Really torn between Writing With Skill 1 and English Lessons Through Literature 4 or 5.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Dd12 is going into the 7th grade this fall.  For writing she has completed WWE 1-3, did one year of IEW, will have completed Essentials in Writing by August, and writes summaries in science, history and literature.  She also can do a two level outline.  For grammar she has completed season 1 of Analytical Gramamr.

 

We had planned to start WWS the beginning of 6th, but it was a little advanced for her so decided to go with EiW since I needed something non-teacher intensive for this past year.  EiW served it's purpose this year but I don't want to continue with it because, while she did the work, it is not at all inspiring or interesting and I don't feel that it gave her enough practice to really perfect what she learned. Same with AG...it got the job done but it wouldn't hurt dd's feelings to put it on the shelf.  

 

So, for 7th,  I had thought to continue AG in addition to starting WWS but now I'm looking at ELtL more closely for her (ds did parts of 2 this year and will be doing 3 next year while dd6 will be starting 1). I love the incorporation of the literature and see that both 4 and 5 start with written lit responses...something dd as not done yet. I also like the addition of poetry, copywork\dictation, and picture study.  All things that I know are valuable but would not pull individually into our lineup unless they are part of a program.  

 

I'm not able to get a sense of how the writing instruction in WWS compares to that in ELtL though and worry that she is beyond the instruction in ELtL 4 or 5 although I do think she would enjoy that program more than WWS.  I also worry about getting her writing skills where they need to be at least by 10th.  By then I want her to have the basics of essay writing down and be able to focus composition instruction on perfecting a thesis and lengthier research papers. 

 

So, can anyone compare WWS 1 with ELiL 4 or 5, or give any insight into which program you think would be best for us to move to?

[LJPPKGFGSC]

I have, and use both Writing with Skill (WWS) and English Lessons through Literature (ELtL).  They are not the same at all.

 

(By the way, both authors are on here, so they might have opinions too.) And I really like both of the books, but they are different, so I use them both.

 

In my opinion, ELTL is primarily a grammar program.  The way that it teaches grammar is by pulling examples from classic literature. There is a repeating pattern of lessons through a two-week rotation, with lessons only three days a week.  That is explained in the introduction.  It is on page 188 if you have the complete sample that is 233 pages long.  So each week, the student will be writing twice, once at the end of each week.  In many of these lessons, even in level five, the assignment could be completed with a one paragraph essay.  The instructions for each writing assignment are sometimes just a paragraph long. Each assignment is distinct, there are no writing assignments that carry over from one day to the next. The strength of this curriculum is the examples that the students are reading examples of good writing.  So writing well is a outgrowth of understanding grammar.

 

But WWS gives very detailed instruction on what to write.  There are many more writing assignments given.  The instructions for even a one paragraph essay can take pages and there is a rubric given in the teacher guide.  WWS tells the student how many words, how many paragraphs, and what words to include (for example time and space words).  It mentions what grammatical errors to notice (for example antecedents) but does not teach that skill.  The strength of this curriculum is scientific and historical writing, although the literary analysis is also very good.  But it teaches the students to look at an essay in blocks and out them together to make an interesting essay on an academic topic. So writing well in WWS is a more of a process of finding and arranging your information.

 

But, I use and really like both of these books!

 

In your case, I would use WWS for a rising 7th grader, particularly one who will be going to school. I think that it would be better challenge and more likely to help her excel in school.  

 

However I am supposed to be doing school right now, so I will end my comments.  I know that I have just scratched the surface in this answer.  If you ask more specific questions, I will watch this thread to answer them!

 

 

[VANURSEPRAC]

I just got the WWSI student workbook in the mail. WOW it is very detailed. I showed it to my D12 (who will be in 7th grade).  Her eyes were huge. It looks a bit daunting. However, I love how detailed it is. My D12 does very well with structure and details. I think it will be a good fit. She will be in the WWS I Delayed course this fall. Eager to the growth in her writing skill.

 

She is in public school.

[TracyP]

Oh my, this is a tough call! If you look at the end goal, these programs seem similar. They both cover one and two level outlining, scientific narrative, historical narrative, description, literary analysis, writing with a slant, copia, and I'm sure more that I'm missing.

 

In WWS you will also find: using a thesaurus, note taking, biographical sketch, documentation, and combining different forms (description and biographical sketch) into 1 paper.

 

In ELTL you will get: introductions and conclusions (plus grammar, copywork, dictation, poetry, and picture study)

 

So both will get you pretty close to the same point by the end of the year. The difference is how they get you there. The instruction in WWS is much more explicit. My biggest frustration with ELTL is the lack of clear guidelines on the writing assignments. My dd will try to get away with one sentence answers when possible, and ELTL sometimes makes that possible. On the plus side, the teaching is very gentle with wonderful models in ELTL.

