Woodcock Johnson 4 ?s update & what now?

[busymotherof4]

They have done the testing for the IEP evaluation and I have the results of the WJ test. They also did a WISC but I don't have the results.

I have a 3 page report but can't upload it due to Internet issues.

Individual test results

Letter-Word 121

Applied Problems 120

Spelling 79

Passage Comprehension 122

Calculation 104

Writing Samples 122

Word Attack 124

Sentence Reading Fluency 116

Math Facts Fluency 94

Sentence Writing Fluency 89

Reading Vocabulary 129

 

We got a big list of Intra-Achievement Variations that gave a predicted score and then a PR and SD

 

Actual. Predicted. PR. SD

 

Basic Reading 123. 110. 96. +1.74

Math Calc. 98. 111. 9. -1.32

Letter-Word ident. 121. 110. 92. +1.37

Applied problems. 120. 109. 86. +1.08

Spelling 79. 116.

[5nomads]

What information are you looking for? What questions do you have about these results?

[busymotherof4]

What I'm trying to figure out is if these results point toward any LDs. I have been hearing more comments that my child is just being defiant and not trying but my gut says that something really is wrong with him. Walking into the meeting I want to have a clue if he is likely eligible for services or if we will be brushed off. We have been told all year that he can't be reading as well as he is and not be able to spell by the reading specialist.

Ack. Half my post disappeared . It makes sense that no one has a clue. (Blush)

So the confusing part is he scored 4 SD below what was expected in spelling.

Academic skills was 1.92 SD below the expected while Academic applications was up 2.82 SD.

I have the cluster scores and other variation but Im not typing them in again.

So my other part of the post was about getting brushed off by the psychologist so I'm not sure we will get any help with his behaviors.

We are having issues with him curling up in a ball when something goes wrong and he refuses to speak or let us know the problem. He is also extremely active. We are having horrible issues getting any written output. He still has letter and number reversals and he is having a difficult time memorizing his math facts.

[busymotherof4]

The other thing I can't figure out is how he possibly scored highly on the writing sample. He writes poorly. I can get a mis spelled simple sentence out of him unless the writing sample was oral it seems impossible for him to score above grade level.

[5nomads]

Did you meet with the psychologist about the results yet? Ours was pretty tight lipped until we had all the results and were able to discuss them together. Did they test hearing or language/speech? Those things could cause spelling issues. There is more than a 40 point difference between the spelling and writing sample so that seems like it could be a big deal. I hope someone else can give you more ideas or suggestions. 

[kbutton]

You will need someone to put into context what "writing" means at this stage of the game. And you'll need to compare it to the WISC scores. One thing is clear is that he is one smart cookie, so boredom could be a factor. I don't really know what the discrepancies within the WJ test mean. 

 

Is this your third grader? As far as curling up in a ball, having trouble getting words out of him, etc. that can go along with an ADHD kind of thing. Some experts believe that emotional regulation should be put back into the criteria (they were there a long time ago, apparently). He may believe that the deck is stacked against him and that he can't win--these kiddos sometimes perceive things very differently from the way adults do, and it's hard to know how things affect them. But curling up in a ball and not speaking would suggest to me that he feels like nothing is going to change or be different. I say this in the most neutral way because you never know what kids are thinking. He could be mad at you (without cause even), mad at the situation, mad at himself--kids come to some funny conclusions, but it's hard for some of them to put it into words.

 

My son's reversals are mostly going away now, and he is 7. We worked pretty hard on those because they were really bad for a long time. He still has trouble with right and left and stuff like that. His test scores are all over as well with no discernable pattern.

 

I hope you get some answers.

[busymotherof4]

Did you meet with the psychologist about the results yet? Ours was pretty tight lipped until we had all the results and were able to discuss them together. Did they test hearing or language/speech? Those things could cause spelling issues. There is more than a 40 point difference between the spelling and writing sample so that seems like it could be a big deal. I hope someone else can give you more ideas or suggestions.

We will meet with the whole team on June 9 (waiting on a final confirmation).

The school sent out a nurse who did a hearing and vision screening. He speaks clearly and with a huge vocabulary.

She brushed off his hashimotos as not a problem. She didn't understand that hypothyroid is different in a child than it is for an adult.

I was in the room for the spelling portion and heard him speak and he worked. He tried his best but couldn't spell even simple words.

[busymotherof4]

You will need someone to put into context what "writing" means at this stage of the game. And you'll need to compare it to the WISC scores. One thing is clear is that he is one smart cookie, so boredom could be a factor. I don't really know what the discrepancies within the WJ test mean.

