Expectations of a struggling reader

[countrygal]

I feel like this post belongs on the learning challenges board (first post here.) DS is likely dyslexic. He is 9 1/2 and going into 4th grade this fall. He learned all his letter sounds, phonograms and most phonics and spelling rules rather quickly... the OG ones.... like within months by middle of first grade. Blending and fluency has been sooooooo slooowwww. Years in the making. We've done parts of phonics pathways and he could read most of the book now, just not well and without struggles (truly reading torture for him), the first level of dancing bears under a couple months I believe. Phonic readers drive him nuts although he can do it. There wasn't much progress as far as reading without sounding robotic with those even after reading and re-reading the same ones. We also did SWR for 1st and 2nd grade, which he liked the most because he always asks to write the words (drove me crazy....) but never was able to transition into reading like it claims. I discovered Reading Lessons through Literature. He did the first book September to April during 3rd grade and has finally been picking up the pace. He did the second book in 2 1/2 months. Now we are starting the third. It's going ok, maybe I'm expecting the snowball effect but it just seems so slow again. It's not even the big words. It's using 'a' instead of 'the' and 'when' is 'then'. Almost all the time he still pronounces a d when it a b. (Bat=dat... he even asks "What is a dat?" He knows it doesn't make sense but can't connect: 'gee... it probably means bat because dat isn't a word.') He ALWAYS writes B and D right though! In fact, he writes better than he reads. Most of the time he seems to understand what he is reading as well.. he'll laugh or tell me a sentence doesn't make sense (which tells me the other ones probably do make sense to him.) His reading level is probably early 2nd grade maybe.... He was able to read One Fish Two Fish recently but Frog and Toad is still a struggle! I think he has made SO much progress, but then I look at where we are at and the fact it has taking 4 years to get here... it is extremely discouraging at the same time.

I'm not really looking for help as far as what curriculum or therapy to use. He knows it all. I want to know, will it always be a struggle? Why, after practicing and practicing, simple sentences don't seem very fluent? Part of me thinks he is not wanting to work hard at it because it is hard for him, but then he is compounding the problem but not applying himself! I do believe he is trying but I think he wants to do as least as possible. I want to add in more time for reading which is when he pushes back! He has no other issues. He flies through math and loves cursive handwriting. With how I have described him, how much should I be requiring him to read every day? He's only doing about 20 minutes plus reviewing word lists from RLTL during the summer. (Trying to catch him in the summer has been difficult!) For the most part, I listen to all he is reading because sometimes he needs help, at least the first time he reads a story. Is it ok to just let him figure things out otherwise? I'm afraid he's going to mess up a lot of words or be sitting there for 20 minutes and not have read more than 2 sentences because he gave up... There is only so much time I can give before he just needs to tough it out and do it already. I have thought about having him read it to himself first and then read the same story later to me (he reads most stories twice anyway.)  I NEED him to reading his own history, science, and readers by 5th grade! I have 4 youngers. At some point he just needs to read most of his work and read the directions and follow it, right??

Thanks for listening to my rambling. I am in the discouraged part of the cycle, obviously. I'm not sure what I am suppose to expect or require. I never struggled with school so I don't know what my expectations or requirements should be for him. He was shocked when I said he would be needing to read some of his history, too. He evidently isn't aware that kids are suppose to do that on their own... I need encouragement that he will read fluently some day (soon!?!)

[MysteryJen]

In my experience, yes, it will be a struggle. Because that is how his brain is wired. It is hard work to read. My dd2 works harder than I ever did with reading and she will for her whole life. If you need him to be able to work independently you have to help him do that. Audio books, flashcards, apps, whatever will help, is what you need to do. Frequent breaks to recharge will make work more efficient. Because the brain gets tired.

 

It is a hard thing to understand that even once you get them to grade level or even an acceptable level, the problem does not go away. It will raise its head on standardized tests where the math section is really a reading comprehension section, a new textbook, new requirements.

For me, when I get frustrated, I think of the thing I am worst at and try to imagine that I have to do it every day, all day. And at every turn I am reminded that other people can do it with ease and can't understand why I can't do it better. That usually resets my patience and reminds me that even if I am the teacher, I need to be her biggest cheerleader.

[PeterPan]

You could do 4-5 levels of Barton in a year and have him reading at/above grade level.  My ds is very similar, dyslexic and gifted, and I hear you on that crazy gap where he can memorize so fast but still needs time to process and develop fluency.  The problems you're describing would be solved by Barton.  The tools you need are in Barton.  I think we talked years ago, and you know I used SWR extensively with my dd.  Not even close to what ds needs.  