 

2 years ago my dd used the first 26 weeks of WWS (with a bit of tweaking since she was so young). This year she used the first half of ELTL 5. Honestly, I think her writing stalled this year. I really haven't seen much growth at all except that which came with a bit more maturity. I plan to finish ELTL 5 next year, but I am skipping a lot of the writing. The writing is my least favorite part of ELTL. I want to make clear that I don't think the writing instruction is bad, but my dd and I need more explicit instruction and expectations. I would get my dd's assignments and realize that she never truly understood what she was supposed to do. I will say that she was asked to pick, she would pick ELTL over WWS. She enjoys ELTL which is worth something...

 

I'm not sure which program would be best for your situation, but hopefully something here helps you sort it out.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

So both will get you pretty close to the same point by the end of the year. The difference is how they get you there. The instruction in WWS is much more explicit. My biggest frustration with ELTL is the lack of clear guidelines on the writing assignments. My dd will try to get away with one sentence answers when possible, and ELTL sometimes makes that possible. On the plus side, the teaching is very gentle with wonderful models in ELTL.

 

 

 

The bolded is why I'm struggling. :)  I've used WWS before with my two older dc (however, they are COMPLETELY different learners than this dd is), but I've not used the higher levels of ELTL so wasn't sure how the writing instruction differed in ELTL. Your explanation is helpful, but now I'm left wondering if I should do both!  It's the grammar, copywork, dictation, poetry, and picture study of ELTL that is so appealing to me and something that I'd like to get back to doing for this dc.

 

Upon looking through the WWS again I know there are parts she will not need repeated practice in, such as one level outlines, since she's already doing two level outlines. I think she'll be able to skip Part I and move through Part II pretty quickly since she's good at writing narratives\summaries from across the curricula. So, I'm wondering if she could do both WWS and ELTL.  

 

Guess I just need to purchase ELTL level 5 so I can look through it. :) 

[TracyP]

I was going to suggest doing both but didn't want to do this ----> :willy_nilly: to you. ;) If you are comfortable tweaking WWS, I think using both would be completely doable. You will have to pick and choose when it comes to the writing assignments in each, but I think they will complement each other nicely.
 

 

[PeterPan]

Aime, did you see the sample on lulu for ELtL?  I'm looking at it and your dd can already do the equivalent of all the writing in their level 5.  It's *ok* to skip components in WWS1, mercy.  It really tries to combine so many things where kids might be on different levels.  My dd didn't need the copia and easy outlining and narrations of WWS1, but she *did* need the highly systematic approach to rhetoric and using multiple sources.  ELtL isn't quite there, not in the samples.  But ELtL does include the copia and whatnot, which makes sense because it's targeted at a bit younger age.  

 

Does ELtL have some of their projected higher levels out yet?  I think if their level 7, for instance, were ready (or maybe even the 6), you might be able to get it to work.  I got the first three levels for my ds during the Build Your Own Bundle, so I understand what you're saying about liking it.  The sample includes some of the material from the later lessons of ELtL 5 and I just think you're going to find she's already beyond it.

 

What you might do instead is think about a book club, some creative writing, a bravewriter (more interactive, more creative, more passionate) class, having her start a blog, doing a journal or activities from the Don't Forget to Write! books, etc. to complement WWS.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I did see the sample but I'm so bad at getting a sense of the whole program from a sample.  I think I'll go ahead and pick up level 5 since I'll use it for my younger dc, but you may be right that the writing part of it may be well below her ability. I may find the grammar part is below her ability as well which would leave me with a reading schedule, some poetry, and a picture study.  Not enough to warrant me using the program. 

 

I'm all for tweaking the WWS to fit her needs, and know that I'll need to add something to it so I'll look into some of your suggestions OhE. 

 

Thanks for the convo ladies.  :) 

[PeterPan]

The ELtL website says she's working on a 6, so you might pop her an email and see where that's at.  

 

The issue with the writing in ELtL 5 is that they're using a single source and narrating, essentially summarizing.  They're doing it for a variety of genres, but that's still what it is.  They haven't moved into multiple sources, selecting facts from a list of facts you've gathered, choosing how to arrange those facts, etc. (the stuff WWS does).  They aren't even CLOSE to identical.  In that sense the writing in ELtL 5 is more similar to WT2. (just a step up from WT2)

 

That's why I'm saying your dd is beyond the writing in 5, because you're saying she's comfortable writing summaries across genres, which is what I'm seeing in 5.  Like you say, it's cool either way because you can use it for another dc.  That's just what I'm seeing.  WWS is going to get you to multiple sources, selecting your points from a field of data, and organizing those points to a purpose.  Much tighter, much more analytical.

