NOOOOOO!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Stories about families like this make me alternately glad that no one is scrutinizing my house and family and glad because what I thought were my failings don't make the grade in comparison.  

[Orthodox6]

I feel so bad for the kids. They're split up, they're likely experiencing culture shock, and they've been taught that their foster families are evil kidnappers--or at least in cahoots with kidnappers. I hope their eyes will be opened to the truth and they're well cared for now.

 

If they look themselves up on the Internet, they will find headlines featuring such values-skewed words as:

kidnapped

seized

yanked

etc.

 

I have yet to see a headline featuring the word

rescued

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If they look themselves up on the Internet, they will find headlines featuring such values-skewed words as:

kidnapped

seized

yanked

etc.

 

I have yet to see a headline featuring the word

rescued

 

Profundity.

 

I'll be thinking on this for awhile.

[unsinkable]

I'm guessing if they're at the point that their shed was repossessed, the "someone else" providing the attorney is the government, and they're using a public defender. They're just not saying that because they're not accepting things like food stamps.

 

I'd also guess that the whackadoodles taking to facebook are either also just as resentful of government, heard only one side of the story through someone like Alex Jones, or are also criminals or homeless.

 

What I can't figure out is how any woman would let her children live in that way, or why she would resent having a well & septic system, let alone not use them.  Can someone in the area on well water please comment on what the costs would be to have the well tested & used?

 

My guesses: mental illness, spousal abuse, substance abuse. Plus the fact that it didn't start out that bad, that things were much worse at the end than they were in the beginning.

 

I think that is why she had such fans on her blog and FB...she didn't  move 10 kids into a lean-to surrounded by a fecal slurry at first. She moved into a structure with sides, a roof and a stove. Her kids were doing cool things. She was posting beautiful pictures of their land and animals, and of the dogs she groomed.

[unsinkable]

I'm guessing they probably have so many physical, mental, and emotional needs that the academic issues will likely take a backseat, anyway.

 

You and I both have kids with special medical needs. Think about all those appointments, times 2-4 kids that aren't your own and that have been traumatized and neglected, possibly abused...

 

I think if I were a foster parent I would really be hoping for health and some kind of stability in time for school in the fall as my best outcome, and get on the academic situation closer to registration time.

 

(I've never been a foster parent. This is just what makes sense to me from 'way out here.)

 

which of her kids have what special medical needs?

[Word Nerd]

If they look themselves up on the Internet, they will find headlines featuring such values-skewed words as:

kidnapped

seized

yanked

etc.

 

I have yet to see a headline featuring the word

rescued

 

It's quite sad.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

which of her kids have what special medical needs?

 

I didn't say any of them did; I was thinking of Ottakee's post upthread about what foster families go through in these situations if the children need counseling and health care. I was saying to (how to type her name? LOL the person I quoted) that it would probably feel like what we go through with our kids' medical appts, which are very hard even for a single child...only made more difficult b/c of the circumstances of fostering children who have been removed from their homes.

[MistyMountain]

I am usually very much for not taking kids away from a family. I also have experienced that kids can be taken from a family where I do not think it is the best move. I think it is better when CPS works to keep families together rather then take them away.

 

There have been other families that have been snarked on online that I do not think those children should be removed. With the living environment of these children they needed to be removed. It is sad how the parents obviously do not get it. This should have been a wake up call but it is not. There are in denial. It is sad that because of media attention most people who really do not know the full story they get all this money from gofundme that they will probably not put to good use. It makes no sense to be against stable government help to get back on your feet but mooching off others is totes cool.

 

I missed the burn incident and the turtle incident but they are living in squalor right now and they are lucky to still have all ten children. You can see how the land deteriorated through the picture of the dirty pond. I have seen better buildings in shanty towns. People who live in shanties do get better supplies like brick when they can and improve their conditions.

 

In Alaska there was this really large fundamental family that lived off the land in primitive conditions. They illegally cut trees down where they were not suppose to and people were not crazy about their presence. It later came out the much older father was abusing his children and raped one of his daughters. The children all fled when he was caught.

