Writing reversals - is writing 8 exercise worth a try?

[Bookworm4]

DD is turning 8 in July.  She still reverses letters and numbers.  Sometimes she reverses only certain ones for a while, and then things will change and she'll reverse other letters/numbers.  For background, she went through vision therapy for 9 months and finished that a year ago when she was still 6, almost 7.  She has also been in speech therapy for the last 3 years for articulation and has made a lot of progress there.  We were working on reversals at the end of vision therapy, but graduated from that portion of the program before things were really solid.  I was hoping this last year that things would improve, but they are not and the more writing she does the worse they seem to get.  Her pencil grip is bad and hasn't always been bad so don't know for sure when that changed.  I have some exercises to try with her related to that this summer.  She also can't remember the difference between a P or 9.  Also, she forms her letters bottom to top and writes her o's clockwise instead of counter clockwise.  Some of the struggles are a result of habits formed while in PS kinder with vision problems we didn't know about, but I don't think all the problems and struggles are to blame on that.  Has anyone tried the writing 8 exercise to help with reversals?  Did it help?  Are there other things I should look into to help with reversals?  It not only impacts writing, but also impacts her reading (she still has a hard time remembering if which is a b or d most days, but not all the time).  She recently reversed her p to a q (which I hadn't noticed much with her).

 

Also for reference, I don't know how much this impacts writing, but I do believe she still has some primitive infant reflexes that have not fully integrated.  We started working on a couple in vision therapy, but I do not believe they were fully integrated when we stopped vision therapy and I was bad and didn't continue the exercises.  That is also on my list to start on this summer.

 

 

[scoutingmom]

I tried it with my daughter. I am unconvinced it helped. Her problem was a bit more with numbers than letters, although when she was very young she would mirror write. It has decreased over time. This year I retaught her the numbers using handwriting without tears (I got a teacher's manual at a garage sale) and it made a huge difference for numbers. She has gone from writing number digits backwards 75% of the time down to maybe 10%. Maybe their program would help? Haven't used it, so can't verify it.

[Bookworm4]

I tried some handwriting without tears for letters last year, but she hated it and the way it looked. I eventually stopped because we had enough battle with vision therapy and some reading that I couldn't handle another battle. She likes their app though so maybe I should look into it more again. I have StartWrite software I can use to make tracing or copy work if I should focus on that first. She does better copying, but a copying exercise last week is were I noticed she wrote her "p" backwards in the work "pretend". She is much worse with numbers, but on the same math page she can write one number correctly on the page and a little late write its mirror image. I haven't noticed a specific pattern with all numbers.

[scoutingmom]

Sorry I have no advice except to say that my daughter's handwriting has improved immensely this year - at least while doing copywork. I really can't attribute it to anything. We went through the letters yet again with the program we used before, and did HWT for numbers. She is 9.5

[geodob]

You wrote that: 'she forms her letters bottom to top and writes her o's clockwise instead of counter clockwise.'

Which is basically forming the letters in reverse.

So that it could be helpful if she learns to form them correctly?

Which might correct the reversal problem?

The 'writing 8 exercise' could be helpful to establish a new way to form letters/ numbers.

Where I think that you mean the 'sideways 8 exercise'?

 

The sideways 8 air-writing exercise with the arm fully extended, to form letters.

Is effective, as it develops a deeper 'gross motor' sense of the directionality of forming letters.

Which can then carry through to how the fingers form letters.

 

Though you also mentioned that her pencil grip has changed and is now 'bad'?

Where it might be worthwhile understanding why it has changed?

But I wonder if the way that she forms letters, has effected her pencil grip?

Writing letters from 'bottom to top', can turn the hand inwards in a hooked position.

 

Yet you also mentioned that she has some retained reflexes.

Where the one that effects the hands, is the Palmar/ grasp Reflex.

Though a basic test of this, simply involves touching the thumb to fingertip, going from finger to finger, back and forth.

With a retained palmar reflex, this will be a struggle.

