Punctuation, capitalization type help for 8th grader. UPDATE in original post..Test results came in

[Cottonwood]

DS12, finishing up 7th grade, first year back to homeschooling.  Was hs'd for 1st and 2nd, public schooled from 3rd thru 6th.  

 

I am pretty exasperated.  DS is still making huge errors in punctuation and capitalization.  I have tried everything.  I even stopped all lessons earlier this year and did a small booklet full of worksheets and instruction I printed off from various online sites.  He's always sort of forgotten a period here and there but in the last 2 yrs more and more errors are happening.  In public school they didn't even correct his work when it happened.    :glare:  Anyway, I keep grades for him and being a straight A student seems super-important to him.  I count points off for this sort of stuff and this grading period, he is earning his first B's in Language Arts in years SOLEY because of the points lost on this sort of stuff, per paper.  He's so upset, but we talked about it all year, and he was aware of how these mistakes were affecting his overall grade.  Still, there is no improvement.   :huh:   Overall this year he has turned in 7 major writing assignments like essays, long narratives, myth writing and long poems.  Every one has  loads of these errors.

 

He just turned in a BEAUTIFULLY done piece of writing to end a unit last week and in every way, he earned an A+++++++!  Writing is hard for him and he's overcome many obstacles to produce such work.  The grade that he actually got was an 83% because of the amount of punctuation and cap. errors.  He didn't even capitalize the TITLE!!???  There was dialogue without quotations, even.   Ug!  

 

I want to think maturity might have something do with it.  Until this point in the year I wanted the focus to be on the writing aspect itself because it certainly was the BIGGER obstacle, while continuing to improve the grammar portion of course.  Welp, he has succeeded on the first goal and we've celebrated that and continue to do so.  But this other thing ..I don't know what to do with it.

 

Should I give a language arts grade to only reflect the writing and begin to issue a grammar grade to separate the two so that he sees his progress or lack of separately?  Should I buy a different workbook/book..should I go about this a different way? Should I just keep working with him on this (how?) and not make a big deal?  It feels like a big deal.. LOL  He has one more year with JUST me  before he is in high school under different teachers (online).  It just seems like this should be on the upswing before....high school??!!    I just can't see him turning in essays as a freshman where the title has some capitals, some lower cases letters...  oy!

 

ETA:  I think part of the problem is   that I'm not entirely sure where the problem lies. lol  I think...or thought...he knows the cap and punct rules.  Some days he seems to.  Most days, that is not the case.  When we discuss it, he seems irritated that I am reminding him of it at all and says, "I know all this?!?".  Ok, really?  Before he finally turns something in, I ask him to do one more check for capitalization and punctuation.  He goes over it, corrects nothing, hands it in and there are massive, seemingly simple errors, then he seems *shocked* that he got points deducted.  This feels like the Pre-Alg errors he was making for about 8 months at one time.  He knew the concepts but kept getting the answers wrong.  That finally worked itself out.  Wondering if this will also.  

 

 

UPDATE:  

My kids take the PASS test every year and today I got DS's results back.   I wanted to share his Language results as it relates to this conversation:

 

Went up a testing level this year.  Last year, he got 60% of the test questions right, this year 33%!?  They want to see at least 50% for an average score.  He was in the 69% last year among homeschoolers tested by Hewitt, this year in the 31st percentile.   :(  Last year, at 90% nationally, this year, 69%.  Last year, overall performance ranked high in Language, this year, ranked High-Avg.   RIT score ..showing his amount of growth in a year... is down 6 points and is lower than what they suggest at this level. :(

 

They gave some recommendations for this year to provide practice in spelling, capitalization, punctuation and composition. DOH!  lol  Thanks for the suggestions in this thread.  He's already doing daily practice from some of the suggestions here.  I'm not happy, but not alarmed, by the fact that his overall...everything...is down.  Obviously, one reason I wanted to homeschool him is to help him do BETTER.   :confused:   So I'm a bit discouraged today, but I'm going to keep him practicing and look for a better result next year.  

[Reefgazer]

So, my DD is the same age as your DS, and with the same problems and a similar history. DD's particular weaknesses are punctuation/capitalization and spelling. I have had next to no success in bringing up her spelling scores and am still working on that. However, the punctuation capitalization test scores (IOWA) greatly improved when I used Editor in Chief and Rod and Staff English.