 

It reminds me of this family I knew a while back where the dad was this very controlling religious guy who did not think women had any insight. They were basically homeless and had a huge family but the kids were all grown by then.

[unsinkable]

I didn't say any of them did; I was thinking of Ottakee's post upthread about what foster families go through in these situations if the children need counseling and health care. I was saying to (how to type her name? LOL the person I quoted) that it would probably feel like what we go through with our kids' medical appts, which are very hard even for a single child...only made more difficult b/c of the circumstances of fostering children who have been removed from their homes.

 

Oh, it seemed like you were specifically talking about this family, based on the sequence of posts.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Χά�ων]

I'm guessing they probably have so many physical, mental, and emotional needs that the academic issues will likely take a backseat, anyway.

 

You and I both have kids with special medical needs. Think about all those appointments, times 2-4 kids that aren't your own and that have been traumatized and neglected, possibly abused...

 

I think if I were a foster parent I would really be hoping for health and some kind of stability in time for school in the fall as my best outcome, and get on the academic situation closer to registration time.

 

(I've never been a foster parent. This is just what makes sense to me from 'way out here.)

 

 

which of her kids have what special medical needs?

She was talking to me. As things currently stand, there is no public knowledge of a special medical needs child in that family. I hope that continues to be the case.

 

My son would not have lived through this past winter there. That is assuming he had gotten him medical care when he was younger and he had made it to that point. From the level of poverty it appears they are living, there is just no way he would be alive unless they were able to figure out how to pay thousands each month OOP for medicine (if they believed he needed the medicine). Going by their anti government help stance they would not have gone for medicaid. 

 

I am looking at this through the lens of parenting a child with a chronic medical condition who needs frequent, ongoing medical care. He would not be here.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

testing -- ΧάÏων. Ah. Cut and paste.

 

Also, my son, the Greek student, helped me out here, so now I know your name and from whence it comes. So sorry. :)

[FaithManor]

Rescued is the true word for what has happened.

 

However, I suppose that "rescues" do not garner as much frenzy as "kidnapped" in social media. It's all about the attention.

[MinivanMom]

I feel so bad for the kids. They're split up, they're likely experiencing culture shock, and they've been taught that their foster families are evil kidnappers--or at least in cahoots with kidnappers. I hope their eyes will be opened to the truth and they're well cared for now.

 

I imagine the transition will be much easier for the little ones.

 

I can't imagine the heartbreak for the older siblings who may have been separated from the younger siblings they had been raising. In families like this, it is very common for the oldest child or children to step into a parental role. Being split into separate foster homes must be so traumatic for them, like they lost their own babies. My heart breaks just thinking about it. I wish there was some way the children could be kept together.

[Forget-Me-Not]

testing -- ΧάÏων. Ah. Cut and paste.

 

Also, my son, the Greek student, helped me out here, so now I know your name and from whence it comes. So sorry. :)

 

Total hijack--can someone fill me in on the pronunciation?  It messes with me every time I come across it and can't "say" it in my head :D

 

 

[Butter]

What I can't figure out is how any woman would let her children live in that way, or why she would resent having a well & septic system, let alone not use them.  Can someone in the area on well water please comment on what the costs would be to have the well tested & used?

 

My parents have a well (a shallow one at that; old house).  They had it tested for pretty cheap.  Less than 100 bucks.  I think a lot less.  For a couple hundred they get their septic pumped.  I don't at all get why they haven't had it tested or why she'd be upset that there were existing well and septic on the property.  Most people would be thrilled to start with that.

[Laura Corin]

Total hijack--can someone fill me in on the pronunciation?  It messes with me every time I come across it and can't "say" it in my head :D

 

 

 

It's Charon (I believe the 'ch' is as in 'loch' or the 'j' in 'jalapeno' - so a rough, back of the throat sound).

[Mimm]

My parents have a well (a shallow one at that; old house).  They had it tested for pretty cheap.  Less than 100 bucks.  I think a lot less.  For a couple hundred they get their septic pumped.  I don't at all get why they haven't had it tested or why she'd be upset that there were existing well and septic on the property.  Most people would be thrilled to start with that.

