Math for DD dyslexic... Help please

[lovinmomma]

I've tried several math's for DD who is dyslexic. Most recently, we tried CLE. She hated it from day 1. I think it looks boring to her? I'm not sure, but it became torture to get dd to do her math. I've read that Ronit Bird is suggested, but I don't have an ipad and cannot afford one. Would it be best to buy the print books, or to find a different curriculum? I was considering Saxon Math because of it's spiral nature. I just need some ideas.

[OneStepAtATime]

Ronit Bird might help but it is not a complete program. What programs have you tried and what specific areas does she struggle with? How far along in math is she?

[lovinmomma]

Ronit Bird might help but it is not a complete program. What programs have you tried and what specific areas does she struggle with? How far along in math is she?

 

I would say that she has 3rd grade math skills. We've tried CLE, Khan, Math Mammoth, and Singapore.

[OneStepAtATime]

Ok gonna ask a few more questions so hopefully people can help you out.

 

When you "try" a program, how long do you stick with something?

 

Do you give a placement test?

 

How are her subitization skills?

 

Where, specifically does she seem to struggle?

[lovinmomma]

Ok gonna ask a few more questions so hopefully people can help you out.

 

When you "try" a program, how long do you stick with something?

 

Do you give a placement test?

 

How are her subitization skills?

 

Where, specifically does she seem to struggle?

 

We usually try out a curriculum for at least a couple of months. I do give placement tests. How are her subitization skills? I would say shaky. She has trouble remembering the processes, she often gets lost within the problem and won't answer the problem correctly because she's not giving the information that's being asked. Addition and subtraction facts are VERY rough as well as x and /.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Then maybe getting the Ronit Bird books and starting over with subitization skills might help. Just start at the very beginning, using the Ronit Bird activities to help her SEE basic math.

 

FWIW, this along with Dynamo Math, did help DD. Didn't solve every issue but it did finally give her a fighting chance of successfully moving forward.

 

We started completely over with very, very basic subitization skills in the middle of 6th grade. She is finally at the tail end of 4th grade math and while we still run into walls to try to surmount, with time and patience she is making it. She is technically in the end of 8th grade and is moving faster now. She may move in to prealgebra by what would be mid 9th.

[PeterPan]

My dd struggled with her facts for years, despite RightStart, spiral, Abeka drills, Flashmaster, you name it. She only has ADHD, no math disability label.  My ds6 has all three SLDs (math, reading, and writing), a number of other issues, and that child can do his math facts like nobody's business.  

 

The difference?  Ronit Bird.  

 

Ok, so minor details like last week he couldn't tell me 4 came before 5, lol.  But we hadn't DONE that in Ronit Bird.  Anything we've done in Ronit Bird so far, he's stellar on. (Or maybe we did sequencing and I didn't do a good job of it?  That could be, lol.)  The other great secret is that I use the Fast Facts Math app and select the problems that we've done using RB.  I have him read the *aloud* as he does them.  We're working on doubles right now with RB C-Rods, and man we have been stuck there seemingly FOREVER.  But forever is what it takes with him.  

 

And I sneak in living math around the day too.  Like today he was upset, and instead of saying count backwards from 10 to 0, I said count backwards from 10 to -2.   :D  Seriously, this is fair game, kwim?  

 

As far as completeness, I've decided in my soul to take a long-term view.  He has a math disability and the words don't actually mean anything to him.  I mean we are literally creating meaning for every single word, and he needs to interact with that word enough (18, 2 of something, etc.) till these words MEAN something to him.  That's his glitch.  He can memorize words, but he can't understand what they MEAN.  So I don't see the point in rushing into some algorithm and saying looking, grade level, when the number 18 means nothing to him.  He seems pretty adept at using quantities once he understands them.

 

If I could do everything I dream, I'd be doing 4 short segments of 7-10 minutes each of math stuff each day.  So it would be like RB, a living math book, a math game, app drill, etc., bam, bam, bam.  But I don't live my ideals, sigh.  

 

I have no clue how to solve anyone else's problems, mercy.  My dd didn't know her facts but the words meant something to her and she could still problem solve.  She just needed support on the facts, meaning that a math table or calculator got her over the hump, no problem.  Ds, on the other hand, is just completely held back.  The words don't even mean anything to him.  Three, 18, nothing MEANS anything to him.  It's just so totally different to work with.  I think a lot of people work around poor subitization backgrounds because they can just memorize.  However, with ds and the words not meaning anything, having no -ness for him, there just isn't a way to build with that, kwim?  Spiral can help if you just need more repetition, but it's not going to fill other holes.

