Repercussions of Common Core - Pushing Alg I back to 9th grade

[3andme]

I'm not really conversant with the Common Core standards but they seem to be causing some dramatic changes in the High school level math programs at least in California. I was curious if others are seeing a realignment in their school districts.

 

As a little background, for many years California pushed for all students to take Algebra 1 in 8th grade while more advanced students were often given the opportunity to take it in 7th. They finally abandoned the 8th grade Alg. requirement in 2013 . Recently, it seems the pendulum is swinging in the complete opposite direction due to CC.

 

Now, virtually all students,including advanced ones, in many districts will have to wait until 9th grade to take the Algebra I course. Apparently, the schools feel the more rigorous CC middle school courses cannot be compacted or skipped as they once were to accelerate students and they recommend that all students take the same grade level classes. However, the later Algebra 1 start causes a problem for students who want to complete Calculus before graduating from high school. The solutions offered for this are to double up on the math courses in high school or condense Alg II/Pre-Calc into a one year class. Here's a FAQ from the San Francisco school district on the changes.

 

This push is happening even in some of the most affluent and high performing school districts in California such as those in Silicon Valley and Marin.  In one district I'm familiar with, the entire math department apparently disagreed with the changes  but they are being implemented nonetheless. Previously, the district had several levels of Algebra (an accelerated, normal, and slower paced classes were available). Now, only one level of Algebra will be offered and classes will include students at all different levels of math aptitude.Even at Lowell, SF's most academic public high school, they are requiring this. In some districts, changes have been made after parental pushback (see here, here and here).

 

Personally, I think they're making a mistake with this one size for all approach and requiring doubling up in high school instead of middle school to get to Calc but I guess time will tell. I live in Washington State and I have not heard of these changes in our school district but I think we were later adopters of CC.

[Joker]

It's still offered starting in 7th grade here. My youngest will be taking it next year in 8th. This fall they're actually adding a high school level science as well that she will also be taking. So, at least here it's not pushing things back.

[Farrar]

To be clear, this is implementation, not a requirement of CC.

[amsunshine]

Here, the district is switching over to Integrated Maths I, II, and III.  These vaguely correlate to Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II, respectively.  And yes, it seems that most consider Integrated Maths I a 9th grade course, but I believe the schools will still allow for students to take placement exams and move forward more quickly through the material if necessary.

 

I've seen the CME books for levels I and II.  I was not impressed.  But that comes from doing Singapore practically all the way through, with AoPS mixed in here and there.  I'm glad to see a switch to Integrated Maths, particularly if the goal is to supposedly become more competitive internationally.  However, I'm not sure how the goal will be reached with the materials currently being used.  

 

 

[wapiti]

What's the saying, stupid is as stupid does.  Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes...  I wonder whether it would be interesting to have a discussion (argument) with the proponents of this one-size-fits-all approach or whether these people - whoever they are - just don't have a clue (IME, it's much easier to have a productive argument with someone who has a clue).

 

Maybe they feel hamstrung by the Common Core's strong language against acceleration in the appendix to the standards, but that's just a recommendation.  Or, maybe the way the standards are laid out year by year makes acceleration simply impractical.  I suspect the latter.

 

I'm not aware of any such change in our state.  Our district has repudiated CC even though the state is bound by the standards, so there's no change in my district (neighborhood middle school has three tracks for alg 1, gifted in 7th, advanced in 8th and regular in 9th).

 

ETA, if this move hangs on for a while, it'll be interesting to see whether there's any sort of downstream affect in the realm of competitive college admissions.

 

Maybe it'll just mean more business for tutors and online course offerings such as AoPS, at least from families of greater means.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm in Silicon Valley in CA, and the push to Algebra 1 normed in 8th grade has had very poor results here.

Some kids end up taking Algebra 1 three times, because they never got the prerequisites, and crash out of math. 

In order to appear accelerated, they had to take it in 7th grade.  If they didn't quite get it, they had to take it again in 8th ('normal') instead of backing up to a solid pre-algebra class.  And then if they still didn't get it, repeat it in 9th.  I have known some very bright kids who totally gave up on math for this reason.  It's nuts.

 

In general, education requirements in CA seem to veer wildly between extremes, more so than I hear about elsewhere.

 

Whole language vs. scripted phonics.

 

Totally development K vs. nutsy academic full day K.

 

And now we see the same thing with the math wars. 

 

It's really disappointing.

 

 

[Arcadia]

My average district and at least another two nearby affluent and high performing districts are keeping algebra 1 at 7th grade for the next school year. That was part of the reason why the SFUSD parents protested. I'm in Silicon Valley.

My district's algebra 1 scores at 7th grade are much higher than the algebra 1 scores for kids who took it at 8th grade for state tests. Teachers pick the students who are able to cope with algebra 1 at 7th and there is a placement test of some sort at end of 6th. Parents can request.

[Lawyer&Mom]

The (affluent white, but not Silicon Valley) CA middle school attended back in the day now has an Accelerated Math 7 that incorporates half of Math 8, followed by Algebra 1 that incorporates the other half of Math 8. Finishing Alegbra 1 in eighth grade puts you on track to finish Calculus in high school. I don't know if this school ever did Algebra in 7th. They didn't when I attended, and I doubt they ever had enough kids for that many math tracks.

[MinivanMom]

This just sounds like growing pains to me. Some districts seem to be struggling more than others with how to implement Common Core. California seems also seems to be more prone to wild swings from one extreme to another (as another poster pointed out).

 

In our large, well-ranked, urban East-coast school district, the growing pains happened year before last. The district decreed that there would be no more math acceleration. All rising 6th graders would take Common Core Math 6 and would have to wait until 9th to take Algebra I. All the parents howled and implementation was a disaster, so the district backpedaled and went back to offering differentiation this year. Now 6th graders are tracked into CC Math 6, CC Math 6 Plus (covering 6 and half of 7, leading to Algebra in 8th), and Compacted CC Math 6 Plus/7 Plus (covering 6 & 7, leading to Algebra in 7th). For the kids who entered 6th grade the year before, they were just scr*wed. Some are taking CC Math 7 Plus to get back on track for Algebra in 8th, but none of them were able to take Algebra in 7th.

