Intelligent adult unable to see patterns or learn from examples

[KeepItGoing]

A friend, age 40, is in college. He's having real difficulty with his classes and I'm trying to help him figure out what's going on. (I hope this isn't inappropriate to post here.)

 

In some ways he's the most brilliant person I've ever met. For example, he can see the implications of a new concept extremely quickly. He can—and does—rearrange his whole understanding of the world almost instantly.

 

He thinks in abstractions. Last year I helped him study grammar. Giving him examples taught him nothing, but frustrated him completely. He wanted definitions of the concepts, which he would study—and if the definition was correct, then he could generally apply the definition to examples just fine. I spent hours trying to figure out how to properly define a "participle" and a "phrase" and a "participial phrase." (Have you ever thought about how to officially define a phrase? It made my head hurt.) A definition that would make everything crystal clear for him, would be confusing to anyone else. For example: "A participle is a verb form which merely assumes the act, being, or state." For most of the people I teach, these sentences would only make sense if I first gave ten examples. For him, the examples didn't make sense until he'd learned the abstraction.

 

The best example that I was seeing a serious problem, though, came when he was studying verb forms. He railed about the fact that the book called the forms -s, -ed,  and -ing forms. And he went through the list of verbs: has, had, had, having. Plays, played, playing, and so forth. 45 minutes into this exercise, he suddenly said, "OH! The -s forms end in s! And the -ing forms end in ing!" It had never have occurred to me that this needed to be pointed out.

 

It's not surprising to me that he's having difficulty in school, since schools are simply not set up to give abstractions in this way. (He loves textbooks that are pre-1920 or so, since they use more abstractions.)

 

I think this is related although I can't quite say how: He has trouble figuring out what to include and what to leave out when he researches or writes. He ends each semester with several incompletes, because he tries to write dissertation-quality papers in his sophomore-level courses. His professors are quite understanding with him, but he's beginning to realize that there is a problem, if the less knowledgeable person beside him writes a two-page final and gets a higher grade on a test than he does with his ten-page final.

 

If you ask him a question, you must be prepared to listen to a very carefully worded treatise. He has the mind of a lawyer—he must make statements that are completely true and watertight. But this isn't a mere preference, because when others make non-watertight (but totally normal) sentences, he often misunderstands them. He simply doesn't know how to select the appropriate details to illustrate his broader points, or how to fill in the gaps of what someone meant to say.

 

But boy, does he understand the broader points! I've never met anyone with such a grasp of the broader points of history, philosophy, sociology—even before he started college. (He never finished high school).

 

 

His current question is how to begin to develop this skill, without even having an idea of what the skill is. He realizes that other people are able to make value judgements of how useful a particular idea is, and he can't. He also sees that other people can (for example) look at two different (but unfamiliar) writing systems and see that they're different—but he can't.

 

He's asked me to try to figure out when that make-a-set skill (the distinguishing diferent writing systems skill) first develops in humans, as a first step for him to try to figure out what he's missing. I haven't been able to figure that one out, though I figure it's a form of pattern recognition.

 

But does anyone have any insight for me? Any advice on what's going on, or how he could begin to develop these skills? He'd be willing to do almost anything to improve, I think.

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't have any useful suggestions but I wanted to send kuddos to you for trying to help and kuddos to him for tackling college at 40.

 

Has he ever had an evaluation through a neuropsychologist? That might net some solid answers, possibly accomodations at school, and hopefully some ideas on how to actually help him with his waek areas while also more effectively tapping into his strengths.

[Heathermomster]

Your friend needs to be evaluated by a neuropsychologist (np). The np can perform various tests like IQ to identify specific strengths and weaknesses. With that information, you can select better remediation materials that would suit him and explain the issues that he lives with. He sounds frustrating to himself and others.

[JDoe]

Pattern recognition is how concepts are formed in the human mind, and as such it is unavoidable for anyone to have the capability.

 

In a way it seems that he has a much sharper mind than the average, and that this is the problem. Most people are entirely happy about not having a clue as to what the difference between a cat and a dog is (yes, you can tell them apart, but can you tell me exactly what is the essential difference is so that we can have a definition of each which will be valid for all cats and all dogs?). In effect, everyone is sloppy and he is not.

 

Would I try to teach him sloppiness? No!!!

 

I would though try to teach outlining before writing and how to eliminate the fine detail (lower level points) in order to cut down responses to expected size.

 

Best book on outlining, pre-1920, https://archive.org/details/principlesoutli00ballgoog

 

You might also want to get this one: http://www.amazon.com/The-Minto-Pyramid-Principle-Thinking/dp/0960191038

 

 

I suspect he might score off the charts on IQ testing, but that is just a hunch. 

