S/O ---Duggars-----at what age is it no longer exploration?

[lea_lpz]

To be clear, I believe at age 14 if Josh Duggar touched his younger sisters breasts and genitals, and they were 10 and younger, it's clearly him molesting a child. I don't know the legal definition in my state, but to me that seems pretty cut and dry.

 

My question is, where would you say the tipping point is? A certain age, the age difference between the minors, what was done, if the 2 minors were siblings or related?

 

I have heard some posters say that the crimes Josh committed were not molestation but childish exploration that was bad judgement and the linked articles saying this as well as what looks like the Duggars themselves which I firmly disagree with.

 

So I am asking if anyone can share the legal definition of when a minor is responsible for sexual assault against a younger minor or your opinion of where that line is drawn.

[Katy]

Legal definitions vary by state.  Legally the events that took place when he was 14 were not prosecutable, but the events when he was 15 or older were.  More went on than was released to the public, the Washington Post found an action against him by the state a couple years later than that, but it is not public record because he was a minor at the time.

 

 

[SKL]

I think that under a certain age, you have to look at the individual child and see what s/he was capable of understanding.  And you have to look at all the circumstances.  If a 7yo did something "consensual" with a 6yo it would be different from doing it with a 3yo, because the 7yo would be doing two things really - inappropriate touching and misuse of power over the younger.

 

I think age 11 or 12 would be the youngest age I would consider the suggestion of childish innocence.  And that would have to be a pretty naive child.

 

FTR I didn't notice anyone saying that what Josh did was simple exploration.

[Crimson Wife]

An 8 or 9 y.o. neurotypical child should be able to understand that it's not okay to touch private parts of a sibling. If the child doing the inappropriate touching is pre-pubescent himself/herself, then it's a less problematic situation than an adolescent doing it.

[kubiac]

Deleted.

[Joanne]

The tipping point is consent. Going into the bedrooms of siblings to molest them is not consent.

[Bluegoat]

I find it hard to create simple categories for this.  Pretty much anything per-pubescent I would consider to be different than an adult sexual expression.  Whether there was a power differential I think is in a way not to the point - its also pretty normal for kids to have those in their relationships and take advantage of them from time to time.

 

As far as adolescents - I suspect that apart from something like mutual adolescent fooling around, it is actually not all that uncommon for teens to be sexually curious and possibly act on that when they think they could get away with it and it would be, in their minds, relatively harmless.  Even a child that knows how things work, theoretically, might have never had a good look at the parts in question, for example, and would be curious to have a gander if the opportunity arose.  It isn't even necessarily about sexual attraction - I've known of teens to be intensely curious even about things like animals mating, just because it is sex. 

 

Of course we'd expect most kids that age to know there are boundaries that aren't meant to be crossed, but I don't know that they will always see that quite the same way adults would.  i would say many teens would, if they found a hole to look in an opposite sex changing room, take the opportunity.  I would say that crosses a boundary, but I think many 14 year olds would think - what's the harm? - and curiosity might get the better of them.   They aren't always good at putting themselves in other's shoes, or self-control, and they can be a little literalistic as well and think no harm equals no wrong done.

 

I think touching someone sleeping sexually crosses a line, but what line would depend.  Did he somehow think the people would never know?  Was he mostly looking to satisfy some sort of curiosity or was he aroused?  And so on.  I wouldn't tend to make the same assumptions I would about an adult in a similar situation.  I would also want to be careful about how I reacted, because I think it is really easy for a kid who has done something like that to be treated like an adult sexual offender and I think that is almost a guarantee that they will keep their real feelings and motivations to themselves. 

 

[elegantlion]

 

nm unwilling to derail a valid question. 

[elegantlion]

As to the original question.

 

 

The tipping point is consent. Going into the bedrooms of siblings to molest them is not consent.

 

:iagree:

[LucyStoner]

It's easier for me to define what I might see as exploration.  Exploration would be a mutual, consenting act between 2 or more people of a similar age.  

 

It can not be exploration when it is a boy well into puberty with a toddler.  Anyone who sexualizes a small child needs serious help.  

[Guest]

You "explore" your own body. Anything else requires reasonable age and definite consent of both parties. Because when someone else is involved it isn't exploring, imo.

[kroe1]

How does a young child give consent?

[Mom-ninja.]

Just what did he do? From the article I read it just said encounters with girls. 

[lea_lpz]

I did this post on my phone with kids in background so perhaps not the best posed question but what I am asking is not whether what Josh Duggar did was a sex crime; IMO it was and there are police reports and a charge so the law agrees.

 

It's more about where is the line drawn? At what point would you file a report and take further action as a parent.

