s/o narcissism or just self- centered?

[solascriptura]

Several times here on this board Narcissistic personality disorder has been discussed.  Now, I find this fascinating because as I looked up the description, it just seems like an extreme form of a very self-centered person.  I'm sure that there is a large range of this disorder, but when does it really become a mental disorder?  My best friend has struggled for her entire marriage with her husband and this disorder would explain a lot.  I hate to label him (clearly, I am not a professional), but all of the marks of narcissistic is there.  He doesn't really seem like a horrible person, just extremely self absorbed.  Thoughts?  I would love to help my dear, dear friend, but I just cannot get my mind around how a person can be so self absorbed like her husband.  Its to the point that if she could take it no longer and left him, he would be stunned.  He would have no clue that she has been so unhappy for all of these years because, of course, how could anyone be unhappy when they are with him.  

[Tap]

Very Non-clinical difference that I have noticed...

 

Self-centered people can see that their actions hurt other people, they just don't really care.  They can be moved emotionally enough to care. They can change their behaviors when they want to or their heart strings are pulled hard enough. 

 

Narcissistic people, have no idea that their actions hurt other people.  They are so self focused, that they can not understand that there could possibly be a different point of view than their own.  This is part of why it can be confusing in the beginning of a friendship, they can actually be very generous....as long as it is their idea and 100% on their terms.  

[solascriptura]

Very Non-clinical difference that I have noticed...

 

Self-centered people can see that their actions hurt other people, they just don't really care. They can be moved emotionally enough to care. They can change their behaviors when they want to or their heart strings are pulled hard enough.

 

Narcissistic people, have no idea that their actions hurt other people. They are so self focused, that they can not understand that there could possibly be a different point of view than their own. This is part of why it can be confusing in the beginning of a friendship, they can actually be very generous....as long as it is their idea and 100% on their terms.

So Narcissism is just an extreme form of self absorption?

[Ausmumof3]

Descriptions I've read tend to indicate that they also have a very inflated idea of themselves.

[Rosie_0801]

Both a narcissist and an ordinary self absorbed person only care about themselves.

 

The difference is, for an ordinary self absorbed person, there is only one self. Them. In their body.

 

For a narcissist, anyone they "really care" about (spouse and kids) is an outsourced part of them. Them, the narcissist, but in a different body. Stop behaving the way they think their body should behave, and watch the immune system attack.

[Rosie_0801]

Descriptions I've read tend to indicate that they also have a very inflated idea of themselves.

 

Yeah, but that's a smoke screen. Under that, there's more emptiness than person. This is so frightening they put all their efforts into the smoke screen, to try and make it look and feel like a castle. 

[HRAAB]

Very Non-clinical difference that I have noticed...

 

Self-centered people can see that their actions hurt other people, they just don't really care.  They can be moved emotionally enough to care. They can change their behaviors when they want to or their heart strings are pulled hard enough. 

 

Narcissistic people, have no idea that their actions hurt other people.  They are so self focused, that they can not understand that there could possibly be a different point of view than their own.  This is part of why it can be confusing in the beginning of a friendship, they can actually be very generous....as long as it is their idea and 100% on their terms.  

 

I know someone that fits this description.  I've never been able to describe what was wrong, but it was so evident something was seriously wrong.  Even when serving others or involved in social justice activities, there was always something that was off and just wasn't right.  Watching from a distance is still painful.  Sad thing is that she will never get a diagnosis nor help because there is nothing wrong with her.  However, I see her children needing counseling if they're able to live independent lives.

 

One other thought.  The woman I know came from an abusive home.  I don't know how bad it was, but I do know that her childhood was very dysfunctional and there was abuse, from what she says.  I wonder if that could enter into it.  I don't know anything about NPD and until meeting her, I'd never known anyone like that.  It's beyond just being self-absorbed and self-centered.

[Rosie_0801]

I've been reading about NPD, and they seem to think it's more nurture than nature.

[solascriptura]

I know someone that fits this description. I've never been able to describe what was wrong, but it was so evident something was seriously wrong. Even when serving others or involved in social justice activities, there was always something that was off and just wasn't right. Watching from a distance is still painful. Sad thing is that she will never get a diagnosis nor help because there is nothing wrong with her. However, I see her children needing counseling if they're able to live independent lives.