[geodob]

While you wrote that he is 'unable to see patterns'.

If you presented him with some actual visual patterns, he quite can't recognize the patterns.

He quite likely also has a difficulty with concieving of 'sequences' as well?

 

Though the underlying issue, is a difficulty with 'reversible thinking'.

Where pattern and sequential thinking, uses reverse thinking.

To identify what comes next in a pattern, we need to look back.

A sequence is recognized in reflection.

 

With writing a paper, we also need to plan it in reverse?

So that we start with the conclusion, and then look back and analyse the process needed to get there?

What is required, and the order that it needs to be carried out?

Which can be precisely defined.

As opposed to a linear forward thinking process, that just wanders around with no set path?

[kbutton]

This screams gifted and spectrum-ish to me. Whether he would qualify for the whole enchilada, materials designed for Aspies might help him figure out some of the traits and find ways to cope/workaround this stuff. 

 

Different Minds by Dierdre Lovecky might be a good resource for you to help him or for him to help himself, though it's written about kids. He might need to buddy-read it so that you or someone else can make some explicit connections for him. For example, you might have to say, "This book is written with students in mind, and they are younger students. However, I think we can apply princicples from this book to your situation since it's about school stuff and about how these kids think. We should look for ways this fits, not ways it doesn't fit--if you get stuck on how it doesn't fit, then let's list those concerns and come back to them after we get through x first." This book was written before the new DSM, which doesn't have an extra category for Asperger's, so that might even be a place he gets hung up on things. You can say that whether or not it's still technically correct, you think you can learn something from the learning profiles the author discusses. This book suggests that gifted people with Asperger's need to see the big picture first, and then they need to have someone go backwards and spackle in the fine details. They need to move back and forth between the whole picture and the parts, sometimes several times through, whereas more typical people might have a strong preference for one approach or the other or have a preference about which approach is used for various kinds of tasks.

 

My sense is that he gets the big picture, but he wants things so watertight because he cannot compare that big picture to the details in a wholistic way. So, he has to apply that concept to every single detail, find all the exceptions, and then rearrange his abstract, overarching view, or have someone infer the connections and teach them to him. It's sort of like an intellectual version of trial and error, but he's getting hung up on the errors until he can place them into the right framework.

 

The good news is that if I am right, my son is this way, and letting him rail a bit about stuff, ask a million questions, show him how his intuition is correct while pointing out the pebble that stopped the cogs in his brain is tremendously effective. And the more practice with this, the better it gets, the faster it gets. After doing this, my son starts to see several layers of big pictures within the big picture, and then he can lop off the irrelevant details and such. Writing has been our nemesis, but he's only 11. However, it's helped in many other areas.

 

With the verbs, there is a name for each verb form, called the principal parts of the verb. There are regular and irregular verbs. If someone is categorizing them by their endings, the irregular ones are going to mess him up. You simply state that the principal parts of REGULAR verbs are formed this way, and that irregular verbs are called this because they form differently. Those verbs have to be memorized. It's annoying, but we have a label for that exception, and that label is IRREGULAR VERB. So, he has a mini-big picture inside the larger big picture. Every time he learns something new with verbs, he will need to figure out if that new information is part of this hierarchy or not, if it changes something in that hierarchy, etc. Making reference charts and flow charts can help with this. but that does take a lot of patience. 

 

My son got hung up on the "new" way of learning to tell time. When I went to school, they taught us how to tell time over several days, and we learned to tell time to the minute. This changed by the time my son was in school (he wasn't homeschooled until 3rd grade). In K, they taught whole hours. Later they added half hours, then they added quarter hours, etc., and didn't plan to get to individual minutes until third grade. Every time they did this, they added layers without tying it into the old stuff. My son thought he had to change how he was telling time, every single time they did this, and he was totally confused. He could not add that new information to the old without an explicit connection. It was much easier to sit him down and re-teach him how to tell time to the minute from start to finish. Explicit connections fixed the problem. 

[PeterPan]

http://www4.esc13.net/uploads/speech/docs/11_12/april/Executive_Functioning_and_Language.pdf

 

The relationship of theory of mind and executive functions to symptom type and severity in children with autism

 

I don't want to get in the weeds here, because frankly I don't know what I'm talking about.  I'll just tell you that what I *think* you're seeing is severe EF (executive function) issues.  I spent the morning researching it.  If you read that first link, which is a pdf summary, EF divides into what we always talk about (regulation) and metacognition.  Metacognition then breaks down into metalinguistics, metaperceptual, etc. etc.  

 

In other words, his not noticing the parts of words is a metalinguistics issue and it's part of the metacognition aspect of his severe EF issues.  His difficulty with writing organization is the other branch of EF.  In other words, he has severe EF issues.

