Do you think my boys would get in-state tuition (NC)?

[Penguin]

Do you think my boys would get in-state tuition in NC? I have two different situations to explore.

We currently live overseas but still own a home in NC, pay property taxes and state taxes.

 

#1

Rising 9th grader. Assume DS and I move back into our NC home the summer before his senior year but Dad (the guy with the income and a foreign 1040 address) stays overseas. Assume DS gets his drivers license in NC and attends college classes at a NC community college or state uni for senior year.

 

#2

Current college student DS21. Has not lived in NC for several years. He graduated from high school overseas and now attends a private college not in NC.

 

Does he have any hope for in-state tuition for grad school? If he lived in our house for a year after graduation (with an internship in his field) would he get in-state tuition after that?

Does grad school care about the income or location of your parents? That is probably a different question...but tell me, if you know.

 

Yes, I can contact the schools and ask them . But I already know that I would likely get inconsistent answers. When DS21 applied to NC state schools (from overseas) for undergrad, some granted him in-state tuition and some did not. Same application.

[G5052]

I can say that in my state, you probably would have problems.  Here the protocol is set at the state level for all state institutions, and the people I know at the colleges where I work who make this sort of determination tell me that it's pretty cut-and-dried.  

 

Here if a student is under 24 years old and is claimed as a dependent on the parent's income tax, they are assumed to be a resident with the parents.  

 

I've heard of colleges wanting pay stubs and the first page of the parent's tax return to determine residency.  Owning property and living there isn't enough in my state.

 

Also selective state colleges here have fall application deadlines and will make an initial determination of residency at that time.  Of course you can then appeal when it comes time to actually pay the tuition bill in the summer before they start, but if you are hoping for merit aid you also need to keep in mind that some merit aid requires state residency, and you won't have that.

 

 Also when you apply in the fall of the senior year, you won't have completion of community college classes to show that you're serious about being a resident of NC.

 

It's complicated, I know.  And what they tell you on the phone isn't necessarily what will be ruled by the person who makes the actual determination. And it can be appealed of course.

 

 

 

[JanetC]

It's complicated, I know. And what they tell you on the phone isn't necessarily what will be ruled by the person who makes the actual determination. And it can be appealed of course.

 

For the FAFSA, it would not matter if you lived in NC on income from Denmark. The custodial parent is the person is the one the student lives with, not the one who is earning the most income. Specifically, it's where the student lived the most in the previous calendar year, so six months and a day.

 

However, for in state tuition, it will probably matter how long you have been living in NC before enrolling in college: Could he do something other than dual enrollment for senior year? Would he be willing to defer enrollment to the spring semester after graduating to get a few more months of residency?

 

It may also matter why you are overseas. If you went with the military, foreign service, or something else that could be considered serving our country, there would definitely be special consideration for that.

 

It definitely is complicated. All you can do is read the policies carefully, ask lots of questions, and be prepared to appeal if needed.

[Penguin]

Duh. Of course I should have realized that DS would actually need to be here for 11th grade in order to qualify as in-state at the time of applications. Sigh. I think we are pretty much screwed out of in-state tuition unless our circumstances change.

 

Even though that is NOT FAIR!!

[Laura Corin]

Duh. Of course I should have realized that DS would actually need to be here for 11th grade in order to qualify as in-state at the time of applications. Sigh. I think we are pretty much screwed out of in-state tuition unless our circumstances change.

 

Even though that is NOT FAIR!!

 

It's difficult.  One of the reasons we moved back to the UK when we did was that we needed to be in the country for three years before Calvin went to university to get local rates.  As the UK doesn't charge overseas citizens taxes, I didn't feel too bad about that though.  

[Little Women]

Many years ago, when we lived overseas, the key issue was absentee voting.   My friend whose parents had maintained their drivers' licenses and bank accounts in the state we went to college in had trouble proving residency, but they accepted my parents' voting registration and record without question.   (My parents always voted in absentia, but left blank most of the local issues, instead of voting at the embassy.)

[TechWife]

No, I don't think either of the situations you describe qualify for in-state tuition.  

 

There is a difference between owning property and being an in-state resident. In order to be an in-state resident, you must "domicile" in the state. In other words, parent(s) and student must actually live in NC. 

 

-property ownership is not proof of residency

-the place of residence must be "true, fixed and permanent" - in other words, you have to really live there and it can't be a temporary situation, such as camping or living in a hotel

-parent/child must live in the state for a minimum of 12 uninterrupted months immediately prior to admission. 

