OPGTR vs LOE with dyslexia?

[jerrysgal4ever]

Anyone using Ordinary Parent's Guide to Reading with a child who has dyslexia? We have been using Logic of English Foundations with moderate success and we are just finishing level B. I already have the OPGTR but not the LOE level C, and was wondering if it would be okay to switch or better to stick with the LOE?

[Minerva]

I haven't had my youngest tested for dyslexia yet, but everyone else in the family is dyslexic (except me) and it seems fairly obvious at this point that he is following the family tradition. We have been using LOE and enjoying it but it is definitely not enough. It took us all year to get through foundations A and it has been increasingly difficult now that we are in B. He really likes how fun it is and I am loathe to change, but I am constantly having to find ways to beef it up. 

 

I know I am not helping you at all, just curious why you want to change if it is working for you? I am also wondering if you have had to supplement or if it has been enough on its own? I think it's a fantastic program, especially for wiggly kids. It's just a lot of work for me to add enough so that my son grasps the concepts.

[AHASRADA]

I tried OPGTR with my dyslexic dd, and it was definitely not enough, moved too fast, not enough repetition and practice. The explicit and multisensory approach of LOE is absolutely better.

 

If LOE is working, I would stick with it. If it moves too quickly, look into AAR or Dancing Bears.

[MyLittleBears]

Do you have a dyslexia diagnosis?  I am a true believer in O-G programs for dyslexia. My ds is moderately dyslexic and OPGTR was a really bad fit. We also tried LOE, WRTR, SWR and various other programs with him making very little progress. Notice all of these are Orton-Gillingham based but not true O-G programs. The only thing that is actually working is Barton for Reading and Spelling. It actually cleared up some phonemic awareness issue I did not even know he had.  I wish wish wish I had gone with it in the first place it would have saved a lot of time and frustration. 

[jerrysgal4ever]

No, I do not have a formal diagnosis. They are 8 and 9. My 9 yr old is reading around 1st grade level with lots of reversals of letters and also of words (reading the word backwards). He had a hard time with handwriting too until we switched to cursive, now he's doing great with that. We started 2 years ago with AAR and it seemed to move too fast and for some reason I had a hard time with it. This year we started with LOE Essentials and that was way too fast so I switched to LOE Foundations and they both are loving it. We are just about finished with level B doing a lesson a day. The only reason I considered OPGTTR is that I already have it. I will probably continue on with Foundations C since it seems to be working. My son also is working with Fast Forword through Gemm Learning and it seems to be helping. 

I have heard lots of good things about Barton. I am happy with the progress we have made so far. If we get stuck again, that's probably where I will turn next.

[jerrysgal4ever]

...but I don't know much about Dancing Bears??? Anyone use this?

[Heathermomster]

I use LOE foundations with my neurotypical DD.  She is 7 yo and completed Foundations C around March.  We started D and then I set it aside for the summer to just practice reading and to regroup.  Personally, I find the materials simultaneously slow and incomplete at the same time.  As I understand it, Foundations was designed for classroom use.  

 

My DS is dyslexic and worked with a Wilson tutor for 5 years starting when he was in 2nd grade.  I can say firsthand that outside the phonogram sounds, LOE in no way resembles the work that DS did with his Wilson tutor.  After the experiences with my eldest child, I would only recommend a product like Barton, an experienced OG tutor for intense remediative work, or suggest you take a one-two week OG course to learn how to teach your kiddos so that they can receive the most effective and efficient tutoring possible.   ETA:  The course I recommend assumes full testing with an NP, OT, and VT to rule out any other conditions that may be present and could possibly prohibit the effectiveness of any OG program.

[jerrysgal4ever]

 

My DS is dyslexic and worked with a Wilson tutor for 5 years starting when he was in 2nd grade.  I can say firsthand that outside the phonogram sounds, LOE in no way resembles the work that DS did with his Wilson tutor.  After the experiences with my eldest child, I would only recommend a product like Barton, an experienced OG tutor for intense remediative work, or suggest you take a one-two week OG course to learn how to teach your kiddos so that they can receive the most effective and efficient tutoring possible.   ETA:  The course I recommend assumes full testing with an NP, OT, and VT to rule out any other conditions that may be present and could possibly prohibit the effectiveness of any OG program.