 

I think it messed up her "starting from absolute scratch" ideal.

[TeenagerMom]

Re: Special Needs, Mom has admitted that one of her sons is more than likely autistic but does ok on the Homestead because she allows him to have control over his responsibilities.

 

Who knows what other issues may be there. Kind of hard to know if a child has never been to see a doctor, etc.

[Orthodox6]

Total hijack--can someone fill me in on the pronunciation?  It messes with me every time I come across it and can't "say" it in my head :D

 

 

 

Khahron.  The "Kh" is sort of gutteral.  The "ah" is something close to the "a" in "far".  The "on" is . . . well it's the way we pronounce Greek, and I don't know how to put it in writing! 

[Acorn]

I'm glad there's another thread. I can't stop thinking about those children.

And, since we all read about composting toilets, I do not have faith that this family actually constructed a real one, here's an interesting article

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150513-these-animals-use-public-toilets

 

Even ants have better housekeeping practices than these folks.

[Ottakee]

I imagine the transition will be much easier for the little ones.

 

I can't imagine the heartbreak for the older siblings who may have been separated from the younger siblings they had been raising. In families like this, it is very common for the oldest child or children to step into a parental role. Being split into separate foster homes must be so traumatic for them, like they lost their own babies. My heart breaks just thinking about it. I wish there was some way the children could be kept together.

In this situation, it would be great if there was a group home with house parents who had extra help that could take all 10.  Normally foster homes can only be licensed for 4 foster kids and a total of 8 kids (including bios under 18).  You can get a license for up to 6 foster kids.  Honestly though, having even 4 of them is going to be a LOT of work.  They will have some many appointments in the beginning, likely sleeping/eating/behavioral issues----even just due to the trauma, court stuff, parental visits, sibling visits, etc.  It would be super hard for any one family to take in all 10 without some other full time help during the day.  You just can't take 9 other kids with you to each child's appointment and they can't be left home without an approved adult caregiver, etc.

[MistyMountain]

I dreamed of having an off the grid house with solar panels or wind energy and animals. Once the kids were born I realized how hard it was to make that come into fruition with having to work, needing somewhere to live while it is being built having money saved and figuring out how to build and grow things , plus take care of animals while doing the mothering thing and quickly realized we just were not in a position to do it. There are families that are able to and that is great they can make it work.

 

This is also similar to The Glass Castle. It seems like if what that person said is true the father is dysfunctional and probably has substance abuse problems and more and it causes depression in the mom. To bad that this was not the wake up call for her to get them in a better situation with hopefully supports in place without him. It also sounds like they need to rehome those animals because the just cannot handle the waste and I do not see that changing. It is hard to have a family that size and animas to care for.

[Desert Strawberry]

I'm glad there's another thread. I can't stop thinking about those children.

 

And, since we all read about composting toilets, I do not have faith that this family actually constructed a real one, here's an interesting article

 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150513-these-animals-use-public-toilets

 

Even ants have better housekeeping practices than these folks.

There are many methods to build a compost toilet. The simplest, cheapest, and the one it looks like they made, and also what we will be using is a three-part system. There's the toilet-a five gallon bucket with a seat, another five gallon bucket filled with pine chips, wood shavings, coconut coir, or peat moss, and a compost heap in another part of the property. 

You do your business in the bucket( or two buckets if you want to separate liquid from solid), cover with a scoop or two of absorbent matter, and when it is reasonably full, introduce the contents into the compost heap. 

This method requires a good bit of space. You wouldn't want the compost heap near living quarters or food gardens.  The potty can be kept indoors, but is usually in an outhouse. Ours will look similar to theirs, except we will probably use pvc pipe and shower curtains instead of sticks. Wood attracts scorpions. Ouch.

 

Here's a simple potty 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Products-Luggable-Portable-Gallon/dp/B000FIAPXO

 

This might be the one thing they are doing right.