 

You'd be happier doing Barton quickly and actually having progress, rather than using things not meant for dyslexia that don't fill the gap.  Get Barton.

 

After ds' diagnosis in October, we resumed LIPS and began Barton 1.  He's now in Barton 4.  We aren't even as seriously diligent as I'd like to be.  We just work, have fun, take days off.  We'd actually be in Barton 5 now if we had kept pace.  Seriously.  And my ds can read a chapter out of the Bible aloud, read street signs, and thinks he's an awesome reader.  Get Barton, go back to the beginning, go faster, build the fluency, fill in the holes.  What he doesn't have is fluency, and when you see how brilliantly Barton gets you there you'll wonder why you delayed.  Barton is AWESOME.  I kiss the ground she walks on.  I send her emails every so often offering smooches, accolades, and cookies.  It's everything you're needing.  Not a budget price, but the resale is good.

 

Adding: I use Quizlet for fluency.  I put all the word, phrase, and sentences lists from our Barton lessons into Quizlet and I drill them till they're solid.  Barton makes that easy for me, giving me so much material.  SWR covers tons of things at once and expects them to generalize it.  Barton digs in and says let's get this ONE THING really solid.  And that's what you do.  And it's enough WORK that the bright dc doesn't find it boring, even though it's not, ostensibly, moving them toward their goal.  It's quite challenging.  

 

Also, another thing about Barton people don't discuss is that the sentences tend to be very mature and interesting.  She has marvelous stories (full page!) that they begin reading quite early on.  So even though your ds will be familiar with a phonogram or rule, he won't have APPLIED the concepts with this much of a level of challenge.  Barton is inherently practical, an applied approach that's going to get him READING, not just wallowing around.

 

Another thing people don't realize about Barton, coming from SWR, is how incomplete SWR was.  Barton uses a lot more rules and breaks things into little components so our kids can notice things.  I think my dd would have been a lot better speller if she had been taught so explicitly.  So even though you've gone through SWR, I *guarantee* you there's a lot left to learn.  Level 4 blows my mind with the things we're learning that seem so obvious and useful.  Then you realize they weren't even covered in SWR.  Unbelievable.

[countrygal]

Thank you both for his responses. I understand reading isn't going to ever be easy for him. We are both glad how far he has come. I don't think he knows how far he has to go. I just want him to be able to do it at a reasonable level. I feel like he's hardly going to be 4th grade reading level in high school at this rate.

 

I like the Reading Lessons through Literature because we phonetically take apart all the words before he encounters them in the text. He does read these words over and over in the text. It has helped so much. The first two books had the words hyphenated between syllables and that has helped him now read when the word isn't hyphenated.... But then I wonder, where does he go after that? I don't feel like he's just going to jump into reading history after all the levels anymore. And why, after reading these words hundreds of times, does he still struggle when he comes across them? And I'm talking about words like "how" "land" "its", etc. He can spell them and write them down but when it's an ingoing message he just struggles.

 

I have looked at Barton several times in the last couple years. Looking at it I always feel like he knows all these things. I do like the fact that she teaches syllables better, or at all for that matter. It isn't covered well in any program I've found. I need something that brings fluency and I can't find a program that promises that. That's why I figure that we'll just keep reading everyday and it'll come. But it never comes. If you can promise that Barton will bring fluency, I'll do it! Barton also bothers me because I don't do well with scripted lessons. I sit and stare at the book trying to figure out what to say cuz I'm reading and rereading it and that is frustrating for my student :) I have watched several of her videos and I don't do well with videos, in this case she talks so slow and it gets on my nerves.... Yes, these are the things that have prevented me from buying it!!! I just haven't wanted to spend the money on something won't work. Again. So I plug away... then I look back and look ahead and realize we have so far to go and not enough time. I gave him the Barton screening this past spring and he passed it all with flying colors.... so I was like "He isn't that bad." Then Frog and Toad makes him cry. I don't know if he can even try harder. He's trying so hard. If Barton can make him progress without burning him out, I'll do it.

 

 

[Storygirl]

countrygal, my DD10 has just been evaluated by a neuropsych for dyslexia, and we are waiting for results. I encourage you to have some professional evaluations for your son, so that you know exactly what his weaknesses are. My daughter, for example, has problems that are the opposite of your son's -- she has extreme difficulty learning phonograms but can read more fluently -- but they both might be considered dyslexic. In your position, I would want to explore whether there is an auditory or visual component to your son's difficulties, so that you would be able to target those areas with remediation if necessary.

