Question about Graduating REALLY Early

Junie · May 26, 2015

Just to be up front: I'm not challenging anyone who graduates their kids early!

As a former high school English teacher, I'm wondering what kind of literature a 10/11/12-year-old high school graduate would have read?

I get it that some kids are super smart, but I'm wondering about the appropriateness of some of the more mature themes that are covered in most high school lit classes.

Just really curious about how this is handled.

EndOfOrdinary · May 26, 2015

My eight year old began going into his father's Sophmore English classes for book discussions. He read the same books they did and had to transfer up to honors class discussions because the Sophmores were uncomfortable with Ds' participation level. The books that year were Fahrenheit 451, Animal Farm, Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, the Odyessey, and the Epic of Gilgamesh.

He has been interested in political, social, and cultural power dynamics since somewhere around 6. He is now 10 and has cycled through many books a couple of times, but in general has completed most high school reading lists adequately to have graduated. His essays and papershave been graded by non family high school English teachers for the last three years.

Ds is planning on either going Ivy at 18, or holding off graduation until 15 and living in the dorms of a highly ranked private LAC which is local.

As for appropriateness, I have found my son's asynchrony interesting. He found Call of the Wild very disturbing and far too intense because it dealt with animals within the style of Naturalism. This was such a contrast to Animal Farm which he loved due to the allegory. With Call of the Wild, he spent more time looking into Jack London's socialism views rather than focusing on the direct story since it bothered him. This has happened in other places as well - a typically seen early literature read is far more disturbing than on supposedly for older individuals. He enjoyed MacBeth due to the strength of Lady MacBeth and the balance of power shown in MacBeth's frailty, but was truly unnerved by Romeo and Juliet's terrible treatment of women an messages to young men about sex and strength through violence.

More Shakespeare is happening in two years (around twelve) since so much is about relationships. He has already read Hamlet and MacBeth, but he did not get an entire side of the stories due to a lack of personal experience. He can tell you about the relationship dynamics, but they do not have the same meaning. This is also true of much Jane Austin. He gets frustrated with her writing because of the mysogyny of the time and how very many class issues existed. It us not a love story for him in the same sense. They are period pieces from history.

We have never sensored his reading in any way. He reads what he is interested in. If it bothers him, we discuss it. His desire to be active in politics and social issues hit at four, so he is far more aware than many kids his age due to all his political and non profit work. Some days it is Winnie the Pooh. Some days it is Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Some Malthus. He will read aboutsomeone he has not heard of and then Google it for a digital book or put it on hold at the library.

So to some degree, the literature is the way it is for everyone else - as you grow and change the stories take on whole new meaning. I can tell you right now he has read more Clasics and historical pieces (Herodotus, Bible, Quran, Livy, Book of the Dead, Odu Ifa, etc) than most of the adults I have known. So the reading list is different, but no less worthy of graduation credit. If he chooses to wait until 18 for college, he knows he will be rereading a lot. It doesn't bother him.

Gil · May 26, 2015

I have no BTDT experience, but I did seriously consider VERY early graduation for my sons. Honestly literature themes aren't that big of a deal to me. Different people will have different tolerances for things based on their values. I would never a hold a child back from graduating and moving on with their academic life because they hadn't read "popular book list."

College graduates are not nearly as well read as some people seem to suspect. I know a person who graduated with a lit major who didn't know about Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, she didn't know that Sherlock Holmes was a book. That allayed all my fears about "literature" study right there.

EndOfOrdinary · May 26, 2015

I have no BTDT experience, but I did seriously consider VERY early graduation for my sons. Honestly literature themes aren't that big of a deal to me. Different people will have different tolerances for things based on their values. I would never a hold a child back from graduating and moving on with their academic life because they hadn't read "popular book list."

College graduates are not nearly as well read as some people seem to suspect. I know a person who graduated with a lit major who didn't know about Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, she didn't know that Sherlock Holmes was a book. That allayed all my fears about "literature" study right there.

My husband has a Masters degree in English education and my son has read more classics than Dh has. Dh specialized in environmental literature. It greatly helped me to realize the supposed idea of one, great list was a bunch of cultural mythology. Being able to discuss the books, find life within the books, hear the author and see the time period as both an extension of our larger story and a moment in personal experience are what is important. Not a list.

Junie · May 26, 2015

Thank you both for your answers!

I've seen several news reports (and there are some every year), about kids who graduate from high school at young ages.

I understood how some kids could advance in math or science, but I was baffled about literature.

EndOfOrdinary -- when you said "asynchrony", I thought "of course!" I had never thought about the fact that some kids would be able to comprehend adult literature so early.

Most of my kids are voracious readers, but none of them is reading above what would be considered typical for their age.

Gil -- amazing that this lit major didn't know about Huck Finn. It makes me wonder about the college. And you're right -- if a kid is ready to graduate, literature should not be the roadblock.

EndOfOrdinary · May 26, 2015

There was a list that circulated on Facebook awhile ago that listed what is generally considered high school reading list books. The average person had read only maybe ten of themout of the lost of seventy five or something. This shocked me, but then when I thought about it, those ten were probably in high school and then the person just stopped reading anything they didn't find fun. My son finds academic literarure fun. He was stuck on Ancients for years. I have convincd him to move on to Greeks next year thankfully. The Ancients years meant that he just went a bit crazy with depth. He spent a chunk of time on Shalespeare in the same obsessive trip. Some kids go gaga over sports, mine does it with literature and Classics.

You migth actually be amazes at what your kids get out of many books, though. They are very perceptiveeven if they initially do not have the vocab to express themselves.

Junie · May 26, 2015

There was a list that circulated on Facebook awhile ago that listed what is generally considered high school reading list books. The average person had read only maybe ten of themout of the lost of seventy five or something. This shocked me, but then when I thought about it, those ten were probably in high school and then the person just stopped reading anything they didn't find fun. My son finds academic literarure fun. He was stuck on Ancients for years. I have convincd him to move on to Greeks next year thankfully. The Ancients years meant that he just went a bit crazy with depth. He spent a chunk of time on Shalespeare in the same obsessive trip. Some kids go gaga over sports, mine does it with literature and Classics.

You migth actually be amazes at what your kids get out of many books, though. They are very perceptiveeven if they initially do not have the vocab to express themselves.

My ds14 is like this with history. He gobbles it up. As for literature, he likes the classic stories, but he prefers the children's versions. He doesn't like to work through the language to get the story. Sigh. I'm working on him... :)

Unfortunately, I don't read as much classic literature as I would like to. I have a hard time concentrating on it with all of the activity going on around me.

ETA: Your son has an impressive reading list!

Momling · May 26, 2015

You might just explore what books are assigned at your local high school. There are also plenty of lists online: http://www.perfectionlearning.com/top%20100-american-lit-titles

Dmmetler · May 26, 2015

It also can be the case that kids start college early, but may not do a standard course sequence, saving more problematic courses for later. DD10 took (via audit because we were able to take advantage of a program designed for senior citizens to get access to college classes w/o requiring prerequistites and with free tuition) her first college classes in zoology at age 8. She has had a rather interesting history and literature path because she is very emotionally intense, and stuff that's too close to home really gets to her deeply, so we've done older history at a much more intense level and done a lot of earlier classical literature, but more modern fantasy and Sci-fi. In many respects, she can handle a lot of classical lit better than she can handle contemporary YA stuff. I know that at my college I could have fulfilled the English distribution requirements without necessarily taking the more "intense" courses-and if DD goes the full-time college route, it wouldn't bother me to see her take courses that would avoid stuff that isn't right for her then, because ultimately, it doesn't matter when you read a book-what matters is that you understand and have read it. She's not ready for "I know why the Caged Bird Sings" now-but that won't be the case forever.