 

SFUSD will adjust their implementation back to tracking at some point. I just feel sorry for the STEM kids who are forced off track in the meantime.

[jniter]

I taught HS Math in Silicon Valley at both affluent and mixed-income schools. I am now home w/my kids and moved away, so it's interesting to hear what's new.

 

One of the districts I worked for (which emcompassed some of the "premier" Silicon Valley high schools) had progressively worse and worse results for their 9th graders taking Algebra 1. As more and more kids were scooped into Algebra 1 in 8th grade, it became clear that the mix of students we got in our 9th grade classes was all struggling students with a smattering of private school transfers who were pretty irritated when they realized what was going on.

 

Worse, those of us teaching Geometry were not convinced that 9th graders in our classes necessarily grasped Algebra 1 all that well. Many were fine, but a good number probably should have taken Algebra 1 as a 9th grader.

 

In another district I worked for, they had all sorts of middle school classes with different names all with the word "Algebra" in it. NO class was "Pre-Algebra". ALL my kids in 9th grade told me "But I already TOOK Algebra!" They were VERY confused. =P WELL, after a month or so, they realized I still had a thing or two to teach them. ;-)

 

Each district is going to implement things a little differently. I only share this experience because that context may explain why the requirement of Algebra 1 in 8th grade has fallen out of favor.

 

If parents are *that* concerned about having the kids take Calc before they finish HS, there are PLENTY of math enrichment programs in the Bay Area that cram an entire year of math into 8 or 10 weeks over the summer. Some districts allow you to take the course and then take a placement test to advance to the next course. I taught for one of those summer programs. I found kids who were prepared to jump levels and take the placement tests could have studied the material independently. The rest did not have strong fundamentals.

[Stellalarella]

I'm on board for making sure students have strong fundamentals before Algebra 1.  I think trying to force my oldest through Algebra 1 in 7th-8th grade was not wise.  He is a STEM kid who can use  CAD, program robots, build computers from scratch, etc.  He can spit out obscure facts about computers (no memory issues), understands electricity well enough to fix electronics and work as an electricians apprentice, and is really good at explaining to others how things work.  There was absolutely no advantage to forcing him through Algebra 1 that early.  I guess I could type this  in all caps because I want to shout it to the world.  SO NOT WORTH IT.  

 

I think I started him in Algebra before he had enough arm pit hair, if you know what I mean.  

 

I watched other adolescent boys in my neighborhood crash in their early algebra maths.  These are all kids with parents insistent on doing homework, high expectations, prepping-kid-to-be-college-bound.  

 

I'm imagining a classroom filled with students whose minds are not yet ready for Algebra 1 and also do not have the parental insistence and support.  

 

Nuts I tell you.  

 

If a kiddo is happy to learn Algebra 1 in 7th or 8th grade, by all means!  (Like my daughter!) but otherwise, I think 9th grade is a nice place to start.

[MinivanMom]

I'm on board for making sure students have strong fundamentals before Algebra 1.  I think trying to force my oldest through Algebra 1 in 7th-8th grade was not wise.  He is a STEM kid who can use  CAD, program robots, build computers from scratch, etc.  He can spit out obscure facts about computers (no memory issues), understands electricity well enough to fix electronics and work as an electricians apprentice, and is really good at explaining to others how things work.  There was absolutely no advantage to forcing him through Algebra 1 that early.  I guess I could type this  in all caps because I want to shout it to the world.  SO NOT WORTH IT.  

 

I think I started him in Algebra before he had enough arm pit hair, if you know what I mean.  

 

I watched other adolescent boys in my neighborhood crash in their early algebra maths.  These are all kids with parents insistent on doing homework, high expectations, prepping-kid-to-be-college-bound.  

 

I'm imagining a classroom filled with students whose minds are not yet ready for Algebra 1 and also do not have the parental insistence and support.  

 

Nuts I tell you.  

 

If a kiddo is happy to learn Algebra 1 in 7th or 8th grade, by all means!  (Like my daughter!) but otherwise, I think 9th grade is a nice place to start.

 

The issue is when Algebra in 7th or 8th grade becomes standard, then Algebra I in 9th begins to be considered remedial regardless of whether the course is labeled remedial.

 

Our district (which is suffering from these same swings) does not offer Algebra I in 9th grade. They offer a two-course sequence that covers Algebra I at half the pace. Students are then permanently on the regular math track and cannot get back onto the college prep track (partly due to district policy and partly due to the fact that once you are off honors you are always learning less math in each course and so are never solid enough to get back in honors). College prep kids take Algebra in 8th and accelerated STEM kids take Algebra in 7th, so the only kids left to take Algebra I in 9th are the remedial students who weren't solid on middle school math by 8th grade. It creates lowered expectations that become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Stellalarella]

The issue is when Algebra in 7th or 8th grade becomes standard, then Algebra I in 9th begins to be considered remedial regardless of whether the course is labeled remedial.

 

Our district (which is suffering from these same swings) does not offer Algebra I in 9th grade. They offer a two-course sequence that covers Algebra I at half the pace. Students are then permanently on the regular math track and cannot get back onto the college prep track (partly due to district policy and partly due to the fact that once you are off honors you are always learning less math in each course and so are never solid enough to get back in honors). College prep kids take Algebra in 8th and accelerated STEM kids take Algebra in 7th, so the only kids left to take Algebra I in 9th are the remedial students who weren't solid on middle school math by 8th grade. It creates lowered expectations that become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yes.