[MinivanMom]

In this situation, it would be great if there was a group home with house parents who had extra help that could take all 10.  Normally foster homes can only be licensed for 4 foster kids and a total of 8 kids (including bios under 18).  You can get a license for up to 6 foster kids.  Honestly though, having even 4 of them is going to be a LOT of work.  They will have some many appointments in the beginning, likely sleeping/eating/behavioral issues----even just due to the trauma, court stuff, parental visits, sibling visits, etc.  It would be super hard for any one family to take in all 10 without some other full time help during the day.  You just can't take 9 other kids with you to each child's appointment and they can't be left home without an approved adult caregiver, etc.

 

A group home would be ideal.

 

I just imagine that the children have been such a support system to one another. It would be so much less traumatic for them to stay together, especially during the initial transition.

[Renai]

OT, but you know it's bad when I check here first for more news.

[Xuzi]

I was just wondering if the there were any updates. When is the next court date?

[Desert Strawberry]

does anyone know what the criminal charges were that they were facing?

 

[Desert Strawberry]

IIRC, the mom was being charged with resisting arrest, and the dad was being charged for threatening someone with a weapon... or something like that.

Ah.  I was wondering if it was something like that, or child endangerment, or something unrelated. 

[NorthwestMom]

I was just wondering if the there were any updates. When is the next court date?

 

Yes. I actually cleaned a closet this morning while DD was doing algebra problems. I need a distraction from actual work. This thread needs new material... outrageous links.... come on, people!

[Katy]

Bumping until there's more news.

[imagine.more]

Ah.  I was wondering if it was something like that, or child endangerment, or something unrelated. 

 

Yeah I wish they did child endangerment charges for parents whose kids have to be taken into state custody and for whom things are substantiated of course. I can't believe DD's birth mom never got charged with any of the like 5 things she could have knowing the conditions the kids were in and the suspected issues going on. It kinda makes me mad she got away with no financial or personal ramifications and never bothered to visit the kids or anything. Luckily she broke the law later for something fairly minor and got arrested but of course someone bailed her out. Sometimes these things just don't make sense to me, but really as a foster parent I never heard of any birth parent being charged with anything criminal even though the criminal activities were what caused the kids to be removed permanently. I guess they figure taking the kids away is consequence enough? I dunno, I'd love to know the reasoning behind how that stuff is handled. 

[Ottakee]

Yeah I wish they did child endangerment charges for parents whose kids have to be taken into state custody and for whom things are substantiated of course. I can't believe DD's birth mom never got charged with any of the like 5 things she could have knowing the conditions the kids were in and the suspected issues going on. It kinda makes me mad she got away with no financial or personal ramifications and never bothered to visit the kids or anything. Luckily she broke the law later for something fairly minor and got arrested but of course someone bailed her out. Sometimes these things just don't make sense to me, but really as a foster parent I never heard of any birth parent being charged with anything criminal even though the criminal activities were what caused the kids to be removed permanently. I guess they figure taking the kids away is consequence enough? I dunno, I'd love to know the reasoning behind how that stuff is handled. 

We have a foster care case right now and the mom WAS charge (and plead guilty) to a child abuse charge.  Of course, she spent 30 days in jail and is now working on reunification..............and this is the 3rd time children were removed.

 

Honestly though, in over 100 foster care cases the parents never went to criminal court for the child abuse charges (before this current case) and only very very rarely had to face the criminal courts for other things---drugs, drunk driving, other felonies, etc.

 

Sadly, you can get a bigger rap sheet and serve more jail time for animal abuse/neglect than you do for child abuse/neglect in many cases.

[TeenagerMom]

The Mom updated that she was holding her babies at a supervised visit. She must really be off her rocker to post on social media DURING a supervised visit when she should be interacting with her kids. She also posted, then removed that they were reunited for the a weekend long supervised visit.

[Ottakee]

The Mom updated that she was holding her babies at a supervised visit. She must really be off her rocker to post on social media DURING a supervised visit when she should be interacting with her kids. She also posted, then removed that they were reunited for the a weekend long supervised visit.

IF she is posting on facebook DURING a visit that will not look good.  Hopefully that part isn't true.