At this point, I don't know when she'll graduate and start college for credit. Two years ago, I thought we were on an early college trajectory-it just made sense. Now, at age 10 she is deeply involved in research, education and outreach in her desired areas, and her need to push so intensely in other areas to make college seem necessary is much less. It's so dependent on what is available in your area.

Bluegoat · May 26, 2015

I rather wonder if there are many really young people who manage degrees in history or literature as, say, pre-teens. My suspicion would be that many study things like mathematics or science.

I know that in the case of child prodigies, some areas tend to have few or none. Writing is apparently an area where there are few true prodigies - even very talented children produce writing that is distinctly childish. I think you would likely see that reflected the other way as well, in what they were able to get out of adult literature.

I wouldn't have a problem "graduating" a child from high school, but I guess my question would be, what would I do with her then? I doubt I would send her to most of the literature classes I took in university. I'm not even sure that would be fair to the other students.

Gil · May 26, 2015

Gil -- amazing that this lit major didn't know about Huck Finn. It makes me wonder about the college. And you're right -- if a kid is ready to graduate, literature should not be the roadblock.

Why? It isn't so much a case of this being "someones fault". Holmes and Huck aren't vital--its not like at some point someone should have discovered she hadn't read Huck and Holmes and remediated the gap. She can read--and read well. She's a good writer (I suppose) she just hadn't read those (or many other classic) books, despite being considered a bookworm. Name 100 popular Books, TV shows, movies or music albums from the last 8 years and I'll probably not have watched/listened to 90% of them.

The truth of the matter is not every person is going to value the same genres or be interested in reading the same books. You can read a ton and miss out on the "classics" completely. I was never required to read those books--and hundreds others like them--during the course of my K-12 or college education. Neither were the 700+ kids who went to school with me.

Most US educated people will simply not meet a Classical Educators definition of "well read" it doesn't mean that person hasn't read widely--just means that they have read different things. Someone who has read most of the NYT best sellers from the last 10 or 15 years will have missed out on the classics.

My surprise came from the fact that though they are both common and popular works in our culture and some way she'd grown up without even knowing that they were books to be read. When she saw a derivative work such as a movie about them---She watched The Great Mouse Detective and Tom and Huck when she was growing up--she didn't know the significance of what she was looking at.

She's American, raised in America, attending (fairly good) American public schools. She was the "book worm" in the family. Her parents and grandparents weren't "readers" and certainly not of classics by Dead White Men. They read materials they deemed important and worthwhile, bought childrens books for her since she was the "book worm" who loved to read, her family didn't visit the public library much at all.

The elementary schools had all of their books labeled by grade level and kids read within their level. When schools give kids book lists to pick their reading material from kids do just that--pick their own reading material. Huck Finn is a book thats challenged so probably wasn't in her PS school library anyway. In highschool English classes they used textbook anthologies and read plays and excerpts from those textbooks and had shorter lists of harder books from which to choose their assigned reading from.

In college, you buy an anthology for Lit 101 that has 1000+ pages with different plays/short stories/ballads/poems/etc and no professor is going to expect their class to read and discuss them all in 15 weeks. After that, for each literature class after that you are assigned specific books at specific times and those books--and only those books--are required to be read, studied and discussed in the class.

I could care less about specific genres or classic series not being well known to a lit major. Its far more shocking to me the widespread inability of many college graduates to read fluently, write well, or correctly perform straight-forward calculations on a 6th grade level or even think.

Junie · May 26, 2015

Why? It isn't so much a case of this being "someones fault". Holmes and Huck aren't vital--its not like at some point someone should have discovered she hadn't read Huck and Holmes and remediated the gap. She can read--and read well. She's a good writer (I suppose) she just hadn't read those (or many other classic) books, despite being considered a bookworm. Name 100 popular Books, TV shows, movies or music albums from the last 8 years and I'll probably not have watched/listened to 90% of them.

The truth of the matter is not every person is going to value the same genres or be interested in reading the same books. You can read a ton and miss out on the "classics" completely. I was never required to read those books--and hundreds others like them--during the course of my K-12 or college education. Neither were the 700+ kids who went to school with me.

Most US educated people will simply not meet a Classical Educators definition of "well read" it doesn't mean that person hasn't read widely--just means that they have read different things. Someone who has read most of the NYT best sellers from the last 10 or 15 years will have missed out on the classics.

My surprise came from the fact that though they are both common and popular works in our culture and some way she'd grown up without even knowing that they were books to be read. When she saw a derivative work such as a movie about them---She watched The Great Mouse Detective and Tom and Huck when she was growing up--she didn't know the significance of what she was looking at.

She's American, raised in America, attending (fairly good) American public schools. She was the "book worm" in the family. Her parents and grandparents weren't "readers" and certainly not of classics by Dead White Men. They read materials they deemed important and worthwhile, bought childrens books for her since she was the "book worm" who loved to read, her family didn't visit the public library much at all.

The elementary schools had all of their books labeled by grade level and kids read within their level. When schools give kids book lists to pick their reading material from kids do just that--pick their own reading material. Huck Finn is a book thats challenged so probably wasn't in her PS school library anyway. In highschool English classes they used textbook anthologies and read plays and excerpts from those textbooks and had shorter lists of harder books from which to choose their assigned reading from.

In college, you buy an anthology for Lit 101 that has 1000+ pages with different plays/short stories/ballads/poems/etc and no professor is going to expect their class to read and discuss them all in 15 weeks. After that, for each literature class after that you are assigned specific books at specific times and those books--and only those books--are required to be read, studied and discussed in the class.

I could care less about specific genres or classic series not being well known to a lit major. Its far more shocking to me the widespread inability of many college graduates to read fluently, write well, or correctly perform straight-forward calculations on a 6th grade level or even think.

I agree! I understand that literature is a field in which it is virtually impossible to read/study everything. However, I said that I wondered about the college because I think that Huck Finn is considered "important" American literature by enough people and that a student graduating with a literature degree should have at least heard of it. I'm not faulting the student; Most lit majors are required to take at least one semester of American Literature. I would hope that Twain would at least be mentioned, even if his works weren't read.

Concerning your last statement, I agree completely.

Dmmetler · May 26, 2015

I rather wonder if there are many really young people who manage degrees in history or literature as, say, pre-teens. My suspicion would be that many study things like mathematics or science.

I know that in the case of child prodigies, some areas tend to have few or none. Writing is apparently an area where there are few true prodigies - even very talented children produce writing that is distinctly childish. I think you would likely see that reflected the other way as well, in what they were able to get out of adult literature.

I wouldn't have a problem "graduating" a child from high school, but I guess my question would be, what would I do with her then? I doubt I would send her to most of the literature classes I took in university. I'm not even sure that would be fair to the other students.

I'm kind of hoping Jenny in Florida weighs in, since her DD did a theater degree starting at age 12, and that requires a substantial body of literary knowledge.

I also think that, outside the homeschool world, part of that is that math is one of the few areas that it's really "allowed" for kids to accelerate in. My cover school won't give any high school credit before 9th grade except for math and foreign language, no matter how advanced the coursework is, even if it's an outside, credit-worthy class with exams and credentials (I'm actually planning to have my DD start taking CLEP and AP exams for stuff she's ready for them in starting this coming year just to prove that she's done the work at a high school level). In PS, I regularly tutored kids who were doing Algebra 1 and sometimes higher in elementary school-but it was the ONLY area that kids were allowed to be actually grade accelerated in without doing a full-grade skip. I also can't think of any kid who got full-grade skips without being very, very advanced in math. The kids who were reading way above grade level mostly just read above grade level, and that would also cover those kids interested in humanities disciplines. (I'm thinking of my brother, who did a 4th grade book report on The Psychopathic God:Adolph Hitler-which didn't get him into advanced history courses, but DID get a strong statement from the school to my parents about their concern for his psychiatric health).