 

 I hear you.  I decided  to put ds through Algebra 1 when I heard what his public school cohort was doing.  I was fearful of him being "behind."  Gah on me!

 

Now we're finding out that one has to perfectly maintain all those algebra 1 and 2 skills so that one can do well on the ACT, which I am sorry to say has become the measure of all things.  When you look at it that way, the kid taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade will need to maintain that whole body of knowledge until spring of her junior year when she takes the ACT. 

 

And to make matters worse, I decided to put him through Foerster Algebra 1 and 2--a rigorous, classic set of books that prepare him well to go on and do higher math, but don't use the same style and language as the ACT.  You have to really know the algebra inside and out if you don't use the pipeline books.  

 

I about wanted to weep when I heard a local, very highly praised and sought-after Algebra 1 and 2 co-op teacher explain her course. To paraphrase:  I use the Glencoe book because the language is the same as what the kids will see on the ACT.  I teach them lots of calculator tricks so that they can get those 60 problems done in 60 minutes.  You really want an Algebra course that will get kids a good score on their ACT.

 

I guess learning the math is merely coincidental.  The main point of Algebra 1 is college scholarships.  

 

This is one of those places where the idealistic goal of educating the mind clashes with the poodle-hoop-jumping assembly line we call American Education.  

[Tsuga]

Our district has the standard to complete Calc by senior year; honors Calc II; gifted program (highly accelerated), linear algebra.

 

This was approved after the integration of CC into the curriculum.

 

(ETA: I crashed in 7th grade algebra with no support. There is some developmental thing going on there. My step-daughter is bright but finds it challenging and she has an hour of free tutoring and two college educated parents to go to, with backup from college-educated stepparents, aunts, uncles... I didn't have any of that. It's still hard for her.)

[Arcadia]

When you look at it that way, the kid taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade will need to maintain that whole body of knowledge until spring of her junior year when she takes the ACT.

 

... You have to really know the algebra inside and out if you don't use the pipeline books.

Whether it is ACT or SAT, most kids here do test prep (red ACT book or blue SAT book) regardless of textbooks used. My district and a few others have free test prep for their high school students.

There is also nothing to prevent a 9th grader from taking the ACT since the student can pick his/her best ACT score to submit for college app.

[jennynd]

We are in upstate ny. Our district offers 4 tracks. Regular track that take algebra at 9th. Honor on grade take "honor" algebra in 9th. 1 grade accelerated honor take algebra in 8th and 2 grade accelerate honor take algebra in 7th. There is no change due to common core.

[Mrs. Tharp]

I'm on board for making sure students have strong fundamentals before Algebra 1.  I think trying to force my oldest through Algebra 1 in 7th-8th grade was not wise.  He is a STEM kid who can use  CAD, program robots, build computers from scratch, etc.  He can spit out obscure facts about computers (no memory issues), understands electricity well enough to fix electronics and work as an electricians apprentice, and is really good at explaining to others how things work.  There was absolutely no advantage to forcing him through Algebra 1 that early.  I guess I could type this  in all caps because I want to shout it to the world.  SO NOT WORTH IT.  

 

I think I started him in Algebra before he had enough arm pit hair, if you know what I mean.  

 

I watched other adolescent boys in my neighborhood crash in their early algebra maths.  These are all kids with parents insistent on doing homework, high expectations, prepping-kid-to-be-college-bound.  

 

I'm imagining a classroom filled with students whose minds are not yet ready for Algebra 1 and also do not have the parental insistence and support.  

 

Nuts I tell you.  

 

If a kiddo is happy to learn Algebra 1 in 7th or 8th grade, by all means!  (Like my daughter!) but otherwise, I think 9th grade is a nice place to start.

 

I can't agree with this enough.

[MomatHWTK]

...

This is one of those places where the idealistic goal of educating the mind clashes with the poodle-hoop-jumping assembly line we call American Education.  

 More and more I am seeing high school as the most boring, uneducational part of our education because I have to make DS do the hoop-jump work.  :(  I am going to try to get through the "on the test" stuff as quickly as possible so we can get back to learning about cool stuff. ;)

[Mabelen]

Our district in Southern California is offering two tracks. Fifth grade students making 252 or above in their Winter or Spring Math MAPS go automatically into the compacted Math track in Middle School and are able to take an AP class their Senior year.  Students who score between 248 and 251 take another assessment to decide their placement either in the compacted or the regular track. This is my daughter's case right now.  Everybody else goes automatically in the regular track. Our school district is moving to an integrated Math sequence for High School. There is another opportunity to compact in High School if you didn't in Middle School. I don't know what criteria will be required at that point.

[VANURSEPRAC]

 

If parents are *that* concerned about having the kids take Calc before they finish HS, there are PLENTY of math enrichment programs in the Bay Area that cram an entire year of math into 8 or 10 weeks over the summer. Some districts allow you to take the course and then take a placement test to advance to the next course. I taught for one of those summer programs. I found kids who were prepared to jump levels and take the placement tests could have studied the material independently. The rest did not have strong fundamentals.

 

This is what I did. I live in Texas (non CC) but the TEKS were implemented this school year. I put  my 6th grader  in Mathnasium for grade acceleration by credit by exam. She passed the 7th grade math A CBE with flying colors. So I decided we could do what Mathnasium was doing at home and save the 325.00 monthly fee. So she self studied the entire 8th grade Texas middle school text and slayed the 7th grade math B credit  by exam.

 

So now she will be placed in Algebra I in 7th grade.  She is currently self studying Paul Foerster Alg 1 text.

 

 

Our district only offers regular 9th grade algebra or accelerated with algebra I in 8th grade.

 

[Butter]

To be clear, this is implementation, not a requirement of CC.

 

This.  In all three states where I've lived (2 pre-CC and Texas doesn't do CC), A1 could be taken in 8th, but did not have to be.  At least half the students, probably more, choose not to/are not reading in 8th and take it in 9th.  A very small number take it in 7th.

