A sticky social situation

[Storygirl]

I could use some help thinking this through. Background for those who don't know -- DS11 has NVLD, and his has trouble reading social cues and knowing what is appropriate. Personality wise, he also tends to be a risk taker and a boundary pusher. He doesn't always accept instruction in behavior from us easily, which I think is a combination of wanting to do things his own way and not really grasping the importance of learning new social behaviors. So I think partly he doesn't get it, and partly he is just kind of naturally assertive. I think the social problems are part disability and part personality.

 

We've had a few social stumbles since we moved to our new town this spring. One incident happened at a neighbor's house a couple of weeks ago. Something new just happened yesterday/today with the same neighbors. I'm wondering how to address it with the neighbors and with my son. We have enjoyed getting to know the whole family, because we share many things in common. We are all Christians; they are former homeschoolers whose children have some SN; one of the schools that we are considering for the fall is where their children now go; both families are looking for a new church, so we have attended some worship services together. We are friends. I don't want them to decide that my son is an inappropriate friend for their children. The neighbor children brought something to my attention this morning and said, "Don't tell my mom that we told you about this. We don't want to be told we can't play with you guys any more." So I have reason to be concerned that this could happen.

 

A little more background -- In our old neighborhood, there were no other children on our street to play with, and we really didn't do playdates, so DS11's social relationships were mainly his siblings and his gymnastics teammates. He did have a few teammates that he considered friends, and he was invited to go to one boy's house once, but most of his interaction with them was very structured during class. So having friends to run around with in the neighborhood is a new thing for him.

 

The complicating factor is that the neighbor children who are his age are girls; there is one 14 year old boy who plays with my boys sometimes but not always. DS11 is always upset when the girls want to play without the boys. He says it's not fair. He cries. He gets angry. We talk. We tell him that the girls don't have to play with the boys every time and that he should find something fun to do on his own or with his brother No matter how many times we have gone over this with him, it doesn't make a difference; he is just as upset the next time it happens (several times a week).

 

So here is the situation. The neighbor girls say that DS11 left a note at their house yesterday saying something about them having to stop excluding the boys. I don't know what his exact words were. If I learned that it was something mean, I wouldn't be surprised, sadly enough.The parents did not let their children read the note but said that they would handle it. The girls said their dad was angry (no way to know if that is accurate or if they are exaggerating). I haven't heard anything from the parents myself, so perhaps they have decided not to mention it.

 

So what should I do? Should I bring this up to the parents, even though their children asked me not to? I already explained to my son that the note was inappropriate. I would consider having him write an apology.

 

I also don't know how to teach my son about these kind of social things, because discussing it (multiple times) does not change his behavior. He also likes to test rules and boundaries, so if we tell him he cannot do something, he is almost sure to try it to see for himself what will happen :huh: .

 

The neighbor kids are here at my house this afternoon, so they have not been forbidden to interact with my son at this point.

 

If I got a note like this from a neighbor child, I personally would not make it a big deal, even if I found it inappropriate. I'm guessing that the parents aren't really that upset. But if DS keeps doing things that they consider inappropriate, I can see that it might have a cumulative negative effect, so that they decide he is trouble or a bad influence on their kids,

[FairProspects]

A note? Yeah, that would be no big deal. Normal kid stuff. I would mention it in passing to the parents to make sure it wasn't wildly inappropriate with swearing or name calling, but that is how I am. If the parents were upset, I'd ask ds to apologize in person. But learning how to deal with being left out and what do about it is completely normal socially for this age. Believe me, all middle school teachers are working on these kinds of social issues. To me, this isn't an issue specific to SN at all.

[MomatHWTK]

I think at some point, you have to gently introduce the concept of real world consequences to your child.  I know this is difficult for Sn kids who have trouble understanding social issues.  Mine is older and we are just now getting into some of those explanations.  But he needs to know that fair or not, things that you might get over or forgive outsiders might not.  If he pushes the boundries with other people, then there may be real consequences.  (BTW, if you are going with not telling the parents you know per the request of the children, then you can't do an apology note.) 

 

I would probably sit down with my DS and say "Look, if you do that again, they aren't going to let you play any more. These are the rules. The girls don't have to play with you and if you continue to complain, note or not, I'm not going to let you go over."  Then, I would give him one more chance and if he got angry in an inappropriate way again I wouldn't let him visit with the family for probably 2 weeks.  I would be OK with him coming home and then expressing his frustration, because it is better to let feelings out than to bottle them up.   But I would not allow him to express that anger to the other children involved.  Again, my child is slightly older so that may make a different in how firm you are with the punishment.  But in my experience it sometimes takes firm enforcement of the rules to achieve real behavior changes.  I hate doing it, but it is necessary to help my child develop.  KWIM? 

[Junie]

I think at some point, you have to gently introduce the concept of real world consequences to your child.  I know this is difficult for Sn kids who have trouble understanding social issues.  Mine is older and we are just now getting into some of those explanations.  But he needs to know that fair or not, things that you might get over or forgive outsiders might not.  If he pushes the boundries with other people, then there may be real consequences.  (BTW, if you are going with not telling the parents you know per the request of the children, then you can't do an apology note.) 

 

I would probably sit down with my DS and say "Look, if you do that again, they aren't going to let you play any more. These are the rules. The girls don't have to play with you and if you continue to complain, note or not, I'm not going to let you go over."  Then, I would give him one more chance and if he got angry in an inappropriate way again I wouldn't let him visit with the family for probably 2 weeks.  I would be OK with him coming home and then expressing his frustration, because it is better to let feelings out than to bottle them up.   But I would not allow him to express that anger to the other children involved.  Again, my child is slightly older so that may make a different in how firm you are with the punishment.  But in my experience it sometimes takes firm enforcement of the rules to achieve real behavior changes.  I hate doing it, but it is necessary to help my child develop.  KWIM? 

 

:iagree:

 

I think this is very good advice.  I think that he needs to know that the girls are not doing anything wrong by excluding him sometimes.  Sometimes girls want to play with just girls.  

 

I remember that my brother was the only boy in our house growing up.  My sister and I enjoyed watching cartoons with him, but playing Barbies was awkward.  We had a few too many scenarios of Barbie marrying He-Man.   :laugh:

 

Ds14 is the only boy here.  Yes, sometimes he feels left out.  Unfortunately, it's part of life.  :(

[PeterPan]

Never let it be said I know how to handle neighbors.  ;)   It wouldn't occur to me to talk with them or care about their opinion, however if they came to me I would use the label, basically just saying he has a diagnosis that's like autism, that you're on it, apologize, and you're working on it.  It might kick in some sensitivity on their part.  Those girls COULD decide to have a harem or some other more inclusive play.  It's not like they HAVE to exclude him.  (You know I'm joking about the harem part.  I'm just saying they could TRY.)

 

Seems to me it's time to get him into a social group that WILL get him friends, either because of common interests or common disabilities or something.  You can't just remove and not replace; that's not fair.  It doesn't sound like the neighborhood is providing him social experiences, so he's going to need to get that other ways.  You can't assume he'll get it in school, because he'll be unusual even within the schools.  So his friends are going to have to come through a social group or some other way where he has something in common with the people.