[Cottonwood]

So, my DD is the same age as your DS, and with the same problems and a similar history. DD's particular weaknesses are punctuation/capitalization and spelling. I have had next to no success in bringing up her spelling scores and am still working on that. However, the punctuation capitalization test scores (IOWA) greatly improved when I used Editor in Chief and Rod and Staff English.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions.  Checking out Editor In Chief now.  Should I look at his grade level...I feel like I should start with the earliest book.....for 2nd graders. LOL  No joke.  

 

Interestingly, he had huge spelling errors early in the year that he seemed to iron out on his own once I insisted he sit with a dictionary next to him.  Every time I found misspelled words, I'd underline it and point to the dictionary.  BOY did he HATE THAT.  He had to make spelling corrections during his 1 hr of screen time.  Sometimes he'd get only 10 minutes of screen time after all spelling corrections.  Now I see that he grabs it on his own and starts checking things over beforehand.  Now if I can find that magical key to motivation with the cap. and punct issue....  He still has to make those corrections during screen time but the corrections go faster.  Still, after 9 months, there are AS MANY or MORE to correct than at the beginning of the year. :/ 

 

Still listening to suggestions!!...........

[Farrar]

I don't think worksheets help much with this. My kids aren't great about it either in their own writing but they can clear a worksheet on it with no problems. Easy peasy. Applying it on the other hand... Well, that's another story.

 

Dictation. I think that's the best way to practice it. It's why we're upping how much we do.

 

Also, while mechanics are important, they're really a final add on. There are so, so many things that are so much more important about writing. It's frustrating when bad habits are formed and it's good to be on top of fixing them, but I wouldn't completely freak out. I taught middle school for a long time and many, many kids make piles of mechanics errors at this age. It's not so unusual. And they get better mostly.

[OneStepAtATime]

Can you have him do rough drafts just mainly focused on getting the ideas down then have him go back through with a typed out checklist of things to go back and look for/correct? Then maybe review it again together? Does he type?

[Cottonwood]

Can you have him do rough drafts just mainly focused on getting the ideas down then have him go back through with a typed out checklist of things to go back and look for/correct? Then maybe review it again together? Does he type?

 

 

He does type; all of his writing work is typed out.  I think typing is one huge reason why his attitude and effort toward the writing processed has improved at all.

 

His work always includes a typed rough draft in which I only quickly scan, no correcting, and then he works on editing afterwards. The curriculum he uses leads him through prompts and writing organizers of various types. He has revision prompts that the curriculum always includes.  I thought he was using that list.  During our discussions toward the end of the process he talks about the revision list.  He works independently on this part of the process but I could have him make little marks on each type of revision made on that list just so that I can see he has been checking in on the list and it's helping him catch errors.  Sometimes I send him back with the list alongside his work to do a last check before my rubric gets pulled out.  He takes it and comes back and says he's checked it.  I've been taking his word for using this particular list because he is so emphatic that he knows how to use it and how to edit.  I could insist he use it more like a list to check off instead of just referring to it.

[OneStepAtATime]

It sounds like he really does need more support. Maybe help him break up the process into smaller chunks? And yes, I would separate out the grade for content vs. Grammar and punctuation. Honestly, it can be really challenging to remember each and every thing to check for and if there is a lot of writing to correct that can be overwhelming.

 

Also, there may be an emotional component involved. If this is a hard area for him and it has become an issue and he sees checking now almost as a punishment, a negative, that may be a big hurdle to get past. I would almost suggest trying for a reset. Stop grading off for those things and work more collaboratively on this. Make it a team effort with a ton of possitive reinforcement. Get him associating corrections with a possitive necessary process, not something he is really bad at. He may feel internally like he is a failure and be somewhat defensive.

 

 

Good luck OP.

[Junie]

 

 

His work always includes a typed rough draft in which I only quickly scan, no correcting, and then he works on editing afterwards. 

 

This is the part of your post that caught my attention.

 

*Disclaimer:  I was a high school English teacher.  (I sound like I'm at an AA meeting.) :)

 

iirc, I have always heavily corrected the rough draft.  I don't understand the purpose of a rough draft if the teacher doesn't do anything with it.  :huh:   I think of it as an author turning in a manuscript.  The students are the authors; I am the editor.  It is my job to tell them how to improve their manuscript.