 

To me honestly a child over 7 wanting to look at, show, or touch or have another child touch another child's private parts who is more than 2 years younger even if they went along with it, would be corrosion and concern me. Not to say that child would be a pedophile as an adult but it would prompt me to fill a report to the police, CPS, and believe both children should see a therapist to see what went on, especially if a situation of incest since it might not be the first incident or the victim could be afraid to say more.

 

If the other child said no and their was no age difference I 'd probably feel a similar reaction was warranted.

 

I tend to agree that exploration should be self exploration and only young children (maybe 6 on down) can justifiably "just be curious" and want to see or poke at say brothers pen*s. If they did so the behavior should be corrected and the children firmly told we do not touch each other's private area, if someone does this to you then you tell mommy and daddy and say no, etc., we don't show our privates to others, etc.

 

I am just curios what the legal stance is state to state and what people generally believe.

 

Because Josh Duggar seemed to not have a court ordered rehabilitation program from what I read from the other thread or serve time in juvenile hall it made me wonder about the actual laws and public opinion about how we deal with incest between minors.

[lea_lpz]

An 8 or 9 y.o. neurotypical child should be able to understand that it's not okay to touch private parts of a sibling. If the child doing the inappropriate touching is pre-pubescent himself/herself, then it's a less problematic situation than an adolescent doing it.

[The Girls' Mom]

Exploration is two people mutually desiring contact.  Anything else is wrong, no matter the age.  Victims of abuse can be manipulated into giving "consent".  It is still abuse.  A child over the age of 3 or 4 can learn when it is wrong to touch another person in a sexual way, just like they can learn not to run out into the road or to steal.  (I am NOT equating those things to abuse, btw).  

[lea_lpz]

An 8 or 9 y.o. neurotypical child should be able to understand that it's not okay to touch private parts of a sibling. If the child doing the inappropriate touching is pre-pubescent himself/herself, then it's a less problematic situation than an adolescent doing it.

I tend to agree with this.

[lea_lpz]

The tipping point is consent. Going into the bedrooms of siblings to molest them is not consent.

Very much agreed.

[lea_lpz]

Exploration is two people mutually desiring contact. Anything else is wrong, no matter the age. Victims of abuse can be manipulated into giving "consent". It is still abuse. A child over the age of 3 or 4 can learn when it is wrong to touch another person in a sexual way, just like they can learn not to run out into the road or to steal. (I am NOT equating those things to abuse, btw).

Ok and I feel like I have similar sentiments. I have boys and girls. I remember at some point my kids being curios about having different body parts at 2 & 4. I remember explaining the differences between boys and girls and what was ok as far as touching- ie, yourself in private, a dr if mom is there and they need to examine your private for medical reasons, mom if she has to help clean accident or dirty diaper, etc. I can't see my just turned 8 year old not knowing that it would be wrong to show her privates or ask someone to see theres. She has very good logic and reasoning skills. It would be a big stretch for me to understand how a 12 year old doesn't know better. My dd is a girl and pretty emotionally mature, and I have been around some boys who are a lot less mature, but even a 9 year old I would have trouble believing they didn't know better.

[lea_lpz]

And I am aware that fairly young adolescents enter consensual sexual relationships even if their parents wholeheartedly are against it and taught them to wait (marriage, older, etc), even in middle school. It's probably not that uncommon. And not incest. Or with a 3+ age gap. I am not there yet as far as my kids ages but although I might not approve and might give my kids consequences I would consider a crime having taken place.

.

[SKL]

The thing is that if you report to CPS or the cops, you lose some or all control over what is done to help the child.  I would not be willing to do that for a child as young as 7, unless the behavior was pretty extreme and I couldn't control it even with private professional intervention.  Between 7 and 14 it would depend on all the circumstances.  Honestly, turning this over to the authorities would be a last resort, but I would do it if needed to protect anyone.

 

I don't think I'll have to deal with this particular question, since my kids are only 3mos apart.  But it is scary.  Everyone thinks their kids won't do it, and yet a significant number of kids do.  I'm pretty sure the vast majority of kids over 6 who do this are aware it's wrong, although they would not view it the way an adult or older teen does.

[greenvneck]

I've been reading these threads intently; I grew up in a fundamentalist family so similar to the Duggars. To inject a bit of humor, this thread reminded me of a situation from years ago: My 10yo is a boy and his BFF is a girl. When they were around 4 years old her mom and I couldn't find them in the house. We yelled for them and her daughter yelled back, "We're upstairs playing doctor!" Her mom and I ran up the stairs, looking at each other with panicked faces. Sure enough, we found them in the girl's walk-in closet (the "ambulance"), playing doctor. There was a pretend blood pressure cuff around my supine son's arm, his friend was checking his heart with a pretend stethoscope, and a box's worth of band-aids were strategically-placed on his legs and face. They were a bit miffed at our appearance; apparently they were almost to the hospital and there was going to be some gurney action with the friend (EMS doctor) pulling my son (patient) across the room by his feet to the "operating room."