 

As for affordability, we've suggested this before to people and they were able to find a way.  If you can find someone to *borrow* the use of an ipad from, that would be an option.  Like maybe a MIL, a friend at church, someone, anyone.  If you could just go over and read the next chapter in the ebook, make your notes, then go teach for the week, you'd be fine.  That's all you need.  It's under $10 for one of the ebooks and it really is your best way to start.  Of course I don't know where she's at.  I have the printed books, all three, but I LOVE the ebooks.  The printed books are not so sequential and idiotproof, but they do have a higher starting point, helpful for a dc with more experience.  On the other hand, if you're filling in really basic things, the ebooks maybe good.  RB just released a free games ebook in iTunes.  

 

So beg/borrow, that would be my recommendation.  Much better than paying $50 for a printed book and realizing you're not happy.  It's just a better starting point.  Then you'll know whether it fits and what you actually need.

 

[Splash]

My dd liked Math u see as her math program.  She did very well with it and she liked the look of the pages and that there weren't too many words to deal with as well.

 

[jerrysgal4ever]

My son seemed to do well with Teaching Textbooks. It read all the problems to him and he could listen to the lecture as many times as he needed to. The lecture each day is short and understandable. He was able to retain things fairly well with it.

[Heathermomster]

DS learns best using manipulatives.  I take what I learned from RB's Overcoming Difficulties with Number and apply that knowledge to whatever math curriculum DS is using.  I used RB's print books before e-books were published.  DS knew his add/subtraction facts to 20 easily when we started RB, and he was a 5th grader.  RB's e-books would probably be better for a student that doesn't know their add/subtraction facts down cold.  

[PeterPan]

RB Dots especially is for someone who doesn't even have the number sense to learn math facts.  Ds didn't seem to understand "3" before RB.  There was no -ness for him.  RB C-Rods has been a lot slower going, and I think it's because she makes some leaps there, assuming -ness without developing it.  It took me by surprise, because I just sort of assumed if he got 0-9 he got the rest (1 ten 3, etc.).  Nope.

 

For my ds, once the -ness came, he could memorize the facts.  

[1shortmomto4]

Is this for your artistic child?  If so, look up the characteristics of a visual spatial/right brain learner - you just might find that this is where she fits.  After reading what you've tried and that they were used for just a couple of months each - that could be where the wires are crossing in her brain.  Those programs all teach so differently and some more abstractly (is that a word?) that as a result hasn't made any connections in her mind.  If she is VSL/RB you are in the fun and games and long haul.  They need mastery-type math taught in units, so to speak.  A program will seem like it is working and then she'll get bogged down and say it is too hard/too easy.  You'll need a smorgasborg of options to pull from at various types of levels.  Don't drill and don't expect a fast result in spouting off math facts - not going to happen.  She'll need to make connections in her head, usually with pictures, and then move on.  Play games to solidify lessons.  Read those books from the library about math stuff and then do some of the activities.  She'll need time to take breaks to let this stuff connect in her brain.  If she is RB/VSL don't immediately think online content.  Nope, they don't necessarily work better with screen time.  Now I did find some leapster games worked for practice but I never ever told my ds what I was hoping for - nope, let him just enjoy the games.  Perhaps spending some time with the Life of Fred books (start at square one and move at her pace).  MathUSee is great but I've found that as we went along we needed to move quicker and change subjects when he gets bogged down-hard to do in MUS.  Times Tales worked wonders and now they offer a video.  Just watching that a few times and bam, mastered.  Now, that doesn't mean my child is rattling the answers off fast because he has to search through the "rolodex" in his head to find the picture to make the connection and then answers it.  He's able to do advanced math (algebra) but just finished up on fractions and decimals.  I'm coming to the conclusion that teaching a VSL/RB math requires you to make a list of all the concepts and skills that you would like mastered by the end of the year and then work through that list in units. 

[lovinmomma]

Oh, my. So many helpful responses. Thank you! Does RB work on the iPad MINI? 