[MinivanMom]

Yes.

 

 I hear you.  I decided  to put ds through Algebra 1 when I heard what his public school cohort was doing.  I was fearful of him being "behind."  Gah on me!

 

Now we're finding out that one has to perfectly maintain all those algebra 1 and 2 skills so that one can do well on the ACT, which I am sorry to say has become the measure of all things.  When you look at it that way, the kid taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade will need to maintain that whole body of knowledge until spring of her junior year when she takes the ACT. 

 

And to make matters worse, I decided to put him through Foerster Algebra 1 and 2--a rigorous, classic set of books that prepare him well to go on and do higher math, but don't use the same style and language as the ACT.  You have to really know the algebra inside and out if you don't use the pipeline books.  

 

I about wanted to weep when I heard a local, very highly praised and sought-after Algebra 1 and 2 co-op teacher explain her course. To paraphrase:  I use the Glencoe book because the language is the same as what the kids will see on the ACT.  I teach them lots of calculator tricks so that they can get those 60 problems done in 60 minutes.  You really want an Algebra course that will get kids a good score on their ACT.

 

I guess learning the math is merely coincidental.  The main point of Algebra 1 is college scholarships.  

 

This is one of those places where the idealistic goal of educating the mind clashes with the poodle-hoop-jumping assembly line we call American Education.  

 

That's just terrible.

[Hunter]

In my experience, accelerating algebra results in college students needing to also take remedial basic math, instead of just remedial algebra.

 

Never mind 9th grade, a lot of students are not ready for algebra until 11th grade. Algebra for ALL in 8th, and God forbid in 7th, is not developmentally appropriate for "normal" students.

 

I had a 2E kid ready for algebra very early. The first thing we did when I pulled him out of PS was to start an Algebra 1 course. It was a shame that the PS was not able and willing to meet his needs. In no way do I think normal/majority kids should be sacrificed for the atypical/minority, though, even though  my kid's needs went unmet.

 

PS, first and foremost, is for the masses. 9th grade algebra is the lowest grade AMERICAN kids seem to be able to handle algebra at all, never mind truly being able to understand and retain it. It really doesn't matter what kids in other countries can do. There are thousands of possible reasons why our kids lag a bit in maths. Yes, it should be studied why, but in the meantime, lets deal with our masses where they are AT, not where we THINK they SHOULD be.

[MarkT]

Algebra 1 in the Common Core age is not your mother's Algebra 1.  The first 25% of the traditional Algebra 1 is covered in so-called CC 8th Grade Math. In this paradigm I believe only a very small percentage should take CC Algebra 1 in 7th grade. The regular advanced students should take the CC accelerated path with CC Algebra 1 in 8th Grade.  

 

From what I have seen, the PS/Charter accelerated programs are weak with plenty of students that don't belong. The schools want to be nice so Johnny takes Geometry in 8th Grade and falls further behind .

 

Yes there some really gifted kids and they can take it earlier.  One size does not fit all.

[Farrar]

It's mostly implementation. Obviously some districts are tackling this completely differently.

 

But a lot of the implementation makes it seem like they're forcing kids to sprint from kindergarten to about sixth grade and then force them to go at a snail's pace for the rest of their education. I'm for the opposite, honestly. Well, not the sprint per se, but just for being slow and gentle followed by increasing rigor, not for crazy rigor followed by empty hoop jumping.

[athomeontheprairie]

I find this thread interesting.

I was in the accelerated math course in school. Algebra wasn't offered until 8th grade. None who entered 9th grade taking algebra ended up in the calculus class, though it would be possible by doubling up.

where I currently live people think I'm crazy-algebra isn't offered AT ALL until high school.

[JanetC]

I also find it very interesting how many homeschoolers are really into the common core debate! If, like me, you're still trying to figure out what it's all about, the state of NY CC curriculum is free on line to browse here...

 

https://www.engageny.org/common-core-curriculum

[redsquirrel]

We are in upstate ny. Our district offers 4 tracks. Regular track that take algebra at 9th. Honor on grade take "honor" algebra in 9th. 1 grade accelerated honor take algebra in 8th and 2 grade accelerate honor take algebra in 7th. There is no change due to common core.

 

I live in upstate NY as well and my district has a similar, although not identical, path for Algebra 1.  I grew up in NY and went to public school here a loooooooong time ago and the path was almost identical. So, it has been going on for a very long time and has nothing to do with Common Core.

[school17777]

From what I have observed with my kids being in school, is that Algebra 1 should be a 9th grade course, except for the kids whole can handle it earlier.

 

In our school district, Alg 1 is an 8th grade course. I put my twins in school at 8th grade. They were on track to take Alg 1 in 8th grade. There was no placement test, but I asked for one, so the school had my kids take the last math test the 7th graders were taking. Ds only missed something because of a stupid mistake. Dd got a C on it. So, we decided that she should start at pre-algebra. There were only 3 8th graders in the pre-algebra class. In 9th grade, there were 3 Alg 1 classes. Why were there that many classes? Because that many kids didn't pass Alg 1 in 8th grade.

 

For dd, it was a really good decision to not have her take Alg 1 in 8th grade. She is really strong in math and confident about it (more important in my opinion). She doubled up with Alg 2 and Geometry in 10th grade, so she is finishing up with AP Calc this year.

 

I don't see a reason to push math ahead. The SAT math is based on Alg 2. Ds' 9th grade math teacher suggested that ds take Alg 2 on his own during 9th grade so he could complete Calc 2 by 12th grade. The guidance counselor advised against this because from her experience, kids who don't take Alg 2 in 10th grade, don't do as well on the SAT math portion in 11th grade even though the kids might be in Calc 1 or 2 by then. That's the way it worked out with our kids and their friends.