[TracyP]

The ELtL website says she's working on a 6, so you might pop her an email and see where that's at.  

 

The issue with the writing in ELtL 5 is that they're using a single source and narrating, essentially summarizing.  They're doing it for a variety of genres, but that's still what it is.  They haven't moved into multiple sources, selecting facts from a list of facts you've gathered, choosing how to arrange those facts, etc. (the stuff WWS does).  They aren't even CLOSE to identical.  In that sense the writing in ELtL 5 is more similar to WT2. (just a step up from WT2)

 

That's why I'm saying your dd is beyond the writing in 5, because you're saying she's comfortable writing summaries across genres, which is what I'm seeing in 5.  Like you say, it's cool either way because you can use it for another dc.  That's just what I'm seeing.  WWS is going to get you to multiple sources, selecting your points from a field of data, and organizing those points to a purpose.  Much tighter, much more analytical.

 

Without a doubt, WWS is tighter and more analytical. But it isn't that ELTL doesn't include these things, it is just not as explicit. So lesson 78 is a scientific narration. It needs an intro and conclusion (these have been worked on extensively by this point). The author suggests using other sources for more details and says "You'll need to decide which details are important to your narration and which ones should be left out." There you have multiple sources, selecting and organizing your points, and intros and conclusions (which aren't included in WWS 1).

 

For another example, lesson 96 is a historical narration with the purpose to persuade. Again, an intro and conclusion are expected and using multiple sources is suggested. WWS doesn't touch on persuasive writing at all, iirc. ELTL is not nearly as explicit as WWS, but I truly don't think the end result is all that much different. I suspect most teachers will need to pull in that explicit teaching piece - like I said above, my dd was not getting there on her own. WWS could fill that gap nicely. But to describe ELTL as "writing summaries across genres" is not really accurate, and I didn't want that impression left for anyone who is following this.

[Saddlemomma]

Without a doubt, WWS is tighter and more analytical. But it isn't that ELTL doesn't include these things, it is just not as explicit. So lesson 78 is a scientific narration. It needs an intro and conclusion (these have been worked on extensively by this point). The author suggests using other sources for more details and says "You'll need to decide which details are important to your narration and which ones should be left out." There you have multiple sources, selecting and organizing your points, and intros and conclusions (which aren't included in WWS 1).

 

For another example, lesson 96 is a historical narration with the purpose to persuade. Again, an intro and conclusion are expected and using multiple sources is suggested. WWS doesn't touch on persuasive writing at all, iirc. ELTL is not nearly as explicit as WWS, but I truly don't think the end result is all that much different. I suspect most teachers will need to pull in that explicit teaching piece - like I said above, my dd was not getting there on her own. WWS could fill that gap nicely. But to describe ELTL as "writing summaries across genres" is not really accurate, and I didn't want that impression left for anyone who is following this.

 

Thank you for writing this because I see the same exact thing.  I purchased ELTL 5 for my DD (going into 7th) because we're doing a mash-up of TOG/Wayfarers. I had both EIW 7 and WWS 1 on hand, but also wanted to see what ELTL had to offer.  As I'm going through the lessons in ELTL and comparing it to WWS, I'm finding that it is actually right on track with WWS.  Both programs spend a significant amount of time on different types of narrations.  ELTL moves into the condensed, descriptive, and amplified narration while WWS devotes time to scientific narrations.  They both address outlines, however, there's more detail in WWS regarding outlines, so I'll have DD read the info in WWS about outlines and apply it to her ELTL exercises.  EIW 7 provides a short, 3 minute or so video about descriptive writing which I'll incorporate into the descriptive narration exercise in ELTL.

 

I plan to use all three resources together, with ELTL as the spine, to round out DD's writing class next year. WWS will provide more in-depth instruction where necessary, and EIW 7 will provide some visual instruction for DD as well. However, all the exercises will come from ELTL.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

We are using ELTL5 and WWS1 combined for 7th. We started at the end of 6th and will continue until we finish. Still on The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, and dd loves ELTL. We probably don't need to do them both, but I bought wws a couple years ago and I really want to see if we can finish it. We do them on alternating days. So far so good!

[Sahamamama]

I was going to suggest doing both but didn't want to do this ----> :willy_nilly: to you. ;) If you are comfortable tweaking WWS, I think using both would be completely doable. You will have to pick and choose when it comes to the writing assignments in each, but I think they will complement each other nicely.

 

 

We haven't started either, yet, but I was thinking the same thing. You sound like you want to do both! :)