 

If you get that IEP and apply for the scholarship in November, you want social skills in the IEP so you can get therapy.  In fact, that might be a way to look for your provider for applying.  Go through the provider list and see who you want to use for social skills and that's who you'll apply through.  To get social skills into the IEP, you need either pragmatics or an autism label.  To get pragmatics, that's with pragmatics testing by an SLP and the school does it.  I would do that BEFORE you do any interventions.  Don't shoot yourself in the foot here, kwim?  Get the pragmatics testing done by the school, then begin any interventions.  There are effective interventions available, but you want the funding meaning you need that testing done.

 

Now as far as behavior, you might look at this book.  I have a LOT of criticism for it, because it has some serious flaws.  However it might give you a little boldness on the question of whether you're allowed to require compliance if that makes sense.  I'm finding this issue of christian discipline within serious social delays is challenging, because the main tool we've been given all these years by the church is spanking, something that relies on inferences and obviously backfires on a lot of levels with our kids, wow.  Now I'm going to link the book. Too Wise to be Mistaken, Too Good to be Unkind: Christian Parents Contend with Autism You'll see it's endorsed by Tedd Tripp, an avowed spanker, and frankly I think the book has so many flaws he shouldn't have endorsed it.  However the one thing it does well, in a sea of flaws (and I mean really HIDEOUS flaws, like suggesting it's ok to hit your child on the face), is suggest that it's *ok* to require compliance.  My ds doesn't understand all things, but after reading the book I decided to see if I could get *some* measure of calm compliance, even if it's without understanding.  So I ask for: 1) eye contact, 2) a calm repetition of my statement (something simple like: I'm sorry I hit you), and 3) a hug.  And if he hurts me with the hug, we back up and start over for that (eye contact, I'm sorry I hurt you, hug).  And if he shouts and can't modulate and stay calm, we repeat.  And that can go on a while, because he has a really hard time modulating.  I keep the language simple, because that's where he's at.  No inferences, nothing ethereal like forgive vs. sorry, nothing long.  

 

What I'm finding is if I can get eye contact, he sort of calms down and starts laughing.  That sort of diffuses things, but then he forgets the sentence.  So then any remaining anger he gets out with a vicious hug, which he then has to apologize for because frankly I'm at the point in my physical life where I can't handle being hurt with pseudohug gymnast neck squeezes anymore, lol.  Anyways, it's not a profound theological Ted Tripp experience, but it is at least suggesting that he get back to calm and NOTICE that he did something and be willing to accept a correction when given the correct response, even if he doesn't feel it or understand it.  And getting to that point has helped us.  It gives me a tool to help him reconnect to me, something he's used to doing now, something I can call on ANYWHERE, at any time, but still have it be pretty discrete.

 

I don't think it's very fair to put into a cs a dc who has serious social deficits they aren't prepared to handle.  It's fair neither to them nor him.  He's not likely to be able to comply and they aren't likely to be able to provide the support he needs socially, not if his understanding is that poor.  It takes very special people to handle kids with serious social deficits.  You don't just put them in with anyone.  One wrong teacher can do serious harm in an instant, harm you'll spend a lot of time undoing.  I may be reading it wrong.  I'm just saying you better be very cautious there.  I know you need a break and options, but you want to make sure the person handling your child is qualified and has the tools.  If their only tools for discipline are calling people bad and telling them to change, that's not going to be adequate.  This is not an entirely volitional process and he can't reform and become a certain way merely because someone tells him too.  It sounds like he needs a lot of support to get to where he needs to go.  

 

You know, just as a thought and a way of connecting with resources, if you were to call all the places in your area that do social skills (using that scholarship provider list, which you can narrow by county and by service you're looking for), then you could ask them if they have suggestions on school placement for kids with NVLD and social delays.  Seriously, it's just more free information and networking, kwim?  Might be really interesting.

[Lecka]

I agree, but I also wonder if you could look for more social opportunities for him?  

 

I would also feel better to be able to say "you can't play with them, but remember we have something for you coming up."  It would just make me feel less mean in enforcing the rule and making it clear it is not acceptable.

 

I think for the neighbors -- I would say "please know you can let me know about any problems with my kids and that I will address it."  

 

I can easily imagine the dad being mad at first, and then thinking it was not a big deal.  

 

But I also think ----- is it that he literally thinks it is not fair, and he is being excluded, and it is not just that it is not fair to him and hurting his feelings, but he really thinks it is "against the rules" that he has been told before about getting along with people?  

 

If that is the case -- I think you can look into some Asperger's resources, b/c that is something that is addressed in Asperger's materials, I think.  

 

http://www.socialthinking.com/Products?id={818C7BEF-DE68-4E90-8BB8-664538DCCD73}#f:dlb=[nonverbal%20learning%20disability] This is the link on socialthinking.com if you click on NVLD from their home page.  

 

B/c I can see his point, that he has been taught it is not okay to exclude kids, and now here he is being excluded.  It is just that it does not work the way he thinks it works, there are more little details involved, and he is focusing on "it is not nice to exclude."  

 

To be honest, I also have special things for my kids when they are not included in something cool and another sibling is.  I don't think I go overboard with it, but it can be sad and I think it is okay to be sad.  I can't make it equal, and I don't want my kids to feel entitled to having everything that the other kids have.  But, I do a bit in this direction.  But I am not really doing it for my oldest anymore, b/c it is no big deal to him anymore.

 

But either your son has not had these chances before, or he is less mature on it, and then maybe it is something where he is still like a younger child.  

 

But I also do the same thing as at birthday parties -- remind them they are going to have their turn to have their own birthday party.  But then that is hard to do if he never has a chance to have his own play dates.  And if a play date is not possible, just something, anything, that is special for him might work.  Anything, anything at all, so that you can remind him he has something special, too.  Not that I would pick something and keep my other kids from doing it just for the sake of giving him something only he does ---- but it is really possible there is something like this available or even that you are already doing. 

 

I also wonder, possibly, if you might ask the friends' dad to talk to him?  If it might be helpful to your son to hear it from someone else?  It is just a thought.  

 

There are a lot of rules about boundaries and if he is not picking up on this, I am just going to say ----- be really careful about him using the phone, he may also not understand that he can't call people too often.  

[Lecka]

I also don't know how much this is an issue -- but how mad would your daughters be if your son ruins their friendship with their friends?  If it even seemed to go in that direction.

 

I feel like -- for us to have family harmony, I cannot always do things to make things just right for my son with autism.  It makes me sad, but there are times I am pretty sure that my kids are really good with him partly b/c I do not put him ahead of them all the time (I do put him ahead of them a lot, but not all the time).  

 

I would let my other kids have their own thing.  

 

I would mention that it would be nice to invite him, but it sounds like they include him -- just not every time.  

 

I have to be fair to my kids sometimes, or they will resent their brother, and not have as much goodwill with him.

 

I am afraid I have seen this start, as nice as my kids are.  They will let me know in ways that they are resenting things, and it is better for all of us when I take that seriously.  Even though I may not do what they want, exactly, but if I am going too far in one direction, then I need to work on that.  But yeah -- sometimes they will not think it is fair, either.  But they have been right when they have said it, almost all the time.  A couple of times my daughter has just been been saying it to try to get her way, but with my other son he does not say it lightly.  

 

So that is something I would keep in mind, too.  