 

Also, when we checked into dual enrollment for our twins senior year, the college that we were going to send them to no longer lets high school students take Calc 1 while in high school because A students in high school were not doing well in the college Calc class, in their experience. (The two other colleges were still allowing it.) I am not sure how this is handled for homeschool students.

 

We have been told that the college where my twins are going will not accept their AP Calc test (assuming they got a 4 or 5) in leiu of the taking Calc. If they did get a 4 or 5, the credits will be accepted, but they will still have to take Calc (because their majors are in the science field - if they weren't, then it may be accepted as a math credit).

 

All this to say, that I don't think it is a problem for Alg 1 to be a 9th grade course! I do hope that truly accelerated students will be allowed to take it earlier.

[tmstranger]

wow...this is all very interesting!  For MONTHS, I have been struggling with where to place my ds in math.  I pulled him from ps because he was 2 years ahead in math, so in 5th grade, he would have a tutor one day/week from the middle school come over to teach him. 

 

His old class of math friends is doing "6th grade GT" math this year and moving to Algebra 1 next year (7th grade).  Since my ds will be going into 6th and starting Algebra 1, finding the "right" program has been a challenge.  I know he NEEDS a solid base of pre-algrebra and algebra to be successful going forward and this type of thread is so educational for someone like me that has zero knowledge of what will be needed for ACT/SAT, etc. 

 

I think I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea of really slowing him down in math. 

[Library Momma]

In my kids' Middle School 

 

Before Common Core:

 

6th  - 3 tracks; advanced math, intermediate math and then a basic level math.

7th  - Pre-Algebra, intermediate 7th grade math and a basic 7th grade math

8th - Algebra, Pre-Algebra, 8th grade math

 

 

 

After Common Core:

 

Exactly the same but with Common Core versions of the same curriculum.

 

[school17777]

wow...this is all very interesting! For MONTHS, I have been struggling with where to place my ds in math. I pulled him from ps because he was 2 years ahead in math, so in 5th grade, he would have a tutor one day/week from the middle school come over to teach him.

 

His old class of math friends is doing "6th grade GT" math this year and moving to Algebra 1 next year (7th grade). Since my ds will be going into 6th and starting Algebra 1, finding the "right" program has been a challenge. I know he NEEDS a solid base of pre-algrebra and algebra to be successful going forward and this type of thread is so educational for someone like me that has zero knowledge of what will be needed for ACT/SAT, etc.

 

I think I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea of really slowing him down in math.

I struggled with whether to advanced my mathy ds, but ultimately decided not to and we are happy with that decision.

 

Here is an older essay to ponder on the subject: http://www.thedailyriff.com/articles/can-america-figure-out-math-43.php

[jniter]

Since when was doing AP Calc before college the only way to be "college track"?

Most colleges and universities require a math placement test before classes begin, even if you pass the AP Exam (possible to be placed into an even higher class of math). Calculus as a Freshman in college is nothing to be ashamed of!

 

There was a girl taking differential equations in 10th grade and FAILING at one school at which I was a teacher, but all the parents cared about was saying their daughter was in differential equations. The teachers and school were BEGGING the parents to let the girl retake classes and the parents refused.

 

This entire discussion only convinces me that you have to *pay attention to your child* and *not worry* about what everyone else is doing or whether your child will be "competitive". If your child has a stellar academic record and the *only* "black mark" is that they "only" advanced to Pre-Calc in HS, I'd really like to know if anyone has evidence that this child was unable to attend a solid college or university. Fine, maybe they won't go to MIT, but there are plenty of folks who do *not* go to MIT and do *just fine*.

 

If you're *that* concerned about math acceleration, send your kid to a community college to take math classes over the summer. My husband went to the local university when he was in HS and finished diff eqs, linear algebra, and multivariate calculus during summers and senior year before graduating HS. And he *only* went to UMich, but he's doing *just fine*.

 

Relax, folks.

 

Edit: grammar

[vonfirmath]

This.  In all three states where I've lived (2 pre-CC and Texas doesn't do CC), A1 could be taken in 8th, but did not have to be.  At least half the students, probably more, choose not to/are not reading in 8th and take it in 9th.  A very small number take it in 7th.

 

I do not think I had the option (in the late 1980s, in Texas) to take 7th grade Algebra. If someone had tested into it, then I don't know what they would have done in 8th grade. Algebra 1 was the highest class offered at the school and there was no HS or college close by to attend for math and then come back to school afterward.

 

I do remember being utterly bored in math class 6th and 7th grade before I got to start learning new things in 8th! (Though, in retrospect, those may have been the years I learned cool things like working in base 6 and base 16.)

[raptor_dad]

I don't have a strong opinion on PS Algebra in 7th...

 

Algebra 1 in the Common Core age is not your mother's Algebra 1.  The first 25% of the traditional Algebra 1 is covered in so-called CC 8th Grade Math. In this paradigm I believe only a very small percentage should take CC Algebra 1 in 7th grade. The regular advanced students should take the CC accelerated path with CC Algebra 1 in 8th Grade.  

 

Maybe your mom is younger... my mom took algebra in 9th at her blue collar HS in the mid-60's using Dolciani and topped out with the Dolciani/Beckenbach Math Analysis book. This was way more rigourous than any Common Core series I've seen. Singapore NEM is integrated and also harder than any CC books I've seen.

 

I agree too many kids are racing through weak PS math courses. However, the CC books don't really address this. Waiting around to endlessly reinforce concepts at a superficial level doesn't really add any rigour. I would not be at all surprised if older generations of kids who used Dolciani/Beckenbach or Allendoerfer/Oakley or Singapore NEM pre-calc books are more mathematically mature than kids completing Calc AB or BC today. I don't see any reason to believe a single track CC topping out at pre-calc  is going to do better and plenty of reasons why it may be worse.

 

 

[MinivanMom]

Since when was doing AP Calc before college the only way to be "college track"?

