English (Majority language) taking over now that siblings are talking more...

[4KookieKids]

I used the "baby sibling only speaks German" trick when my kids were smaller to get them speaking German (our minority language) to each other... But now they're 6,4,2 and newborn, and they've figured out that speaking English with each other is just much easier and faster... which has them in "English mode" often, and they're speaking German less and less with me as well. I find myself saying "Auf Deutsch" to the oldest two every five minutes... What do you guys do to encourage minority language usage with each other (or just you!) ?

 

My 6 yo caught me responding to them in English once today and called me on it, and I considered making it a game - he gets a prize everytime he catches me but loses the prize if I catch him more than (blank) times that day, or something like that? I'm just super tired of reminding them, but don't know what other options I have!

 

ETA: The 4 and 6 yo do distinguish their languages and CAN respond to a cue for German. We're not strictly OPOL because my husband was feeling left out when he was home and we were all speaking German (and cannot invest the time to learn German at this point). But there are virtually no German speakers in our town (two native speakers that we've found).

[regentrude]

BTDT. At that point, it was pretty much a lost cause. We continued to speak in German TO them, but the siblings would always talk in English to one another and often respond to us in English.

We made sure there was plenty of exposure to movies and audiobooks, and I taught them to read German as soon as they were able to read in English.

Visits to German family were always a big boost. But enforcing native language among siblings - no good way to do that.

 

If it is any consolation: mine are both fluent and can read. I incorporated some structured German in their homeschool coursework. DD took a German lit class at college and did very well, even with her compositions. So, even though they don't speak voluntarily, they know the language and will speak with German with German-only speakers.

 

 

 

[Junie]

I've mentioned this on another thread...

 

I have a friend who is from South America.  Spanish is her primary language; English is secondary.  Everyone else in the family speaks English as a first language and Spanish as a second language.

 

To encourage her dc to speak more Spanish, she made a "Spanish only" rule for lunch time.  It was daily; it was a limited amount of time; it was supervised.  I think that it worked well for her family.

 

Maybe you could do this as well, and if you do it while dh is at work, he won't feel left out.

[4KookieKids]

BTDT. At that point, it was pretty much a lost cause. We continued to speak in German TO them, but the siblings would always talk in English to one another and often respond to us in English.

 

This is discouraging... I appreciate the honesty, but it's still discouraging.

[regentrude]

This is discouraging... I appreciate the honesty, but it's still discouraging.

 

But the encouraging part is that they still managed to develop fluency.

I realize I can't force my children to speak German with each other, but that is not really my goal. My goal is that they are fluent in German - and that has been accomplished, despite their choice to communicate in English.

[Arcadia]

This is discouraging... I appreciate the honesty, but it's still discouraging.

My kids didn't speak full sentences in their heritage language until this year. Now they talk to each other in full sentences in German or Chinese. For DS10, he started conversing in full sentences in German after being in the next level German class in Saturday school which don't allow English during class time. DS9 would be in that class in fall so he has been making effort to practice speaking complete sentences in German.

 

We have always been very relaxed with the learning of Chinese as it is our heritage language and kids hear us speaking everyday. The fact that he is one of the few Chinese unable to speak Chinese well has finally reach a tipping point for DS10. Now he is picking up fast.

 

I find for my kids 9 was the age where they start thinking more about identity. They start using chopsticks much more often as well.

 

Kids have their own timeline. Maybe only my strong willed ones :lol:

 

Many onlookers have chided hubby and me over the years for not pushing our heritage language. We are just thankful kids are not rebelling against learning our heritage language. We don't want it to become a chore the way it has become an abhorred chore for his nieces and nephew.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Sympathy for OP.  My children actually talk to each other in the minority language (English) and talk to dad and at the playground int he majority language (French) but dd3 REFUSES to speak French.  She understands it perfectly, but will not speak it.  We had no problems with OPOL with the two oldest, but with dd3, we are struggling.  

 

Because it is the majority language she is refusing to speak, we will just be aiming for more exposure, especially situations where she can't get away with English- a day of pre-k, etc.  Our awesome paediatrician told us to just let it go.  As long as she is clearly understanding, she will speak it when she darn well feels like it.  lol.  Forcing will only make her resist more.  

 

 

[YsgolYGair]

It's a rule in our house that children have to speak Welsh to each other, so they have learned to do so. We don't make a game of it; we just lay down the law, lol.

[yinanyinu]

Same here, DC have to speak my language to each other, at least while I'm in earshot. It works well enough, but they of course don't do it all the time, not even when I'm around. Even DH reminds them to speak my language. DC are pre-teen, so as they get older and spend more time away from the family, this will probably change.

 

But here's the funny thing, when people ask DS what language he uses to speak to his sister, he says English(!) which they rarely speak to each other. And if DD is asked, she will say that they speak a mix of languages to each other... So, who's right?