 

Now, to go further in the weeds, I found research indicating that in fact the *therapy* or intervention for metacognition issues is NOT in fact direct instruction, the way you would think.  You can, yes.  But I found research indicating that in fact an overarching approach to EF (look at that 2nd link, very in the weeds) was MORE effective.  The issue is that things don't work in isolation.  So he needs his working memory and inhibition and cognition and inferences and... all to work at ONCE to do these higher level tasks.  So while in general we work with kids on very simple, isolated EF tasks, what you're looking for are sophisticated EF tasks that pull together multiple things at once.  For instance, I've said that with my dd I did metronome work AND working memory AND motor planning, all integrated into one activity.

 

I have no clue what I'm talking about.  Or, as my prof in college said, I speak as a fool.   ;)  I've just be researching metalinguistics to try to figure out how to help my ds.  Odds are the gentleman you're working with is quite gifted.  He's also VSL.  So the real curiosity is whether he's only ADHD or also ASD.  You probably shouldn't say that, unless he happens to be very blunt.  If he happens to be very blunt, you already know the answer.   ;)

 

So yes, he needs a referral for a psych eval for EF, ADHD, and possibly ASD.  With an adult sometimes they diagnose those things very informally.  The question is how much meds will help and where he might want to consider cognitive therapies.  It's essential that he have a clear answer on the ASD question (so he doesn't get given the wrong meds), possibly also getting a speech eval for the language issues.  Our neuropsych ran the CELF5, which is how we tracked down the metalinguistics issues on ds and came to realize they're caused by EF.  It's just we always think of EF in terms of self-regulation, and it has this whole other aspect that goes awry in some kids, the metacognition.  So whether it's for faces and body language (metaperceptual), parts of words (metalinguistics), or what, it's all metacognition, all EF.  And for that you refer.

 

What are his goals with the tutoring?  What is he trying to accomplish?

 

 

[PeterPan]

Btw, the most simplistic answer for your part is to be very explicit in your teaching.  He may have a naming issue, where names don't MEAN much.  I know in Barton she uses these odd names like "Milk Truck Rule" and I sit there thinking WHY IN THE WORLD ARE WE TALKING ABOUT MILK TRUCKS???  No visual picture of a milk truck with what she ACTUALLY means.  Nope, she just throws out these words and figures you INFER IT.  Issues with inference, figurative language, etc. get tested in a pragmatics test, and it's usually an SLP that does that.  I'm not sure if a neuropsych will have that to run or not.  Ask the prospective psych I guess.  Clinical psychs will often diagnose adults informally.  His problem is he needs ANSWERS in order to individualize his instruction, remediate weaknesses, and achieve his goals.  That's going to require more in-depth testing.  A pragmatics test (the one my ds just had, the one kbutton's ds has had) takes an hour to administer and multiple hours to score.  That would be a very involved eval.  Is he working with a vocational program, on medicaid, or connected to anything else to give him services?  I'm just saying, all told, he's going to have a pretty penny in evals to get these things answered.  If he's as intelligent as it SOUNDS like he is, it would make a huge difference in his ability to work with himself.

 

You also might ask him to ask his parents if he ever had evals and try to locate those records...  That would give you something to work with for free.

[kbutton]

In other words, his not noticing the parts of words is a metalinguistics issue and it's part of the metacognition aspect of his severe EF issues.  His difficulty with writing organization is the other branch of EF.  In other words, he has severe EF issues. So, he has trouble thinking about why he's stuck, and of course, he's stuck because people aren't being precise enough with the definitions. "I mean, come on, these verbs don't end in -ing, -ed, etc. Their definition sucks." Because that's much easier than realizing, "Hey, there must be a hierarchy I'm missing here, and maybe I won't like that hierarchy because it's not how I would do things, but I can use it if someone can help me discover it and map it."

 

Now, to go further in the weeds, I found research indicating that in fact the *therapy* or intervention for metacognition issues is NOT in fact direct instruction, the way you would think.  You can, yes.  But I found research indicating that in fact an overarching approach to EF (look at that 2nd link, very in the weeds) was MORE effective. When I say explicit, I mean making some connections, giving him a hierarchy, and then teaching him to do that himself. It's kind of like teaching someone how to do a complicated word problem...here's what we know, he's what we don't know, here is what is confusing, etc. Then you shove those pieces of information into a hierarchy and test your hierarchy. The problem is that even if the hierarchy happens to be complete (***edit--meant to say correct), it can have "exceptions," especially with regard to people, language, etc. Putting that stuff into the hierarchy is tricky. He needs the tools (metacognition, EF stuff) to find out if his big picture is wrong or not before just getting all discombobulated or disgusted with the whole thing. Your explicit teaching helps him learn to do this. It's stepping him through the process of building his own information filter (or filters) for various kinds of information. Using someone else's filter won't work, though if you can start with one that is a close fit, that can shrink the process.