 

 

Yes boredom probably is an issue. We spent most of the year working on his multiplication facts. We started the year midway though Singapore 3A and haven't finished 3B. We also did beast 3A and part of 3B. He still doesn't know those facts even though we have spent so much time in so many ways.

 

Is this your third grader?

Yes my 3rd grader. He will be 9 this summer.

 

As far as curling up in a ball, having trouble getting words out of him, etc. that can go along with an ADHD kind of thing. Some experts believe that emotional regulation should be put back into the criteria (they were there a long time ago, apparently). He may believe that the deck is stacked against him and that he can't win--these kiddos sometimes perceive things very differently from the way adults do, and it's hard to know how things affect them. But curling up in a ball and not speaking would suggest to me that he feels like nothing is going to change or be different. I say this in the most neutral way because you never know what kids are thinking. He could be mad at you (without cause even), mad at the situation, mad at himself--kids come to some funny conclusions, but it's hard for some of them to put it into words.

 

 

 

Yes that is the most frustrating thing. He can't tell us what he is feeling. ADHD is on the radar but I'm not sure. Emotionally he does seem to be behind. We have also thought maybe he is have anxiety issues but it's impossible to know what he is thinking. His gym coach says his behavior is just defiance and that I need to spank and discipline it out of him (not going to happen!). I guess that also worries me that he will do these same behaviors in front of other adults. I thought by this age he would stop.

 

 

 

My son's reversals are mostly going away now, and he is 7. We worked pretty hard on those because they were really bad for a long time. He still has trouble with right and left and stuff like that. His test scores are all over as well with no discernable pattern.

 

 

We keep working on the reversals. The only improvement at this point is if he looks carefully he might catch that he did it. He also sometimes asks which way a letter or number goes. Right now I just reassure him that lots of kids struggle with this and that it will get better with hard work. We are also working on cursive since he can't reverse letters with it.

 

I hope you get some answers.

[Heathermomster]

What I'm trying to figure out is if these results point toward any LDs. I have been hearing more comments that my child is just being defiant and not trying but my gut says that something really is wrong with him. Walking into the meeting I want to have a clue if he is likely eligible for services or if we will be brushed off. We have been told all year that he can't be reading as well as he is and not be able to spell by the reading specialist.

Ack. Half my post disappeared . It makes sense that no one has a clue. (Blush)

So the confusing part is he scored 4 SD below what was expected in spelling.

Academic skills was 1.92 SD below the expected while Academic applications was up 2.82 SD.

I have the cluster scores and other variation but Im not typing them in again.

So my other part of the post was about getting brushed off by the psychologist so I'm not sure we will get any help with his behaviors.

We are having issues with him curling up in a ball when something goes wrong and he refuses to speak or let us know the problem. He is also extremely active. We are having horrible issues getting any written output. He still has letter and number reversals and he is having a difficult time memorizing his math facts.

 Yes, I think the numbers do point to the possibility of a SLD.  

 

I am a little confused though.  Is your child in school?  

 

I work under the assumption that children want to do well and please the adults in their lives.  Outside comments about your child being defiant and lazy disturb me.  If I were not getting the help I needed and was hearing how I don't try hard enough, well I'd curl up in a ball too.

 

My DS tests gifted with 3 SLDs.  After looking at your son's achievement testing scores, my first instinct would be to go to OT for an eval.  The OT can evaluate balance, developmental motor, visual perception, and any core/pincer grasp weakness.  50% of children with motor planning issues are ADHD, and your child may need a sensory eval by a SIPT trained OT.  The OT can sort that out.  Gifted kiddos can appear emotionally immature as well.

 

Vision may be an issue too, so it might be helpful to rule that out by being evaluated by a COVD certified VT.  

 

A PhD Neuropsychologist (NP) can also run testing that measures the ability of a student to focus.  DS took the NEPSY II with his last NP.  I am not an expert on ADHD, but know there are clinical ways to test attention. Your child could be a mix of ADHD and some other SLD.    

 

There are kids who read that struggle with spelling.  Poor spelling could be caused by any number of problems, so you are going to need to explore and test further.  The achievement numbers do not identify the underlying mechanism for the difficulties, and public school test for what issues they will address for an IEP.  They do not diagnose.

 

Not to be completely negative, but expect to be totally brushed off by the ps.  Yes, miracles do happen; however, your child had scores in the 120 range and average is 100.  Public schools are not prepared to deal with 2e students.  

[kbutton]

First, anxiety can absolutely look like defiance (and lots of other things). Go with your gut. Parents are always persecuted over this kind of stuff, and it's shameful that happens. 