 

Anyway, keep encouraging it and create opportunities for them to speak to each other and to you in the minority language.

[regentrude]

It's a rule in our house that children have to speak Welsh to each other, so they have learned to do so. We don't make a game of it; we just lay down the law, lol.

 

And how do you enforce it when they simply don't?

 

Your kids are still young; it was not until a few years later that English took over in our house. With little ones, yes, they spoke German just fine to each other.

[Arcadia]

 

But here's the funny thing, when people ask DS what language he uses to speak to his sister, he says English(!) which they rarely speak to each other. And if DD is asked, she will say that they speak a mix of languages to each other... So, who's right?

 

My kids would say English too because the schools would comically classify them as ESL if they say something else. So my kids are just giving a convenient answer.

[yinanyinu]

And how do you enforce it when they simply don't?

 

TBH, there is no real enforcement.

 

I talk up my culture a lot, which is very strange since I'm not nationalistic or patriotic at all. There is a lot of RAH-RAH, my country is great. I say that they can't claim to be from a certain country or city and not be able to communicate with people from that place. I also talk about all the foods they like and the special clothes they wear and how it's all meaningless and a costume if they can't communicate. None of this is logical, but it seems to work to a degree. Perhaps most importantly, I talk about how we all speak in different registers in various languages, and in my own language, I feel very close and intimate with the other speaker, but in another language I feel more detached and professional. So, I really play up that my heritage language is the language of my close relationships. As I said, it's not logical since I speak to DH in English, but I do mention how much closer I would feel and how much easier communicating would be if we had the same heritage language.

 

I also am over-the-top enthusiastic when they do something using my language, like if they make a random friend at the airport, I will go on and on about how great that is, and aren't they glad they know my language, otherwise they wouldn't have made a new friend. Ditto going to the barber, or ordering food, or any little thing they do without me but in my language.

 

So for now, they still like to hang out with my side of the family, still like to go back to my home country, still like to wear the special clothes, celebrate the special holidays, etc. That seems to keep them going. Once those connections begin to become more tenuous, I think the language will begin to disappear too. I know this is the case but I'm hoping it won't happen.

[yinanyinu]

My kids would say English too because the schools would comically classify them as ESL if they say something else. So my kids are just giving a convenient answer.

 

 I hadn't thought of this, but you're right, he's just trying to fit in.

[Mabelen]

My kids would say English too because the schools would comically classify them as ESL if they say something else. So my kids are just giving a convenient answer.

Really? Wow! Both my kids were tested when they entered school in California because I declared Spanish as one of their home languages. I was annoyed at my rising 8th grader having to be tested when she had tons of standardized testing showing her at the 99th percentile in English L.A. and reading. I understood my rising kindergartener having to be tested though. Both of them were tested and both were deemed English proficient, never had to set foot on an ESL class.

[YsgolYGair]

And how do you enforce it when they simply don't?

 

Your kids are still young; it was not until a few years later that English took over in our house. With little ones, yes, they spoke German just fine to each other.

 

"Speak Welsh with Welsh Speakers" is a rule of our house - written down on our house rules chart right next to "Eat the Food that is Offered to You" and "Be Kind to One Another." We would enforce it same as any other rule. We're old fashioned that way: Our House, Our Rules. They can make their own rules in their own houses, lol.

 

That being said, it is common practice in homes and schools in this area to do the same - to require children to speak Welsh. So, it's not some novel thing.

[Arcadia]

. Both of them were tested and both were deemed English proficient, never had to set foot on an ESL class.

 

There is extra funding for ESL so a neighbor's child did a year of ESL pullouts eventhough he was a bilingual 3rd grader when he went to public school from private school.

[Mabelen]

There is extra funding for ESL so a neighbor's child did a year of ESL pullouts eventhough he was a bilingual 3rd grader when he went to public school from private school.

That is the case here too in terms of extra funding. I know in our district the parents get the ESL test results broken down in all the areas tested and what English language proficiency level each score corresponds to. I am assuming this is standard procedure. I am also assuming that parents can contest the placement. In my daughter's school there is a high percentage of first generation students with different foreign languages and various degrees of proficiency in English when they enter school. Not all are classified ESL. It may be an imperfect system, I don't know enough to tell, but it is not an arbitrary system where a student will immediately be classified ESL on the basis of family language alone.

[ebunny]

In my experience of living in a bi-lingual country, to achieve full/proficient bilingualism/multilingualism, children often go through phases where they use one language consistently over another. For instance, I/we spoke to my DD in her native language only. But, once she gained a certian amount of proficiency, she began adding in words from English and regional languages. For a brief time, English dominated (because of books, other media et al). But, now that she's proficiently speaks multiple languages (can switch languages at ease), she's back to speaking with us in our native tongue; in English/regional language with her friends.