 

After dc make corrections, then I re-correct the final copy and take off points for whatever they failed to correct.

 

 

 

ihth

[Cottonwood]

It sounds like he really does need more support. Maybe help him break up the process into smaller chunks? And yes, I would separate out the grade for content vs. Grammar and punctuation. Honestly, it can be really challenging to remember each and every thing to check for and if there is a lot of writing to correct that can be overwhelming.

 

Also, there may be an emotional component involved. If this is a hard area for him and it has become an issue and he sees checking now almost as a punishment, a negative, that may be a big hurdle to get past. I would almost suggest trying for a reset. Stop grading off for those things and work more collaboratively on this. Make it a team effort with a ton of possitive reinforcement. Get him associating corrections with a possitive necessary process, not something he is really bad at. He may feel internally like he is a failure and be somewhat defensive.

 

 

Good luck OP.

 

In all of his schooling I see where emotionally maturing would do him a BIG favor.  This included.  For this issue, it's not so much the checking being a punishment, but he tells me the entire writing process is punishment. LOL  I am hopeful that because I've seen a huge increase in willingness to write as he's learned to type, that his maturity is also increasing and will help this issue.  I've seen huge improvement in his handwriting and a couple of other things that weren't strong points for him, that needed extra concentration.  Something that I'm seeing is that, I probably do need to be collaborative with him.  He is really insistent that he can be completely independent in this process so I've adjusted how I'd normally instruct something like this to allow for that.  I'm still very involved, but once he sits down for the final pieces, he likes very much to be isolated in his thoughts and area.  He says it's not easy for him and the isolation helps him concentrate.  He's on the other side of the living room in or in the kitchen, so I'm around him.  But he doesn't like me over his shoulder at any point or sitting next to him.  His newly into puberty and showing a ton of independence suddenly.  Soo....hormones are probably a part of this type of thing, too.  :mellow:  :laugh:

 

This is the part of your post that caught my attention.

 

*Disclaimer:  I was a high school English teacher.  (I sound like I'm at an AA meeting.) :)

 

iirc, I have always heavily corrected the rough draft.  I don't understand the purpose of a rough draft if the teacher doesn't do anything with it.  :huh:   I think of it as an author turning in a manuscript.  The students are the authors; I am the editor.  It is my job to tell them how to improve their manuscript.

 

After dc make corrections, then I re-correct the final copy and take off points for whatever they failed to correct.

 

 

 

ihth

 

With the rough draft, a couple of things:  He says he doesn't want me to correct it, just look at it.  I'm not sure why, myself. LOL  Because writing has been such an issue with him, I've allowed him to make some decisions on his own about how to proceed with a few things.  This is working against him somewhat and I've corrected those things, but I think the rough draft could be? one more place I can tweak it to help him out.  I like the idea of correcting it myself sometimes but the curriculum he uses is also directed to the student and prompts them to revise their rough draft themselves, using the revision list provided (which is pretty extensive).  I'll see what he says about switching it up some.  BUT I am a little hesitant yet, only b/c the curriculum spends a good bit of time teaching them how to edit and revise on their own.  It's almost like I'd be doing that part of his school work since the lessons instruct him to do it and how to proceed on his own.  Still thinking on it...... thanks for the suggestion!

[OneStepAtATime]

Good luck, OP.  

[Junie]

he tells me the entire writing process is punishment. LOL  

 

 

 

With the rough draft, a couple of things:  He says he doesn't want me to correct it, just look at it.  I'm not sure why, myself. LOL  Because writing has been such an issue with him, I've allowed him to make some decisions on his own about how to proceed with a few things.  This is working against him somewhat and I've corrected those things, but I think the rough draft could be? one more place I can tweak it to help him out.  I like the idea of correcting it myself sometimes but the curriculum he uses is also directed to the student and prompts them to revise their rough draft themselves, using the revision list provided (which is pretty extensive).  I'll see what he says about switching it up some.  BUT I am a little hesitant yet, only b/c the curriculum spends a good bit of time teaching them how to edit and revise on their own.  It's almost like I'd be doing that part of his school work since the lessons instruct him to do it and how to proceed on his own.  Still thinking on it...... thanks for the suggestion!