[Heathermomster]

You mentioned articulation and handwriting issues. Handwriting problems are often associated with motor planning issues and to sort that out, you need to find an OT or PT who works with children. BTW, VT will not be effective if the developmental motor issues are present. I am a little disturbed that the VT did not send you to find an OT first..But whatever...

 

I expect your DD will require cross body and balance type exercises to sort out laterality and directionality issues. A good OT/PT will identify any prim reflexes and incorporate exercises into their exercise regime to sort the business out.

 

For the handwriting itself, air write and use sidewalk chalk to teach proper letter formation. HWT teaches the concept of the starting corner. Always have your child place a star or sticker in the upper left hand corner or whatever she is writing on. I like LOE's hw instructions for lower case letters and the HWT Wet, Dry, Try app for teaching capital letter formation. We use the LOE dry erase board. I expect your child's poor handwriting habits are ingrained at this point. An OT can advise you.

 

You know this...don't ignore the homework exercises sent by VT or OT/PT. You must make the homework a priority because each exercise has a specific purpose and will help your DD. The underlying issues that you see now will affect her EF and ability to attend plus any future learning. You must be very deliberate as you work with your child.

[Bookworm4]

You wrote that: 'she forms her letters bottom to top and writes her o's clockwise instead of counter clockwise.'

Which is basically forming the letters in reverse.

So that it could be helpful if she learns to form them correctly?  She may have.  She went to public school for K and had vision problems we didn't know about.  I know they taught correct formation, but with 25 kids in a class a teacher can't stand over each child.

Which might correct the reversal problem?  I don't know.  We have worked on correct letter formation at home, but I think a big part of it for he is visual memory and which direction it faces.  She still struggles with left and right and remembering the difference.

The 'writing 8 exercise' could be helpful to establish a new way to form letters/ numbers.

Where I think that you mean the 'sideways 8 exercise'? Yes, I meant the sideways or lazy 8 writing exercise. 

 

The sideways 8 air-writing exercise with the arm fully extended, to form letters.

Is effective, as it develops a deeper 'gross motor' sense of the directionality of forming letters.

Which can then carry through to how the fingers form letters.

 

Though you also mentioned that her pencil grip has changed and is now 'bad'?

Where it might be worthwhile understanding why it has changed?  I honestly have no idea when or why is changed.  I don't remember thinking much about it last year (we avoided as much writing as possible last school year and she was in vision therapy) and remember her using the quadrupod grasp in PS kinder.  However, now she uses the inter-digital brace seen here.

But I wonder if the way that she forms letters, has effected her pencil grip?  Possibily, but I am starting to wonder if it is more to do with muscle control somewhere because even if she tries to use a different grip she stiffens a joint or wants to do a thumb wrap which I assume is to add stability.

Writing letters from 'bottom to top', can turn the hand inwards in a hooked position.

 

Yet you also mentioned that she has some retained reflexes.  Moro and STNR are the ones that the COVD doc agreed she had retained.  I suspected others, but I know some symptoms can overlap so didn't question him too much at the time.  They tested her one way for the reflexes, but I thought some specialists will check for retained reflexes more than one way.  It's been over a year since I researched this though so my memory may be a little foggy on it.

Where the one that effects the hands, is the Palmar/ grasp Reflex.  At the time we checked the retained reflexes, she seemed okay with the Palmar reflex, BUT she was checked my our COVD doc and vision therapist and he himself said he'd prefer to refer me to an OT for checking them all, but we didn't have any in the area that would check for primitive reflexes.  I could try checking this again. 

Though a basic test of this, simply involves touching the thumb to fingertip, going from finger to finger, back and forth.

With a retained palmar reflex, this will be a struggle.  I will check her for this later today.  I know my 4 yr old has a retained hand relex (and possibly more) as I see her open and close her mouth while she opens and closes scissors (I will have to look back at my notes to remember if this is part of the palmar or the other reflex related to the hand - I can't remember which one connects the hand to the mouth).

 

 

We've spent a lot of time working on correct letter formation this year, but unless I give her something to trace with a starting dot for each letter every time, she reverts to forming them in reverse and some letters in mirror image.  I can make it so I create everything in startwrite for her and make her trace with the starting dot and go through correct letter formation again, but I am just starting to question if that will be enough at this point.