 

Having said that, I don't have suggestions on how to maintain bilingualism in a country where only English/one language is spoken in the public sphere. My DD is an only child so the sibling effect is non-existent.

[regentrude]

"Speak Welsh with Welsh Speakers" is a rule of our house - written down on our house rules chart right next to "Eat the Food that is Offered to You" and "Be Kind to One Another." We would enforce it same as any other rule. We're old fashioned that way: Our House, Our Rules. They can make their own rules in their own houses, lol.

 

 

My question was HOW you enforce it.

 

Do you put the kids in timeout, beat them, make them write lines in Welsh, or withdraw privileges if you catch them speaking English with each other? What exactly do you DO that is successful in making them adhere to your rules?

 

[YsgolYGair]

My question was HOW you enforce it.

 

Do you put the kids in timeout, beat them, make them write lines in Welsh, or withdraw privileges if you catch them speaking English with each other? What exactly do you DO that is successful in making them adhere to your rules?

 

 

Okay... just because something is a rule, doesn't mean that punitive action is used to enforce it. I mean, we're not going to make a child stand in the corner for not finishing his vegetables. They just get to eat them at the next meal before they get anything else to eat. In the same way, we don't discipline for linguistic issues. We do maintain a general level of discipline in our home, off of which our linguist rules piggy-back, so that when we say, "Speak Welsh." they obey and turn to Welsh. That's the rule aspect.

 

As far as linguistic-specific methods of enforcement:

1. It is their habit: Our children are Welsh first language. We (Gwyndaf, really) has worked HARD to make this happen - resisting family pressure and all sorts. They spoke Welsh for at least a year before they learned English, so they developed a habit of speaking Welsh to each other. This habit is of utmost importance, as people sort of "imprint" linguistically onto another person. Once two people become accustomed to speaking a language to each other, changing can be very uncomfortable, if not impossible. 

2. Lots of reminding: The kids don't really ever speak English to each other, even though both are fluent, but if they should ever, or if they speak to me in English, Gwyndaf reminds them. Every. Single. Time.

3. We limit English wherever possible: Gwyndaf doesn't let the kids watch English kids TV. If they want to watch something, they have to choose Welsh or French (or pretty much any other language, lol).

4. He also spends a lot of time talking with them about the importance of Welsh and trying to get them to love it. 

5. In our case, if more enforcement were needed, it would come in the form of me stopping speaking English and insisting that we all speak Welsh to each other. Up until now, it is mostly my husband's thing, and that's fine, but if I were to insist upon Welsh only, my insistence would go very far. (Some of this influence has less to do with my language and more to do with the good relationships that I've fostered with each of my children, but that's personal to each family and each parent.)

6. My husband is so concerned about the influence of English, that he is seriously considering moving our family to a non-English-speaking country.

 

Gwyndaf has spent lots of time researching minority language in the home, particularly where one parent is not fluent, and how to go about making sure the kids are fluent, first language, and preferred. I asked him about this discussion and his response was that once kids become accustomed to speaking English to each other, all is basically lost. Drastic measures must be taken to reverse this damage, such as going to a non-English place where a child must learn to survive in their minority language. Even then, they won't necessarily learn to speak to each other. Perhaps for this, it might actually be necessary to separate them, and get them to the place where their English is rusty enough that they no longer feel comfortable using it. That's crazy drastic, but for Gwyndaf, there is little sacrifice that is too great to make sure that our kids love, prefer and pass on Welsh.  

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

.

 

Gwyndaf has spent lots of time researching minority language in the home, particularly where one parent is not fluent, and how to go about making sure the kids are fluent, first language, and preferred. I asked him about this discussion and his response was that once kids become accustomed to speaking English to each other, all is basically lost. Drastic measures must be taken to reverse this damage, such as going to a non-English place where a child must learn to survive in their minority language. Even then, they won't necessarily learn to speak to each other. Perhaps for this, it might actually be necessary to separate them, and get them to the place where their English is rusty enough that they no longer feel comfortable using it. That's crazy drastic, but for Gwyndaf, there is little sacrifice that is too great to make sure that our kids love, prefer and pass on Welsh.  

 

I was nodding along, happily agreeing with you, until I got to this last paragraph.  I cannot even imagine how, in any possible way, separating siblings in order to force them to use a language could be a healthy or desirable thing!  It's not only drastic, but it seems pretty damaging.  Why not separate them from their non-desired-language speaking mother while we're at it???  

 

But in all other ways, I agree.  

 

To get back to the siblings thing- my MIL was raised in a French speaking home, spoke French with her three siblings until they started school (German in school).  With time, they switched to speaking German with each other.  As adults, she speaks German with her two sisters, who live in German speaking cantons, and French with her brother who lives in a French speaking canton.  She speaks French with her two sons (DH and BIL), and German with her cousins.  All four of her generation (she and her three siblings) are perfectly bilingual.  Obviously they live in a bilingual country, and that helps, but the language line between cantons is pretty firm.  