 

P.s. Work is busy. I'll be back to respond and ask more questions (I'm sure) soon.

[PeterPan]

I would think the RB ebooks will work fine on the ipad mini.  I *don't* think they work on the iphone, but they should work on the ipad mini.

[lovinmomma]

My dd struggled with her facts for years, despite RightStart, spiral, Abeka drills, Flashmaster, you name it. She only has ADHD, no math disability label.  My ds6 has all three SLDs (math, reading, and writing), a number of other issues, and that child can do his math facts like nobody's business.  

 

The difference?  Ronit Bird.  

 

Ok, so minor details like last week he couldn't tell me 4 came before 5, lol.  But we hadn't DONE that in Ronit Bird.  Anything we've done in Ronit Bird so far, he's stellar on. (Or maybe we did sequencing and I didn't do a good job of it?  That could be, lol.)  The other great secret is that I use the Fast Facts Math app and select the problems that we've done using RB.  I have him read the *aloud* as he does them.  We're working on doubles right now with RB C-Rods, and man we have been stuck there seemingly FOREVER.  But forever is what it takes with him.  

 

And I sneak in living math around the day too.  Like today he was upset, and instead of saying count backwards from 10 to 0, I said count backwards from 10 to -2.   :D  Seriously, this is fair game, kwim?  

 

As far as completeness, I've decided in my soul to take a long-term view.  He has a math disability and the words don't actually mean anything to him.  I mean we are literally creating meaning for every single word, and he needs to interact with that word enough (18, 2 of something, etc.) till these words MEAN something to him.  That's his glitch.  He can memorize words, but he can't understand what they MEAN.  So I don't see the point in rushing into some algorithm and saying looking, grade level, when the number 18 means nothing to him.  He seems pretty adept at using quantities once he understands them.

 

If I could do everything I dream, I'd be doing 4 short segments of 7-10 minutes each of math stuff each day.  So it would be like RB, a living math book, a math game, app drill, etc., bam, bam, bam.  But I don't live my ideals, sigh.  

 

I have no clue how to solve anyone else's problems, mercy.  My dd didn't know her facts but the words meant something to her and she could still problem solve.  She just needed support on the facts, meaning that a math table or calculator got her over the hump, no problem.  Ds, on the other hand, is just completely held back.  The words don't even mean anything to him.  Three, 18, nothing MEANS anything to him.  It's just so totally different to work with.  I think a lot of people work around poor subitization backgrounds because they can just memorize.  However, with ds and the words not meaning anything, having no -ness for him, there just isn't a way to build with that, kwim?  Spiral can help if you just need more repetition, but it's not going to fill other holes.

 

As for affordability, we've suggested this before to people and they were able to find a way.  If you can find someone to *borrow* the use of an ipad from, that would be an option.  Like maybe a MIL, a friend at church, someone, anyone.  If you could just go over and read the next chapter in the ebook, make your notes, then go teach for the week, you'd be fine.  That's all you need.  It's under $10 for one of the ebooks and it really is your best way to start.  Of course I don't know where she's at.  I have the printed books, all three, but I LOVE the ebooks.  The printed books are not so sequential and idiotproof, but they do have a higher starting point, helpful for a dc with more experience.  On the other hand, if you're filling in really basic things, the ebooks maybe good.  RB just released a free games ebook in iTunes.  

 

So beg/borrow, that would be my recommendation.  Much better than paying $50 for a printed book and realizing you're not happy.  It's just a better starting point.  Then you'll know whether it fits and what you actually need.

 

I don't know if I will find the funds at any point in time soon for the iPad, but you have given me hope that it will make a difference with dd. I'm thinking about doing some of the TOPS books for science. I wonder if they include any math that would help? I remember a base 10 set helping me immensely to understand and really fully grasp math as a child.