Most colleges and universities require a math placement test before classes begin, even if you pass the AP Exam (possible to be placed into an even higher class of math). Calculus as a Freshman in college is nothing to be ashamed of!

*snip*

 

Unfortunately, this is the reality in many public school systems where all kids are required to take Algebra in 8th grade. The only kids left to take Algebra in 9th are those few remedial students, so the day-to-day reality for a student entering that school in 9th without Algebra is that they will be relegated to that lowest track with the remedial students and may not have a way to get off of it. I don't think that's how it should be, but there it is. As I said up thread, our (highly-ranked, well-regarded) local public high school does not even offer Algebra I. If any of my children were to enter the public high school without having already done Algebra I at home, then they would be enrolled in Algebra 1a, the first in a two course series where Algebra is taught at half the normal pace. There is no other Algebra I class they could take.

 

The opposite, as we are discussing here in regards to SFUSD, is just as bad. Requiring all students to wait until 9th grade to take Algebra hurts the students who were ready to take Algebra in middle school and who aspire to STEM careers. Although there is no reason to be ashamed of taking Calculus as a freshman in college, the reality is that colleges expect to see it on the transcript for applicants applying to STEM majors. It is also common for students who took Calculus in high school to start over in Calc I in college, either because they didn't score a 5 on the AP exam, because the college doesn't grant credit for AP, or because they need Calc on their college transcript for med school/grad school applications later on. If a student is accepted as a STEM major without AP Calculus, they will be taking Calculus I with students who have already mastered Calculus and may find themselves weeded out. That is a harsh punishment for STEM students in SFUSD.

 

The obvious solution is to allow those who are ready to take Algebra in 8th (or 7th) to do so, but to allow the remaining students to take Algebra in 9th. Everyone's needs can be met. Everyone benefits.

[RootAnn]

The issue is when Algebra in 7th or 8th grade becomes standard, then Algebra I in 9th begins to be considered remedial regardless of whether the course is labeled remedial.

 

As someone who will probably have a child take Algebra in 9th grade (or later) due to readiness issues, I selfishly don't mind the CC shift in PS to Algebra-later vs. Algebra-earlier. It will help her transcript seem not as 'remedial' as it would look if she were graduating this year. By the time she gets done with high school, the shift will probably be back to Algebra-earlier, but her cohort nationally will be all over the board. For us, I want her rock-solid on arithmetic & fundamentals and then rock-solid on algebra before she moves on. I feel equally sorry for those who used to be pushed to do algebra earlier than they were ready as I do for those who won't be able to do algebra when they ARE ready.

 

Maybe your mom is younger... my mom took algebra in 9th at her blue collar HS in the mid-60's using Dolciani and topped out with the Dolciani/Beckenbach Math Analysis book.

 

:lol: My mom is much older than yours. Mine took algebra in 9th (before 1950) but never understood it because, as she relates it, they were told to go look up all their answers in "the pony" (  :confused1: ) vs. understand what they were doing. My aunt had a different algebra teacher & always said she loved it. No idea what book either one used because they didn't remember. I know they took geometry, but I think that was the extent of their math (other than the accounting they did once they went to work).

[8filltheheart]

Since when was doing AP Calc before college the only way to be "college track"?

Most colleges and universities require a math placement test before classes begin, even if you pass the AP Exam (possible to be placed into an even higher class of math). Calculus as a Freshman in college is nothing to be ashamed of!

 

There was a girl taking differential equations in 10th grade and FAILING at one school at which I was a teacher, but all the parents cared about was saying their daughter was in differential equations. The teachers and school were BEGGING the parents to let the girl retake classes and the parents refused.

 

This entire discussion only convinces me that you have to *pay attention to your child* and *not worry* about what everyone else is doing or whether your child will be "competitive". If your child has a stellar academic record and the *only* "black mark" is that they "only" advanced to Pre-Calc in HS, I'd really like to know if anyone has evidence that this child was unable to attend a solid college or university. Fine, maybe they won't go to MIT, but there are plenty of folks who do *not* go to MIT and do *just fine*.

 

If you're *that* concerned about math acceleration, send your kid to a community college to take math classes over the summer. My husband went to the local university when he was in HS and finished diff eqs, linear algebra, and multivariate calculus during summers and senior year before graduating HS. And he *only* went to UMich, but he's doing *just fine*.

 

Relax, folks.

 

Edit: grammar

 

The issue is the mentality that education is a one size fits all approach based on birthday.  There are kids who are more than ready for higher levels of math at a younger age.  Restricting them from working at their actual level of ability b/c most kids cannot or b/c of pure bureaucracy is definitely not meeting the educational needs of the student.  Why should a student having to sit twiddling their thumbs in a math class clearly below their level and then having to spend their summer vacations taking an appropriate class be considered desirable option?

[regentrude]

 

If you're *that* concerned about math acceleration, send your kid to a community college to take math classes over the summer.

 

An this prevailing attitude is exactly the reason I homeschool.

One size does not fit all. Not all should have to march to the beat of the slowest drummer.

Kids should be allowed to learn according to their abilities and at their pace - and not be forced to sit bored in a classroom for years because common wisdom has it that students in this country have less developed brains than students elsewhere.

 

Public education should educate every child during the school year. Not say "it's OK if you don't learn anything, you can always take classes  over the summer".

 

It is NOT about looking competetive for college - it is about giving kids a chance to develop their brains by learning to think.

 

ETA: The day after I had withdrawn DD from school, her words were: "I am glad I don't have to go to school anymore. Now I can finally learn something."

[tmstranger]

I struggled with whether to advanced my mathy ds, but ultimately decided not to and we are happy with that decision.

 

Here is an older essay to ponder on the subject: http://www.thedailyriff.com/articles/can-america-figure-out-math-43.php

 

Good article!  Definitely gives me a lot to think about! 