[Storygirl]

A note? Yeah, that would be no big deal. Normal kid stuff. I would mention it in passing to the parents to make sure it wasn't wildly inappropriate with swearing or name calling, but that is how I am. If the parents were upset, I'd ask ds to apologize in person. But learning how to deal with being left out and what do about it is completely normal socially for this age. Believe me, all middle school teachers are working on these kinds of social issues. To me, this isn't an issue specific to SN at all.

 

Yes, normally I wouldn't worry. Except that DS is extending some of the behaviors that he does at home (and gets corrected for) and now doing them with people outside the family. Writing a mean or antagonizing note to a sibling has happened, for example, and it has been taught to be inappropriate. But then he does it again. With people outside the family. The other incident I kind of referred to in my other post also involved him deliberately doing something in front of the neighbors that he had been taught was inappropriate at home (something like swearing, though that was not it).

 

I really think that everyone is at their worst when they are among family, because family is forgiving. You might pull your sister's hair, but you are less likely to pull your friend's hair, KWIM? The fact that DS is testing some behaviors outside the family is a new thing for us. I'm concerned that he is not understanding these kind of social boundaries. There have been a couple of incidents in gymnastics as well, though the coach did not bring it up to me until I asked.

 

As kids head into the middle and high school years, the social behavior with friends can definitely be unpretty, to say the least, even among NT kids. Some of the people in my group of friends were fairly mean to me, and it was hard to handle. I'm afraid that DS's difficulty with social cues is increasing as his social circle is increasing. He's been having trouble knowing whether his gymnastics teammates are teasing him good-naturedly or being mean to him, for example, and he responds to them with anger. Which then confuses the other kids, because his reaction seemed out of line.

 

I think this note incident is just another thing in a list of concerning things lately. It's hard to tell what is his personality and what is the disability. What is due to him not understanding, and what is due to him wanting to provoke? He definitely provokes his siblings on purpose sometimes. He likes to stir up trouble, because I think it is exciting and interesting for him (he is sensory seeking, so quiet and calm isn't really his preferred style).

 

I think learning how to react when excluded is common to everyone. What is concerning is that he is not learning better responses when we are teaching him. We try to teach him better ways to respond, but he continues in his old ways.

 

I think at some point, you have to gently introduce the concept of real world consequences to your child.  I know this is difficult for Sn kids who have trouble understanding social issues.  Mine is older and we are just now getting into some of those explanations.  But he needs to know that fair or not, things that you might get over or forgive outsiders might not.  If he pushes the boundries with other people, then there may be real consequences.  (BTW, if you are going with not telling the parents you know per the request of the children, then you can't do an apology note.) 

 

I would probably sit down with my DS and say "Look, if you do that again, they aren't going to let you play any more. These are the rules. The girls don't have to play with you and if you continue to complain, note or not, I'm not going to let you go over."  Then, I would give him one more chance and if he got angry in an inappropriate way again I wouldn't let him visit with the family for probably 2 weeks.  I would be OK with him coming home and then expressing his frustration, because it is better to let feelings out than to bottle them up.   But I would not allow him to express that anger to the other children involved.  Again, my child is slightly older so that may make a different in how firm you are with the punishment.  But in my experience it sometimes takes firm enforcement of the rules to achieve real behavior changes.  I hate doing it, but it is necessary to help my child develop.  KWIM? 

You have some good ideas here. It's a little hard to implement, because our houses are side by side, and the children are back and forth all day long, inside and outside each of the houses. I'd have to tell the neighbors that they couldn't come over to our house.

 

I'm pretty sure that he complains to the other kids. I'm not sure how to stop that, since I don't always hear their conversations, but it's a good point to teach him that he can come talk to me but he can't complain to them. Not sure how I'd enforce it, though, unless I keep them in my hearing at all times.

 

He also has some obsessive traits. So I'm wondering if by keeping him away from them for a period of time, he will obsess over it. By that I mean talk about being excluded over and over and over again. And over. He doesn't let things go.

 

He does understand consequences, and he has been told that he must stay home when playing together hasn't been going well. So maybe.

 

:iagree:

 

I think this is very good advice.  I think that he needs to know that the girls are not doing anything wrong by excluding him sometimes.  Sometimes girls want to play with just girls.  

 

I remember that my brother was the only boy in our house growing up.  My sister and I enjoyed watching cartoons with him, but playing Barbies was awkward.  We had a few too many scenarios of Barbie marrying He-Man.   :laugh:

 

Ds14 is the only boy here.  Yes, sometimes he feels left out.  Unfortunately, it's part of life.   :(

 

DD10 is part of the girl pack (their girls are 10 and 11), so I've been working with her as well about being sensitive and including the boys. But I've also made it clear to all of my children they it's okay for the kids to divide into smaller groups sometimes, and that sometimes the girls will just want to be with girls.

 

Their family definitely does not believe that siblings must be included in everything. In fact, their own 10 year old was not invited to her 11 year old sister's birthday party. She had to stay in her room while the party was in the basement. We entertained her for a large part of that day, because we felt sorry for her being left out.

 

And here is another related thing. The 10 year old neighbor is having her own birthday party next week and has invited both of my daughters. DS11 is outraged that he was not invited and keeps bringing it up as not fair. We have conversations about it daily, and the next day he will raise the exact same arguments. He doesn't accept explanations and learn from them.

[Storygirl]

I want to respond to more comments, but I have to go out the door. More later.

[MomatHWTK]

Are you working with a therapist?  The short answer to how to get it done is, honestly- find a way.  "I'm sorry DS is grounded this week, come back next week."  It happens, most kids understand because they've either had a friend grounded or been grounded themselves.  And I get the obsessing, but you can't give up enforcing rules just because of your child's reaction.  You can try to work within his mindset, but at some point you have to be able to enforce a rule.   I try to remember that if I don't enforce consequences out of fear of my child's reaction, I am unintentionally encouraging him to continue the negative behavior.  (Mom says X, I react with Y, mom gives up on X= always react with Y to get what I want.)  It is a difficult balancing act which is why I would encourage working with a professional guide.

 

If you don't work on behavior modification, the behavior will stay and the real world consequences are worse for an older child or adult.  But the modification usually involves are step by step changes that a good therapist should help you work through. 

 

 

[Kanin]

This brings up a lot of memories for me about negotiating playtime when I was a kid. I was friends with two brothers - one my age and the other a few years younger. The little one got included when we felt like it, and then left out when we got tired of him. I sure feel bad about it now, but at the time... 

 

I know a particular boy now who is a teenager. He absolutely doesn't understand when people are joking with him, or when he's pushing too hard with his peers. He also has a very absolute sense of what is fair and what is not fair. It makes life very difficult for him, but it's nearly impossible to get him to see reason.

 

All this to say I can understand what you're going through! If it was me, I'd probably just call the mom of the family and explain to her the situation. She will probably be very understanding, it sounds like they're a great family.  As for helping your son adapt, I don't know... but if you are working on it now he'll definitely benefit from it in the months and years to come :)

[kbutton]

DD10 is part of the girl pack (their girls are 10 and 11), so I've been working with her as well about being sensitive and including the boys. But I've also made it clear to all of my children they it's okay for the kids to divide into smaller groups sometimes, and that sometimes the girls will just want to be with girls.