 

It sounds like your ds and my ds have the same opinion on writing!

 

Some of my dc are reluctant to have me look at their work.  (I was a copy editor in college before I was a teacher, so I can get a bit heavy-handed with the red ink.)  I don't count off for every mistake; I just point them out so that their writing can improve.

 

One thing that I have told my dc (which I *think* has been helpful) is that I only know of one writer whose work did not go through an editor:  Dr. Seuss.  Nobody is a perfect writer; every writer needs an editor.

[Junie]

 I like the idea of correcting it myself sometimes but the curriculum he uses is also directed to the student and prompts them to revise their rough draft themselves, using the revision list provided (which is pretty extensive).  I'll see what he says about switching it up some.  BUT I am a little hesitant yet, only b/c the curriculum spends a good bit of time teaching them how to edit and revise on their own.  It's almost like I'd be doing that part of his school work since the lessons instruct him to do it and how to proceed on his own.  Still thinking on it...... thanks for the suggestion!

 

I forgot to comment on this part.

 

I don't know what the revision list looks like; but it sounds like he might need something more specific.

 

Check for capitalization errors.

Check for proper punctuation at the end of the sentence.

Check for proper quotation marks.

 

I think that self-editing is the goal (and I would definitely work toward that), but I think that 8th grade is maybe too young for that.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I also have a DS who is horrible at punctuation, capitalization, and spelling.  I have him print out rough drafts then we go through and find the mistakes.  He then takes the marked draft to work on a final.  DS is dyslexic and dysgraphic so anything not typed I don't even worry about, it irritates me and I might point it out but I don't mark off.  You might try Fix IT Grammar, Ds hates it but I think it's helped him recognize his mistakes.

[OneStepAtATime]

Fix-It Grammar is working well here, too. DD is also dyslexic and punctuation and grammar, etc., were hard for her. Love Fix-It. (New version, not old).

[RootAnn]

You might try Fix IT Grammar

 

I'd suggest this or the previously suggested Editor in Chief. It can really help them recognize their errors and is fairly independent.

 

Do you grade to a rubric? I just wanted to say that I'd limit his grade dropping for grammar (punctuation, capitalization) to a certain number of points per lesson (5% max, for example). He still has to fix them all, but it won't drop an A paper to a B or C if that's all that is wrong. 

 

Good luck!

[Lori D.]

Perhaps on the revision copy, just mark a little arrow in the margin pointing to each line of type where there is a punctuation or capitalization error. Two arrows together if there are two errors. Etc. Or, if he makes more than just punctuation/capitalization errors, mark with proof-editing marks in the margin next to the line where the error occurs, and hand back his paper along with a proof reading marks page. That gives him a bit of support/direction (pointing him to where there is a problem), without hovering or telling him what to do, and it's up to him to look more closely to find the errors are and correct them.

 

Another proofing practice program (a bit like Fix It or Editor in Chief) is The Chortling Bard (a paragraph a day, with each paragraph adding to a version of a Shakespeare parody).

[basketcase]

One more option is Daily Paragraph Editing by Evan-Moor. I've seen big improvements in my kids' mistakes since we've added this into the school day. One of my kids just isn't focused on details. She gets concepts easily, but isn't interested in doing things perfectly (math, piano, I'm talking about you). The daily paragraph editing is fun for her because it teaches the real editing symbols. All my kids like it.

 

I learned this kind of editing, and also editing out be-verbs and passive voice, by doing a lot of peer editing. One of my school teachers loved a workshop style class. We'd have an assignment ready, then pass it back to be edited by a classmate, then pass it back again. It gave us the opportunity to practice editing without having to do all the writing ourselves. A small group, whether in person or online, could help with this.

 

Ultimately, the ideas are so much more important than the errors. I agree that it could either be a separate grade or a small part of the total. Or you could completely separate the two for a time and give an editing grade based on editor in chief or daily paragraph editing or something similar, but give his errors a pass on his writing for a while. You could gradually add in items that would be graded - like only capitalization at first, then proper quotations, etc.