 

Another benefit of having evaluations is establishing a paper trail documenting his disability, so that he can apply to receive accommodations on the SAT and ACT in high school. My understanding is that they want to see official evidence of a long-term problem.

 

I completely understand your frustration. The blunt truth is that he may not ever have the reading skills that you say you need him to have. You may need to rethink what his schoolwork will look like if you need him to be independent. He may need to listen to audio books instead of reading them, or use technology that allows him to read and listen at the same time. Or he may learn by watching videos. He may need accommodations to be able to produce grade-level writing in future years. Be prepared for him to have an increasing amount of trouble in subjects that he does well in now, as the requirements for reading textbooks or complicated math problems increase. In other words, even if you improve his fluency in the short term, he may continue to struggle in the long term.

 

The good news is that there are resources and technology that we can access to help our children, and people with dyslexia often have strengths in areas other than reading. I have suspected dyslexia for long time -- even when DD was a preschooler there were some warning signs -- but hoped that if we could maybe get past her initial problems that things would be easier after that. Well, DD can read now, so we jumped that hurdle, but nothing is easier. Things are getting harder in different ways.

 

I don't want to be discouraging, but I want you to be prepared. If your son has dyslexia, mastering fluency won't solve the problems once and for all. I know it's hard to educate multiple children when one or more has LDs. I have four children, and two of them struggle with learning disorders. The other two need lots of help from me as well, and I feel torn and overwhelmed. When I focus on the needs of one, I feel that I'm neglecting the needs of others. I see that kind of frustration and tension in your post, and I just wanted to say that I understand your feelings. Homeschooling when learning disabilities are involved is hard. It just is. :grouphug:

[geodob]

Though your judgement of his reading fluency, seems to be based on his 'reading out loud' fluency'?

Which is really an unnatural way of reading.

Where most fluent adult readers, will have a difficulty with reading out loud.

Also they will have difficulty with making sense of what they read out loud.

 

While speech is spoken word by word.

Reading is visually processed as 'blocks of words'.

So that words are read in a context.

As opposed to reading 'word by word'.

 

We can also 'sub-vocalise' and hear the words as we read.

But with reading, this can be used as a 'high-lighter',  rather than sounding out every word.

Which can also be used for decoding new words.

 

So perhaps you check what his comprehension is like?

When he reads silently to himself, rather than reading out loud?

[ssavings]

If you can get an official diagnosis, you can maybe get him qualified for Learning Ally and/or Bookshare. That would offer him audiobooks as an option to traditional books sometimes. I also have been liking Whispersync on the Kindle. She can hear the book and read the book simultaneously on her Kindle. 

I am not experienced enough to say if the fluency will ever get better... but I can say that I know many, many successful dyslexics. Some use methods like text-to-audio converters to functional to their highest capacity in a workplace, some don't. 

[Plink]

He knows it all.  he is compounding the problem but not applying himself! I do believe he is trying but I think he wants to do as least as possible.

 

There is only so much time I can give before he just needs to tough it out and do it already.

 

I NEED him to reading his own history, science, and readers by 5th grade! I have 4 youngers. At some point he just needs to read most of his work and read the directions and follow it, right??

First, ((hugs)) I remember that frustration. It is so hard to parent a struggling reader!

 

He obviously does not "know it all."  If he did, you wouldn't be having these issues.  He needs you to recognize that he isn't doing this to bug you or to get out of work.  He is truly doing his best, but his brain doesn't have the ability to see ink and say /ink/ instantly, even if you just reviewed it 2 minutes ago.  It is NOT defiance, and discipline, pushing harder, and getting frustrated are only going to compound your issues.  (been there, done that, deeply regret it)

 

As others have said, it is time to get a professional evaluation.  They can tell you exactly where the disconnect is and get you in touch with trained tutors to help remediate the problem.

 

Simply assigning independent reading in content subjects is going to spread his struggles from one area to two.  Don't do it.  Use audio books, read aloud, or work with a good immersion reading device, but don't throw him in the deep end without a rope.  He needs you just as much as the little kids do.

 

You could do 4-5 levels of Barton in a year and have him reading at/above grade level.  