 

Some kids don't really pick up facts through drill. My older one picks them up much better by doing the operations over and over within harder conceptual problems. He works more slowly because of this, but they do eventually click. And that's okay. I would prioritize understanding over memorized facts if he's happy continuing to move forward. You can use fact practice on the side. Or, if he's like mine, have him solve several  problems like 456 x 3 (or however many digits he comfortable with) every day. If he's way too slow at calculation for word problems, consider giving him a fact table for reference when he's doing word problems and such, but have him work it out himself when he's doing straight calculation. My son had a good number sense, and once he'd made enough meaningful notches on his mental number line for various numbers, then he gained some speed. He wouldn't memorize 9 + 9 = 18 because he already knew that 8 + 8 = 16, and he could derive the rest from there. He would not budge on that idea, but over time, the facts stuck on their own. Drill and timed tests in school (he went to school K-2nd) did not help at all in his case.

 

Yes, vision issues could cause issues with spelling. I hadn't really thought about that, but a COVD examination is never a bad idea. These really smart kids hide all kinds of things unintentionally. They compensate so well that they can be real mysteries.

 

Some of what you say sounds a lot like my son at this age, and while an initial probe didn't uncover much, it became clear within the next year that there was more going on under the hood. The smarter the kid, sometimes the later these things come out. Don't let that keep you from seeking answers now and later, and don't second-guess yourself if you don't get all the answers right now. We thought maybe gifted, ADHD, and some sensory. We got more than we bargained for, lol, but all of those were correct and then some. We wanted better answers than ADHD before we covered things up with meds. That was a good move. (And we do meds now, happily.) We did eventually find vision issues down the road--mild covergence issues. That played into some motor activities like bilateral movement, tracking a ball to catch it, etc. We did VT for that, and not only did his eye strain clear up, he gained amazing amounts of coordination. Then we did OT for sensory. If we'd done OT first, we'd have been going the long way around. Some kids might need a different approach. Anyway, just an aside since those things were mentioned by Heathermomster.

 

The gold standard around here for attention is a Vanderbilt Survey. You can get the parent version online. It's not a bad idea to have others fill it out that see him other settings (not the coach that is harping on you, but maybe other people who see him in group settings). You can fill one out for daily behavior and one for school behavior as well. 

 

Definitely check into the maturity issue. It could be meaningful. It definitely was in our case.

 

The achievement numbers do not identify the underlying mechanism for the difficulties, and public school test for what issues they will address for an IEP.  They do not diagnose.

 

Not to be completely negative, but expect to be totally brushed off by the ps.  Yes, miracles do happen; however, your child had scores in the 120 range and average is 100.  Public schools are not prepared to deal with 2e students.  

 

Unfortunately, this is probably true. The public school is going to want to see some degree of failure before they will remediate, except if you meet certain criteria (you might get a Section 504 plan which does start a track record for accommodations). I have no idea if they look at spelling or not. Our school looked at math calculation and reading. That's the ONLY academic stuff they tested, though they also tested speech (social skills), OT, PT, hearing, etc. A couple of tips...

• See if you can get any additional test results prior to the meeting so that you are not gobsmacked in the meeting with new information.
• Don't sign off on the ETR until you feel confident that you understand all the details and have explored whether or not your son meets the criteria for getting an IEP. They will likely downplay concerns or test results unless you get some really great people in that meeting. (Our speech lady went to bat for us over social skills. The OT could not recommend anything for school-based OT, but she stayed in the meeting to cast her vote and make sure she understood the whole picture of my son and advocated for him very well.)
• Prepare by going on your state's department of education website to see what the ETR forms include. You should bring your own observations with you and ask them to be incorporated into the ETR document. Bring several hardcopies of your own concerns (in the format of the ETR report--it will be the section that the teachers and specialists use. Our form had three parts). If they don't include your comments ahead of time (you should request that they do), then you have something to pass around. :-) You should tie your concerns to the criteria they use to establish a need for an IEP. Document how you've instructed him in these areas (anecdotes and simple statements are fine)--this shows that he received adequate instruction. They will want a lists of concerns as well as specific examples of how that plays out in real life. If you've seen him in other "classroom" settings, delineate how this plays out in those settings--they'll need help bridging to how these concerns matter in their environment because that's how the IEP works.
• Exude calm, non-rushed confidence. This is necessary especially if you aren't signing anything that day. Even if you agree with the ETR and sign, then you don't have to do the IEP the same day. If they have it prepared, that's fine, but you don't have to sign that either. You can ask for an additional meeting to have time to think and look at it.
• Realize that they might try to pass off the problems as inadequate instruction because that means they don't have to serve that scenario. This is in our ETR form--it's one of the conditions to meet.
• Our state has an IDEA booklet that outlines which disabilities will or will not qualify your child for an IEP, and even then, you still have to be able to demonstrate an academic difficulty as a result of the disability. Sometimes you can qualify on the basis of social skills and such (in our district, this is evaluated by the speech person).