 

Their family definitely does not believe that siblings must be included in everything. In fact, their own 10 year old was not invited to her 11 year old sister's birthday party. She had to stay in her room while the party was in the basement. We entertained her for a large part of that day, because we felt sorry for her being left out.

 

And here is another related thing. The 10 year old neighbor is having her own birthday party next week and has invited both of my daughters. DS11 is outraged that he was not invited and keeps bringing it up as not fair. We have conversations about it daily, and the next day he will raise the exact same arguments. He doesn't accept explanations and learn from them.

 

If this is what their family is like, I would be more definitve at each encounter regarding who is invited and who is not. If this is their family culture, and you want to remain good friends because they are so close physically to you, I think you need to work with them on this, even if you have a different way of working it out with other friendships you make. When possible, you might explain to them that DS is struggling in this area, and anytime that you can find out the arrangements ahead of time, it helps you out in regard to managing expectations. Personality does play into this a lot. There are many fine people out there with nice manners that don't want to spend time with me, and I don't want to spend time with them. :-) We just don't hit it off. Kids can be the same way, but they have less control. If the family divvies up their kids and friendships more than they do group stuff, they may have some very specific and good reasons for this that they may not want to state. I am excited when my kids hit it off with an entire family, but that is not always the case. There is one family we know whose kids won't be asked to my house all together unless they are part of a larger group. The three siblings don't function well together at all. If they come to play, we'll be asking for just one of them to come because the younger ones won't be able to conduct themselves well enough. In a group, it's different. With just them, it's unworkable.

 

I am surprised about not having siblings at a birthday party, but with the close ages in the family, that might be only way to ensure that each girl actually gets to have a special friendship. It's harder in smaller families--I think families with lots of kids are very used to some kids being allowed to do something while others are left out. 

 

I will try to get back later with comments about the rest of it--I think those are all things that are important, but I would give you different possible approaches for non-neighbors.

[Storygirl]

After a brief stop at home, I'm out the door again for a meeting, but I wanted to respond quickly to this.

Are you working with a therapist?  The short answer to how to get it done is, honestly- find a way.  "I'm sorry DS is grounded this week, come back next week."  It happens, most kids understand because they've either had a friend grounded or been grounded themselves.  And I get the obsessing, but you can't give up enforcing rules just because of your child's reaction.  You can try to work within his mindset, but at some point you have to be able to enforce a rule.   I try to remember that if I don't enforce consequences out of fear of my child's reaction, I am unintentionally encouraging him to continue the negative behavior.  (Mom says X, I react with Y, mom gives up on X= always react with Y to get what I want.)  It is a difficult balancing act which is why I would encourage working with a professional guide.

 

If you don't work on behavior modification, the behavior will stay and the real world consequences are worse for an older child or adult.  But the modification usually involves are step by step changes that a good therapist should help you work through. 

 

We aren't working with a therapist at this time, although we were having counseling with a psychologist a year or so ago. Now that we moved, we are on a waiting list to get an appointment here. Our pediatrician said it may take two to three months to get in and did give me a list of alternate people to contact if we need to see someone sooner. I just got this list, so I haven't looked into it yet.

 

If you or anyone has an idea what we should look for in a therapist or counselor -- if we should be looking for a certain program, for example -- I'd be open to suggestions.

 

About rule following. We are actually stricter than most about rules, so establishing rules and expecting compliance is the norm. I suspect that I am too much about rules, actually, which brings about its own set of issues. My other post probably sounded like I was wishy washy about enforcing behavior, but I didn't mean to suggest that I don't know how to impose consequences. I was just thinking out loud about what might work or not work logistically, because there are a lot of factors for me to consider, including my other children. Refusing to let the neighbors in affects them. Making my son stay inside the house for two weeks would be counterproductive for meeting his need for lots of physical exercise (he has ADHD). So it's complex.

 

His obsessing is related to clinical anxiety and his NVLD, so it's not just a matter of refusing to give in to it (we don't give in). It's not a normal behavior with the intent of getting us to change our minds. I sometimes think he will one day pass the borderline into OCD. It's probably not what you are picturing when I say obsessing.

 

ETA: I think as parents we can always build up our parenting skills, and I know that there is a lot that I can learn from professionals and other parents who have BTDT. But this situation isn't about lax parenting.

[kbutton]

On a practical level, do you have a way to segregate your son when the other kids are playing or a place to send them where they can be physically separate? I'm trying to think of ways to make it practical for you when they are not all playing together and to be sure that if he's complaining about the girls playing together, that they don't have to listen to it the whole time.

 

I'm also wondering if when they play all together, if you can find activities they can do within earshot or something structured that would keep unwanted comments to a minimum as you are training/re-training on this.

 

I am hoping you have some flexible options while you work on this--I feel like we've had situations where we've had to sit tight and train, but we have also had situations where the skill level with friendship is a really big gap that makes things hard, and the gap is with the other child, not my son. It's never easy, is it?

[Storygirl]

Never let it be said I know how to handle neighbors.   ;)   It wouldn't occur to me to talk with them or care about their opinion, however if they came to me I would use the label, basically just saying he has a diagnosis that's like autism, that you're on it, apologize, and you're working on it.  It might kick in some sensitivity on their part.  Those girls COULD decide to have a harem or some other more inclusive play.  It's not like they HAVE to exclude him.  (You know I'm joking about the harem part.  I'm just saying they could TRY.)

 

Seems to me it's time to get him into a social group that WILL get him friends, either because of common interests or common disabilities or something.  You can't just remove and not replace; that's not fair.  It doesn't sound like the neighborhood is providing him social experiences, so he's going to need to get that other ways.  You can't assume he'll get it in school, because he'll be unusual even within the schools.  So his friends are going to have to come through a social group or some other way where he has something in common with the people.

 

If you get that IEP and apply for the scholarship in November, you want social skills in the IEP so you can get therapy.  In fact, that might be a way to look for your provider for applying.  Go through the provider list and see who you want to use for social skills and that's who you'll apply through.  To get social skills into the IEP, you need either pragmatics or an autism label.  To get pragmatics, that's with pragmatics testing by an SLP and the school does it.  I would do that BEFORE you do any interventions.  Don't shoot yourself in the foot here, kwim?  Get the pragmatics testing done by the school, then begin any interventions.  There are effective interventions available, but you want the funding meaning you need that testing done.

 

Now as far as behavior, you might look at this book.  I have a LOT of criticism for it, because it has some serious flaws.  However it might give you a little boldness on the question of whether you're allowed to require compliance if that makes sense.  I'm finding this issue of christian discipline within serious social delays is challenging, because the main tool we've been given all these years by the church is spanking, something that relies on inferences and obviously backfires on a lot of levels with our kids, wow.  Now I'm going to link the book. Too Wise to be Mistaken, Too Good to be Unkind: Christian Parents Contend with Autism You'll see it's endorsed by Tedd Tripp, an avowed spanker, and frankly I think the book has so many flaws he shouldn't have endorsed it.  However the one thing it does well, in a sea of flaws (and I mean really HIDEOUS flaws, like suggesting it's ok to hit your child on the face), is suggest that it's *ok* to require compliance.  My ds doesn't understand all things, but after reading the book I decided to see if I could get *some* measure of calm compliance, even if it's without understanding.  So I ask for: 1) eye contact, 2) a calm repetition of my statement (something simple like: I'm sorry I hit you), and 3) a hug.  And if he hurts me with the hug, we back up and start over for that (eye contact, I'm sorry I hurt you, hug).  And if he shouts and can't modulate and stay calm, we repeat.  And that can go on a while, because he has a really hard time modulating.  I keep the language simple, because that's where he's at.  No inferences, nothing ethereal like forgive vs. sorry, nothing long.  