Add that a lot of access to early college is based on ACT/SAT scores-which are going to be biased to people who are strong in math and in details (a lot of math kids I know are good in grammar/vocab as well because they're so good at picking up patterns), but doesn't really have a place to show skills in literary analysis, and there's a definite bias towards kids who are advanced in math being those who end up able to go into college extremely early, and it's not unreasonable that a lot of those would end up in STEM majors.

shawthorne44 · May 26, 2015

I don't see any reason for literature to be a problem for a young college student. My personal opinion is that the books really out there shouldn't be in the class regardless.

I graduated at the normal age, although I pined for college. Literally. Starting at 9 in summers I'd walk 3 miles to the bookstore of the major university to read and covet the books. I can only think of a two books in college that I couldn't have handled at 12. Actually, even those I probably could have handled those just as well. A disgusting book is a disgusting book no matter what your age. College professors seem to use those as a short-cut to seem trendy or thought-provoking or something.

Note, I'm STEM person.

Junie · May 27, 2015

I don't see any reason for literature to be a problem for a young college student. My personal opinion is that the books really out there shouldn't be in the class regardless.

I graduated at the normal age, although I pined for college. Literally. Starting at 9 in summers I'd walk 3 miles to the bookstore of the major university to read and covet the books. I can only think of a two books in college that I couldn't have handled at 12. Actually, even those I probably could have handled those just as well. A disgusting book is a disgusting book no matter what your age. College professors seem to use those as a short-cut to seem trendy or thought-provoking or something.

Note, I'm STEM person.

I think the issue here is maturity. A child who is really good at math does not need to be mature. However, handling pieces such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" (which ds14 is currently reading) would not be ok in the hands of my dd10.

EndOfOrdinary · May 27, 2015

I think the issue here is maturity. A child who is really good at math does not need to be mature. However, handling pieces such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" (which ds14 is currently reading) would not be ok in the hands of my dd10.

I think you might be amazed if your ten year old could not significantly both understand and handle To Kill A Mockingbird. That is a standard 7th grade book in all three school districts which I have taught. As parents we like to shield our children, so really it is us who cannot handle it. As soon as I let go of the idea that my son couldn't "get it" and really listened to him, i realized what he got was different from me, but equally valid. If your ten. Year old does not know about racism or social heirarchy, you are doing them a significant disservice. Theydo not need to see bodies swinging from trees, but with the number of current events, current president, and just basic U.S. history thye should be aware enough to get quite a lot out of the book.

As for math, I was a math teacher. Significantly more maturity is required if a student is going to actually understand math and not cruntch numbers.

lewelma · May 27, 2015

My ds(14) is a serious mathy kid. However, he is also a reader. If he had been more humanities oriented, we could have done an awful lot with what he read by his 13th birthday. As you were an English teacher, I thought a specific list might help you see the possiblities, so the following list is what my older ds read from age 9 to 12. My 11 year old is currently reading some Kurt Vonnegut. :001_smile:

Alice and wonderland,

through the looking glass,
wind and the willows,
gulliver's travels
tom sawyer,

prince and the pauper,

Connecticut yankee
robin hood,
kidnapped,

the black arrow,

around the world in 80 days,
sherlock holmes,

the white company
robinson cruseo
journey to the center of the earth,

20000 leagues under the sea,

master of the world
princess of mars and sequels,
I robot,

Foundation series
swiss family robinson,
peter pan,
eagle of the ninth and sequels
time machine,

war of the worlds
my family and other animals,

all creatures great and small, and others by James Herriot
age of fable,
call of the wild,

white fang,
frankenstein,
titus groan and sequels (!!),
captains courageous,
tanglewood tales,
Lord of the rings,
sword in the stone and sequels,
christmas carol,
dune
The lensmen
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde
Golden compass and sequels
Wrinkle in time and sequels
Earthsea and sequels
Ivanhoe,

Joan of Arc (Twain),

Sir Gwain and the Green Knight,

Tarzan,

Agatha Crystie
Three Muskateers
Count of Monte Cristo
Coral Island, Ballantyne
Autobiography of Fredrick Douglas
Huck Finn
Pudd'nhead Wilson
Gift of the Magi (and others), O Henry

To Kill a Mockingbird

Animal farm

Moby Dick

Turn of the Screw

The Birthmark

Picture of Dorian Grey

Cats Cradle

We

At age 13 and 14 he is reading things like The Luminaries, Wolf Hall, Tinker talor Soldier Spy, Master and Margarita, and Brothers Karamazov. So many books.....so little time!

Ruth in NZ

Junie · May 27, 2015

lewelma,

Thank you for the list. Some of these dd12 and ds14 have read. I haven't read all of them myself, so I can't speak of the list in its entirety, but I think that a many of them would be appropriate for middle school and above for "average" lit kids. For upper elementary, I'm not sure that the average kid would be ready for them. (Maybe I am underestimating them, but I know that my kids would not be ready for most of these at age 9 or 10.) For my kids, interest is a big factor. Ds14 would much rather read non-fiction.

Junie · May 27, 2015

I think you might be amazed if your ten year old could not significantly both understand and handle To Kill A Mockingbird. That is a standard 7th grade book in all three school districts which I have taught. As parents we like to shield our children, so really it is us who cannot handle it. As soon as I let go of the idea that my son couldn't "get it" and really listened to him, i realized what he got was different from me, but equally valid. If your ten. Year old does not know about racism or social heirarchy, you are doing them a significant disservice. Theydo not need to see bodies swinging from trees, but with the number of current events, current president, and just basic U.S. history thye should be aware enough to get quite a lot out of the book.

As for math, I was a math teacher. Significantly more maturity is required if a student is going to actually understand math and not cruntch numbers.

First of all, an apology. When I said that maturity was not needed for math, I misspoke. Advanced math requires maturity, but it is a different kind of maturity than needed for literature.

The bolded section is very true; I was thinking of this even before I read your post. I have already "let go" more than what I am comfortable with for ds14, because I know that there are things that we need to know about in this world. I went to a Christian college and some of the students who had attended Christian school or who were homeschooled in certain environments were so naive that it was scary. I don't want that for my kids; on the other hand, I don't want my kids exposed to all of the things I was exposed to in public high school. I'm still working on finding my balance.

My dd10 is maturing more slowly than her older siblings, so she is completely not ready for things like To Kill a Mockingbird or even The Hobbit. She is not emotionally ready to handle anything ugly/evil yet. DD12 has the maturity to understand the material (she doesn't know what rape is yet, but that conversation needs to be held soon anyway), but the real problem for her is that she doesn't have the maturity to care what the book is about. Not that she doesn't care about the issues, but she doesn't read to learn/experience. She just loves to read good stories. She doesn't want to think about them.

I had never thought that some kids would gain this maturity sooner than others, and thus be able to graduate super early, but it makes sense. It just won't happen for my kids.

edited to fix a typo.

leeannpal · May 27, 2015

I think you might be amazed if your ten year old could not significantly both understand and handle To Kill A Mockingbird. That is a standard 7th grade book in all three school districts which I have taught. As parents we like to shield our children, so really it is us who cannot handle it. As soon as I let go of the idea that my son couldn't "get it" and really listened to him, i realized what he got was different from me, but equally valid. If your ten. Year old does not know about racism or social heirarchy, you are doing them a significant disservice. Theydo not need to see bodies swinging from trees, but with the number of current events, current president, and just basic U.S. history thye should be aware enough to get quite a lot out of the book.