 

One other thought. The woman I know came from an abusive home. I don't know how bad it was, but I do know that her childhood was very dysfunctional and there was abuse, from what she says. I wonder if that could enter into it. I don't know anything about NPD and until meeting her, I'd never known anyone like that. It's beyond just being self-absorbed and self-centered.

I believe that abuse was present in this case too. Can you explain to me what you mean when you said it was painful to see?

[HRAAB]

I believe that abuse was present in this case too. Can you explain to me what you mean when you said it was painful to see?

 

I know this woman through our children who are very good friends so I see it from that angle.  My heart breaks for them.  There's this outward show - if you never see it from the inside - of this loving, functional family.  Only, it's not.  It's more like each of them has a role to play in this huge production which is being directed by the mother, and no-one is allowed to mess up their lines.  Everything she does serves this end - this picture she presents to the outside.  I never sense real love but total control disguised as love.  As a couple of the kids has gotten older and wanted to start having a somewhat independent life, the control through guilt has increased especially since she can't physically control them as much.  And it's a lot of guilt.  One time I was looking at her chore chart, and there between a couple household chores was 'show love to your parents'.  And of course the other side of the board was for demerits when the kids failed to complete the chores. 

[Mommy22alyns]

I know someone that fits this description.  I've never been able to describe what was wrong, but it was so evident something was seriously wrong.  Even when serving others or involved in social justice activities, there was always something that was off and just wasn't right.  Watching from a distance is still painful.  Sad thing is that she will never get a diagnosis nor help because there is nothing wrong with her.  However, I see her children needing counseling if they're able to live independent lives.

 

One other thought.  The woman I know came from an abusive home.  I don't know how bad it was, but I do know that her childhood was very dysfunctional and there was abuse, from what she says.  I wonder if that could enter into it.  I don't know anything about NPD and until meeting her, I'd never known anyone like that.  It's beyond just being self-absorbed and self-centered.

 

 

This, yes.  I don't really know how to discuss the differences though.  NPD are notoriously resistant to any sort of help or rehab... of course, there's nothing wrong with THEM, it's everyone ELSE.

[8circles]

I've been reading about NPD, and they seem to think it's more nurture than nature.

Having an NPD sister, I would agree.

[gardenmom5]

This, yes.  I don't really know how to discuss the differences though.  NPD are notoriously resistant to any sort of help or rehab... of course, there's nothing wrong with THEM, it's everyone ELSE.

 

 

of course it's everyone else.  the NPD person has driven them nuts so they need therapy.

 

I'm serious - an NPD parent/grandparent can make you think YOU are the one who is nuts.

[Mommy22alyns]

of course it's everyone else.  the NPD person has driven them nuts so they need therapy.

 

I'm serious - an NPD parent/grandparent can make you think YOU are the one who is nuts.

 

 

Oh yes, gaslighting.  I know all about it.

[Epicurean]

A person with NPD has no empathy. As Rosie said, they see other people as extensions of themselves. That means that they believe with 100% certainty that they know what everyone is feeling, all the time. They pretend that this is empathy and will talk about how "in tune" they are with so-and-so and so-and-so. But they're just projecting. They have no idea how to imagine themselves in another person's position and see things from another person's perspective. They either ascribe a mirror reflection of their opinion onto the person, or they completely demonize the person.

 

A person with NPD is so irrational and lacks so much empathy that they often do things that a sane person would recognize as harmful to themselves. A person who is just selfish can see the world clearly enough to know hwen saying x or doing y makes them look bad, but a person with NPD can't conceive of anything making them look bad because they think they are so wonderful. Here is a small example. My MIL has NPD. About six months after I started dating her son, she decided to try to find my parents' phone number (she did this secretly, not asking me for it). She proceeded to call my parents, whom she had never met, and spend two hours talking about what an awful person I was and what a saint she was for putting up with me. My parents did not join in bashing me--they stayed mostly silent with a few "uh huhs" here and there as she dug her grave deeper and deeper. A sane person would have realized that even if they thought their son's girlfriend was awful, her parents are probably not the people you should assume it's okay to badmouth said person to. Even if you did think it was a good idea at first, the icy silence on the other end of the line would quickly clue you in. She didn't pick up on that at all.