Hang in there. Whatever the outcome, you will learn something new, and you can take that information going forward and get additional testing if necessary.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm no psychologist but the one thing that jumps out at me is that the areas relying more on memory (spelling, math facts) trail the ones relying more on conceptual understanding. When you get the results of the WISC, look at the working memory subscore. My suspicion is that it might be lower than the others.

 

I think you might need a neuropsychologist to help pinpoint the LD(s).

[PeterPan]

That's a pretty standard ADHD presentation.  I don't see how they get to SLD with those numbers, just me.  Our ps is totally about the numbers, and with just the spelling low you're not getting there.  Even on the math, it's 1.32 SD below expected.  Our school wants 1.5-2.0 SD below IQ, and they use the full scale, not the GAI number.  So if his GAI is 120 and his full is 110, then they go off the lower number for calculating the discrepancy.  So for ps purposes, at least in our area, no SLD diagnosis.  Yes a weakness, not to LD.  And that's COMMON with ADHD.  You're not losing your mind, but I'm just saying it could be worse.

 

That behavior sounds very problematic.  Is that happening in school?  You may need to take him for a private eval for that, preferably with someone who can help you sort out the ADHD vs. ASD question.  There are some charts online for that and maybe you already have a gut sense, since your gut meter is going off so strongly.  Was it in his ETR?

[busymotherof4]

Update:

We had the IEP meeting today. They qualified him as having a SLD of written expression related to a processing disorder in the area of attention. In his FAPE it was decided that the general independantly study program and the resource program are appropriate. He will get an hour a week of one on one tutoring. If we stay with our school he will also get another hour of tutoring with the LA specialist and I will get extra support from the school (this is not in the IEP but school specific offers of help).

We need to get an evaluation for ADHD. Lack of attention was sited from all the testers plus myself and the teacher we work with.

The WISC came out weird. Since the psychologist mentioned the lack of attention and that he was moving more and more I'm not sure how accurate it was. I just got a overview as it was part of the whole IEP meeting. The psychologist just seemed so happy at how average Thomas scored. The people who know him don't see him as average. He doesn't talk like an average 8 year old.

 

Verbal 130

Perceptual reasoning 106

Working memory 104

Processing speed 88

Full scale 112

Similarities 13

Vocabulary 17

Comprehension 15

Block design 13

Picture concepts 9

Matrix reasoning 11

Digit span 9

Letter-number sequence 13

Coding 7

Symbol search 9

I did accept their results and recommendations but now am trying to figure out what next. His behaviors are interfering with schoolwork and our relationship.

[kbutton]

It sounds like the IEP meeting went well in that they were willing to give him some intervention. I would make sure that the person evaluating for ADHD knows about the thyroid stuff--if that's behind it, it would be good to have an accurate assessment of how to move forward with the behavior. I would want to know if they recommend ADHD meds and such with thyroid conditions or not.

[Tokyomarie]

I would be inclined to seek evaluations with a COVD optometrist, an OT, and a neuropsychologist. His Perceptual Reasoning is significantly lower than his Verbal Reasoning so I would want more information about his visual and spatial abilities. Lower Working Memory and Processing Speed are common in students with attention challenges. His Processing Speed is way lower than his Verbal Reasoning, and also significantly lower than his Perceptual Reasoning. There are many things that can result in attention issues. Sensory processing and motor skills/muscle tone can be evaluated by an OT. The neuropsychologist can evaluate attention and impulsivity, as well as issues that go along with it, including taking a deeper look at various aspects of memory function.

[Heathermomster]

I just wanted to add that you can carry the WISC and achievement scores over to the NP and save yourself some money.  

[busymotherof4]

The processing speed was commented on that it hit both of his weaknesses attention and handwriting. I think we do want to seek meds for ADHD if a dr is in agreement. His actual time on task for his school day is very small. I'm not sure that ADHD is all that is an issue but it could be something as simple as frustration at his inability to show what he knows. He can tell us but anything written is below grade level.

I expected the working memory and processing speed to be lower but I was surprised when perceptual reasoning ended up lower. If he has a visual issue that would make sense. It would also explain why he can't remember the direction certain numbers and letters are supposed to face.