As for math, I was a math teacher. Significantly more maturity is required if a student is going to actually understand math and not cruntch numbers.

I am a middle and high school English teacher and would tend to disagree that most 10 years olds have the ability to handle abstract ideas such as racism, classism and poverty that are clearly portrayed in To Kill A Mockingbird. I know that I re-read several books that I originally read in high school and found that I gained much more from them after going through significant life circumstances. Most 10 year olds simply haven't experienced the world enough to truly get these concepts except at a very superficial level. And, I would very much disagree with To Kill a Mockingbird as a middle school book.

raptor_dad · May 28, 2015

I am a middle and high school English teacher and would tend to disagree that most 10 years olds have the ability to handle abstract ideas such as racism, classism and poverty that are clearly portrayed in To Kill A Mockingbird. I know that I re-read several books that I originally read in high school and found that I gained much more from them after going through significant life circumstances. Most 10 year olds simply haven't experienced the world enough to truly get these concepts except at a very superficial level. And, I would very much disagree with To Kill a Mockingbird as a middle school book.

I'm going to ignore the 10yo thing as a strawman...

As a 12yo 7th grader in a low performing public school, I remember reading "To Kill a Mockingbird". I also remember a first semester history paper on civil rights movements.... I think the teacher expected a 3 or 4 page paper on the peaceful civil rights protests... I wrote a 30+ page paper on the AIM based on Brown's "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and Matthiesen's recently released "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse" and plenty of other primary references. Spring semester we were supposed to write on an artist. I wrote a 40 page parallel biography of Janis Joplin, Lenny Bruce, and Phil Ochs linking their tragic lives to various antecedents like the Free Speech Movement, the pacifist movement, end early feminism... In retrospect, I'm sure those papers were hopelessly naive. However, I doubt they were superficial. Kids can grasp more than people give them credit for.

PS: The next year the school switched over to a more "sensitive", "developmentally appropriate" middle school model and got rid of tracking and instituted teams etc etc... so I spent 8th grade neglecting to do the assigned worksheets and read the pablum that was assigned. Everyone was puzzled how I got all D's that year but suddenly went back to being a 4.0 student in high school ;)

raptor_dad · May 28, 2015

I think you might be amazed if your ten year old could not significantly both understand and handle To Kill A Mockingbird. That is a standard 7th grade book in all three school districts which I have taught. As parents we like to shield our children, so really it is us who cannot handle it. As soon as I let go of the idea that my son couldn't "get it" and really listened to him, i realized what he got was different from me, but equally valid. If your ten. Year old does not know about racism or social heirarchy, you are doing them a significant disservice. Theydo not need to see bodies swinging from trees, but with the number of current events, current president, and just basic U.S. history thye should be aware enough to get quite a lot out of the book.

I agree and I don't think the themes should be such a shock. Among the Newbery Awards, Lenski's "Strawberry Girl" has plenty of poverty and class issues, George's "Julie of the Wolves" touches on race and poverty and has an attempted rape scene. Both of those books are recommended for age 8+. Plenty of other Newbery award and honor books hit these themes... off hand there is a book on Marian Anderson and "The Watsons go to Birmingham". Unless you have been shielding your kids reading, they should have encountered many of these themes multiple times by 7th grade... or if they are accelerated by age 10.

Junie · May 28, 2015

I think that part of the problem is that the 10-12 year old maturing process is a spectrum. Some children mature much more quickly than others. My dd12 is often mistaken for ds14's twin sister, but my dd10 is only slightly more mature than my dd8. In school, you have to teach to the middle of the spectrum. However, with homeschool I can allow dd10 to enjoy her journey over the rainbow a little bit longer...

Tsuga · May 28, 2015

I think the thing about literature is that while some gifted children have the ability to handle the abstract thought, the themes require a breadth of life experience that almost no children have, to really "get". This is the difference between math/theoretical science, and the humanities.

In the humanities, the "what" matters. You can't just move the objects around within the ontology to get a result. You need to really, deeply understand the objects of study.

Whereas in math in particular, you don't have to know anything about the external world. You just need to know the system. It doesn't have to reference anything, really. It is a theoretical system and you can pretend it's about anything.

I suspect this is a big reason we will see math and chess prodigies, but humanities prodigies are hard to find. You simply cannot learn the subject matter in so short a time. Math and chess are systems. There are no qualia to deal with, so to speak. It's pure system. A bright child can get it. No matter how bright, though, most children cannot "get" romantic love. It's not just that they can't get all the words. Those words have meanings that must be lived.

That said, it is possible to do really good work if you can find material with which the child is familiar. In fact... when I was little I was in fact recognized in the humanities. But the concepts I had to work with were very simple because I was so little.

I think it's like... imagine someone doing theoretical physics from home. You could see that. But if someone said they were doing PhD level biology, you'd be like, "No. They aren't." Because you can't DO that at home. You don't have access to the materials, period. You just do not. No matter how hard you try. In those cases, yes, it does seem unbelievable that a gifted child would be doing college level work at home.

I feel that way about the humanities. I do believe that children can be that gifted in the humanities. I do not believe that a gifted child can exhibit / practice all of that talent at home in every field because I think some of those fields are more about a conversation, a living process, than about mastering one specific process. Again, I'm not doubting the kids' capacities for abstract and complex thought. What I doubt is that a child could, at home, replicate the living, ongoing scientific process that is necessary for a lot of college-level material.

But for high school... tough call. I think a lot of high school humanities work is actually inappropriate. Not morally so, but because kids just don't get a lot of that stuff. Because they haven't lived it and unlike astronomy, in which you can look from afar, the humanities involves thousands of complex sensory experiences that you need to live up close and personal. You can't zoom through that. You can't zoom through the broken heart, the longing, the fear, the hate. You can work with those words but you can't work with the objects.

This is also why some people despise the humanities. They don't get it. They don't get that in math, you draw a conceptual bridge, and you describe all those relationships, but it's all theory. In the humanities, you have to build the bridge. It always looks uglier. It's more prone to breaking. But it's a real bridge. Physics is somewhat in between, but for most of physics, they deal with theoretical, perfect systems, with limited variables. So it's like building that bridge, but not over a river--just, in a vacuum.

That is why I like social sciences. You have to deal with reality, with the most complex objects, the human brain, every day, in your calculation. You get the science, the math, and the qualia of these incredibly complex beings who fall in love and act irrationally and surprise you all the time.

The conclusions might look stupid, but that's only because we are testing common sense. In some cases, common sense is bound to be right. And when we cannot reject the null hypothesis, nobody believes us, because it's rejecting common sense. But that's beside the point... the point is, I don't think it's easy to be a child who is gifted in the humanities. I also don't know what it means to be ready for college when you're only gifted in 3/5 areas in which you will be accepted to perform in college.

I do think it's a great question, though.

Bluegoat · May 28, 2015

I'm kind of hoping Jenny in Florida weighs in, since her DD did a theater degree starting at age 12, and that requires a substantial body of literary knowledge.

I also think that, outside the homeschool world, part of that is that math is one of the few areas that it's really "allowed" for kids to accelerate in. My cover school won't give any high school credit before 9th grade except for math and foreign language, no matter how advanced the coursework is, even if it's an outside, credit-worthy class with exams and credentials (I'm actually planning to have my DD start taking CLEP and AP exams for stuff she's ready for them in starting this coming year just to prove that she's done the work at a high school level). In PS, I regularly tutored kids who were doing Algebra 1 and sometimes higher in elementary school-but it was the ONLY area that kids were allowed to be actually grade accelerated in without doing a full-grade skip. I also can't think of any kid who got full-grade skips without being very, very advanced in math. The kids who were reading way above grade level mostly just read above grade level, and that would also cover those kids interested in humanities disciplines. (I'm thinking of my brother, who did a 4th grade book report on The Psychopathic God:Adolph Hitler-which didn't get him into advanced history courses, but DID get a strong statement from the school to my parents about their concern for his psychiatric health).