 

What I'm finding is if I can get eye contact, he sort of calms down and starts laughing.  That sort of diffuses things, but then he forgets the sentence.  So then any remaining anger he gets out with a vicious hug, which he then has to apologize for because frankly I'm at the point in my physical life where I can't handle being hurt with pseudohug gymnast neck squeezes anymore, lol.  Anyways, it's not a profound theological Ted Tripp experience, but it is at least suggesting that he get back to calm and NOTICE that he did something and be willing to accept a correction when given the correct response, even if he doesn't feel it or understand it.  And getting to that point has helped us.  It gives me a tool to help him reconnect to me, something he's used to doing now, something I can call on ANYWHERE, at any time, but still have it be pretty discrete.

 

I don't think it's very fair to put into a cs a dc who has serious social deficits they aren't prepared to handle.  It's fair neither to them nor him.  He's not likely to be able to comply and they aren't likely to be able to provide the support he needs socially, not if his understanding is that poor.  It takes very special people to handle kids with serious social deficits.  You don't just put them in with anyone.  One wrong teacher can do serious harm in an instant, harm you'll spend a lot of time undoing.  I may be reading it wrong.  I'm just saying you better be very cautious there.  I know you need a break and options, but you want to make sure the person handling your child is qualified and has the tools.  If their only tools for discipline are calling people bad and telling them to change, that's not going to be adequate.  This is not an entirely volitional process and he can't reform and become a certain way merely because someone tells him too.  It sounds like he needs a lot of support to get to where he needs to go.  

 

You know, just as a thought and a way of connecting with resources, if you were to call all the places in your area that do social skills (using that scholarship provider list, which you can narrow by county and by service you're looking for), then you could ask them if they have suggestions on school placement for kids with NVLD and social delays.  Seriously, it's just more free information and networking, kwim?  Might be really interesting.

 

Thanks for the tips and the book suggestion! I'm kind of struggling with how much I let him own his own behavior, or whether I step in proactively. I want to preserve this family friendship for the benefit of my children; it's the first time we have befriended a family that all of our kids can play with. I worry if I don't say something to them that they will just let these little problems pass by without comment but really be bothered by them. And after awhile things build up and they decide my son is an inappropriate influence. There kids have some SN, too, and I did tell my friend one day that DS has some difficulty with social issues, so I might think they would understand. But I'm not sure. So I think that addressing the situation somehow will show them that we know he crossed a line and that we want to make it right. I'm seriously thinking that I should have DS write an apology. A good note to offset the bad.

 

I have to look into the options for social skills training or groups. I need a better understanding of what a social skills group looks like, because I have questions. How does he learn better behavior from other children who are having trouble with social issues, for example? Sure, an adult would be directing it, but what would they do that is different than what I do as a parent helping my kids learn social behavior? How is it better for him to have friends who also have social issues versus NT friends who can model more typical behavior? I'm not being snarky; I really wonder. He might benefit more from some kind of one-on-one therapy going through a social skills curriculum. Then again, if he doesn't improve his behavior when instructed specifically at home, what about therapy would produce a different result? I need to look into what would actually be involved.

 

It's hard to say how he will do in school socially until we try. He really has two personalities. One is quiet, introverted, shy, and polite. The other is loud, boisterous, provocative, prone to anger, etc. The neighbor sees boy number two. Doctors, therapists, Sunday school teachers, etc. see boy number one. He had the same set of Sunday school teachers for five or six years, because they decided to move up a level every year to stay with the same group of kids. So his teachers knew him for a long time. They thought he was quiet. They commented when he began participating in class discussions a year or so ago; they commented when he finally made a friend after five years; when asked, they said that he caused no disturbances or troubles in class and seemed to pay attention (even before meds).

 

He also seemed to get along fine at his previous gym, where he was for four years. His coach said that DS did not seem particularly more hyper or inattentive than the other boys. That gym had a lot of boys, and to keep things in control, they were super structured and always had several coaches working with the boys at any one time. Our new gym is smaller and only has one boys' coach, so the boys are less closely supervised. DS has been having a little trouble with this, chatting too much during practice and annoying the other boys when they are trying to work.

 

So I think that he will function well socially in school as long as he is in a highly structured and controlled environment that emphasizes good character. I think he will fall in line. I might be wrong. And I can see him letting loose too much at recess. And I can see him telling his friends at Christian school the inappropriate things that his gymnastics friends introduce him to (nothing major yet, but we've been working through a few things), because he wouldn't understand that what is acceptable in one environment is disapproved of in another.

 

I might be wrong, but I'm not sure that he will really stand out as a square peg in a round hole at school. One of the things that is confusing to others about DS is that he really can seem to be NT. Until he does something that is not. Of course, as he gets older, I think his social differences will become more apparent, as other children mature. All small kids do weird social things until they learn differently, but among older peers his differences will stand out more clearly.Y

 

You are right that we need to know how a school will deal with discipline issues. It's something we need to ask about outright.

 

[Storygirl]

On a practical level, do you have a way to segregate your son when the other kids are playing or a place to send them where they can be physically separate? I'm trying to think of ways to make it practical for you when they are not all playing together and to be sure that if he's complaining about the girls playing together, that they don't have to listen to it the whole time.

 

I'm also wondering if when they play all together, if you can find activities they can do within earshot or something structured that would keep unwanted comments to a minimum as you are training/re-training on this.

 

I am hoping you have some flexible options while you work on this--I feel like we've had situations where we've had to sit tight and train, but we have also had situations where the skill level with friendship is a really big gap that makes things hard, and the gap is with the other child, not my son. It's never easy, is it?

 

I need to figure out some physical boundaries for the kids, anyway, so I'll think about this. They've been playing in their rooms sometimes, in the basement sometimes, outside much of the time. They are an active bunch, so no matter where they are, they don't stay there long. I'm not used to having non-family members in my house so much, so I've been on a learning curve myself about the best places to have them play. There are definitely multiple spaces to be away from each other, but it's hard to get them to stay in one place, either as one big group or in smaller groups. Herding cats is not a bad metaphor. I probably do need to come up with more structured activities for them while they are here and facilitate more.

 

And part of the issue is definitely how to integrate the friends into what we want to do as a family. For example, if I prepare a craft or a game or activity, I can require my kids to participate, but getting their friends to agree to it is another matter. If I build it, they may not come (movie reference).

 

I probably should sit down and talk with my friend about handling these issues. I have always been much more structured with my approach to my kids, but we have never had next door neighbors like this before, and their new presence in our lives has changed things. Mostly for the better, but we've had a few bumps. I tend to be pretty controlling, and I've tried to relax a bit and be comfortable with things being more spontaneous, in order to allow my kids to enjoy spending time with their friends. These are not planned play dates but just the knock-on-the-door-and-come-out-to-play-whenever-possible type of play. I'm used to planning social things out weeks in advance and putting them on my calendar, and it has definitely been the opposite of that lately. Going with the flow is hard for me, so I've deliberately been trying to be looser this summer. DS probably does need more structure even in free time activities. It's hard to figure that out when the playing field covers two houses and includes two moms.