Could you give me some idea of how the Wilson/Barton is different? What kinds of things do they do differently? The initial investment for either of these programs would be a challenge. We live very rural with almost no resources, so I am pretty much on my own, and homeschooling several children. They are making progress with the LOE, plus my son is doing Fast Forword via a scholarship. Any opinion on Dancing Bears? 

[Lecka]

They are more explicit, I think.  They are very detailed in what they are doing.  

 

If you are seeing success with LOE, though, I think you have got something that is working!   

 

But if you see that there is a slow-down in progress or anything, I think it is time to go for something that is more intensive, not something that is less intensive.  

 

OPGTR is going to be less intensive as far as I know.  

 

I will just mention, there have been previous threads about how people re-sale their Barton levels and iirc re-sale value is often $50 less than the purchase price -- so even though you would have to pay a lot up front, at least you would be able to turn around and sale your levels later.  

 

 

 

 

[FairProspects]

Neither. IMHO, neither of these are designed for students with dyslexia and more than likely will cause frustration. Barton/Wilson or other OG programs are your best bet.

[Wishes]

Quite a few people on the board use Dancing Bears, you might want check other threads. It could be a great additional program. The recommendation is to do it for ten minutes a day.

[Heathermomster]

Could you give me some idea of how the Wilson/Barton is different? What kinds of things do they do differently? The initial investment for either of these programs would be a challenge. We live very rural with almost no resources, so I am pretty much on my own, and homeschooling several children. They are making progress with the LOE, plus my son is doing Fast Forword via a scholarship. Any opinion on Dancing Bears? 

To teach Wilson, you need to attend an OG course and get certified.  My nearby dyslexia school offers courses.  With Wilson, there are 12 books that you systematically work through, so the program should take about 6 years from start to finish.  You basically adjust to the needs and learning style of the student, so the tutoring is more personalized. 

 

Barton lays everything out for you and is specifically designed for people with no previous experience.  You watch videos that enable you to present the info to your student. You can use Barton with both of your boys, and it has a very good resale value.  

 

I don't know a thing about Fast Forward or Dancing Bears.

[FO4UR]

My opinion, fwiw, and I'm just a homeschool mom with 2 dyslexic kids who figured out how to teach them...and learned a lot along the way.

 

 

If one Spalding Program doesn't work, neither will the 2nd or 3rd....if one O-G program brings marginal results for intensive work, so with the next no matter how much $$$ it cost.  Tutoring is great if you can afford it, however, it's no guarantee that it will work.  An O-G certified tutor will likely stick with O-G no matter what...no matter if it's working or not...  

 

 

Spalding programs are too much too fast for a dyslexic.

 

O-G programs are great for kids who struggle with auditory issues.  Not every dyslexic struggles with the auditory side of things.

 

Dancing Bears (Synthetic Phonics) is better for kids who have lots of visual hang-ups or a mix of the auditory and visual.  Reversals, reading words backwards, mirror writing, inverting things, etc...I'd go with Dancing Bears.  

 

You can google welltrainedmindforums and Dancing Bears and you will find tons of threads about it.  

[jerrysgal4ever]

 

 

Spalding programs are too much too fast for a dyslexic.

 

O-G programs are great for kids who struggle with auditory issues.  Not every dyslexic struggles with the auditory side of things.

 

Dancing Bears (Synthetic Phonics) is better for kids who have lots of visual hang-ups or a mix of the auditory and visual.  Reversals, reading words backwards, mirror writing, inverting things, etc...I'd go with Dancing Bears.  

 

You can google welltrainedmindforums and Dancing Bears and you will find tons of threads about it.  

I am kind of new to the dyslexia world so not sure how auditory issues would present, but my older child is a good listener, good narrater, etc, but has more of the visual issues---reversals of letters and words and fluency problems because of that. 

You all have talked me out of the LOE Foundations C now...I think I may just give the Dancing Bears a try---

Which programs are you referring to when you say "Spalding"? Would that be the OPGTTR? Does the OPGTTR work well for kids without dyslexia? I have a brand new set and a rising 3 year old that I was saving it for but it is not too late to send it back for a refund??

[FairProspects]

My opinion, fwiw, and I'm just a homeschool mom with 2 dyslexic kids who figured out how to teach them...and learned a lot along the way.

 

 

If one Spalding Program doesn't work, neither will the 2nd or 3rd....if one O-G program brings marginal results for intensive work, so with the next no matter how much $$$ it cost.  Tutoring is great if you can afford it, however, it's no guarantee that it will work.  An O-G certified tutor will likely stick with O-G no matter what...no matter if it's working or not...  

