it is nothing like what they envisioned, they go home.  That is ok.  I do wish someone had painted a much more realistic picture for them (and maybe they have but it didn't quite sink in) but they do get to leave.

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