 

[Storygirl]

Lecka, thanks for your thoughts. I want to respond but I'm tired and it will have to wait until tomorrow.

[FairProspects]

There are always bumps in neighborhood situations. I did not grow up in a neighborhood and it felt like I had to learn this entire culture as an adult because the expectations were completely foreign to me. I did find quickly though that it really helped to work together with the other parents. When we all had the same boundaries or at least were respectful of the different family rules at different houses, situations ran more smoothly for the kids. We did have to get involved sometimes but overall I think we've found our groove now (the kids are older too and some have moved).

[PeterPan]

Story, you're asking perfectly reasonable questions, things the providers can sort out for you about what they specifically offer.  There are providers for the scholarship, sometimes listed as SLP, sometimes as behavior services (look it up on the provider search thing) and they may offer private therapy using curricula like the Marcia Garcia Winner Social Thinking Materials or Zones of Regulation (both good, you want them!) and/or a social skills group.  They're complementary, not overlapping necessarily.  A social skills group may have some instructional time, but then it will go into guided interaction where they're working on a skill.  Typically this is a very small group (2-4 kids) and they're targeting specific things and getting the guidance of someone who has experience in social skills therapies.  

 

The reason you want this?

 

-NVLD inherently means he needs it explained verbally, that he's not going to learn by imitation.  He's not going to learn by imitating his peers; he's actually going to need some analysis.  There are other ways to do this.  Theatre is a really popular way, because there you're working on noticing body language and emotions.  Theatre can working.  I'm just saying these are venues where people take the time to make explicit things that other people catch naturally and imitate naturally.  If he could learn that way, he already would be.

-What you're doing isn't working.  When you've exhausted what you can make happen, it's time to ask for help.  Sometimes it's wording changes and how they explain things.  There are multiple good curricula, and there are social stories, videos (Model Me Kids, excellent, excellent!!), etc.  As our psych put it, you're taking exceptional problems and facing them with average answers, which makes US the problem.  We have to get on a stool and elevate our solutions to be as exceptional as the problems.  We need HELP!

-You need help.  You need to be connected with people who can see your ds and get to know your ds and help you sort things out. As I make friends with the professionals who work with my ds, I immensely value their input.  They've seen him and can help me sort out situations so I can understand better than what I would on my own.  You want that and need that.

-Your dc will enjoy playing with these kids.  I never realized that till I took my ds to the neuropsych and saw how alive he got playing with other kids kissing the spectrum.  It was like all of a sudden there was this mind click and they got on.  We enjoy our friends because we enjoy them, not because they're peer models.  It's good to have playdates with more neurodiversity as well, absolutely. 

 

Your analysis of your situation seems good.  Is writing a note cumbersome for him?  A simple I'm sorry I acted inappropriately would suffice.  You could have the talk flat up with your neighbor.  Really, they seem a little quirky.  Not letting a sibling go to her sister's b-day party??  They just seem a little controlling, and that kind of willingness to control could make them more picky about your ds behavior, dunno.  Maybe just kind of hold that loosely, instead of feeling like it HAS to happen, kwim?  

 

I totally hear you on the structure.  I didn't realize you had such a big change in the style of gym programs.  And yes, I could totally see him being antsy by that point, lol.  (laughing thinking about tonight and the boys in ds' class  :)  )  Anyways, one thing that can happen is that he'll hold it together all through school and use up SO much effort there that he'll be a mess at home.  That's what ds did the day he went to school.  He seemed pretty good and then went home and LOST it.  

 

I think it's a really hard line when you feel like your dc is just constantly being bad.  In a way he is bad, sure.  I mean, mercy, our theology is certainly happy enough to reinforce that (born in sin, born liars, blah blah).  But our kids are mentally young for their age.  My dd wrote letters around that age too, and might I add they were NOT flattering.  He may turn out to have a writer in him!  You've got so many things going on, with normal teen behavior AND the delayed understanding AND ...  I just still think that, in general, your child WANTS to please you and that if he can't, there's something getting in the way.  And maybe I err too far toward the something is getting in the way part, but that's still what I think.  

[Storygirl]

Thanks for that list, Elizabeth. It will help me think through what specifically we are looking for and what questions to ask when we pick therapists and counselors.

[Storygirl]

I

 

But I also think ----- is it that he literally thinks it is not fair, and he is being excluded, and it is not just that it is not fair to him and hurting his feelings, but he really thinks it is "against the rules" that he has been told before about getting along with people?  

 

If that is the case -- I think you can look into some Asperger's resources, b/c that is something that is addressed in Asperger's materials, I think.  

 

http://www.socialthinking.com/Products?id={818C7BEF-DE68-4E90-8BB8-664538DCCD73}#f:dlb=[nonverbal%20learning%20disability] This is the link on socialthinking.com if you click on NVLD from their home page.  

 

B/c I can see his point, that he has been taught it is not okay to exclude kids, and now here he is being excluded.  It is just that it does not work the way he thinks it works, there are more little details involved, and he is focusing on "it is not nice to exclude."  

 

To be honest, I also have special things for my kids when they are not included in something cool and another sibling is.  I don't think I go overboard with it, but it can be sad and I think it is okay to be sad.  I can't make it equal, and I don't want my kids to feel entitled to having everything that the other kids have.  But, I do a bit in this direction.  But I am not really doing it for my oldest anymore, b/c it is no big deal to him anymore.

 

But either your son has not had these chances before, or he is less mature on it, and then maybe it is something where he is still like a younger child.  

 

But I also do the same thing as at birthday parties -- remind them they are going to have their turn to have their own birthday party.  But then that is hard to do if he never has a chance to have his own play dates.  And if a play date is not possible, just something, anything, that is special for him might work.  Anything, anything at all, so that you can remind him he has something special, too.  Not that I would pick something and keep my other kids from doing it just for the sake of giving him something only he does ---- but it is really possible there is something like this available or even that you are already doing. 

 

I also wonder, possibly, if you might ask the friends' dad to talk to him?  If it might be helpful to your son to hear it from someone else?  It is just a thought.  

 

There are a lot of rules about boundaries and if he is not picking up on this, I am just going to say ----- be really careful about him using the phone, he may also not understand that he can't call people too often.  

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with what is in bold. We've had plenty of sibling spats involving someone being left out of what the others are doing. With my own kids I tried to teach them a balance: that it is okay to want to do something by yourself without having to include your sibling every time, but also that it is not okay to exclude without reason. We have a tricky sibling dynamic, in that my three youngest are extremely and unusually close in age without being twins or triplets (adoptive family), so I think we've had to work out things about excluding and including more than the average family. There is a history of DS being upset when his sisters want to do girly things alone or when his brother wants to play by himself.

 

And to be completely honest, DS's younger brother learned early on that being excluded bothered DS tremendously, and younger brother sometimes excluded DS purposefully in order to provoke him. I can see that some of this family dynamic and our teaching about how they should treat each other as siblings is carrying over into how DS is relating to the neighbor friends. DS talks a lot about whether things are fair or not. He hates it when things seem unfair to him, and he won't accept a differing point of view when we try to talk about it. We can talk things over, and he will still say, "but it's not fair."