- must prove that they moved to NC with the intent to remain indefinitely 

-must prove that they can live in NC indefinitely (age, immigration status, one's own financial resources)

- must prove that they did not move to NC for the sole purpose of becoming eligible for in-state tuition

 

Each individual university in the state makes an initial determination of whether or not the student qualifies for in-state tuition. These initial determinations are not binding across universities. A university determination is also not binding should the student transfer to another institution. Each institution makes their own decision. I

 

There are specific guidelines for the homeless and military families and there are also some special provisions for a few other limited situations. 

 

This document is very helpful. 

 

I didn't see any mention in the document of where the parent works, only where they reside. However, unless you can prove that you moved to NC for a reason other than to obtain in-state resident rates, the fact that your husband will reside and work out of the country could cast doubt on your intent to "domicile" in the state indefinitely. 

 

Whether or not he attends college classes in high school does not impact the determination of residency for college purposes. In any case, it is highly likely he would have to prove legal residency in order to enroll in those classes in the first place (see p. 21 of the linked document). Because of that, I wouldn't count on him being able to take college classes at a community college or university during his senior year. 

 

The rules for in-state vs. out-of-state are the same for undergraduate and graduate programs. 

 

If a person graduates from an NC public high school, they can get in-state tuition rates at a community college. This does not mean that they have met requirements, it simply means that they can get in-state tuition. If I understand this provision correctly, if you move with your  younger son and he graduates from a public high school, he can spend a year at a community college while you establish residency. 

 

I hope this helps, some. 

[Penguin]

Thanks for the helpful answers.

 

I would like to clarify that in no way would we be moving back to NC just to gain in-state tuition. North Carolina is our home. We will retire there. My husband might even be able to retire before DS graduates from high school. Once I move back, I am stayin' put.

 

Same thing for the graduate student. He would be moving to NC because, well, that is where his family's home is located. No longer does he have the right to reside in Denmark. He has to go somewhere after graduation, and he may want to work for a year before applying to grad school. NC would be a logical, not contrived, place for him to move.

 

TechWife, I didn't see anything in the linked document that would preclude my son from taking college classes in NC as a senior. I would expect to pay out-of-state tuition if we had just moved back at that point, but I think he can take the classes if he has the stats.

[Michelle_NC]

Have you seen this?

 

http://www.ncsu.edu/grad/about-grad/docs/residency-handout-2013.pdf

 

I think military kids might get a little more leeway than the general public.  But they will want to see that your sons intend to reside and stay in NC for something other than tuition purposes.  Owning real estate will definitely help as well as some of the other things listed in the pdf.

 

Good luck!

[fdrinca]

With regards to graduate school (no personal experience with undergrad, but could be the same), schools will re-evaluate tuition status semester by semester, so that a student paying out-of-state could pay in-state after a semester or two.

[MarkT]

I would follow up with NC.  You are ex-pats and that is always a special residence situation.   Do you still have a US domicile in NC?  What do your tax returns use?

 

[TechWife]

TechWife, I didn't see anything in the linked document that would preclude my son from taking college classes in NC as a senior. I would expect to pay out-of-state tuition if we had just moved back at that point, but I think he can take the classes if he has the stats.

 

Yes, he can take classes if he meets the requirements for entrance into the CCP program. He can't get the tuition waiver though (the CCP program is tuition free) and like you said, you would have to pay out of state tuition. So really, what is free for an NC resident would cost you the out of state tuition rate. Community college would still be a good deal, financially, though. Most of the full universities don't have room for high school students and are very picky about who they take. Additionally, if a course is offered at a nearby community college, the university very often will turn the student's dual enrollment request down. It's one of those situations where each university makes it's own decisions, so YMMV. 

[TechWife]

I would follow up with NC.  You are ex-pats and that is always a special residence situation.   Do you still have a US domicile in NC?  What do your tax returns use?

 

No, it's not a special situation. It happens all the time. It happens quite frequently in NC, in fact. It is a very internationally minded state, home to multiple international corporations. NC has specific regulations that I linked up thread. Property ownership and the address on the tax returns have nothing to do with determining eligibility for in state tuition rates. 

[plansrme]

Duh. Of course I should have realized that DS would actually need to be here for 11th grade in order to qualify as in-state at the time of applications. Sigh. I think we are pretty much screwed out of in-state tuition unless our circumstances change.

 

Even though that is NOT FAIR!!

 

Keep in mind that eligibility for in-state tuition is based on the 12 months prior to admission, so he would need to be there only before his senior year as you have planned.  I don't know how he would be considered for admission purposes, which would matter mostly for the competitive NC schools such as UNC-CH, which have to fill a certain percentage of their slots with in-state residents.

 

Depending upon your older son's field, his residency may or may not matter for tuition purposes.  

[JanetC]

No, it's not a special situation. It happens all the time. It happens quite frequently in NC, in fact. It is a very internationally minded state, home to multiple international corporations. NC has specific regulations that I linked up thread. Property ownership and the address on the tax returns have nothing to do with determining eligibility for in state tuition rates. 