 

[Bookworm4]

You mentioned articulation and handwriting issues. Handwriting problems are often associated with motor planning issues and to sort that out, you need to find an OT or PT who works with children. BTW, VT will not be effective if the developmental motor issues are present. I am a little disturbed that the VT did not send you to find an OT first..But whatever...

 

A year or year and a half ago our COVD said there weren't any OTs in the area that worked on retained reflexes that he knew of as he would have preferred to refer us to someone.  Another mom I spoke with at the end of our VT process said that her son didn't make much progress in VT until they also added in OT and he had also been in ST as well.  It made me curious if I should check into it more.

 

I expect your DD require will cross body and balance type exercises to sort out laterality and directionality issues. A good OT/PT will identify any prim reflexes and incorporate exercises into their exercise regime to sort the business out.  We did all sorts of cross body and balance type exercises while in VT and I felt like some of the directionality issues were starting to improve, but then they "graduated" her from that portion of VT (they said at that point she needed to mature more to continue more as she was still 6 and the next types of things to progress through we just needed to wait for her brain to mature more as others exercises many kids can't do until age 8 or 9).

 

For the handwriting itself, air write and use sidewalk chalk to teach proper letter formation. HWT teaches the concept of the starting corner. Always have your child place a star or sticker in the upper left hand corner or whatever she is writing on. I like LOE's hw instructions for lower case letters and the HWT Wet, Dry, Try app for teaching capital letter formation. We use the LOE dry erase board. I expect your child's poor handwriting habits are ingrained at this point. An OT can advise you.  We have the HWT app and she likes that.  I have the LOE dry erase board and have seen some of their hw instructions and can check into that as well.  Her capital letters are usually okay, but she sometimes still writes R and S in their mirror image.

 

You know this...don't ignore the homework exercises sent by VT or OT/PT. You must make the homework a priority because each exercise has a specific purpose and will help your DD. The underlying issues that you see now will affect her EF and ability to attend plus any future learning. You must be very deliberate as you work with your child.  We did all the homework assigned by our VT while in vision therapy, but they didn't tell us to do anything else after our 3 month follow up from finishing that phase (I think they worded it as a phase) of VT.  Speech in the only therapy she is still in at the moment and we do assigned practice there, but it is speech through the school and the only homework is articulation practice once she can form the correct sound.  She has never been seen by an OT or PT though.  If I should find an OT, would you recommend I ask the pediatrician's office for a recommendation?  We live in a smaller city so are somewhat limited on some options unless we travel 2-3 hrs to a big city.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Yes, speak with the ped about a OT rec.  If you have a dyslexia school, call them directly and ask for a referral. Experienced tutors deal with diverse children, so they see and hear things.  You need to network.  You want an OT/PT that understands dysgraphia/dyspraxia/developmental coordination disorder.  I'm not suggesting your DD has that, but it would not hurt to explore that avenue and rule it out. Has your DD seen a NP yet for an evaluation? If not, start saving your money for testing.  

 

There are several youtube videos that teach the prim reflex integration exercises.  The Palmar reflex requires a soft squeeze ball.  The book Focus Moves seems to incorporate many of the exercises that DS used while in PT.

 

Even with PT/OT/VT, there is no one sized fix.  Man, I wish I could waive a magic wand and things suddenly be perfect.  You need to rule out what can be dealt with, assess what remains, and then accommodate.  Cursive handwriting helped DS with writing reversals, but DS hates cursive.  DS started keyboarding in 4th grade and was taught typing in 5th grade.  Handwriting expectations take a mighty leap by logic stage.  Anyhoo...

 

Handwriting/motor issues just stink, but they may be worked around.  No one understands motor planning unless they deal directly with it.  It certainly does not help when therapy providers only know their one area of expertise. Anyways, accommodate the handwriting without guilt or remorse.  Good luck.  

 

ETA:  If you are not doing this already, maybe consider enrolling your child in gymnastics or swimming.  Whatever physical exercise she can do that is safe considering her vision.  These kiddos need movement. 