 

Another hallmark that separates NPD from garden variety selfishness is the way they treat their children. People with NPD are notorious for making one son or daughter the golden child, while completely trashing the other. And even with the golden child, they make it abundantly clear that love is something that child needs to earn from the parent. If the child hadn't been born, she tells them, she could have pursued her dreams instead of sacrificing herself on the altar of motherhood. NPD is also often accompanied by other mental problems, like compulsive lying, shopping addiction, hypochondria, substance abuse, etc.

[Mommy22alyns]

A person with NPD has no empathy. As Rosie said, they see other people as extensions of themselves. That means that they believe with 100% certainty that they know what everyone is feeling, all the time. They pretend that this is empathy and will talk about how "in tune" they are with so-and-so and so-and-so. But they're just projecting. They have no idea how to imagine themselves in another person's position and see things from another person's perspective. They either ascribe a mirror reflection of their opinion onto the person, or they completely demonize the person.

 

A person with NPD is so irrational and lacks so much empathy that they often do things that a sane person would recognize as harmful to themselves. A person who is just selfish can see the world clearly enough to know hwen saying x or doing y makes them look bad, but a person with NPD can't conceive of anything making them look bad because they think they are so wonderful. Here is a small example. My MIL has NPD. About six months after I started dating her son, she decided to try to find my parents' phone number (she did this secretly, not asking me for it). She proceeded to call my parents, whom she had never met, and spend two hours talking about what an awful person I was and what a saint she was for putting up with me. My parents did not join in bashing me--they stayed mostly silent with a few "uh huhs" here and there as she dug her grave deeper and deeper. A sane person would have realized that even if they thought their son's girlfriend was awful, her parents are probably not the people you should assume it's okay to badmouth said person to. Even if you did think it was a good idea at first, the icy silence on the other end of the line would quickly clue you in. She didn't pick up on that at all.

 

Another hallmark that separates NPD from garden variety selfishness is the way they treat their children. People with NPD are notorious for making one son or daughter the golden child, while completely trashing the other. And even with the golden child, they make it abundantly clear that love is something that child needs to earn from the parent. If the child hadn't been born, she tells them, she could have pursued her dreams instead of sacrificing herself on the altar of motherhood. NPD is also often accompanied by other mental problems, like compulsive lying, shopping addiction, hypochondria, substance abuse, etc.

 

 

^^^You nailed it.  I was the scapegoat, sister was the golden child.

[Joanne]

NPD has an element of manipulation, power, and control that run of the mill self centeredness does not.

[Epicurean]

Also, I have never met anyone who came even close to being as self-centered as the person I know with NPD. Maybe my MIL is just a particularly extreme case, but here is a real conversation that happened a few years ago:

 

Her: I've decided to stop going to confession. I love Father Joe, he's a sweetheart, but I just don't see the point.

Me: Oh, is something wrong with the way he does confession?

Her: No, he does it just fine. It's just that I never have anything to say to him, you know? I mean, the whole point of going to confession is confessing your sins and doing penance. And I try and I try to think of a way I've sinned, and I just can't think of anything.

DH: You can't think of any sins you've committed recently?

Her: Well...yes and no. I can't think of a time I've ever sinned, to be honest.

DH: Mom. Everyone sins. All the time. That's the whole point of Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross.

Her: Not everyone. And Jesus came to show us how we should live, it wasn't about making people feel ashamed.

DH: You can't think of a single time you've sinned? You never ever lied or coveted something or were jealous or said something mean about someone?

Her: *tilting head as if seriously considering this* No, I don't think so. Why, have you?

DH: Of course.

Her: Well, some people are closer to God than others, I guess...

[Free]

Self-centered people can see that their actions hurt other people, they just don't really care.  They can be moved emotionally enough to care. They can change their behaviors when they want to or their heart strings are pulled hard enough. 

 

Narcissistic people, have no idea that their actions hurt other people.  They are so self focused, that they can not understand that there could possibly be a different point of view than their own.  This is part of why it can be confusing in the beginning of a friendship, they can actually be very generous....as long as it is their idea and 100% on their terms.  