[EKS]

Have him go over all of his writing specifically for capitalization and punctuation errors (and have him do each one separately).  You will have to sit with him the first *many* times to force him to look at each sentence very carefully.  And in the beginning you can tell him how many errors he is looking for in each sentence.

 

If you think he needs to practice the rules, Hake Grammar is good for this.

[DragonFaerie]

My DS has the same problems.  I'm starting to use Daily Paragraph Editing with him to help teach him to notice these things.  We haven't done it long enough to know if it works, yet, but I have high hopes.

[DragonFaerie]

One thing that Daily Paragraph Editing does that you could easily do with the rough drafts is mark how many errors you found of each type. When we use it, I tell them how many errors to look for. Since the curriculum you use already has an extensive checklist, I would use that to count the errors and then have him go through the process on his own. Knowing there are 5 capitalization errors on his paper might make it easier for him to focus on finding all of the errors and keep you out of it. 

 

 

 

This is what I do with DS and Daily Paragraph Editing.  He goes through the paragraph by himself first.  Then I go through it and tell him what he missed, ie. 3 capitalizations, 2 commas, 1 apostrophe, etc.  If he can't find everything after a second try, we look it over sentence by sentence together.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm guessing this is not uncommon at all.  My older kid is a decent writer, but he will just sometimes not notice the silliest things even though he knows most of the rules. 

 

You could try having him do editing practice in general (get some sort of editing practice book).  Another idea is to come up with a revision checklist.  And another is to just let him keep revising until he has gotten it.  I see nothing wrong with that.  At this point he is still learning to pay attention to all of these things.

 

Mine is typing most things these days so it's not a big deal for him to make revisions.  If your kid is typing no issue there.  If not, make him do the first draft by hand (I often still do this with him too) and then let him type it and revise that.  If he can't type, you can type it in as is for him (I do this for my younger kid). 

 

 

[Cottonwood]

bump for update in original post

[Reefgazer]

Keep eating the punctuation elephant one bite at a time, and keep in mind that this is one test on one day and a whole host of things can affect scores. The real results come in seeing patterns over time.

 

 

DS12, finishing up 7th grade, first year back to homeschooling. Was hs'd for 1st and 2nd, public schooled from 3rd thru 6th.

 

I am pretty exasperated. DS is still making huge errors in punctuation and capitalization. I have tried everything. I even stopped all lessons earlier this year and did a small booklet full of worksheets and instruction I printed off from various online sites. He's always sort of forgotten a period here and there but in the last 2 yrs more and more errors are happening. In public school they didn't even correct his work when it happened. :glare: Anyway, I keep grades for him and being a straight A student seems super-important to him. I count points off for this sort of stuff and this grading period, he is earning his first B's in Language Arts in years SOLEY because of the points lost on this sort of stuff, per paper. He's so upset, but we talked about it all year, and he was aware of how these mistakes were affecting his overall grade. Still, there is no improvement. :huh: Overall this year he has turned in 7 major writing assignments like essays, long narratives, myth writing and long poems. Every one has loads of these errors.

 

He just turned in a BEAUTIFULLY done piece of writing to end a unit last week and in every way, he earned an A+++++++! Writing is hard for him and he's overcome many obstacles to produce such work. The grade that he actually got was an 83% because of the amount of punctuation and cap. errors. He didn't even capitalize the TITLE!!??? There was dialogue without quotations, even. Ug!

 

I want to think maturity might have something do with it. Until this point in the year I wanted the focus to be on the writing aspect itself because it certainly was the BIGGER obstacle, while continuing to improve the grammar portion of course. Welp, he has succeeded on the first goal and we've celebrated that and continue to do so. But this other thing ..I don't know what to do with it.

 

Should I give a language arts grade to only reflect the writing and begin to issue a grammar grade to separate the two so that he sees his progress or lack of separately? Should I buy a different workbook/book..should I go about this a different way? Should I just keep working with him on this (how?) and not make a big deal? It feels like a big deal.. LOL He has one more year with JUST me before he is in high school under different teachers (online). It just seems like this should be on the upswing before....high school??!! I just can't see him turning in essays as a freshman where the title has some capitals, some lower cases letters... oy!