 

 

Spalding programs are too much too fast for a dyslexic.

 

O-G programs are great for kids who struggle with auditory issues.  Not every dyslexic struggles with the auditory side of things.

 

Dancing Bears (Synthetic Phonics) is better for kids who have lots of visual hang-ups or a mix of the auditory and visual.  Reversals, reading words backwards, mirror writing, inverting things, etc...I'd go with Dancing Bears.  

 

You can google welltrainedmindforums and Dancing Bears and you will find tons of threads about it.  

 

I respectfully disagree. My dyslexics have both the visual and auditory (with visual being the predominant issue for one - he perfectly mirror writes) and OG has worked well for both of them. Dancing Bears was a total flop here and it would never have been enough for either of my dyslexics (I bought it and sold it). I'm not sure there is much you can do other than trial and error or an evaluation with professional recommendations.

[Heathermomster]

The boys haven't been evaluated yet. I am assuming dyslexia which may or may not be the case.

[AHASRADA]

Just as a clarification on Wilson, you can teach yourself how to use it through studying the manual and watching the demonstration videos (I did ). Both Wilson and Barton are OG programs, the difference is Wilson requires the teacher to learn the system and create your own lesson plans, while Barton is completely planned and scripted. This difference is, of course, reflected in the price of each program.

 

I worked through the entire 12 steps with my dyslexic dc in about 2 1/2 years from ages 8-10, so it does not necessarily have to take 6 years, but the pace does need to be adjusted to the learner, and there are guidelines for the student's mastery of each step before moving onto the next.

 

While OG programs are often best for dyslexics, this is not always the case, depending on the child's learning strengths and challenges. However, I would recommend choosing a program specifically created for dyslexics (Wilson, Barton, AAR, Dancing Bears), but be prepared to switch if the one you chose doesn't work for your child. Best of luck!

[Heathermomster]

Just as a clarification on Wilson, you can teach yourself how to use it through studying the manual and watching the demonstration videos (I did ). Both Wilson and Barton are OG programs, the difference is Wilson requires the teacher to learn the system and create your own lesson plans, while Barton is completely planned and scripted. This difference is, of course, reflected in the price of each program.

 

I worked through the entire 12 steps with my dyslexic dc in about 2 1/2 years from ages 8-10, so it does not necessarily have to take 6 years, but the pace does need to be adjusted to the learner, and there are guidelines for the student's mastery of each step before moving onto the next.

 

While OG programs are often best for dyslexics, this is not always the case, depending on the child's learning strengths and challenges. However, I would recommend choosing a program specifically created for dyslexics (Wilson, Barton, AAR, Dancing Bears), but be prepared to switch if the one you chose doesn't work for your child. Best of luck!

For clarification, how did you purchase your Wilson materials?

[AHASRADA]

For clarification, how did you purchase your Wilson materials?

I purchased them directly from Wilson. You can buy one of several different kit combinations, or buy each item individually.

[FO4UR]

I am kind of new to the dyslexia world so not sure how auditory issues would present, but my older child is a good listener, good narrater, etc, but has more of the visual issues---reversals of letters and words and fluency problems because of that. 

You all have talked me out of the LOE Foundations C now...I think I may just give the Dancing Bears a try---

Which programs are you referring to when you say "Spalding"? Would that be the OPGTTR? Does the OPGTTR work well for kids without dyslexia? I have a brand new set and a rising 3 year old that I was saving it for but it is not too late to send it back for a refund??

 

 

Spalding is The Writing Road to Reading, Spell to Write and Read, Logic of English...

 

 

OPGTR is not really Spalding or O-G, just a simple phonics program.

 

 

 

I respectfully disagree. My dyslexics have both the visual and auditory (with visual being the predominant issue for one - he perfectly mirror writes) and OG has worked well for both of them. Dancing Bears was a total flop here and it would never have been enough for either of my dyslexics (I bought it and sold it). I'm not sure there is much you can do other than trial and error or an evaluation with professional recommendations.

 

 

I used Dancing Bears Fast Track and Book C.

 

My oldest had already been through SWR for a couple of years, Recipe for Reading for a while, and a few other things...all while I was self-educating on how to teach a dyslexic.  We had no $, so tutoring was not an option.  He needed vision therapy, and had some for a while, but again $$$ cut us off from outside help. I was sort of thrown into this.