 

I also HIGHLY doubt that they had a WEEKEND long supervised visit.  Unless they have family that has an approved home and are all clearanced checked that is likely NOT happening.  I can't imagine ANY worker supervising at their current "home" for even an hour, let alone a weekend.  Generally all visits are done at the agency in a supervised room----either with a supervisor physically IN the room or once some trust is established in another room watching by video/audio monitor.....which at our agency is all recorded.

 

I wonder if this is mom's wishful thinking, not reality.

[prairiewindmomma]

I'm with Ottakee---in our state supervised visits either happen at a center or at an approved home where everyone has been clearance checked with a supervisor physically in the room or watching via video. There's a fair amount of bureaucracy involved---fees paid upfront, sometimes drug testing of the parents, etc.

 

Weekend visits typically don't happen this early on, and they certainly wouldn't happen without major improvements being made. 

 

I had a legal aid client once who had to go to a relative's house for parenting time because his travel trailer parked at nearby campsite was deemed inadequate by the judge---& that had plumbing facilities. Until there is a separate bed for each child, basic sanitation, and evaluations completed, I'm gonna call BS on a weekend visit.

[Jyhwkmama]

"Sitting here with my 10 children. Mosiah won't leave my lap. You have no idea how good this feels.

We have a supervised visit till court on Monday. I will update more. I am busy hugging my children.

‪#‎Blessed‬"

 

 

from the BLH FB Page 2 hours ago

[hornblower]

I just read she's pregnant?! 

[unsinkable]

I just read she's pregnant?!

Yes.

[TeenagerMom]

I think an administrator posted about the weekend visit because they misconstrued her post. I think she meant they get a supervised visit until they go to court on Monday. Going by KY DCS guidelines, they would have had their case planning meeting today (5 days after 72 HR court date) so that's why they got a visit. Court on Monday would be when they present the judge with a case plan for approval. Those children probably will not be going home for a long time. If there was no concern with the living arrangements, etc. They would have HAD to return them on Monday at the 72 HR court mark.

 

EtA these people make the Stanleys look like saints and it has taken them several months to get full custody of the youngers back and still don't have legal authority over the olders.

[Ottakee]

"Sitting here with my 10 children. Mosiah won't leave my lap. You have no idea how good this feels.

We have a supervised visit till court on Monday. I will update more. I am busy hugging my children.

‪#‎Blessed‬"

 

 

from the BLH FB Page 2 hours ago

I bet what she means is that they ONLY have supervised visits until court on Monday..........not a visit UNTIL Monday.

 

Given the younger ages of her kids, she likely gets 2-3 hours a week, possibly more, but maybe only as much as 1 hour a week.  Not sure how KY works.

I had a legal aid client once who had to go to a relative's house for parenting time because his travel trailer parked at nearby campsite was deemed inadequate by the judge---& that had plumbing facilities. Until there is a separate bed for each child, basic sanitation, and evaluations completed, I'm gonna call BS on a weekend visit.

 

I wonder if CPS even has the expertise to judge whether the "homestead" is safe.  I'm just a city mouse, as I'm sure the rest of the social workers are -- I know about city stuff, like not having exposed electrical wires, and keeping cleaning fluids out of reach of littles.  I have no idea how to manage wastewater without a septic system, proper procedures for livestock, etc. etc.  I wonder if CPS even has guidelines about this kind of stuff.

[NorthwestMom]

I wonder if CPS even has the expertise to judge whether the "homestead" is safe.  I'm just a city mouse, as I'm sure the rest of the social workers are -- I know about city stuff, like not having exposed electrical wires, and keeping cleaning fluids out of reach of littles.  I have no idea how to manage wastewater without a septic system, proper procedures for livestock, etc. etc.  I wonder if CPS even has guidelines about this kind of stuff.

 

I bet CPS in Kentucky has guidelines for rural living. There's PLENTY of rural areas in Kentucky.

[imagine.more]

I wonder if CPS even has the expertise to judge whether the "homestead" is safe.  I'm just a city mouse, as I'm sure the rest of the social workers are -- I know about city stuff, like not having exposed electrical wires, and keeping cleaning fluids out of reach of littles.  I have no idea how to manage wastewater without a septic system, proper procedures for livestock, etc. etc.  I wonder if CPS even has guidelines about this kind of stuff.