 

ETA: I think part of the problem is that I'm not entirely sure where the problem lies. lol I think...or thought...he knows the cap and punct rules. Some days he seems to. Most days, that is not the case. When we discuss it, he seems irritated that I am reminding him of it at all and says, "I know all this?!?". Ok, really? Before he finally turns something in, I ask him to do one more check for capitalization and punctuation. He goes over it, corrects nothing, hands it in and there are massive, seemingly simple errors, then he seems *shocked* that he got points deducted. This feels like the Pre-Alg errors he was making for about 8 months at one time. He knew the concepts but kept getting the answers wrong. That finally worked itself out. Wondering if this will also.

 

 

UPDATE:

My kids take the PASS test every year and today I got DS's results back. I wanted to share his Language results as it relates to this conversation:

 

Went up a testing level this year. Last year, he got 60% of the test questions right, this year 33%!? They want to see at least 50% for an average score. He was in the 69% last year among homeschoolers tested by Hewitt, this year in the 31st percentile. :( Last year, at 90% nationally, this year, 69%. Last year, overall performance ranked high in Language, this year, ranked High-Avg. RIT score ..showing his amount of growth in a year... is down 6 points and is lower than what they suggest at this level. :(

 

They gave some recommendations for this year to provide practice in spelling, capitalization, punctuation and composition. DOH! lol Thanks for the suggestions in this thread. He's already doing daily practice from some of the suggestions here. I'm not happy, but not alarmed, by the fact that his overall...everything...is down. Obviously, one reason I wanted to homeschool him is to help him do BETTER. :confused: So I'm a bit discouraged today, but I'm going to keep him practicing and look for a better result next year.

[RootAnn]

I bet if I researched middle school test scores, there would be a decline in test scores for everyone over those years. 

 

Since all kids mature at different rates, I would assume that overall test scores (% vs. normed group) will stay roughly the same. The kids who are going through the brain fog will show a dip & then level back off after that, yes? I know a lot of people on here talk about how not much new material is introduced during the middle school years. I really think the puberty brain fog contributes to the idea we shouldn't introduce too much new during this time. (Obviously, some kids go through this more than others.)

 

Keep fighting the good fight, OP. You'll see results if you keep working on it.  :grouphug:

[Cottonwood]

Thank you so much for the encouragement, ladies.  I forgot to mention that in math and reading he was tested at the highest level they offer, he is a new 12 yr old, would be in 6th grade by age, but testing at 8th grade levels and all his other results were in the 99th percentile for homeschooled AND national averages.  So, in the biggest picture, he is doing AMAZING.  His math skills stun me.   I agree that this is his "one thing at a time" thing right now.  Yes, the brain fog getting in the way and the attention to detail is seriously out the window in all areas of his life and THIS issue is ALL about the details.  No wonder ...poor guy. lol

[kiwik]

I did read a checklist once that said, Check each sentence has a period, touch each period etc. I tried it an the touching did seem to help. If he did that with just the capitals and the periods and it worked it would make a big difference.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I forgot to comment on this part.

 

I don't know what the revision list looks like; but it sounds like he might need something more specific.

 

Check for capitalization errors.

Check for proper punctuation at the end of the sentence.

Check for proper quotation marks.

 

I think that self-editing is the goal (and I would definitely work toward that), but I think that 8th grade is maybe too young for that.

 

I think perhaps even more specifics would help.  Maybe with a short model.  I did something like this when my kids were having problems with knowing what to do when I said they needed to check their work in math.  I gave some very specific steps to go over.  In time the steps became more concise and were eventually dropped altogether.

 

Check for capitalization errors.

First word of sentences

First word of quotations

Proper nouns (Mrs. Smith, Pacific Ocean, House of Representatives, They Might Be Giants)

 

Check for proper punctuation at the end of the sentence.

 

Check for proper quotation marks.

Is the final punctuation of the quotation inside the quotation mark?  

Is the quotation set apart from the tag line by a comma?  (He said, "Let's go for ice cream."  "Not before dinner," she replied.)

 

For my kids, I'd add another one about comma usage and when to use a semi-colon instead of a comma.

[Arcadia]

Get him to type his final written work into Microsoft Word or any word processing software. Treat it as typing/keyboarding work.

Get him to run grammar check. The grammar check would spot all the common errors. Whether you want him to make changes on his written work or the typed version is up to you.

 

Sometimes it is hard to notice errors after reading the same draft a few times.