 

We were playing Happy Phonics, and I was reading aloud to him for 2+ hours every day.  

 

So...there was a TON of other stuff going on for him aside from Dancing Bears.  I agree with you that Dancing Bears is not enough.  That said, he was a 9yo who knew more phonics that any elementary school teacher in town, could quote large portions of RL Stevenson and CS Lewis b/c he simply loved them, and was of above average intelligence in general.  Smart kid.  Bathed in English Literature.  Intensive Instruction in phonics.  Yet he could NOT read a lick!!!  Dancing Bears does SOMETHING that no other program does, and I have a feeling it is like mixing vision therapy with reading instruction.  Yes, you will find dyslexics who do not need intensive work in training the eye to track and decode, but for kids who DO need that I don't think that there is another program out there like it.

 

 

Given that DB is so inexpensive compared to the other options, and many have had success with it, DB simply needs to be on the list of programs to check into.  It's worth a look.

[BlsdMama]

I've used OPGTTR and LOVE it - but not for my dyslexic kiddos.  I used it with moderate success but you would need to tweak, add in, and know HOW to do those things, which IMO, you couldn't do easily without having used an OG program first.

[jerrysgal4ever]

Spalding is The Writing Road to Reading, Spell to Write and Read, Logic of English...

 

 

OPGTR is not really Spalding or O-G, just a simple phonics program.

 

 

 

 

 

I used Dancing Bears Fast Track and Book C.

 

My oldest had already been through SWR for a couple of years, Recipe for Reading for a while, and a few other things...all while I was self-educating on how to teach a dyslexic.  We had no $, so tutoring was not an option.  He needed vision therapy, and had some for a while, but again $$$ cut us off from outside help. I was sort of thrown into this.

 

We were playing Happy Phonics, and I was reading aloud to him for 2+ hours every day.  

 

So...there was a TON of other stuff going on for him aside from Dancing Bears.  I agree with you that Dancing Bears is not enough.  That said, he was a 9yo who knew more phonics that any elementary school teacher in town, could quote large portions of RL Stevenson and CS Lewis b/c he simply loved them, and was of above average intelligence in general.  Smart kid.  Bathed in English Literature.  Intensive Instruction in phonics.  Yet he could NOT read a lick!!!  Dancing Bears does SOMETHING that no other program does, and I have a feeling it is like mixing vision therapy with reading instruction.  Yes, you will find dyslexics who do not need intensive work in training the eye to track and decode, but for kids who DO need that I don't think that there is another program out there like it.

 

 

Given that DB is so inexpensive compared to the other options, and many have had success with it, DB simply needs to be on the list of programs to check into.  It's worth a look.

I am very encouraged by your post. Your son reminds me of my own- he loves learning, audiobooks, etc. He has a beautiful hardcover edition of King Arthur on his shelf that he so wants to be able to read. (He is 9) Last year we tried AAR/AAS with minimal success. (I was very disappointed with the AAR readers...) This year we started with LOE Essentials and that was WAY too fast so we switched to Foundations and got almost to the end of level B but both kids are starting to slow down with it so I can see where we could run into trouble in level C. 

DB just looks like a good fit. It looks non-threatening, and after looking over the stories, the beer, the dress that a lot of people have commented on, I actually love it! I can hear him giggling already! He has just that sense of humor. It looks so much more age appropriate than all the phonics-controlled readers, IYKWIM. 

I have officially ordered the Fast Track as well as Apples and Pears...I think they are both going to like it!

[jerrysgal4ever]

I've used OPGTTR and LOVE it - but not for my dyslexic kiddos.  I used it with moderate success but you would need to tweak, add in, and know HOW to do those things, which IMO, you couldn't do easily without having used an OG program first.

Thanks for this info! I have figured out by the previous posts that this was not the way to go with these two kids, but I am definitely going to keep it for my 3 year old book-a-holic!

[ElizabethB]

I would start with Recipe for Reading, it is the cheapest OG method and all you need is the manual if you write the words on the white board. You might be beyond most of it by now but the techniques should help, especially for the price. You can use the techniques with any good phonics method.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Recipe-Reading-Revised-Expanded-Traub/dp/0838805051/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421524413&sr=1-1&keywords=recipe+for+reading

[FO4UR]

I am very encouraged by your post. Your son reminds me of my own- he loves learning, audiobooks, etc. He has a beautiful hardcover edition of King Arthur on his shelf that he so wants to be able to read. (He is 9) Last year we tried AAR/AAS with minimal success. (I was very disappointed with the AAR readers...) This year we started with LOE Essentials and that was WAY too fast so we switched to Foundations and got almost to the end of level B but both kids are starting to slow down with it so I can see where we could run into trouble in level C. 