[Lawyer&Mom]

Unfortunately, this is the reality in many public school systems where all kids are required to take Algebra in 8th grade. The only kids left to take Algebra in 9th are those few remedial students, so the day-to-day reality for a student entering that school in 9th without Algebra is that they will be relegated to that lowest track with the remedial students and may not have a way to get off of it. I don't think that's how it should be, but there it is. As I said up thread, our (highly-ranked, well-regarded) local public high school does not even offer Algebra I. If any of my children were to enter the public high school without having already done Algebra I at home, then they would be enrolled in Algebra 1a, the first in a two course series where Algebra is taught at half the normal pace. There is no other Algebra I class they could take.

 

The opposite, as we are discussing here in regards to SFUSD, is just as bad. Requiring all students to wait until 9th grade to take Algebra hurts the students who were ready to take Algebra in middle school and who aspire to STEM careers. Although there is no reason to be ashamed of taking Calculus as a freshman in college, the reality is that colleges expect to see it on the transcript for applicants applying to STEM majors. It is also common for students who took Calculus in high school to start over in Calc I in college, either because they didn't score a 5 on the AP exam, because the college doesn't grant credit for AP, or because they need Calc on their college transcript for med school/grad school applications later on. If a student is accepted as a STEM major without AP Calculus, they will be taking Calculus I with students who have already mastered Calculus and may find themselves weeded out. That is a harsh punishment for STEM students in SFUSD.

 

The obvious solution is to allow those who are ready to take Algebra in 8th (or 7th) to do so, but to allow the remaining students to take Algebra in 9th. Everyone's needs can be met. Everyone benefits.

This was my experience. On the first day of Math 1A at UC Berkeley the professor asked kids with a five in AP Calc to raise their hands. Way more than half the room did. And I was there with only pre-Calc under my belt. Let's just say I was mulched.

 

I would absolutely want my kids to take Calc in high school and then again in college.

[Arcadia]

I would absolutely want my kids to take Calc in high school and then again in college.

I would also like any child who is able to have the chance to take calculus based physics in high school for exposure/familiarity. Having Calulus and calculus based physics in high school was beneficial as a foundation for my engineering undergrad courses.

I am pretty sure my district plan the math track based on their science track. Algebra 1 in 7th for those able is useful for physical science in 8th. Calculus in 11th is useful for AP Physics C in 12th.

[jniter]

The opposite, as we are discussing here in regards to SFUSD, is just as bad. Requiring all students to wait until 9th grade to take Algebra hurts the students who were ready to take Algebra in middle school and who aspire to STEM careers. Although there is no reason to be ashamed of taking Calculus as a freshman in college, the reality is that colleges expect to see it on the transcript for applicants applying to STEM majors. It is also common for students who took Calculus in high school to start over in Calc I in college, either because they didn't score a 5 on the AP exam, because the college doesn't grant credit for AP, or because they need Calc on their college transcript for med school/grad school applications later on. If a student is accepted as a STEM major without AP Calculus, they will be taking Calculus I with students who have already mastered Calculus and may find themselves weeded out. That is a harsh punishment for STEM students in SFUSD.

 

I'd like to see evidence of a student w/only Pre-Calc taking Calc 1 in college and being "weeded out" because they were in a class w/students who already mastered the material.

 

Calc 1 is Calc 1. I've never heard of my FIL saying he was going to make his Calc 1 class harder just because he found out the students already took Calc 1. A class is a class and the material is the material. The only possible way the Pre-Calc student would be "weeded out" is if the scores for the tests were curved and the kids who had "mastered" the material in HS all aced the tests and the kids who were seeing the material for the first time were scoring in the 40s or 50s. I had a few math classes at Northwestern w/curved grades, but most did not. I assume each professor/department/university might be a little different.

 

There are universities and colleges of all flavors. I taught in Silicon Valley, so I understand the pressure there. Kids are in tears if they don't get into UC Berkeley, UCLA, etc. There *are* other schools that are maybe Tier 2 or 3 that will accept a kid into a STEM major with "only" Pre-Calc. My cousin didn't graduate *that* long ago (4 years?).

 

Honestly, I don't even know why AP Calc AB was ever offered. It should be BC or nothing. One semester of college Calc spread over an entire HS year (well...until the AP exam in May) is *not* a "college experience" and does the students a disservice. They are not truly experiencing how compact the material is supposed to be at a college level. And there are plenty of Top Tier schools that don't bother accepting AP Chem or Phys test scores and make students take a placement test because they know the course the student had in HS is *not* the same as their college course.

 

I appreciate the desire for a fully differentiated experience in a PS so all kids can work at exactly where they ought to be, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if part of SFUSD's decision was partly informed and influenced by feedback from the UC/CSU school systems. That was a topic we often discussed at NCTM regional conferences and in our math dept. The universities are tired of giving remedial classes and discovering that a kids' transcript is useless. It's a waste of tax payer $!

 

I am so thankful I'm not operating in that space anymore. There is never a perfect solution.

[jniter]

This was my experience. On the first day of Math 1A at UC Berkeley the professor asked kids with a five in AP Calc to raise their hands. Way more than half the room did. And I was there with only pre-Calc under my belt. Let's just say I was mulched.

 

I would absolutely want my kids to take Calc in high school and then again in college.

 

But why mulched? Why would the prof bother to change the lecture, the book, the test questions, etc. just because half the room said they got a 5 on their AP exam?

 

[jniter]

The issue is the mentality that education is a one size fits all approach based on birthday.  There are kids who are more than ready for higher levels of math at a younger age.  Restricting them from working at their actual level of ability b/c most kids cannot or b/c of pure bureaucracy is definitely not meeting the educational needs of the student.  Why should a student having to sit twiddling their thumbs in a math class clearly below their level and then having to spend their summer vacations taking an appropriate class be considered desirable option?

 

There are 53,000 students in SFUSD.

 

LAUSD has almost 700,000.