[PeterPan]

Tokyo put it all very politely, but I'll just say you probably need to get private evals with someone who handles NLD and ASD.  You're mentioning behavioral issues and you have a huge gap between his IQ and performance.  Probably that full scale IQ shouldn't have even been calculated.  I'm not a numbers geek, but I'm just saying usually with big gaps they don't.  He's NOT average, not with those numbers.  You need private evals to sort it out.

 

Has he had an OT eval yet?

[Crimson Wife]

Tokyo put it all very politely, but I'll just say you probably need to get private evals with someone who handles NLD and ASD.  You're mentioning behavioral issues and you have a huge gap between his IQ and performance.  Probably that full scale IQ shouldn't have even been calculated.  I'm not a numbers geek, but I'm just saying usually with big gaps they don't.  He's NOT average, not with those numbers.  You need private evals to sort it out.

 

 

I agree. The school psychologist didn't bother to calculate my little one's FSIQ nor any of the composite scores aside from the verbal because there was too wide a variation in subscores for them to be valid. The verbal subscores of the WPPSI were consistent enough to calculate a composite but they reflect her weakness in expressive language more than anything else (the receptive vocabulary tests came out significantly higher).

 

"Twice Exceptional" kids are tricky to figure out, and with the vocab subscore you listed, that's in the gifted range.

[busymotherof4]

Tokyo put it all very politely, but I'll just say you probably need to get private evals with someone who handles NLD and ASD. You're mentioning behavioral issues and you have a huge gap between his IQ and performance. Probably that full scale IQ shouldn't have even been calculated. I'm not a numbers geek, but I'm just saying usually with big gaps they don't. He's NOT average, not with those numbers. You need private evals to sort it out.

 

Has he had an OT eval yet?

No OT eval. Things got pushed through so it was overlooked. If we are still with this school they will do it in the fall. I am confident that they will work with us but we are most likely moving this summer. I am thinking I will do it when we get settled.

What is NLD?

 

 

He come from a quirky family. I know my husband is highly gifted but we are not sure of his IQ. I tested gifted on a group test as a child (but was excluded from gifted programs for a few years because I tested below disabiling in something having to do with handwriting). He has an older sister that tested gifted with ADHD. His older brother also has strong math talent hindered by handwriting issues and my inability to help him enough. Older bro is probably gifted. He took a 4th grade NNAT in K and scored very high. Older brother is highly quirky but he is so good natured that it hasn't been an issue.

Moving and doing the single parent thing is making this all difficult. I would guess our stressful year has brought things to a head. His Dad lost his job in Oct. at the end of Jan he got a temp job in another state. He tries to come for a weekend once a month.

We will do OT, Covd and Ed Psyc testing but figuring out where and when is the tough part.

[geodob]

What this indicates to me, is that he has a difficulty with visual recall and visualisation?

With reading we see the visual image, and recall the sound.

Which he seems clearly able to do.

But has a difficulty with the opposite process?

You could simply ask him if he can picture a word in his mind, when he goes to spell it?

 

 

[PeterPan]

There's a thumb/hand issue that goes with NLD (non-verbal learning disorder).  No, the school OT eval won't be good enough for this.  You're going to need private.  When are you moving?  Is it a sure thing or only a possibility?  If it's a sure thing and you know when, you could research OTs for the new location and get on their wait list.  An OT wait list can be short or 1-3 months, just varies.  It will take you a while to find a good one.

 

The reason the school OT eval won't do is because it won't be thorough enough.  They're only looking for the bare minimum stuff they HAVE to service to get the child above the 1.5 SD below the mean cutoff.  That's the law, service to the bare minimum point and drop.  They won't look for retained primitive reflexes and deeper issues.  It's not medical level treatment, just can they function just enough to sit in a classroom and do their work.  

 

You can look for an OT who is SIPT certified or at least one who has a good reputation for sensory.  If you find a good COVD doc (to get that screening appointment, just a basic exam to start with), then ask them for OTs they refer to.  Compare that to other lists.

 

Yes, it sounds like you're connecting a lot of dots.  You're not crazy to connect those dots.  :)

[Crimson Wife]

A pediatric neurologist may be able to help get insurance approval to see a neuropsychologist if you go to him/her with concerns about motor skills, ADHD, and/or ASD. It all depends on your insurance (our current HMO insurance unfortunately won't pay for any neuropsych exams for developmental issues, only in the case of brain trauma or stroke).

[Heathermomster]

My insurance paid for np testing last year due to the inattentive ADHD diagnosis. Definitely call insurance and ask.