DB just looks like a good fit. It looks non-threatening, and after looking over the stories, the beer, the dress that a lot of people have commented on, I actually love it! I can hear him giggling already! He has just that sense of humor. It looks so much more age appropriate than all the phonics-controlled readers, IYKWIM. 

I have officially ordered the Fast Track as well as Apples and Pears...I think they are both going to like it!

 

 

He sounds like a delightful kiddo!

 

On a related note:  He may enjoy using Dragon Naturally Speaking to work on composition.  If he loves King Arthur, I bet he loves telling stories.  He can log those down without having to spell or write with Dragon.

[jerrysgal4ever]

He sounds like a delightful kiddo!

 

On a related note:  He may enjoy using Dragon Naturally Speaking to work on composition.  If he loves King Arthur, I bet he loves telling stories.  He can log those down without having to spell or write with Dragon.

He's really gotten into drawing his stories---he's getting pretty good at it. I will have to look into the Dragon Naturally Speaking. I would imagine seeing his own words in print would inspire him to read them too! Sounds like a win-win!

[ElizabethB]

Here are some ideas for working with muti-syllable words. All of my remedial students have been helped by Webster's Speller.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

[mommy5]

I used LOE last year and I did like it.  After a while, we did switch to something else.  We currently use Phonetic Zoo for Spelling, Read Naturally for Fluency.  I wrote about what we used in a review: here.  I hope that helps.  We've used both O-G and phonographix.  

[Gilina]

No, I do not have a formal diagnosis. They are 8 and 9. My 9 yr old is reading around 1st grade level with lots of reversals of letters and also of words (reading the word backwards). He had a hard time with handwriting too until we switched to cursive, now he's doing great with that. We started 2 years ago with AAR and it seemed to move too fast and for some reason I had a hard time with it. This year we started with LOE Essentials and that was way too fast so I switched to LOE Foundations and they both are loving it. We are just about finished with level B doing a lesson a day. The only reason I considered OPGTTR is that I already have it. I will probably continue on with Foundations C since it seems to be working. My son also is working with Fast Forword through Gemm Learning and it seems to be helping. 

I have heard lots of good things about Barton. I am happy with the progress we have made so far. If we get stuck again, that's probably where I will turn next.

 

Maybe consider moving to Logic of English Essentials as it's designed for older kids?  I started it with my 10 year old (dyslexic) a few months ago and we're already seeing progress.  I pace slowly with him and the work is challenging, but he love it.....unlike everything else I've done with him, when I say it's time to do English, he's actually happy now!  I've been extending the lessons with the more challenging spelling lists that are posted online, so rather than a few days, each lesson is taking a week.  I also started Rhythm of Handwriting Cursive - and really like the approach as almost all letters start at the baseline, which for dyslexics is so helpful with their writing.  We're doing Logic of English in parallel with Reading Horizons, which is great for decoding skills!  With both of those and reading out loud daily his reading is improving each week, as is his confidence with reading.

[Gilina]

I am very encouraged by your post. Your son reminds me of my own- he loves learning, audiobooks, etc. He has a beautiful hardcover edition of King Arthur on his shelf that he so wants to be able to read. (He is 9) Last year we tried AAR/AAS with minimal success. (I was very disappointed with the AAR readers...) This year we started with LOE Essentials and that was WAY too fast so we switched to Foundations and got almost to the end of level B but both kids are starting to slow down with it so I can see where we could run into trouble in level C. 

DB just looks like a good fit. It looks non-threatening, and after looking over the stories, the beer, the dress that a lot of people have commented on, I actually love it! I can hear him giggling already! He has just that sense of humor. It looks so much more age appropriate than all the phonics-controlled readers, IYKWIM. 

I have officially ordered the Fast Track as well as Apples and Pears...I think they are both going to like it!

 

Audiobooks are so important - you can go to Audible.com and order the audiobook that matches his copy of King Arthur and let him read with the audio.  I have my son use audiobooks frequently.  There are online programs also - like Learning Ally - where you can get their textbooks in audio versions so they can read along with the audio - at older grades that significantly reduces the time I have to read to him and gives him a lot of independence to get his work done.