 

What are we supposed to think of the kids who go to small schools that don't even have AP classes?

 

No policy is going to perfect, whether aiming for full differentiation or one size fits all. I think no matter what a district decides to do, it's lose-lose. Someone isn't happy.

[8filltheheart]

I'd like to see evidence of a student w/only Pre-Calc taking Calc 1 in college and being "weeded out" because they were in a class w/students who already mastered the material.

 

Calc 1 is Calc 1. I've never heard of my FIL saying he was going to make his Calc 1 class harder just because he found out the students already took Calc 1. A class is a class and the material is the material. The only possible way the Pre-Calc student would be "weeded out" is if the scores for the tests were curved and the kids who had "mastered" the material in HS all aced the tests and the kids who were seeing the material for the first time were scoring in the 40s or 50s. I had a few math classes at Northwestern w/curved grades, but most did not. I assume each professor/department/university might be a little different.

 

There are universities and colleges of all flavors. I taught in Silicon Valley, so I understand the pressure there. Kids are in tears if they don't get into UC Berkeley, UCLA, etc. There *are* other schools that are maybe Tier 2 or 3 that will accept a kid into a STEM major with "only" Pre-Calc. My cousin didn't graduate *that* long ago (4 years?).

 

Honestly, I don't even know why AP Calc AB was ever offered. It should be BC or nothing. One semester of college Calc spread over an entire HS year (well...until the AP exam in May) is *not* a "college experience" and does the students a disservice. They are not truly experiencing how compact the material is supposed to be at a college level. And there are plenty of Top Tier schools that don't bother accepting AP Chem or Phys test scores and make students take a placement test because they know the course the student had in HS is *not* the same as their college course.

 

I appreciate the desire for a fully differentiated experience in a PS so all kids can work at exactly where they ought to be, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if part of SFUSD's decision was partly informed and influenced by feedback from the UC/CSU school systems. That was a topic we often discussed at NCTM regional conferences and in our math dept. The universities are tired of giving remedial classes and discovering that a kids' transcript is useless. It's a waste of tax payer $!

 

I am so thankful I'm not operating in that space anymore. There is never a perfect solution.

 

 Since you stated you are familiar with AoPS, do you believe students sitting in the avg American public school classroom could simply swap classrooms with an AoPS student and be able to jump in full speed ahead?  Conversely, how do you believe that most AoPS students would perform in the other student's place? 

[raptor_dad]

 

 

If parents are *that* concerned about having the kids take Calc before they finish HS, there are PLENTY of math enrichment programs in the Bay Area that cram an entire year of math into 8 or 10 weeks over the summer.

 

Are these courses free? I think this whole thread is pitching high academic standards as some sort of rich white parent obsession... 

 

My senior Calc class had 2 former Vietnamese boat people who spent through grade 4 in the camps in the Phillipines, the Tranh "twins"... Chi was maybe 17, MiMi was at least 19 but noone really knew since they also ended up in the camps coming out Cambodia in the late 70s, a couple of poor black kids, an ethnic Indian from Kenya in the US on a compassionate care visa for his younger sister, and ~5 lower middle class white kids. My best friend in highschool was no longer there since she managed to get in to our state's residential math science magnet and one of my HS teachers managed to assume temporary guardianship after her mom got sent to federal prison in TX. Which of these kids should have been denied that opportunity based on parent interest or resources?

 

[snowbeltmom]

 

 

Honestly, I don't even know why AP Calc AB was ever offered. It should be BC or nothing. One semester of college Calc spread over an entire HS year (well...until the AP exam in May) is *not* a "college experience" and does the students a disservice. They are not truly experiencing how compact the material is supposed to be at a college level..

High school is not college. College students typically take 4 classes at a time, while high school students take up to 8 classes at a time.  Since a high school student can have twice as many classes as a typical college student, doesn't it make sense that the high school classes would move slower than the college classes since the high school students have half the time to devote to a subject when compared to a college student?

 

I don't understand how offering only AP Calc AB does a high school student a disservice. 

[Wildiris]

I thought taking AP Calc, or anything AP, just demonstrated an ability to do more advanced work, but to expect a college to accept this for full college credit is silly. As for 8th grade algebra--some kids are ready but more kids are not ready to tackle algebra in 8th grade.  The one-size-fits-all solution will not serve those advance kids. What happened to gifted programs? 

 

I read this article linked above, and I encourage you to read it too. It seems not much has changed since 2011. Why America produces so few engineering students has a lot to do with how high school math is sequenced, but it also has a lot to do with content and developing the background for higher level math.

 

"A colleague in the engineering department who also works summer orientation complained to me that many students who wanted to major in engineering could not place into calculus. The engineering program is structured so that no calculus means no physics freshman year and no physics means no engineering courses until it's too late to complete the program in four years. For all practical purposes readiness for calculus as an entering freshman determines choice of major and career. The math placement test given to incoming freshmen at orientation has much higher stakes than any test given in high school. But, the placement test has no course grade or teacher evaluation associated with it. No one but the student has any responsibility for or stake in its outcome." (The Daily Riff Nov. 1, 2011)

[8filltheheart]

There are 53,000 students in SFUSD.

 

LAUSD has almost 700,000.

 

What are we supposed to think of the kids who go to small schools that don't even have AP classes?

 

No policy is going to perfect, whether aiming for full differentiation or one size fits all. I think no matter what a district decides to do, it's lose-lose. Someone isn't happy.

 

Perfect?   Out of that number of kids, none are gifted and talented enough to be accelerated?  Do you think gov't schools should provide services for disabled students?  If so, is it only the kids who are on the low side and the middle of the bell curve that have the right to an appropriate education?  I guess the smart kids don't have the same rights all other students.

 

Of course, if people started advocating that disabled students lose their services, there would be a ***justified*** outcry.  Gifted and talented students really do deserve the same consideration.