Add that a lot of access to early college is based on ACT/SAT scores-which are going to be biased to people who are strong in math and in details (a lot of math kids I know are good in grammar/vocab as well because they're so good at picking up patterns), but doesn't really have a place to show skills in literary analysis, and there's a definite bias towards kids who are advanced in math being those who end up able to go into college extremely early, and it's not unreasonable that a lot of those would end up in STEM majors.

Perhaps this might be some of teh reason, but TBH I don't think it is the major reason. For one thing, I'm not particularly restricting my observations to the present, and I don't even live in the US, I'm in Canada, and SATs aren't part of our university requirements. (Heck, I have a frimd from university who got accepted without SATs or a high school diploma.)

Mathematics is typically a young discipline. Even among mathematicians, their younger years - in their 20s - are often the ones where they have the most really interesting new ideas and breakthroughs, and are most productive.

Literature and history on the other hand are mature disciplines - most of the best work produced tends to be much later in life.

Bluegoat · May 28, 2015

I really would not consider that because a ten year old, or a teen for that matter, could read "To Kill A Mockingbird", or even something like "The Canterbury Tales," that he would be ready for university level literature classes. And it isn't because the books being chosen by the profs are "disgusting".

Last Spring I did a seminar, for fun, with some friends and some grad students and one of my old university professors. We read Tom Jones and Mansfield Park, hardly "disgusting" books though some might think Tom Jones inappropriate for a ten year old. But this is classic, canonical literature.

But I can say that the discussion was probably at some points not appropriate for a 10 year old, and no child that age, no matter how advanced, was going to be able to really relate to the very adult themes that were under discussion. And had a ten year old been in the class, it would have had an impact on the discussion - there are some things that might not have been explored because you can't talk that way to some other person's child.

Iit might be possible to pick university level literature courses carefully and find something that could not potentially be inappropriate, but TBH I think it would be rather difficult - most books are going to potentially have problems of that kind for a child participating in an adult conversation.

There are plenty of adult books that could be read with enjoyment and benefit by younger people, at 10 or 13 or 15. But they are not likely to be reading, say, Death in Venice before about 16, and there are lots of other significant books that will be closed to them until they are more mature. And even the adult discussions of books that could work might be a problem in a university setting.

Gil · May 28, 2015

I think the issue here is maturity. A child who is really good at math does not need to be mature. However, handling pieces such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" (which ds14 is currently reading) would not be ok in the hands of my dd10.

I disagree completely about math. Mathematics as a discipline requires mental sophistication, flexibility and maturity. I do not know your child so if you say that she can't handle To Kill a Mockingbird, I believe you, but I encourage you to understand what it is that she isn't supposed to be able to handle because the themes in To Kill a Mockingbird--such as racism, classism, justice, morality, poverty and social codes that are unwritten but strictly adhered to--are prevelent in our society and at least some of those themes will be included in and reflect in much of our media today and even in our interactions with others.

Gil · May 28, 2015

I am a middle and high school English teacher and would tend to disagree that most 10 years olds have the ability to handle abstract ideas such as racism, classism and poverty that are clearly portrayed in To Kill A Mockingbird. I know that I re-read several books that I originally read in high school and found that I gained much more from them after going through significant life circumstances. Most 10 year olds simply haven't experienced the world enough to truly get these concepts except at a very superficial level. And, I would very much disagree with To Kill a Mockingbird as a middle school book.

Those are not "abstract ideas"--racism, classism and poverty(/wealth)--not to the hundreds of millions of people in this world who live that reality. Kids are naturally ignorant, not naturally idiots.

They observe, live and understand those "abstract" concepts and discussing them just helps them put words to what they know from continued, first hand experience that is their entire life.

Junie · May 28, 2015

I agree and I don't think the themes should be such a shock. Among the Newbery Awards, Lenski's "Strawberry Girl" has plenty of poverty and class issues, George's "Julie of the Wolves" touches on race and poverty and has an attempted rape scene. Both of those books are recommended for age 8+. Plenty of other Newbery award and honor books hit these themes... off hand there is a book on Marian Anderson and "The Watsons go to Birmingham". Unless you have been shielding your kids reading, they should have encountered many of these themes multiple times by 7th grade... or if they are accelerated by age 10.

Raptor Dad,

I wrote out a reply to you last night, but the internet connection died on me just before it posted. So, trying again.

Yes, I have been shielding my kids and gently easing them into more mature topics. I am pushing ds14 a little bit harder now so that he will be emotionally ready for college when he is academically ready (probably at age 16). Dd12 wants more mature books, but she doesn't like discussion, so I am purposely holding some things back from her until she is ready to think about what she is reading on a different level. Hopefully this will happen soon. If not, I may have to intervene.

Interesting that you mentioned Newbery books, as this is the focus of dd10's literature next year. :) I have not settled on exactly which books to offer. This is actually on my to-do list for this week. She read Strawberry Girl a few weeks ago when she saw it sitting around. She is smart, but she is very immature for her age. As she is also small for her age, we are ok. People probably think that she is 8 or 9 -- not almost 11.

Thank you for your ideas.

Dmmetler · May 28, 2015

I think the thing about literature is that while some gifted children have the ability to handle the abstract thought, the themes require a breadth of life experience that almost no children have, to really "get". This is the difference between math/theoretical science, and the humanities.

In the humanities, the "what" matters. You can't just move the objects around within the ontology to get a result. You need to really, deeply understand the objects of study.

Whereas in math in particular, you don't have to know anything about the external world. You just need to know the system. It doesn't have to reference anything, really. It is a theoretical system and you can pretend it's about anything.

I suspect this is a big reason we will see math and chess prodigies, but humanities prodigies are hard to find. You simply cannot learn the subject matter in so short a time. Math and chess are systems. There are no qualia to deal with, so to speak. It's pure system. A bright child can get it. No matter how bright, though, most children cannot "get" romantic love. It's not just that they can't get all the words. Those words have meanings that must be lived.

That said, it is possible to do really good work if you can find material with which the child is familiar. In fact... when I was little I was in fact recognized in the humanities. But the concepts I had to work with were very simple because I was so little.

I think it's like... imagine someone doing theoretical physics from home. You could see that. But if someone said they were doing PhD level biology, you'd be like, "No. They aren't." Because you can't DO that at home. You don't have access to the materials, period. You just do not. No matter how hard you try. In those cases, yes, it does seem unbelievable that a gifted child would be doing college level work at home.

---

At the same time, though, isn't this WHY some kids need to go to college early? I mean, the only thing that pulled us off an early college path with my DD was that she got access to college and even grad level resources without going to college full-time. The fact is, her completely independent work that she can do at home is pretty juvenile and simplistic-things like creating backyard test ponds with different numbers of hours of sunlight and amounts of plant coverage, and seeing which creatures colonize them. What she can do in the lab is much more detailed, but the reason is that she has access to the same sort of resources that normally are available in grad school (and in a few undergrad programs that are strong on research. It's not that she's doing it at home-it's that she's working on potentially publishable work without being required to enter college full-time, which, frankly, probably wouldn't be made available for her were it not so obviously the case that she's NOT ready for college in many areas outside of biology!