 

I am not sure if this is correct. People can often be self-centered not because they don't care, but because they are thoughtless and regularly fail to consider the impacts of their actions on others. You can however reason with them and show them how they are hurting others and they might be willing to reconsider their actions if they agree. 

 

I also disagree that narcissistic people have no idea that their actions hurt other people. In fact most narcissistic people are acutely intelligent and are master manipulators. They know exactly how others will react to their actions. Narcissistic people are truly the ones who cannot care for anyone more than they care for themselves. Which means in an argument there is absolutely no reasoning, let alone winning with a narcissist. They will pretend to not understand you, refuse to concede you have a point, twist your words and just about do anything to get their way. At the end they will convince you they are the injured party and you are the self-centered one.

 

But I do agree with the last part. They can be very generous and giving also because that adds to their inflated sense of self.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Both a narcissist and an ordinary self absorbed person only care about themselves.

 

The difference is, for an ordinary self absorbed person, there is only one self. Them. In their body.

 

For a narcissist, anyone they "really care" about (spouse and kids) is an outsourced part of them. Them, the narcissist, but in a different body. Stop behaving the way they think their body should behave, and watch the immune system attack.

My MIL is like like that.  I never thought of her as narcissistic but it totally makes since, she cut off the "offending" part (DH, kids) ten years ago and we've been happy and peaceful ever since.

[Tsuga]

Both a narcissist and an ordinary self absorbed person only care about themselves.

 

The difference is, for an ordinary self absorbed person, there is only one self. Them. In their body.

 

For a narcissist, anyone they "really care" about (spouse and kids) is an outsourced part of them. Them, the narcissist, but in a different body. Stop behaving the way they think their body should behave, and watch the immune system attack.

Yes.

 

Narcissism even prevents people from acting in their own self interest, because they cannot use empathy or knowledge of others to help them in business affairs. They can con but they often cannot see how another person, a rational actor, will act if that act is not in their (the barcissist's) self-interest.

 

My ex was constantly shocked that eventually people would figure him out and stop flattering him. He could not wrap his head around the fact that np, we did not want to be his servants although he wanted servants.

 

Whereas a selfish person will be frustrated, but can understand other people's selfishness.

[Rosie_0801]

Narcissism even prevents people from acting in their own self interest.

 

Oh my goodness yes. I've been dragged into one of these train wrecks. It boggles my mind *how far against* one's own self interest a person can act. I understand how it works now, but it still boggles my brain.

[Tsuga]

I am sorry. My phone, which autocorrects real words to proper names, apparently thinks that barcissist is a word.

[Guest sabangzhi]

I have wondered before if a friend fit the description but they are not totally selfish. 

[Ausmumof3]

I am sorry. My phone, which autocorrects real words to proper names, apparently thinks that barcissist is a word.

A narcissistic dog? Or someone who drinks all the beer?

[Rosie_0801]

Or someone who drinks all the beer?

 

Someone who brings a generous quantity of beer to parties to share, while knowing they're the only one who likes that brand?

[Tsuga]

A narcissistic dog? Or someone who drinks all the beer?

Hah!

 

It is a windows phone and Cortana doesn't have all the clever witticisms programmed in like Siri, so we'll never know.

[8circles]

Yes, a narcissist absolutely knows that they hurt other people, its often on purpose. They just don't care.

 

I am not sure if this is correct. People can often be self-centered not because they don't care, but because they are thoughtless and regularly fail to consider the impacts of their actions on others. You can however reason with them and show them how they are hurting others and they might be willing to reconsider their actions if they agree.

 

I also disagree that narcissistic people have no idea that their actions hurt other people. In fact most narcissistic people are acutely intelligent and are master manipulators. They know exactly how others will react to their actions. Narcissistic people are truly the ones who cannot care for anyone more than they care for themselves. Which means in an argument there is absolutely no reasoning, let alone winning with a narcissist. They will pretend to not understand you, refuse to concede you have a point, twist your words and just about do anything to get their way. At the end they will convince you they are the injured party and you are the self-centered one.