[YsgolYGair]

I was nodding along, happily agreeing with you, until I got to this last paragraph.  I cannot even imagine how, in any possible way, separating siblings in order to force them to use a language could be a healthy or desirable thing!  It's not only drastic, but it seems pretty damaging.  Why not separate them from their non-desired-language speaking mother while we're at it???  

 

But in all other ways, I agree.  

 

To get back to the siblings thing- my MIL was raised in a French speaking home, spoke French with her three siblings until they started school (German in school).  With time, they switched to speaking German with each other.  As adults, she speaks German with her two sisters, who live in German speaking cantons, and French with her brother who lives in a French speaking canton.  She speaks French with her two sons (DH and BIL), and German with her cousins.  All four of her generation (she and her three siblings) are perfectly bilingual.  Obviously they live in a bilingual country, and that helps, but the language line between cantons is pretty firm.  

 

No, no.. I'm not really suggesting it.. not by a mile. Just looking at the drastic measures that would be necessary, with "all being basically lost."

 

One thing that it might be helpful to explain about our personal bilingual situation is the exhaustive contention my husband's determination in this area has caused in my life and our marriage. I don't like it when my kids aren't allowed to speak English to me. English is my native language. But, for him, it means more than the world to him that his children would love and pass on Welsh. That's probably the reason for my slightly dry response on the "drastic measures." I mean, we've argued about pretty much nothing else in the last five years, and now I'm facing yet another massive country move, because of it. I try to get on board with it, and be as positive as I can, but the truth is, it gets a little overwhelming.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

No, no.. I'm not really suggesting it.. not by a mile. Just looking at the drastic measures that would be necessary, with "all being basically lost."

 

One thing that it might be helpful to explain about our personal bilingual situation is the exhaustive contention my husband's determination in this area has caused in my life and our marriage. I don't like it when my kids aren't allowed to speak English to me. English is my native language. But, for him, it means more than the world to him that his children would love and pass on Welsh. That's probably the reason for my slightly dry response on the "drastic measures." I mean, we've argued about pretty much nothing else in the last five years, and now I'm facing yet another massive country move, because of it. I try to get on board with it, and be as positive as I can, but the truth is, it gets a little overwhelming.

It is hard to be in a bilingual marriage, isn't it?  I have seen my husband get *the look* when he hears the kids speaking English together. The difference is that where we live English is the minority language, so it's not a problem that they speak English together, except possibly for number 3, who is currently refusing French completely.  

 

I hope as your kids get older your DH can calm down a little.  You should each be allowed to speak to your child in your own mother tongue.  That's why it's a "mother tongue".  :-)  It would almost be easier for you if you moved to a Welsh speaking area, because then you would need to speak English to keep their English up!  

[YsgolYGair]

It is hard to be in a bilingual marriage, isn't it?  I have seen my husband get *the look* when he hears the kids speaking English together. The difference is that where we live English is the minority language, so it's not a problem that they speak English together, except possibly for number 3, who is currently refusing French completely.  

 

I hope as your kids get older your DH can calm down a little.  You should each be allowed to speak to your child in your own mother tongue.  That's why it's a "mother tongue".  :-)  It would almost be easier for you if you moved to a Welsh speaking area, because then you would need to speak English to keep their English up!  

 

I thought it was just my husband! Nice to know I'm not the only one, lol. The interesting thing is, we're pretty much in the Welsh-est place in the world. It's the community language around here. But, English still has such a presence that Gwyndaf still sees it as an issue. Thankfully, we get a year "off" coming up as we'll be in France for the next academic year. Since there won't be as much English around, there won't be quite the pressure. Now, if only I could speak French...

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Oh wait, how did I miss that you're in Wales???  lol.  Yes, you should definitely get to speak to the kids in English!  

 

Where in France?  Near the Swiss border, by any chance?  :-)  

 

We homeschool about 50/50 French/English.  I try to get a LOT of audio books in French so that my accent and my own (in)abilities don't stop the kids from moving forward.  My son reads better in French than I do (that's not as awful as it sounds... he is a very advanced reader) and my daughter is not far behind.  But to teach math, it's all about the English.  All I do is make sure from time to time that they can read a number in French (i.e. "How do you say 325,579 in French?"), otherwise it would make my head spin to try to teach math in French.  

 

Good luck in France!
  

[ItoLina]

It's a rule in our house that children have to speak Welsh to each other, so they have learned to do so. We don't make a game of it; we just lay down the law, lol.

This is pretty much how it is here. They have to speak Spanish to each other and that been the rule since birth. Once in a while they slip, but at this point it's pretty rare.