I truly believe that dual enrollment, if you're in an area where it's available, is likely to be a better fit for many gifted kids than radical acceleration across the board. And that maybe, just maybe, if dual enrollment and partial acceleration were made more available, we might see more kids who are advanced in the humanities who turn out exceptional, mature work while still being immature in other areas.

Dmmetler · May 28, 2015

Also, I think it's a mistake to assume that because a child gets a different perspective on a book that they don't understand the deeper themes and meanings. In some cases, it's the opposite-that BECAUSE they have less and different life experiences that they see them more deeply and are less able to reconcile choices made. It's a different view, not a lesser one. It's true that if I read a book such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" now, I see it differently than I did when I first read it-but that doesn't make my views of the book less valid. In many respects, TKAM is one book that reading it first when you're seeing it from the viewpoint of a precocious child because you ARE a precocious child really adds a lot-because that's how it's written. It's not written from the point of view of Atticus Finch, crusader for justice while also being very aware how the world works, but through the point of view of Scout. Mindset-wise, my DD can understand Scout at age 10 better than she can understand Atticus. And she can learn and grow WITH Scout.

There's a reason why tear jerking, coming-of-age books are often award winners. It's because a lot of growing up IS hard. At least characters in books provide someone to do it with.

Junie · May 28, 2015

Also, I think it's a mistake to assume that because a child gets a different perspective on a book that they don't understand the deeper themes and meanings. In some cases, it's the opposite-that BECAUSE they have less and different life experiences that they see them more deeply and are less able to reconcile choices made. It's a different view, not a lesser one. It's true that if I read a book such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" now, I see it differently than I did when I first read it-but that doesn't make my views of the book less valid. In many respects, TKAM is one book that reading it first when you're seeing it from the viewpoint of a precocious child because you ARE a precocious child really adds a lot-because that's how it's written. It's not written from the point of view of Atticus Finch, crusader for justice while also being very aware how the world works, but through the point of view of Scout. Mindset-wise, my DD can understand Scout at age 10 better than she can understand Atticus. And she can learn and grow WITH Scout.

There's a reason why tear jerking, coming-of-age books are often award winners. It's because a lot of growing up IS hard. At least characters in books provide someone to do it with.

I think that it would be great if they had a young reader's version of this book. Take out the swearing (this is a huge thing for me, although I understand that it isn't for some people), take out some of the more sordid details, and I think this would be an excellent book for a 10 year old.

lewelma · May 28, 2015

Something you might find interesting is that not all countries put novel analysis as a major focus in English class. In NZ you can tailor your English class to your preferences by chosing which units to study, and what books to choose within the unit. You must do both 'reading' and 'writing' credits. A reading credit is analysis of other's works, and a writing credit is writing that is in a publishable form - so not schooly, but more like national geographic in style. In 11th grade the possible units are:

'Writing credits'

Writing Portfolio - can include your choice of persuasive, informative, creative, poetry,

Oral presentation

Visual media (video, cartoon, ad, etc)

'Reading credits'

Response papers (can respond to fiction or nonfiction your choice)

Literary analysis (can analyze novels, plays, poetry, or nonfiction)

Visual/oral text analysis (film, famous speeches, ads, commercials)

Research paper

So if you want, you can focus on nonfiction only. Or you could focus on creative writing and film analysis. Or you could create a more typical American course of persuasive writing and literary analysis.

My point being, to be gifted in the humanities does not mean that you need to understand the adult themes in novels. English credits here in NZ are much broader than that.

Ruth in NZ

Junie · May 28, 2015

Something you might find interesting is that not all countries put novel analysis as a major focus in English class. In NZ you can tailor your English class to your preferences by chosing which units to study, and what books to choose within the unit. You must do both 'reading' and 'writing' credits. A reading credit is analysis of other's works, and a writing credit is writing that is in a publishable form - so not schooly, but more like national geographic in style. In 11th grade the possible units are:

'Writing credits'

Writing Portfolio - can include your choice of persuasive, informative, creative, poetry,

Oral presentation

Visual media (video, cartoon, ad, etc)

'Reading credits'

Response papers (can respond to fiction or nonfiction your choice)

Literary analysis (can analyze novels, plays, poetry, or nonfiction)

Visual/oral text analysis (film, famous speeches, ads, commercials)

Research paper

So if you want, you can focus on nonfiction only. Or you could focus on creative writing and film analysis. Or you could create a more typical American course of persuasive writing and literary analysis.

My point being, to be gifted in the humanities does not mean that you need to understand the adult themes in novels. English credits here in NZ are much broader than that.

Ruth in NZ

Thank you!

I think it's fantastic that students are offered a choice. My high school didn't offer any choices for English other than remedial, standard, college preparatory, or honors in each grade 9-12.

Tsuga · May 28, 2015

At the same time, though, isn't this WHY some kids need to go to college early? I mean, the only thing that pulled us off an early college path with my DD was that she got access to college and even grad level resources without going to college full-time. The fact is, her completely independent work that she can do at home is pretty juvenile and simplistic-things like creating backyard test ponds with different numbers of hours of sunlight and amounts of plant coverage, and seeing which creatures colonize them. What she can do in the lab is much more detailed, but the reason is that she has access to the same sort of resources that normally are available in grad school (and in a few undergrad programs that are strong on research. It's not that she's doing it at home-it's that she's working on potentially publishable work without being required to enter college full-time, which, frankly, probably wouldn't be made available for her were it not so obviously the case that she's NOT ready for college in many areas outside of biology!

I truly believe that dual enrollment, if you're in an area where it's available, is likely to be a better fit for many gifted kids than radical acceleration across the board. And that maybe, just maybe, if dual enrollment and partial acceleration were made more available, we might see more kids who are advanced in the humanities who turn out exceptional, mature work while still being immature in other areas.

Absolutely, for certain science subjects, yes, and I believe we have agreed on this before--that some children who are gifted in the natural sciences can really only have their gifts fully nurtured with mentors at the university level.

Tsuga · May 28, 2015

Also, I think it's a mistake to assume that because a child gets a different perspective on a book that they don't understand the deeper themes and meanings. In some cases, it's the opposite-that BECAUSE they have less and different life experiences that they see them more deeply and are less able to reconcile choices made. It's a different view, not a lesser one. It's true that if I read a book such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" now, I see it differently than I did when I first read it-but that doesn't make my views of the book less valid. In many respects, TKAM is one book that reading it first when you're seeing it from the viewpoint of a precocious child because you ARE a precocious child really adds a lot-because that's how it's written. It's not written from the point of view of Atticus Finch, crusader for justice while also being very aware how the world works, but through the point of view of Scout. Mindset-wise, my DD can understand Scout at age 10 better than she can understand Atticus. And she can learn and grow WITH Scout.

There's a reason why tear jerking, coming-of-age books are often award winners. It's because a lot of growing up IS hard. At least characters in books provide someone to do it with.

Sorry for not using multi quote. I agree with this as well. I simply think that there is a real question about much of the humanities--TKMB is a middle / high school book and it's usually not read in college. College-level books deal with very adult themes at times. In those cases the child may lack most of the referents required to discuss the book. I am sure they will get it on some level, yes, but can they really engage in that university-level conversation, which is building on a lot of other mature conversations about the book?

By "adult" and "mature" I am not referring (only) to sex, of course.

Halcyon · May 28, 2015

I don't consider my 9 yo wildly accelerated in reading, but he has read To Kill A Mockingbird, Little Women, Animal Farm and White Fang. We discuss them and he seems to have a pretty solid grasp on what is happening. That said, a second read when he older will likely happen.