 

But I do agree with the last part. They can be very generous and giving also because that adds to their inflated sense of self.

[solascriptura]

Okay. I'm relieved because I now am sure that my friend's husband is just a self absorbed nut instead of someone with a disorder. ☺ It doesn't help her much, but at least he isn't beyond help.

 

Can narcissism be healed with therapy or meds?

[gardenmom5]

A person with NPD has no empathy. As Rosie said, they see other people as extensions of themselves. That means that they believe with 100% certainty that they know what everyone is feeling, all the time. They pretend that this is empathy and will talk about how "in tune" they are with so-and-so and so-and-so. But they're just projecting. They have no idea how to imagine themselves in another person's position and see things from another person's perspective. They either ascribe a mirror reflection of their opinion onto the person, or they completely demonize the person.

 

 

 

Another hallmark that separates NPD from garden variety selfishness is the way they treat their children. People with NPD are notorious for making one son or daughter the golden child, while completely trashing the other. And even with the golden child, they make it abundantly clear that love is something that child needs to earn from the parent. NPD is also often accompanied by other mental problems, like compulsive lying, shopping addiction, hypochondria, substance abuse, etc.

there are many 'roles' for the children/grandchildren of the NPD/BPD person.  golden child, victim to be rescued, (think the marquis de sade), scapegoat, outcast, and on and on.

I kept telling my sister - she doesn't give approbation, stop destroying yourself trying to get it.  "but she gave it *ONCE* and it felt so good" . . . (once?  in HOW MANY YEARS???????)

interestingly - it's the scapegoat/outcast who is most likely to escape. . . . .

 

and *everything* is about them.

 

 

 

I also disagree that narcissistic people have no idea that their actions hurt other people. In fact most narcissistic people are acutely intelligent and are master manipulators. They know exactly how others will react to their actions. Narcissistic people are truly the ones who cannot care for anyone more than they care for themselves. Which means in an argument there is absolutely no reasoning, let alone winning with a narcissist. They will pretend to not understand you, refuse to concede you have a point, twist your words and just about do anything to get their way. At the end they will convince you they are the injured party and you are the self-centered one.

 

:iagree:    long before I ever heard of NPD - I recognized my grandmother's guilt trips that she'd lay on us.  extremely manipulative.  and she darn well knew she was hurting people by what she said!  she took PLEASURE in hurting people.  she'd smile and laugh about it too right after figuratively stabbing you.  I had to get rid of my grandparents 50th anniversary pix because it was "that" smile.  (it's the long term damage they don't recognize, but also will never admit.)

they NEVER apologize.  to do so, would admit they were wrong.

figuratively speaking, she wanted to be worshiped with us groveling at her feet while singing her praises.  or laying on the alter and giving her the knife with which to sacrifice us to her ego. 

and they very much seeing their "loved ones" as extensions of themselves to act only as the NPD person directs, with no free will of their own.  (and if you act counter to the NPD person - watch out)

 

Yes.

 

Narcissism even prevents people from acting in their own self interest, because they cannot use empathy or knowledge of others to help them in business affairs. They can con but they often cannot see how another person, a rational actor, will act if that act is not in their (the barcissist's) self-interest.

 

My ex was constantly shocked that eventually people would figure him out and stop flattering him. He could not wrap his head around the fact that np, we did not want to be his servants although he wanted servants.

 

Whereas a selfish person will be frustrated, but can understand other people's selfishness.

 

narcisstic people also cannot comprehend that not everyone is just like they are . . . . .

 

 

eta: there are no recognized meds that help.  dialectical behavior therapy can help with borderline personality disorder, not sure if it would help with NPD.  but FIRST the person (no matter the form of personality disorder) has to recognize they have a problem - and NPDers are "perfect" and the likelihood of them recognizing they are abusive (it's a form of psychological abuse) is very UNlikely.  let alone seeking help to change . . . . .

 

 

eeta: NPD is often not recognized by those on the outside.  it can be extremely subtle and those who grow up with it can often think they are the one who is crazy.  outsiders will often dismiss expressed concerns because they don't see it.

selfishness is far more easily seen, AND recognized by outsiders.