 

Good advice about the phone! He has a friend that he wants to call sometimes, and he doesn't like it when I explain that it's probably not a good time right now. He hasn't talked much on the phone, because I tend to avoid using the phone myself, but I can see that I need to keep teaching him some phone etiquette.

[Storygirl]

I also don't know how much this is an issue -- but how mad would your daughters be if your son ruins their friendship with their friends?  If it even seemed to go in that direction.

 

I feel like -- for us to have family harmony, I cannot always do things to make things just right for my son with autism.  It makes me sad, but there are times I am pretty sure that my kids are really good with him partly b/c I do not put him ahead of them all the time (I do put him ahead of them a lot, but not all the time).  

 

I would let my other kids have their own thing.  

 

I would mention that it would be nice to invite him, but it sounds like they include him -- just not every time.  

 

I have to be fair to my kids sometimes, or they will resent their brother, and not have as much goodwill with him.

 

I am afraid I have seen this start, as nice as my kids are.  They will let me know in ways that they are resenting things, and it is better for all of us when I take that seriously.  Even though I may not do what they want, exactly, but if I am going too far in one direction, then I need to work on that.  But yeah -- sometimes they will not think it is fair, either.  But they have been right when they have said it, almost all the time.  A couple of times my daughter has just been been saying it to try to get her way, but with my other son he does not say it lightly.  

 

So that is something I would keep in mind, too.  

 

Yes, balancing the needs of my son and my other kids can be hard. I don't want DS to negatively affect the relationships that my other kids are forming, because those friendships are important to them.

 

I've been doing some schoolwork with the other children while DS is at gymnastics three mornings a week and then letting them play with their friends in the afternoons. Maybe I should switch things up and let my other kids play with the neighbors while DS is at gym, so that they can have some time to work on their friendships without him. He gets to hang out with guys at gym, so he's getting some social interaction during that time.

 

 

[Storygirl]

DS told me what he wrote in the note and why he did it. It turns out he was acting out something he had seen in a movie, where the teen villain wrote some threatening notes. This movie is pretty tame, no bad language, no violence, etc. I wouldn't have expected it to influence DS's behavior, but it did. He's always been susceptible to adopting the language and behavior he sees on the screen, so we try to be very careful about what the kids see. DS is attracted to villains and the idea of being bad. Always has been. It's always bothered me.

 

Anyway, I think the boundaries he didn't understand were

1)  That something in a movie is not meant to be tried out in real life

2) That the neighbors would take it so negatively. He doesn't always understand how his actions are perceived by others.

3) If he is pretending to be mean, others will think he is actually being mean.

 

I know number 3 is an issue right now, because DS has been dealing with some teasing at the gym, and he's been struggling to understand that teasing that seems mean might just be the way that these boys relate but is not really mean. [For example, they often say, "How do you spell fake?" DS says, "F-A-K-E," and they say, "no, it's spelled (insert DS's name)." They do this to each other, not just DS]. Figuring out what is mean and what is teasing is a minefield we are suddenly finding ourselves in, but that is probably a topic of its own.

 

Also, the negative feelings he expressed in the note were real, so it wasn't all pretend. The note said, "You need to include the boys. Or else. Signed a friend." He left it on the doorstep, rang the doorbell, and ran away, with his hoodie pulled up as a disguise (this is how the movie villain dressed). The neighbor dad answered the door, saw him running away, and asked who the note was for, so they knew it was from him.

 

The neighbor parents haven't brought it up, even though our kids have been playing together since then, so I think they decided to let it pass by. But I've decided to have DS write an apology note, since he told me himself what happened.

 

Even though this is just a seemingly minor thing, it brings up a lot of extra STUFF. It's not that he did it that is the problem. It's the why. And it ties in to his special needs and our developing friendships, and how we present his issues to those outside the family, and even to religion. Which related to what you said about being bad, Elizabeth. I don't talk about religion much on the board, because I've seen all the drag out battles on the chat board, and I don't want to enter into that. But our beliefs as Christians do play a big part, and our neighbor's beliefs come into play as well. Because we believe in sin, and we believe that there is a Godly standard that our family should strive to live by, and we teach our children what God desires from them, and we want our children to share our faith, and we are careful about having negative outside influences in our children's lives (although we are not on the extreme end of sheltering them -- they need to be able to live in the world). And I have told my children in the past that a certain friend was not a good influence and that we would not continue to cultivate that friendship. So all that is a part of this. I fear that my child might be the bad influence that other families don't want near their children.

 

I said some other things there and then erased it, because I don't want to start a new conversation, which I think that would have. But parenting as Christian plays into things. Always. And so I can see why the other parents would have some concerns about my son. I think I need to figure out a way to talk to them about the overall social situation, not just the note incident.

[PeterPan]

The note he wrote seems so mild to me, I'd just let it go.  What's going on at the gym, on the other hand, sounds intentionally hurtful and like it crosses over the line.  Maybe have a talk with the coach about it?  Maybe it's more than just differences but lack of accepting a new person, etc.

 

Ok, this is just me, but when I have made decisions about cutting off a friendship, I did it because the person was making choices of a direction that were going down the wrong way.  We're not talking minor family differences or you did something bad and I think you're bad kind of things. Hopefully they see it similarly, understand he has some SN, and aren't fazed.  :)

 

I'll just ask, just if you have time and want to, do you find your ds has a concept of sin?  At what age did that develop?  With ds I feel like he perceives things in the most simplistic, big picture, and literal ways.  He loves God, loves to pray, loves his Bible, but it's all at a very simple level (who is bigger, who is stronger, who is the most powerful).  Concepts like sin, right/wrong, etc. are just zip/zoom over him.  I don't know when that may change.  I know I've met some teens with delays who also are similar, where they're very sincere, just very b&w in their beliefs, and the sort of hyper-emotional (repent, feel it) kind of terminology and approach doesn't connect with them. 

[kbutton]

 

Also, the negative feelings he expressed in the note were real, so it wasn't all pretend. The note said, "You need to include the boys. Or else. Signed a friend." He left it on the doorstep, rang the doorbell, and ran away, with his hoodie pulled up as a disguise (this is how the movie villain dressed). The neighbor dad answered the door, saw him running away, and asked who the note was for, so they knew it was from him.

 

The neighbor parents haven't brought it up, even though our kids have been playing together since then, so I think they decided to let it pass by. But I've decided to have DS write an apology note, since he told me himself what happened.

 

 

While I don't think the note was over the top, I would have responded to it differently (as a recipient) as a threat (which it is) vs. expressing his displeasure and/or being mean about it. The delivery method is also kind of threatening. I would be sure he know that threatening behavior isn't even in the same league as expressing displeasure or even throwing a fit/having a meltdown. Maybe I am the only  one that would see a distinction here, but I suspect the threat aspect is probably the part most likely to get a weird response from people who know about the SN aspect.