Barton is amazing, but 4-5 levels in one year isn't do-able for most students.   The website recommends planning to spend 3-5 months per level.  Not trying to be contrary OhE, I just don't want the OP to feel discouraged if her child takes longer.  

 

If nothing else, you can request the pre-tests for each level (From the sounds of your posts, you have only done the test for level 1) and see where your kid's skills start to fall apart.  Mine seemed to "know her letter sounds" but failed even the entry test for level 1, which bopped us all the way back to LiPS.  I'm glad we back-tracked because there were a lot of holes to be filled that I didn't see at the outset.

 

I need something that brings fluency and I can't find a program that promises that. 

Fluency comes with repetition, decoding lots nonsense words, and time.  You will get there!

 

Personally, I liked the progress we were making with Barton, but decided to hire a Wilson Tutor.  It has saved my sanity.  I am a great teacher, but listening to a child painstakingly sound out the word cat for the 4th year in a row was starting to make me a bad mom.  I was frustrated, and that was starting to show.  When we switched to having the tutor deliver the new material twice a week, and me simply reviewing it, we got our relationship back into the right place again.  The progress wasn't any faster, but the process was more enjoyable.  Also, during the time that the tutor was working with DD, I can be watching my little one do penmanship, or supervising DS' science experiment.  

[PeterPan]

Plink, 2 caveats, 1 being willing to work HARD and mercilessly over an hour a day, 2, gifted, and 3 we worked on RAN/RAS quite a bit.

 

Country, I think you should talk with s really kick butt tutor. Our psych was ADAMANT that ds could get significant progress in a matter of months with effective intervention. The tutor he recommended said she could get s 4 gr level jump in a year with a gifted child. Obviously not every child. Point is I had to believe progress was possible and not have low expectations. Our psych and tutor set a high standard and my conclusion was if I couldn't make that happen I would pay.

 

Yes, you're underestimating the change you could get with Barton and RANRAS work or with a good tutor. That's not every kid; I'm saying your kid.

 

When we started working really hard on this Heathermomster wrote me and said its HARD and that many people aren't willing to do what it would take. It wears him out to do Barton, but the results are worth it

[MysteryJen]

As my dyslexic approaches high school, I have found that I need to think about learning the content by any means necessary, not what it looks like from the outside. She needs skills for college certainly, but focusing too much on what she is supposed to be doing (reading independently, learning primarily from textbooks) is short-changing her education.

She needs to figure out now how to best help herself be successful.

[imagine.more]

I agree with what some others have said. What especially struck me is that if he's still switching b and d his dyslexia is not actually remediated. DD almost never does that now after just 1.5 years of Barton and she was about as bad as they come when we started :)

 

And fluency will always be the last piece of the puzzle in reading but we've also seen improvement in that with Barton. We do the fluency drills religiously because DD really desperately needs them and slowly but surely it has helped.

 

I think you need either Barton or another fully OG program that will teach the syllable types explicitly. Syllables are truly the key to unlocking reading; that ability to chunk words helps with fluency so much too.

[countrygal]

Thanks for all the replies! I've wrote all of them down. I will look into getting him evaluated. It seems as though every time I decide to do that, he improves. But then it seems he goes backwards again! I know he is working so hard and I don't want to push him. I'm not sure much to make him do everyday. He's fine with doing what he's doing, I just wanted to add in a second session of 10-15 minutes later in the day for review but I'm not sure if that's a good idea because I don't want to wear him out. I have thought about audio and I know he would enjoy more of those things. I don't want to 'give' up and give in to them but I know that's ridiculous! I feel stuck about he tutor. I would like to do it but we live 30 miles from the nearest city which has one, but I'll contact them and see what schedules they recommend.

 

What is RAN/RAS?

 

Also, is All About Reading a good choice? I'm concerned about enough review to build fluency. Especially with syllables :) Part of me says he isn't 'bad enough' for Barton, although I know he would do very well with it.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

You mentioned that your rising 4th grader struggles to read a Frog and Toad book.  That indicates to me that he needs testing so you can target the source of his learning issues.  Dyslexics require systematic, explicit, and multisensory instruction.  To provide that high degree of teaching, you can attend a OG training workshop and become qualified, hire an OG certified tutor, or watch the Barton videos and teach your child.  We have moms that use various programs to close the reading gaps, and that's great if you want that approach.  I don't care for a lot of trial and error.  Anyhoo..

 

Prior to making any more educational decisions, maybe read Overcoming Dyslexia by Dr. Shaywitz to get a better handle on what you are dealing with.  Dyslexia has been highly studied and researched for years.