[PeterPan]

The school can do an OT eval.  She NEEDS OT for the retained primitive reflexes,and she may end up with some other labels as well. When does your IEP renew?  Will they do a folder review or will they do fresh psych evals at some point?  Has she actually had a psych eval?

[Bookworm4]

Yes, speak with the ped about a OT rec.  If you have a dyslexia school, call them directly and ask for a referral. Experienced tutors deal with diverse children, so they see and hear things.  You need to network.  You want an OT/PT that understands dysgraphia/dyspraxia/developmental coordination disorder.  I'm not suggesting your DD has that, but it would not hurt to explore that avenue and rule it out. Has your DD seen a NP yet for an evaluation? If not, start saving your money for testing.  

 

There are several youtube videos that teach the prim reflex integration exercises.  The Palmar reflex requires a soft squeeze ball.  The book Focus Moves seems to incorporate many of the exercises that DS used while in PT.

 

Even with PT/OT/VT, there is no one sized fix.  Man, I wish I could waive a magic wand and things suddenly be perfect.  You need to rule out what can be dealt with, assess what remains, and then accommodate.  Cursive handwriting helped DS with writing reversals, but DS hates cursive.  DS started keyboarding in 4th grade and was taught typing in 5th grade.  Handwriting expectations take a mighty leap by logic stage.  Anyhoo...

 

Handwriting/motor issues just stink, but they may be worked around.  No one understands motor planning unless they deal directly with it.  It certainly does not help when therapy providers only know their one area of expertise. Anyways, accommodate the handwriting without guilt or remorse.  Good luck.  

 

ETA:  If you are not doing this already, maybe consider enrolling your child in gymnastics or swimming.  Whatever physical exercise she can do that is safe considering her vision.  These kiddos need movement. 

 

I will have to call our ped's office and the lady I mentioned below to see what I can find out about an OT.  The closest dyslexia school is 2+ hrs away.  No, we have not seen a NP.  I doubt there are any in our area to be honest, but can travel if needed if it helps us/her. 

 

I have seen the youtube video for the palmer reflex and even remember saving it in pinterest.  I will find a ball to use with it and have her start on that while I figure out the rest.  I have not seen the book Focus Moves and will check that out.

 

I have thought about switching to cursive and she is finally interested in learning cursive, but started second guessing myself if that was the right move. 

 

As for motor planning, I confess that I have never heard the term.  We talked about visual-motor problems with the COVD doc and the vision therapist and I've had talks with fine motor with people, but not heard the term before.  I will read up on it to equip myself with the right questions to ask.

 

We did gymnastics all of last school year while in VT and then took a break for swimming lessons last summer.  DH went through a job change and so extra lessons got put on hold.  I was actually thinking this past week that we needed to get her back into swimming or gymnastics for her though and possibly my 4 yr old too as I'm starting to see some signs in her of things older DD did at that age that I now know weren't things she would just grow out of on her own and needed outside help.  (ETA: I know swim and gymnastics aren't going to "fix" what I'm starting to see and I think she's got more retained reflexes than the palmar, but while I'm searching for answer for ODD I think it will help with YDD - I am starting to see the anxiety and fears related to the moro reflex that started at this time for ODD and I know if moro is retained than others often are retained as well.)

 

 

The school can do an OT eval.  She NEEDS OT for the retained primitive reflexes,and she may end up with some other labels as well. When does your IEP renew?  Will they do a folder review or will they do fresh psych evals at some point?  Has she actually had a psych eval?