Halcyon · May 28, 2015

I am a middle and high school English teacher and would tend to disagree that most 10 years olds have the ability to handle abstract ideas such as racism, classism and poverty that are clearly portrayed in To Kill A Mockingbird. I know that I re-read several books that I originally read in high school and found that I gained much more from them after going through significant life circumstances. Most 10 year olds simply haven't experienced the world enough to truly get these concepts except at a very superficial level. And, I would very much disagree with To Kill a Mockingbird as a middle school book.

I completely disagree. My 9 year read this recently, as did my 12 year old and we had long and fruitful discussions about many elements in the book, from racism to the coexistence of good and evil. I disagree vehemently that the book was over their heads. And given our concurrent discussion of present-day racism and violence against blacks from those in a position of authority (ie police), I feel it was very timely.

Halcyon · May 28, 2015

I think the issue here is maturity. A child who is really good at math does not need to be mature. However, handling pieces such as "To Kill a Mockingbird" (which ds14 is currently reading) would not be ok in the hands of my dd10.

I think whether a 10 year old (or a 9 year old) can handle a book such as TKAM would depend greatly on the maturity of the child in question.

Junie · May 28, 2015

I completely disagree. My 9 year read this recently, as did my 12 year old and we had long and fruitful discussions about many elements in the book, from racism to the coexistence of good and evil. I disagree vehemently that the book was over their heads. And given our concurrent discussion of present-day racism and violence against blacks from those in a position of authority (ie police), I feel it was very timely.

Yes, this works because it is a small group and you know your children and what they are able to handle. Teaching this book to a large classroom of other people's children is an entirely different matter.

And, yes, I agree that this is an excellent time to teach this book.

Bluegoat · May 29, 2015

I think there is a huge difference between talking about a gifted elementary aged child reading middle and high school type books, and talking about a child or even middle-schooler doing university level literature courses.

go_go_gadget · May 29, 2015

I echo the idea that it totally depends on the individual child. When my son was seven, he asked to read Douglass' Narrative of the Life of an American Slave, and when I expressed concern over the level of Serious Atrocity in the book, he said he knew it would be pretty bad, but that he thought it was important to read these things, be scared by them, and appreciate them. So I agreed, though I did disallow Harriet Jacobs' Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl due to the graphic rape. Based on the questions he asked and the thoughts he had while reading the book, I can say unequivocally that he did ''get'' it, and while he might well get even more out of a future re-read, that shouldn't invalidate the experience he's already had. He read War and Peace a year later (his choice, again). My DD8 hasn't shown any interest in books that challenge in that way yet, and that's fine.

Interestingly, my son's been in a much more demotic mood for the last year or so, and I attribute it to more of his bandwidth being used by the beginnings of adolescence.

Junie · May 29, 2015

Deconstructing Penguins - I believe that has Animal Farm on the 3rd Grade reading list and The Time Machine for 5th.

This podcast from Read Aloud Revival with the author might help you understand how kids could be ready for more advanced thoughtful work.

Thank you. I haven't read Deconstructing Penguins. It was on my amazon wish list, but I took it off because of other things that were more essential. :(

I've listened to part of the Read Aloud Revival, but not this one. Thanks for the recommendation.

wendyroo · May 29, 2015

For upper elementary, I'm not sure that the average kid would be ready for them. (Maybe I am underestimating them, but I know that my kids would not be ready for most of these at age 9 or 10.) For my kids, interest is a big factor.

Here's my take on it...

When a kid is radically advanced in math, it's not like they just wake up at 10 years old ready to skip 6 years of math and jump straight into trigonometry. They had to learn all the prerequisite skills, but their brains are wired in such a way that they can understand them quickly and deeply at very young ages.

I think we need to remember that the same holds true for kids who are radically advanced in literary analysis. A 10 year old who is fully ready to read To Kill A Mockingbird is not one who the previous month was reading James and the Giant Peach.

A child who is on a radically advanced literature path (and who would perhaps graduate very early to study literature in college) has already been grappling with the themes of racism and poverty in picture books and young adult novels for many years. Their word and theme-oriented brains have already been building up a vast library of prerequisite knowledge and understanding that they bring with them when reading To Kill a Mocking Bird. After they read that, they will have an even more intricate comprehension of those themes that they can apply to Tale of Two Cities or The Grapes of Wrath.

Of course "the average kid" that you mention above would not be ready for advanced literature in elementary. That is perfectly okay; the average kid is also not going to be ready for trigonometry until high school. That is why the average age to start college is 18 not 13. But just because most pre-teens are not ready to intellectually grapple with Of Mice and Men or Great Expectations, doesn't mean we should assume that it would be impossible for an advanced child to read those books with understanding and perceptivity well beyond their years.

Wendy

mathmarm · May 29, 2015

I'm sorry, I'm missing something: OP How is an academically gifted and accelerated child who is elementary aged but reading a 6th-8th grade book comparable to a typical child reading adult literature on a collegiate level and discussing/writing about that adult literature comparable?

In US Academia we tend to have very narrow, very constricting and very "set" definitions of our subjects but in many other English speaking countries, that is not always the case. There is more than one way to legitimately fulfill a subject requirement at the university level in the US (I can't speak with authority about other countries) and I imagine that any child who was advanced enough to get to university REALLY early is also prudent enough to read the university catalog/student manual and realize that for themselves.

Junie · May 29, 2015

I'm sorry, I'm missing something: OP How is an academically gifted and accelerated child who is elementary aged but reading a 6th-8th grade book comparable to a typical child reading adult literature on a collegiate level and discussing/writing about that adult literature comparable?

The thread kind of got side-tracked. :)

In US Academia we tend to have very narrow, very constricting and very "set" definitions of our subjects but in many other English speaking countries, that is not always the case. There is more than one way to legitimately fulfill a subject requirement at the university level in the US (I can't speak with authority about other countries) and I imagine that any child who was advanced enough to get to university REALLY early is also prudent enough to read the university catalog/student manual and realize that for themselves.

I wasn't asking about fulfilling requirements at the university level; I was asking about fulfilling requirements at the high school level. In the U.S., high school English typically includes literary analysis. I was wondering how a 10-year-old child would be able to accomplish this on a high school level.

EndOfOrdinary · May 29, 2015

I think there is a huge difference between talking about a gifted elementary aged child reading middle and high school type books, and talking about a child or even middle-schooler doing university level literature courses.

I do not know where there is discussion of a child doing university level literature courses? The OP asked about how high school literature is handled by kids who are graduating very early. The ages are rarely before twelve and generally students for whom that happens do not enter university until between thirteen and fourteen. Fourteen is high school aged. In many states 14 year olds participate in dual enrollment at universities.

Even for a student graduating at twelve, why is it that they are now ready for taking a literature course right away? Is there some reason that it is assumed that this is any different than an 18 year old student who graduates and then takes lower level (often not university level) math classes until they can handle the math, or takes the science pre-requisites, or knocks out English 101, 102, and a speech class first things because they are intimidated by literature courses? My father failed his college literature course 4 times because he just could not seem to understand Shakespeare or Homer and he was in his mid twenties. The man has been a successful architect for 45 years with three degrees.

Secondly, I think the idea that because a student can handle graduating high school with a districts requirements is then somehow be magically prepared for college is quite false. The OP asked about high school graduation. More than half the students who graduate most high schools are not prepared for all university level classes. There is a ridiculously steep learning curve for huge quantities of students regardless of age. Drop out rates are very high among the first two years. The phenomenon is so common that the term "gap year" exists.

Why does it become a situation where a student who graduates early somehow has a higher bar to meet than my father or any other random 18 year old? Why are they not held to the same standards?