[Rosie_0801]

Okay. I'm relieved because I now am sure that my friend's husband is just a self absorbed nut instead of someone with a disorder. ☺ It doesn't help her much, but at least he isn't beyond help.

 

Can narcissism be healed with therapy or meds?

 

I don't know how you can be sure, but as to your last question, I doubt any of us will ever find out. I don't recommend you try either.

[gardenmom5]

a couple of the reasons my grandmother would take pleasure in hurting people was they weren't being adequately subservient, or were embarrassing her  (re: what will other people think of "NPD person*?)

 

 

NPD people are very concerned with what other people think of them - and they will perform and they will change their behavior depending upon the audience. they love to be the center of attention with people fawning over them.

 

selfish people are oblivious and don't change from location to location.

 

 

[Sdel]

Can narcissism be healed with therapy or meds?

 

No.  My stepson's NPD has been pretty evident since a least 9, and he was in fully fledged active manipulation mode since at least 13.

 

Stefanie

[Sdel]

 

and they very much seeing their "loved ones" as extensions of themselves to act only as the NPD person directs, with no free will of their own.  (and if you act counter to the NPD person - watch out)

 

 

 

When we resisted the control of my NPD stepkid it resulted in physical domestic violence (not even the toddler sibling was spared), fake abuse reports to CPS, and using the suckers who were able to be controlled to run interference. 

 

Right before he ultimately lost, we were pretending to cave and he was crowing to his brother's that "he'd won" and "mom has to do everything I say".......

 

He's currently cut off contact to us as "punishment" because he thinks, as the golden child, we can't live without him.  He's doing us the best favor ever....

 

Stefanie

[Anne in CA]

As far as doing things that get them in trouble and not realizing it, I suspect that Borderline Personality Disorder people eventually get themselves in so much trouble they go to jail, or alienate their families and end up alone. Dh's ex is probably Borderline Personality Disorder. She is completely alone these day except for three of her five children that she has emotionally crippled so much that they are stuck with her. The three with her were encouraged to have premarital sex, cover themselves with home made tattoos, get involved with petty crime, so that they were unemployable so they depend on her for money.

 

 A Narcissist continues to pull the strings for devoted followers until they are in a nursing home, and even then, they are running the show, and very few people know who they really are. The scapegoat who got away and a few very intelligent neighbors/ coworkers may be aware of who they are, but that is all.

 

That is my observation and I could be wrong.

[G5052]

A Narcissist continues to pull the strings for devoted followers until they are in a nursing home, and even then, they are running the show, and very few people know who they really are. The scapegoat who got away and a few very intelligent neighbors/ coworkers may be aware of who they are, but that is all.

 

My mother had narcissistic personality disorder as diagnosed by multiple professionals.  Basically she was the center of the universe, and anyone who didn't orbit around her properly got blasted away.  She was also a violent individual when she didn't get her way and abused prescription drugs.  

 

I could tell story after story about how she tried to control her family and so-called friends.  Thankfully I was the child who realized the truth and distanced myself both geographically and emotionally, and she mostly left me alone after that.

 

Just one example though.  When my dad died, she told me that she'd kill me if I showed up. I ignored her and stayed with a relative far enough away that she couldn't get there. She told people that I probably wouldn't come to the funeral because I was in and out of mental hospitals. I couldn't figure out why people were treating me so strangely, and then someone told me.  Talk about feeling awkward!

 

This is a decent short article: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/08/04/how-to-spot-a-narcissist/.

[foxbridgeacademy]

When MIL realized that DH wasn't going to do what she wanted (i.e. dump me) she cut off all contact with him and our kids.  She then started telling everyone that DH was a drug addict and that I had got him "hooked" :huh: .  She told this to everyone, including sending letters to my family and people I knew.  DH said she wasn't always that way but my mom, who's known the woman for almost 30 years, said she's has always been like that, but since DH "toed the line" previously he'd never seen that side of her.  

[gardenmom5]

 

 

 A Narcissist continues to pull the strings for devoted followers until they are in a nursing home, and even then, they are running the show, and very few people know who they really are. The scapegoat who got away and a few very intelligent neighbors/ coworkers may be aware of who they are, but that is all.