[PeterPan]

One Barton makes the steps so small and gentle they never feel painful. It just builds. Two don't hold him back for your own emotions. Get real dyslexia materials and let him read. Not AAR. Barton is better. Most explicit and the most tools to help him succeed. Why screw around? Three every day you force him to learn only through his disability rather through means he CAN learn well by is a day of intellectually appropriate learning lost. My ds ear reads jack London, Dumas, Freedman and all sorts of authors he won't eye read for years. The tutor told me they push hard on interventions because the want to bridge the gap ASAP. The days not reading at IQ level means they re not growing in vocabulary and sentence structure. It's imperative for their future reading comprehension and writing that they get that input.

 

If you're feeling sorrow and grieving over this, could I suggest a cover your butt approach? Like maybe you DONT need Barton, but if you get it then you KNOW you have the tools to bust through this, nothing holding him back...

[ssavings]

 

What is RAN/RAS?

 

 

Rapid Automatized Naming and Rapid Alternating Stimulus. It was done as a subtest as part of our speech-language evaluation, and I think it's fairly standard to do as part of a dyslexia eval. 

 

There's a correlation between the ability to rapidly name objects/colors and the ability to build reading fluency; RAN/RAS subtesting can identify if reading fluency might be an issue for DC. 

 

FWIW, my daughter scored in the 5th percentile for rapid object naming and the 2nd percentile for rapid color naming. Ad we're seeing it influence a lot of various areas of her education. We're remediating 10 min a day with colored dots worksheets (we're using OE's that she made, and a set I found on Teachers-pay-Teachers), before moving to objects, letters, numbers, and mixed (colors, objects, numbers, letters). 

[Gilina]

My ten year old is 2e also, a memory to die for, math skills that make my head spin, but reading that hurts to listen to (dyslexia).  

 

The biggest breakthrough for him with his reading and decoding was actually something so simple I kick myself for not highlighting it sooner.  It is that letters are just pictures of sounds - those with dyslexia often think in pictures (my son does and is quite articulate about it) - my son's lightbulb moment with reading was that the letters are just that, a picture of a sound and those sounds all blend together into words.

 

Over the last month to six-weeks, he's taken leaps and bounds with his reading as we've hammered away at letters and letter combinations = pictures of sounds, and works on strategies for decoding (ie. counting vowels for syllables, one consonant runs, two split, blends stay together, etc.).  I've been using two things - Logic of English Essentials and Reading Horizon's workbook (for decoding strategies).  I also switched him to cursive (he loves it) so all letters start at the baseline (we'll move to include capital letters next month), which is helping with b and d for him.  He uses his hands as his prompt for b and d if he gets to a word and isn't sure (left is b, right is d.....or bat before the ball, doorknob before the door).

 

Our day right now is:

Review previous Logic of English lesson

Harder spelling list from previous Logic of English lesson

Break

First part of next Logic of English lesson

Reading Horizons workbook page

Reading out loud together (he'll do five pages, I'll do five pages - currently we're reading Little House in the Big Woods)

Review harder spelling list words together and where he had errors 

Break

Second part of Logic of English lesson

Penmanship using the spelling words form LOE

Reading our loud together (he'll do five more pages, I'll do five more pages)

 

Each day we're spending 2-3 hours on reading and spelling.  He loves LOE and actually is happy when we're starting each day - he says it makes sense to him and that he feels like it is helping him read better because it makes sense in his head.  Little House in the Big Woods is the first book he's read that, while he struggles with some words, he is really enjoying reading it and looks forward to it each day....we take turns so he can also hear automaticity and fluent reading and while I do the reading he follows along.  Our summer is ONLY reading and language arts this year - he's way ahead in math and science, so I'm not even looking at them over the summer.  For history, which he enjoys, he's watching one of the DVD programs from The Great Courses on his own for American History....no book work with it though, he's just watching the video lessons.

 

 

 

[Gilina]

I wanted to add that fifth grade, last year, the work in content subjects - the level of reading required - was a lot for my son.  We did a lot of audio books and signed up with Learning Ally to get many of his textbooks in audio format so he could read along while listening to the book read to him.  He was able to stay on pace with everything as it was in audio for him without me needing to read it all to him - it was a lot to read if he had to do it silently and I'm pretty sure he would have been very discouraged by the amount to read if he didn't have the audio option.  You may want to look into it as it is definitely helpful to have!