 

On social skills groups, etc. First, it probably depends on what kind of therapist the person is running it. While i think the local PS speech person would do a good job, I am not sure her approach would fit my son. She was awesomely helpful with evals, but my needs more on the behavioral front. We have a behavioralist tutoring him on social skills via our state scholarship. She works with him 1:1, with his brother, and when we're lucky during the summer, the neighbor boy joins in. They play games and do routine things (as well as using books) to try to bring up situations more broadly than what we can often do at home when something happens "in the moment." To some extent, she's trying to find out what pushes his buttons without pushing his buttons since things he knows to do and often does successfully will sometimes go wonky with stress. For instance, they baked on session. My son had the recipe, ingredients, and measuring stuff all out and lined up. He was prepared. He was working with his brother and a very good friend. In spite of all that, he still got a bit worked up about some things. Being in a group setting can help bring this stuff out, and it doesn't even have to be a big one. But, the idea is that it's brought up and worked out with a bit of artificial incentive so that it can also be worked on intentionally, not just on the fly. Nothing is wrong with on the fly, but maybe some issues happen on the fly infrequently, so you don't have a lot of practice. Maybe it's too "real" and the lesson doesn't stick, etc. 

 

I wish I could explain it better, but it really does help. We don't see my parents all the time, and my mother noticed a difference right away in my son since he's starting social skills work.

[Storygirl]

kbutton, that approach sounds great. My SIL has a friend who is some kind of psychologist or therapist who usually joins our extended family for Easter dinner. So he sees DS about once a year. A few years back, when DS was six or seven, he made a comment that I learned about later (we had already left the gathering). He just said that he thought DS was "really interesting" to observe. So that suggests to me that seeing DS in a real-life environment would reveal a lot more to a therapist than seeing him in an office. Especially since he tends to clam up and sit quietly during office visits. If we found something like that around here, I think it could be helpful.

[Storygirl]

 

I'll just ask, just if you have time and want to, do you find your ds has a concept of sin?  At what age did that develop?  With ds I feel like he perceives things in the most simplistic, big picture, and literal ways.  He loves God, loves to pray, loves his Bible, but it's all at a very simple level (who is bigger, who is stronger, who is the most powerful).  Concepts like sin, right/wrong, etc. are just zip/zoom over him.  I don't know when that may change.  I know I've met some teens with delays who also are similar, where they're very sincere, just very b&w in their beliefs, and the sort of hyper-emotional (repent, feel it) kind of terminology and approach doesn't connect with them. 

 

Yes, he understands sin. DH just asked him about sin, and he said, "What Jesus died for," and then with prompting elaborated that it is when you do something wrong. I'm not sure when that developed, but we do talk about misbehavior as sin, so he's had a lot of time to learn it. I do think that when he was younger he was hard to teach, because he didn't really understand that some things were wrong. Or maybe he understood but didn't care?? Not sure about that. He never has seemed motivated by an internal desire to please us, but he seems to be becoming a little more sensitive to that. Yesterday he asked me more than once whether I was mad about the note. I wasn't acting mad but was just talking about it with him. He wanted to know my feelings, which is kind of unusual for him. Or maybe he was just wondering if he was going to be in trouble.

 

I just asked DH if he thinks DS feels badly when he does wrong things. He said "sometimes, but not always. I think maybe he doesn't always feel badly about things, because he doesn't really understand that they are wrong." DS will sometimes apologize without being prompted, but not usually. And he doesn't usually act remorseful. So he will accept consequences; he will apologize when prompted;he will listen with a serious face when we explain why something was wrong or a sin, but he doesn't act upset.. I remember being concerned about this disconnect when he was younger. Now he does like to talk about why our family thinks thing are wrong when other families don't, so he does think through right and wrong. I think this is must be related to theory of mind -- DS isn't really able to perceive what others think about things. So it would make sense that he isn't able to perceive God's point of view, either. So sin is a harder concept, because it requires seeing things from a perspective other than his own.

[Storygirl]

While I don't think the note was over the top, I would have responded to it differently (as a recipient) as a threat (which it is) vs. expressing his displeasure and/or being mean about it. The delivery method is also kind of threatening. I would be sure he know that threatening behavior isn't even in the same league as expressing displeasure or even throwing a fit/having a meltdown. Maybe I am the only  one that would see a distinction here, but I suspect the threat aspect is probably the part most likely to get a weird response from people who know about the SN aspect.

 

 

Yes, that is what I think, too. It's the "or else" part that would bother me if I were the other family.

[PeterPan]

Story, that analysis was fascinating, thanks!  That kind of discussion was UTTERLY MISSING from that other, Ted Tripp endorsed book on ASD, and I really don't understand how someone could purport to be writing a book discussing a christian approach to ASD and not get into these issues.  There was no discussion of what Bible versions might be most comprehensible to our kids, how to teach concepts of sin and right/wrong without feeding the extremely b&w rule-following tendencies or even anxiety.  

 

So yes, that actually makes sense, what you're saying, that it takes ToM to get to something being good/bad because of how it's perceived by someone else.  Interesting.  

 

And fwiw, theory of mind is another thing the behavioralist can work on.  It's all in that social skills thing. There's actual curriculum for it.

 

Kbutton, I'm so glad to hear your progress!  The grandma test is the acid test.  :)

[Storygirl]

Update: I had DS write a note saying, "I'm sorry about the note I sent the other day. I'm glad we are friends," and we hand-delivered it to Mr. Neighbor (Mrs. Neighbor was not home). DS did not want to do this, so we had a talk about how even if we didn't mean to offend someone, we need to make it right. I gave the example of breaking a toy by accident -- even though you didn't mean to do it, you should still say that you are sorry. He understood that.

 

I handed the note over myself and just had DS stand beside me. I then told DS he could go away, and to Mr. Neighbor I said, "DS has some social disabilities that we are working on. I wanted this to be a learning experience for him. If anything else ever comes up, please let us know; we are always willing to talk about it." He was completely gracious and said that they totally understood and had been in similar positions with their daughter with SN.

 

So I'm glad that we cleared the air. I hope that DS has learned something, and I'm going to feel freer now to bring this kind of thing up with our friends without worrying that they will be judgmental.

[MysteryJen]

About the boys at the gym, if they are teasing him and each other. That is all pretty normal. We went through a time when all the 10 yo boys around made up nicknames for each other. Not all nice, but everyone got one, and was part of the group. Boys are weird. So if he is part of the general teasing and boy bonding stuff at the gym (while he may not understand the subtleties) that is pretty good. He is part of the group.

[OneStepAtATime]

Update: I had DS write a note saying, "I'm sorry about the note I sent the other day. I'm glad we are friends," and we hand-delivered it to Mr. Neighbor (Mrs. Neighbor was not home). DS did not want to do this, so we had a talk about how even if we didn't mean to offend someone, we need to make it right. I gave the example of breaking a toy by accident -- even though you didn't mean to do it, you should still say that you are sorry. He understood that.

 

I handed the note over myself and just had DS stand beside me. I then told DS he could go away, and to Mr. Neighbor I said, "DS has some social disabilities that we are working on. I wanted this to be a learning experience for him. If anything else ever comes up, please let us know; we are always willing to talk about it." He was completely gracious and said that they totally understood and had been in similar positions with their daughter with SN.

 

So I'm glad that we cleared the air. I hope that DS has learned something, and I'm going to feel freer now to bring this kind of thing up with our friends without worrying that they will be judgmental.

Good job, Mom!  :)

[PeterPan]

Glad it went well!