 

I know of a lady to works on retained primitive reflexes and will travel to a place 3 hrs away.  She also trains PT, OT, and VT staff related to the reflexes.  I can see if she knows of anyone closer to me that works on the reflexes.  Our IEP renews this fall and right now only speech is listed on the IEP.  I spoke with a teacher today about the possibility of an OT eval, but I am not holding my breath to get one through the school.  It's hard to get into the OT in our school district and even then, the OT is not actually at the school.  They skype and have an OT that lives 4 hrs away watch the kids and give directions to the person physically present with the kids.  The school has also never done a full psych eval - only a speech eval at this point.  I asked our SLP we meet with weekly about the upcoming IEP, but she's not certain whether or not we will be able to continue receiving speech through the school.  Our SLP only works with kids through 1st grade and then 2nd grade and up are with a different SLP.  The other SLP said it's been harder the last few years to finish out or continue with speech in all cases.  For articulation purposes, we are down to really working on the /th/ sounds in conversation and /r/ sounds.  She has some beginning /r/ sounds and some beginning /r/ blends, but she still can't heard the difference in all cases for the sound in other positions and other blends.  Words like "one" and "run" are very hard for the average person to know which she is saying.

[Bookworm4]

Also, I don't know if this impacts anything else I've said or recommendations related to the OT/PT, but she also has problems reading and while we've been making progress as I've been reading more on this board it has made me start to question if dyslexia may be in play or not.  I just ordered Dancing Bears a week or two ago, but reading on here this weekend started to second guess if that was the right move.  I've been wanting to sit down and ask about that, but haven't had a chance to type it all out that I think may impact someone's recommendation related to it or even to know if trying Dancing Bears was a good move.  Anyway, just adding that as I know often various areas are connected and didn't know if knowing that would be helpful to my questions above.

[FairProspects]

Do you have zoo letter pictures up anywhere? Those cards with animal pictures drawn into the letters? Sometimes the picture association can really help young children remember letter orientation. That was the recommendation from our neuropsych.

[Bookworm4]

I don't have any zoo letter pictures. I can check online for some.

[geodob]

The palmar reflex is connected in the brain, to the 'oro-facial muscles'.  Which are the muscles around the lips, and control their movement.

So that a baby is born with a hand-mouth connection, as innate self feeding ability.

You noted her difficulty with 'r' sounds, and making 'run' distinct from 'one'.

Though it is the lips that turn one into run.

 

The Palmar reflex is also called the Grasp reflex.

Which is a survival mechanism, where most babies can grip an adults finger so tightly, that they can be lifted in the air.

Where touching a babies 'palm', is like setting off a mouse trap.

So that a babies begins by learning to inhibit this trigger from the palm.

Inhibiting this Off/On muscle response.

 

Where they can start to develop what is like a Volume control of muscles, that control their rate of contraction and extension.

For example, perhaps you could simply try bringing a fingertip and thumb together?

But try doing it as slowly as you can?

 

Though each finger has a muscle on each side, that is connected to your elbow.

Which work in unison with each other.

So that if you tried bringing your thumb and fingertip together?

It didn't just involve muscles slowly contracting?

But also the opposing muscles extending.

 

Maybe you could also wiggle a finger around, and try and imagine the actual muscle control involved with that finger wiggling?

Then consider the complexity of coordinating 4 fingers and a thumb?

That can wiggle in unison.

To make a wiggly mark on paper, called a letter.

 

So that one could wiggle their way out of Dysgraphia?

[Bookworm4]

The palmar reflex is connected in the brain, to the 'oro-facial muscles'.  Which are the muscles around the lips, and control their movement.

So that a baby is born with a hand-mouth connection, as innate self feeding ability.

You noted her difficulty with 'r' sounds, and making 'run' distinct from 'one'.

Though it is the lips that turn one into run.

 

The Palmar reflex is also called the Grasp reflex.

Which is a survival mechanism, where most babies can grip an adults finger so tightly, that they can be lifted in the air.

Where touching a babies 'palm', is like setting off a mouse trap.

So that a babies begins by learning to inhibit this trigger from the palm.

Inhibiting this Off/On muscle response.

 

Where they can start to develop what is like a Volume control of muscles, that control their rate of contraction and extension.

For example, perhaps you could simply try bringing a fingertip and thumb together?

But try doing it as slowly as you can?

 

Though each finger has a muscle on each side, that is connected to your elbow.

Which work in unison with each other.

So that if you tried bringing your thumb and fingertip together?

It didn't just involve muscles slowly contracting?

But also the opposing muscles extending.