 

The document is written by the residency offer for the graduate school. It's clearly geared towards older students who could own a home, be financially independent of their parents, etc. OP should ask about undergrad rules as she decides what to do.

[TechWife]

The document is written by the residency offer for the graduate school. It's clearly geared towards older students who could own a home, be financially independent of their parents, etc. OP should ask about undergrad rules as she decides what to do.

 

 

The document I linked is not the one you are referring to. The document I linked is the State Residence Classification Manual. It applies to all University of North Carolina System schools and all North Carolina Community Colleges. The same residency requirements apply to both undergraduate and graduate students. 

 

 

[MarkT]

The document I linked is not the one you are referring to. The document I linked is the State Residence Classification Manual. It applies to all University of North Carolina System schools and all North Carolina Community Colleges. The same residency requirements apply to both undergraduate and graduate students. 

of interest from that doc:

 

To be domiciled in a particular place, one must intend to remain there for an indefinite period of

time (permanently), and it is the place where one intends to return if absent. A person may have many residences,

but may only have one domicile. For purposes of this Manual, “domicile†is synonymous with "legal residence."

 

Since Penguin is currently absent does this apply?

I am not a lawyer but this is what I was getting at.

Exiting stage left ...

 

Good Luck

[TechWife]

of interest from that doc:

 

To be domiciled in a particular place, one must intend to remain there for an indefinite period of

time (permanently), and it is the place where one intends to return if absent. A person may have many residences,

but may only have one domicile. For purposes of this Manual, “domicile†is synonymous with "legal residence."

 

Since Penguin is currently absent does this apply?

I am not a lawyer but this is what I was getting at.

Exiting stage left ...

 

Good Luck

 

No, she has to live in NC for twelve consecutive months in order to be "domiciled." One cannot "return" to NC if one is not currently residing in NC - at least that's the way I understand it. 

[Lanny]

I believe that since you own a house there and pay taxes there, that's helps a lot. But the state law will be the deciding factor for both of your kids. They define who is a Resident for in state tuition and who is a Non Resident, for out of state tuition. That's probably readily available on the web site of the school(s) you are looking at.  GL

 

P.S.

Since you are Overseas Americans and your DH is filing his 1040 with an Overseas Mailing Address, I think a lot would depend upon whether or not he declares himself to be a North Carolina resident and is filing a North Carolina State Income tax return and  paying North Carolina State Income Tax (if that is required, based on him being overseas)

 

P.P.S.

This may also depend upon your Absentee Voting registration status.  I vote absentee in Texas and I only vote in Federal elections. If you state that you intend to return to NC and if you are also voting in State and local elections, I suspect that will help.

[Corraleno]

The problem with the manual (linked by Techwife) is that, while it acknowledges that domicile and residency are not the same thing, and it addresses situations where a student may be resident but not domiciled, it does not address situations where NC is in fact the legal domicile of someone who is temporarily resident elsewhere. Although it states that a NC domicile is the requirement for in-state tuition, it implies that actually domicile plus 12 months of residency are required. I'm not surprised that different colleges provided conflicting answers to the in-state tuition question!

 

Penguin, you mentioned that you own property there and pay property and state income taxes — do you and your DH also maintain NC driver's licenses and voter registration there? Do you have bank accounts there? Do you have extended family there? By any chance do you, or your family, own burial plots there? How long did you live in NC before you moved abroad, and how long have you been away? How often do you visit? Those are the kinds of things that can strengthen or weaken a claim of NC domicile.

 

If I were you, I would try to contact a lawyer in NC who deals with these kinds of issues to (1) confirm that you qualify as NC-domiciled, and (2) get a legal opinion regarding the wording of the NC regulations on in-state tuition. In my opinion, as someone who is not a professional but who lived abroad for 10 years while maintaining a US domicile (and was considered US-domiciled for UK tax purposes), I think if you can answer "yes" to many of the items in the 2nd paragraph, above, you should not have any problem demonstrating NC domicile. What you need to clarify is whether 12 months of residency is required in addition to domicile, or not, and if so whether the 12 months immediately prior to enrollment (rather than application) is sufficient. Then you can plan when/if to move back to NC.

 

 

[Frosch]

We live overseas and my son has in-state tuition in NC but....he started attending college in NC while we lived in NC (military) and we moved overseas after his freshman year.  He can complete his undergraduate degree as an instate student (per the college’s residency rules for military) but he will have to establish NC residency for graduate school.  

I have no idea how we could establish residency if we had been living overseas prior to his HS senior year.  But I do know that before he was given instate status, his college offered him financial aide to equal the cost for instate students.