 

 

yes - NPD will continue to pull strings as long as they are mentally able to.  my grandmother lost that ability before she died. (cumulative TIAs)  mentally, she became too weak, and then was just "out of it".

I felt it was an opportunity for my sister (favorite & victim) to let go before she actually died - she didn't.  she couldn't. she had been so trained to be dependent upon her.

during her "mentally weak" phase, my mother often had car accidents either coming or going to see her.  she was so stressed at the prospect.

 

and lest anyone think the stories are "out there" - it's common.  a *week* after I got married (we'd just gotten back from our honeymoon), gm tried to convince me dh was having an affair - because that's what *all* men do who travel out of town on business.  she really hated that I married him. 

 

 

eta: favorite is not necessarily 'the golden child'.  my brother was golden in that he could do no wrong - but she still preferred my sister.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

My mother had narcissistic personality disorder as diagnosed by multiple professionals. Basically she was the center of the universe, and anyone who didn't orbit around her properly got blasted away. She was also a violent individual when she didn't get her way and abused prescription drugs.

 

I could tell story after story about how she tried to control her family and so-called friends. Thankfully I was the child who realized the truth and distanced myself both geographically and emotionally, and she mostly left me alone after that.

 

Just one example though. When my dad died, she told me that she'd kill me if I showed up. I ignored her and stayed with a relative far enough away that she couldn't get there. She told people that I probably wouldn't come to the funeral because I was in and out of mental hospitals. I couldn't figure out why people were treating me so strangely, and then someone told me. Talk about feeling awkward!

 

This is a decent short article: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/08/04/how-to-spot-a-narcissist/.

I lived in China for a number of years and my mother told everyone (my friends and relatives) while I was overseas that I had been brainwashed by Chinese communists. I guess that was the only reason she could find to explain why I wanted to be there. She had called 3 of my friends the night before I returned to see if they'd meet me at the airport to take me to a treatment center. Thank God they didn't buy her story but all the people who didn't know better treated me like I was fragile and I didn't understand why until my childhood best friend told me about the plan to "deprogram" me. There are perfectly lovely people out there who believe so many lies she's told about me. It used to bother me but so what if people think I'm an evil, hurtful, ungrateful, brainwashed, communist, Catholic (she refuses to acknowledge that there is a difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism)?

[Sdel]

and lest anyone think the stories are "out there" - it's common.  a *week* after I got married (we'd just gotten back from our honeymoon), gm tried to convince me dh was having an affair - because that's what *all* men do who travel out of town on business.  she really hated that I married him. 

 

 

 

Oh, the stories and revisionist history.  I really hate that particular aspect of NPD.  And it runs in generations of families. 

 

DH's ex is NPD.  The stories DH has told me about her family.....well they include unconvicted murder, siblings chasing another one down with knives, spectacular suicide by cop, the great lengths they go to hide military deployments from mom, etc....

 

And the stepkids....well one is co-dependent currently married to a NPD manipulator. The other is NPD and has cut us off because we won't be his pawns.  The third kid was the scapegoat....he has his issues, but they seem to be from other problems.

 

Stefanie

[gardenmom5]

. There are perfectly lovely people out there who believe so many lies she's told about me.

 

bless them.  aren't they lucky they don't have an NPD person in their intimate family circle?

 

the behavior can be so outrageous - it can be very hard for someone on the outside, for whom such behavior is outside the realm of their own experience and is inconceivable, to comprehend there is no exaggeration going on at all when describing their behavior.

[The Bobby Soxer]

Hugs to everyone who deals with NPD family members!

It's a bizarre world and easy to forget which way is up if you're not careful.

[Joyofsixreboot]

So if a person is worried they have NPD they probably don't?

[MaeFlowers]

Do people with NPD have mulitple personalities? I dont know how else to describe it but you never know which version you are going to get when you see them. For example, you see them on Monday, they are happy, go-lucky, and your bestest friend ever. On Tuesday, they stand there with their arms crossed and barely say a word to you.

My dh has a relative that I am always suspected is NPD. Well, not always. For a long time I thought it would be okay and that it was something I was doing wrong. After getting hurt enough times, I walked away. (Though I still have to see in every once in a while.) Most of this thread is a pretty good discription of her behavior. With her, it is very subtle. The never knowing where I stand with her thing really throws me, though. I've never met anyone else who does anything like it.