 

Hm, good question.

 

Given the parents' Facebook statements though it seems like they're not even planning to build a main living structure yet so I think that would need to be in place first before the details about proper fencing/maintenance of livestock, septic vs outhouse vs composting toilet, and well vs city water vs hauling fresh water was discussed. I'm thinking 4 walls + roof + insulation is the first step, then water and toilet, then beds and proper food in the house. Plus I assume they're still investigating to rule out physical abuse allegations and any signs of emotional abuse or anything given the stories from the oldest son and a few community people. 

 

I think it'd be smart of CPS to bring in some sort of 'expert' at some point to advise them on adequate vs inadequate methods of water and sewage for a farm/homestead. That'd cover their own behinds so nobody can claim they didn't give the benefit of the doubt and try to meet the parents where they're at. 

 

My guess is there's no way these kids will return before the end of summer at the earliest, and that'd be *if* the parents did everything as asked, were model birth parents trying to improve their behavior, and had very good lawyers representing them. 

 

I just hope either the parents or CPS get a really solid plan in place to fix the situation before the new baby comes. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I seem to be the only one who is either jaded enough or pessimistic enough to think that these parents might have the kids given back next week. . .   I hope not but like I said, I'm a bit jaded.  

[Mergath]

I wonder if CPS even has the expertise to judge whether the "homestead" is safe.  I'm just a city mouse, as I'm sure the rest of the social workers are -- I know about city stuff, like not having exposed electrical wires, and keeping cleaning fluids out of reach of littles.  I have no idea how to manage wastewater without a septic system, proper procedures for livestock, etc. etc.  I wonder if CPS even has guidelines about this kind of stuff.

 

 

My guess is that the amount of feces probably laying around that place was enough for CPS to step in. You don't need to be an expert to know that feces and piles of rotting garbage (which probably include who-knows-how-many poopy diapers) aren't a safe environment for young children. From what I've read and seen of the place, wastewater and livestock procedures probably aren't even a blip on CPS's radar yet. 

[Mergath]

I seem to be the only one who is either jaded enough or pessimistic enough to think that these parents might have the kids given back next week. . .   I hope not but like I said, I'm a bit jaded.  

 

If they rented an apartment like a normal person in that situation would, they probably would have the kids back next week.

 

I highly doubt that with the state of their "house," however, they'll have the kids back even within the next couple of months. With the amount of media attention this case has gotten, there's no way CPS will put the kids back in that environment before major improvements have been made. It wouldn't be worth the backlash they'd get if they did give the kids back immediately and one of them was seriously injured or killed from living there.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I imagine that, even if they did want to rent at this point, they'd find it difficult to (a) find anyone who would rent to 12 going on 13 people and (b) find anyone who'd rent to them, period, since those pictures and stories have circulated.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Haha, great minds Kinsa. We posted at the same time :D

[Farrar]

I have only six kids, but I can vouch for how difficult it is to find anyone who is willing to rent to a "large family". With ten kids, I'm willing to bet those places are few and far between.

 

Someone on one of my local groups was just asking for help on this, saying it was tough because while they could make do with fewer bedrooms easily, there were occupancy laws that meant they couldn't rent unless it had a certain number.

[imagine.more]

I have only six kids, but I can vouch for how difficult it is to find anyone who is willing to rent to a "large family". With ten kids, I'm willing to bet those places are few and far between.

 

Yeah, I won't lie, we didn't bother telling our new landlords that I'm pregnant because we were afraid of them getting scared off by that. 

 

The fact is that people like to hear you have 1-2 kids, that means you're settled down, but 4 they think "whoa, big family" and more than 4 and the response seems to when you've officially hopped aboard the crazy train ;) 

 

Similarly 1-2 cats is acceptable, but 4 cats means crazy cat lady, haha! And yes, we have 4 cats, but never will I do that again! They are more work than the 4 kids I swear, oy!