Lastly, I do not think there is a single person here who believes that the life experiences of the students who enter a college literature class (regardless of their age) are all going to be anywhere near the same level. The life experiences I had entering college were vastly different being a homeless teen than that of the 40 year old housewife who sat next to me in my World Lit. class. I guarentee you that at 14 I understood far more about being used as a sexual object than my husband ever will. At least one in five girls under twelve understands more than I ever want to even think about. This is what makes the class so interesting. It is not that somehow at 18 you magically become viable and your experiences become valid.

My son has darker skin in a rural white town. He learned Spanish from members of the hispanic migrant workers and their children (and was often lumped in with the children by other white members of the community). He has stopped fishing with the neighbor he idolized because said neighbor went on a lengthy rant denegrating my son's racial herritage directly in front of him using words such as lazy, dirty, stupid, ingrate, and theiving along with quite a few racial slurs. The entire group of five males whom Ds was with not only agreed, but joined in. I guarentee you that Ds understands racism on a level my white skinned, upper class, 60 year old mother will never understand. That has nothing to do with his age. There are children in Baltimore who understand race in a way that I will never understand. These are not isolated instances. To say kids do not understand is an argument coming from the majority who thankfully has never had to explain such things to their child or teach them how to handle the emotions that come with it. To say that kids do not understand is coming from an adult who thankfulky has never had to be that child.

Junie · May 29, 2015

Lastly, I do not think there is a single person here who believes that the life experiences of the students who enter a college literature class (regardless of their age) are all going to be anywhere near the same level. The life experiences I had entering college were vastly different being a homeless teen than that of the 40 year old housewife who sat next to me in my World Lit. class. I guarentee you that at 14 I understood far more about being used as a sexual object than my husband ever will. At least one in five girls under twelve understands more than I ever want to even think about. This is what makes the class so interesting. It is not that somehow at 18 you magically become viable and your experiences become valid.

My son has darker skin in a rural white town. He learned Spanish from members of the hispanic migrant workers and their children (and was often lumped in with the children by other white members of the community). He has stopped fishing with the neighbor he idolized because said neighbor went on a lengthy rant denegrating my son's racial herritage directly in front of him using words such as lazy, dirty, stupid, ingrate, and theiving along with quite a few racial slurs. The entire group of five males whom Ds was with not only agreed, but joined in. I guarentee you that Ds understands racism on a level my white skinned, upper class, 60 year old mother will never understand. That has nothing to do with his age. There are children in Baltimore who understand race in a way that I will never understand. These are not isolated instances. To say kids do not understand is an argument coming from the majority who thankfully has never had to explain such things to their child or teach them how to handle the emotions that come with it. To say that kids do not understand is coming from an adult who thankfulky has never had to be that child.

EndOfOrdinary,

This was beautifully said and humbling. Thank you.

EndOfOrdinary · May 29, 2015

I wasn't asking about fulfilling requirements at the university level; I was asking about fulfilling requirements at the high school level. In the U.S., high school English typically includes literary analysis. I was wondering how a 10-year-old child would be able to accomplish this on a high school level.

I think this might be where the sticking point comes for me. The typical high school literary analysis is painfully, painfully low. I am not talking AP or honors. I am talking standard ninth grade, standard 11th grade, standard senior requirements are really quite dreadful. That is not to say great teachers do not really bring it and do amazing stuff. That is not to say that my homeschool graduation requirements are that low. I am saying that the requirements for most average high school graduation leave a whole lot to be desired.

You can find many reading lists online which show credit being granted for reading two novels/plays/works in a semester (and sometimes a full year). Many times it is tiny bits of works and not a single complete piece. You can equally find the writing prompts and examples of written essays which are given high marks that are so superficial. In my honors American Lit class we watched the movie of Moby Dick and I actually got in trouble for reading the book. This is not to say every class in America is that way. However, if such guidelines are the requirements for graduation, then I would submit many homeschooled youth (and probably quite a few traditionally school kids) could meet such standards at 13 or 14 years of age.

Unfortunately, as a society the standards which are required are designed with the "no one fails" mentality and have created a system where the bar is set low.

My son's ACT scores were better than 3/4's of my husbands graduating class. On a lark we threw Ds' papers in with a stack that went to the State for high school graduation exams (where Ds was timed in writing at the library in the exact same manner by another teacher). Ds passed with higher marks than many of the student body. It knocked me over emotionally. There is just no way I felt it could be accurate. My ten year old is NO WHERE near ready to academically graduate as far as I am concerned, but as far as the state is he would be in the top fifth of the class at an accredited high school. I do not think that makes my son fantastic, though I recognise he is ahead by a few years. I think that makes the standards very, very low.

wendyroo · May 29, 2015

I do not know where there is discussion of a child doing university level literature courses? The OP asked about how high school literature is handled by kids who are graduating very early. The ages are rarely before twelve and generally students for whom that happens do not enter university until between thirteen and fourteen. Fourteen is high school aged. In many states 14 year olds participate in dual enrollment at universities.

Even for a student graduating at twelve, why is it that they are now ready for taking a literature course right away? Is there some reason that it is assumed that this is any different than an 18 year old student who graduates and then takes lower level (often not university level) math classes until they can handle the math, or takes the science pre-requisites, or knocks out English 101, 102, and a speech class first things because they are intimidated by literature courses? My father failed his college literature course 4 times because he just could not seem to understand Shakespeare or Homer and he was in his mid twenties. The man has been a successful architect for 45 years with three degrees.

Secondly, I think the idea that because a student can handle graduating high school with a districts requirements is then somehow be magically prepared for college is quite false. The OP asked about high school graduation. More than half the students who graduate most high schools are not prepared for all university level classes. There is a ridiculously steep learning curve for huge quantities of students regardless of age. Drop out rates are very high among the first two years. The phenomenon is so common that the term "gap year" exists.

Why does it become a situation where a student who graduates early somehow has a higher bar to meet than my father or any other random 18 year old? Why are they not held to the same standards?

Lastly, I do not think there is a single person here who believes that the life experiences of the students who enter a college literature class (regardless of their age) are all going to be anywhere near the same level. The life experiences I had entering college were vastly different being a homeless teen than that of the 40 year old housewife who sat next to me in my World Lit. class. I guarentee you that at 14 I understood far more about being used as a sexual object than my husband ever will. At least one in five girls under twelve understands more than I ever want to even think about. This is what makes the class so interesting. It is not that somehow at 18 you magically become viable and your experiences become valid.

My son has darker skin in a rural white town. He learned Spanish from members of the hispanic migrant workers and their children (and was often lumped in with the children by other white members of the community). He has stopped fishing with the neighbor he idolized because said neighbor went on a lengthy rant denegrating my son's racial herritage directly in front of him using words such as lazy, dirty, stupid, ingrate, and theiving along with quite a few racial slurs. The entire group of five males whom Ds was with not only agreed, but joined in. I guarentee you that Ds understands racism on a level my white skinned, upper class, 60 year old mother will never understand. That has nothing to do with his age. There are children in Baltimore who understand race in a way that I will never understand. These are not isolated instances. To say kids do not understand is an argument coming from the majority who thankfully has never had to explain such things to their child or teach them how to handle the emotions that come with it. To say that kids do not understand is coming from an adult who thankfulky has never had to be that child.

I agree. I also don't think kids (or adults) necessarily have to personally live through situations in order to gain understanding and perspective.

At 10 or 12 I knew very little about the realities of war. I had not magically gained that knowledge when I graduated at 18, and now at 34 my understanding is still very superficial. If one of my boys becomes interested in reading about and studying the history and literature of modern wars, he could quickly surpass my knowledge base and as a pre-teen be better prepared to read, understand and discuss All Quiet on the Western Front that I am.

Wendy

The Well-Trained Mind Extended Guide

Question about Graduating REALLY Early

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