[Ausmumof3]

Do people with NPD have mulitple personalities? I dont know how else to describe it but you never know which version you are going to get when you see them. For example, you see them on Monday, they are happy, go-lucky, and your bestest friend ever. On Tuesday, they stand there with their arms crossed and barely say a word to you.

My dh has a relative that I am always suspected is NPD. Well, not always. For a long time I thought it would be okay and that it was something I was doing wrong. After getting hurt enough times, I walked away. (Though I still have to see in every once in a while.) Most of this thread is a pretty good discription of her behavior. With her, it is very subtle. The never knowing where I stand with her thing really throws me, though. I've never met anyone else who does anything like it.

Sounds more like borderline personality disorder

[livetoread]

There are people, and then there are diagnoses. NPD describes some people well, and it fits them pretty consistently over very long stretches of time. Other people show most or some of the symptoms, but it takes on different forms, or it lessens to annoying but not diagnosable when things are less stressful, or there are elements of other personality disorders mixed in that come and go etc. IOWs personality disorders are not always textbook. The behaviors are crazy-making to those around them - at least that is pretty consistent!

 

I think some of the most destructive people are those with a mixture of NPD and sociopathy. In my experience, true NPDs are too dysfunctional to fool most people for very long. That extra dose of sociopathy though gives them enough people smarts to hide the extent of their dysfunction for longer.

 

So to answer the question of whether therapy and/or drugs can help? It totally depends. Even with a diagnosis that generally doesn't have much success with treatment, everyone is an individual and who knows? Being realistic doesn't have to mean being hopeless. I hope your friend's husband can find some useful help and benefit from it.

[MaeFlowers]

Sounds more like borderline personality disorder

 

 

There are people, and then there are diagnoses. NPD describes some people well, and it fits them pretty consistently over very long stretches of time. Other people show most or some of the symptoms, but it takes on different forms, or it lessens to annoying but not diagnosable when things are less stressful, or there are elements of other personality disorders mixed in that come and go etc. IOWs personality disorders are not always textbook. The behaviors are crazy-making to those around them - at least that is pretty consistent!

 

I think some of the most destructive people are those with a mixture of NPD and sociopathy. In my experience, true NPDs are too dysfunctional to fool most people for very long. That extra dose of sociopathy though gives them enough people smarts to hide the extent of their dysfunction for longer.

 

So to answer the question of whether therapy and/or drugs can help? It totally depends. Even with a diagnosis that generally doesn't have much success with treatment, everyone is an individual and who knows? Being realistic doesn't have to mean being hopeless. I hope your friend's husband can find some useful help and benefit from it.

I looked up borderline personality disorder and the symptoms do not really fit. However, the majority of the NPD behaviors and antisocial personality disorder behaviors do. She's very crafty.

[G5052]

bless them.  aren't they lucky they don't have an NPD person in their intimate family circle?

 

the behavior can be so outrageous - it can be very hard for someone on the outside, for whom such behavior is outside the realm of their own experience and is inconceivable, to comprehend there is no exaggeration going on at all when describing their behavior.

 

Yes, I can't count the number of times that various people tried to convince me that I could sit down with my mother and patch things up.

 

The supreme was when someone I barely knew got on my case because I wouldn't move her into my home when her dementia began making the NPD worse than ever.  My mother had been physically abusive within our family for years had attacked other family members and friends multiple time as well.  She was nearly committed to the state mental hospital several times during that period because of her delusions and violence towards the staff.

 

And I was supposed to take her into my home?

[fdrinca]

So if a person is worried they have NPD they probably don't?

 

Define "worried" - 

 

"worried" that others will find out?

"worried" that the family dysfunction you create will expose how imperfect your world is?

 

I think someone can have NPD and know it. I'm not sure it would generate any sense of concern or need for change from the individual, however.

[Rosie_0801]

So if a person is worried they have NPD they probably don't?

 

Possibly. Or perhaps "thou doth protest too much."

Normal people who worry they are selfish turn over new leaves and behave better. And don't justify themselves back into their former habits.