 

Maybe you could also wiggle a finger around, and try and imagine the actual muscle control involved with that finger wiggling?

Then consider the complexity of coordinating 4 fingers and a thumb?

That can wiggle in unison.

To make a wiggly mark on paper, called a letter.

 

So that one could wiggle their way out of Dysgraphia?

 

Thanks, that interesting.  I never thought that much about the palmar or grasp reflex outside of it impacting grasp and fine motor.  I also never thought about the connection to that and speech articulation issues.  Thinking back, I have noticed her moving her mouth in odd ways when concentrating on writing much.  Thinking through the reflex and re-reading about it today and yesterday, I definitely need to work with her on this. 

 

As for her being able to produce the /r/ sound, she can move the lips into the right position now (she couldn't always), but she can't always get her tongue right.  The tongue has to slightly curl up on each side (sort of like a u shape) and touch the top of the roof of the mouth near the teeth.  I never even thought about what the tongue did with this sound until working with our SLP. 

 

[The Bobby Soxer]

Here is what I can say about my limited experience (3 students with dysgraphia, dyslexia and various other issues) with this exercise...

Did it hurt? No

Did it help? Possibly

All students showed improvement but this was not their only form of therapy.

Unfortunately, there was no way to know what specifically helped. It might have been a

combination of things or even a bit of maturity.

 

I hope you find something that helps. It is so frustrating to wade through all the options.

[Bookworm4]

Here is what I can say about my limited experience (3 students with dysgraphia, dyslexia and various other issues) with this exercise...

Did it hurt? No

Did it help? Possibly

All students showed improvement but this was not their only form of therapy.

Unfortunately, there was no way to know what specifically helped. It might have been a

combination of things or even a bit of maturity.

 

I hope you find something that helps. It is so frustrating to wade through all the options.

 

Thanks.  Yes, it is frustrating trying to wade through options.

[Tiramisu]

.....BTW, VT will not be effective if the developmental motor issues are present. I am a little disturbed that the VT did not send you to find an OT first..But whatever...

 

Thanks, Heather. This confirms something for me.

 

Our VT doc said my oldest had an issue but that VT wouldn't help her. Not too long after that, we had the np eval, with the np telling us she would have given dd a DCD dx if she had been younger. Now I see the connection more directly. VT wouldn't have helped dd because of the coordination weakness.

 

(That's why I love our VT doc. On more than one occasion he could have got a lot of money out of us but instead he's been straight with us about which of my children have had issues that VT will help and which haven't. Right now it's two of each. It's nice to have a specialist I can really trust.)

 

The np also told us she would have recommended OT if dd had been younger, but she thought dd's energies would be better spent addressing other issues since she was almost off to college.

[Tiramisu]

OP, thanks for posting this. I could never get one of my children to do the writing 8's. She didn't have reversals past age 8 but she started letters in the wrong places and in the wrong direction, and no instructions ever helped. VT did help with her because she had convergence insufficiency and a tracking problem.

 

I've been wanting to start dd9 on the 8's, but she's not in an agreeable state of mind right now and I've wondered if it would be worth it to use her energies this way. I am planning on doing VT with her. He has convergence excess, accommodative insufficiency, and a tracking problem. We have pretty well confirmed with an OT that she has no visual processing or motor/coordination problems so maybe she will be a good candidate...if I can get her to do it. VT made my agreeable child disagreeable so I hate to think of starting it with one who hasn't been agreeable lately.

[geodob]

While 'writing 8's' has been discussed.

What are we actually talking about?

Where this is actually a graduated process from 'gross motor' to 'fine motor'.

Which begins with using the whole arm as the 'pen'.

So that direction of movement is established at a gross motor level.

But perhaps I could ask you to simply fully extend your arm on front of you?

Then think of different Letters, and try to form them with your fully extended arm?

 

Then compare this with writing those same letters on a page with a pen?

How you can really feel their formation, when it comes to forming from your shoulder ?

As opposed to writing them on paper.

 

While the shoulder might seem far away from the fingers?

It is the primary foundation and director of the fingers.