[lovinmomma]

Is this for your artistic child?  If so, look up the characteristics of a visual spatial/right brain learner - you just might find that this is where she fits.  After reading what you've tried and that they were used for just a couple of months each - that could be where the wires are crossing in her brain.  Those programs all teach so differently and some more abstractly (is that a word?) that as a result hasn't made any connections in her mind.  If she is VSL/RB you are in the fun and games and long haul.  They need mastery-type math taught in units, so to speak.  A program will seem like it is working and then she'll get bogged down and say it is too hard/too easy.  You'll need a smorgasborg of options to pull from at various types of levels.  Don't drill and don't expect a fast result in spouting off math facts - not going to happen.  She'll need to make connections in her head, usually with pictures, and then move on.  Play games to solidify lessons.  Read those books from the library about math stuff and then do some of the activities.  She'll need time to take breaks to let this stuff connect in her brain.  If she is RB/VSL don't immediately think online content.  Nope, they don't necessarily work better with screen time.  Now I did find some leapster games worked for practice but I never ever told my ds what I was hoping for - nope, let him just enjoy the games.  Perhaps spending some time with the Life of Fred books (start at square one and move at her pace).  MathUSee is great but I've found that as we went along we needed to move quicker and change subjects when he gets bogged down-hard to do in MUS.  Times Tales worked wonders and now they offer a video.  Just watching that a few times and bam, mastered.  Now, that doesn't mean my child is rattling the answers off fast because he has to search through the "rolodex" in his head to find the picture to make the connection and then answers it.  He's able to do advanced math (algebra) but just finished up on fractions and decimals.  I'm coming to the conclusion that teaching a VSL/RB math requires you to make a list of all the concepts and skills that you would like mastered by the end of the year and then work through that list in units. 

Yes, this is for my artsy child. She gets extremely frustrated with math very easily and shuts down if she doesn't understand the concept quickly. :( I have to be very careful not to push in any way. Life of Fred would be fun! DD tends to struggle with remembering what step to do, or she'll forget to read whether it's + or - and then do the problem incorrectly due to forgetting to check. 

[Love_to_Read]

Yes, this is for my artsy child. She gets extremely frustrated with math very easily and shuts down if she doesn't understand the concept quickly. :( I have to be very careful not to push in any way. Life of Fred would be fun! DD tends to struggle with remembering what step to do, or she'll forget to read whether it's + or - and then do the problem incorrectly due to forgetting to check. 

 

Math U See worked well for my child in that it gave her time to master each concept before bringing in the review.  It does have review each week, just not on every page.  She HATED Saxon because of the way the problems skipped from type to type on every single page. She felt like she never had enough time to get the concepts down before it threw something else at her the next day.  And doing just a handful of new problems each day before the lesson devolved into mixed review...it never felt like enough practice on the new item, and felt like some of the review was tedious...that which wasn't dreaded from never having been mastered the day/week/month before. 

 

Math-U-See breaks it down in very small increments, like doing the addition and subtraction fact families one at a time, then learning multi-digit addition without carrying, then with carrying, then subtraction without borrowing, then with borrowing, etc.  And gradually increasing the number of place values.  The sequence is very logical, including miscellaneous topics such as geometry, time, measurement, etc.  They're introduced as close as possible to related concepts...for example, minutes on a clock are introduced shortly after the concept of counting by fives has been mastered.  It's never a huge leap from one lesson to the next.

 

Both of my children who melt down in frustration over getting math wrong tend to do very well with MUS. They still have the occasional bad day when I make them redo a couple problems due to ADHD types of mistakes, but they generally understand the concept from the video and feel like they're being given a fair chance to get it right on the worksheets.  The worksheets aren't long, and have a lot of white space to keep the numbers from crowding together.  For multi-digit problems, though, I print out some graph paper with squares large enough to accommodate their handwriting...that helps keep everything lined up properly.  Still, MUS has the best spacing/font that we've used in general.

 

My child who gets bored easily and masters things quickly tends to skip to the test after only a page or two of practice. My child with dyslexia who struggles more with rote memory tends to do every page just to be sure, and during single-digit multiplication we supplemented a lot of extra practice in every way possible.  But even that child was able to skip through a few lessons quickly at various levels.  We started all the way back in Alpha despite being older, and finished it within a few months, then slowed down in Beta to get the hang of working the problems without forgetting any steps, then crawled through Gamma because of the multiplication facts, then sped back up in Delta surprised to discover that division really isn't so bad after so much hard work in multiplication.  Then fractions and decimals start to get more conceptual, so the rest of the elementary/middle school series isn't so bad.

 

MUS is good about making it all visual/kinesthetic, which is a strength for most dyslexics. 

[lovinmomma]

Thank you very much. I didn't realize that's how Saxon works. Dd would react in much the same way if there were only a few problems before moving on. She needs a decent amount of practice to retain.