 

I didn't read the articles (I've gotta make dinner), and I think our posts crossed in time. I commented to try to tie the ideas together because I think this is the theory behind what I see with my kiddo and am trying to describe. 

[PeterPan]

As a simplistic explanation, I think they're saying the metacognition portion of the EF is why they don't notice the bits, whether it's bits of people's faces, bits in words, bits in gestures, bits in sounds, whatever.  The interesting thing the study found was that working EF (in sophisticated ways) improved recognition of bits.  At least I think that's what the study is saying.  So instead of working on recognizing facial expressions, they worked on EF.  Wild, eh?  

 

But beyond that, I have no clue.  I hadn't read your post when I posted, so nothing I've written is a comment or explication on your stuff, if that makes sense.   :)

 

And oh no, I would never read a long study and take away some vague sense like "work on EF instead of the bits!"  Oh no, I would never do that.   :lol: 

 

[PeterPan]

Kbutton, I'm trying to think about what you've written.  I'm not sure what causes rigidity and whether rigidity is actually an EF issue.  I really don't know.  I took the op to be describing missing the bits, which would be a bit different from rigidity.  Like even when he wasn't being rigid, he would still miss the bits, kwim?  And I *think* cognitive rigidity is strongly connected to anxiety, yes? Ds' 1st psych put it "cognitive rigidity due to anxiety."  So maybe that's another thing the op can notice, whether her client demonstrates symptoms of anxiety...

[kbutton]

Kbutton, I'm trying to think about what you've written.  I'm not sure what causes rigidity and whether rigidity is actually an EF issue.  I really don't know.  I took the op to be describing missing the bits, which would be a bit different from rigidity.  Like even when he wasn't being rigid, he would still miss the bits, kwim?  And I *think* cognitive rigidity is strongly connected to anxiety, yes? Ds' 1st psych put it "cognitive rigidity due to anxiety."  So maybe that's another thing the op can notice, whether her client demonstrates symptoms of anxiety...

 

I think I am saying that he's missing the bits first, and then he's being more cognitively rigid as a result. I hate to use the words cognitively rigid because it sounds more like confused and frustrated, and cognitively rigid sounds more negative than what I mean. Either way, he is gravitating toward frustration (ranting about the verb forms) rather than toward good solutions because he doesn't have the EF/metacognition to recognize that he has a hang-up that might be remedied.

 

I think how well he responds and what EF portions to work on will be largely specific to him and his EF deficits. Both of my kids have EF deficits, but not in the same areas. Totally different breakdowns on the rail line. So, yes, you are working on the EF, but you can't just throw broad, random EF strategies at it, unless you can really pinpoint that the broad stuff, like WM, is really behind it--WM is a huge EF deal, but it's not metacognition. In addition, WM fluctuates wildly. The more anxious you get, the less you have. And then there are types--my kiddo has awesome verbal WM, but not at all for random bits or things like numbers. And some people simply need to take notes to bridge the gap between where their WM is and where it should be. Other kids are way more impaired. It just depends. This guy doesn't strike me as needing more WM alone (though it never hurts!)--he needs charts and a strategy to work through this. The charts, mental maps, whatever put to paper would help with WM, but the bigger deal is that they put his mental map in front of him so that he can see it and think about it. Even if his WM is good, I think he needs a physical representation of his mental map to communicate with the OP (they need to both be able to refer to it and use it as a tool together). The process of looking at those and figuring out the problem would also support WM. 

 

Anyway, I think the idea is that you use the missing bits to trace back to where the EF train is jumping the track because it won't be the same for each person. Then you work on fixing it at the point of breakdown. He sounds like my kiddo, but he could be missing different bits for different reasons, yet have a similar outcome. And, it all hinges on how much potential he has to be self-aware. I see my son and another younger kiddo I know do some of the same things, but I don't think they will ever have the same level of self-awareness based on how my son was functioning at the same age. So, my strategy with the younger kiddo when I work with him is to feed him bits of information to problem solve, but not spend as much time working on helping him see what he's missing. It's more like giving him more spare parts. With my kiddo, I feel like I can give him the spare parts, but then back off and help him see what he's missing so that he can build, locate, find, use, and even anticipate what spare parts he might need. All of that is a process, and the kiddo I see and work outside the house may be able to do some of those things later, but it will take more time, energy, etc. than it does with mine, and it may not ever reach the same level.

 

Make any sense?

[PeterPan]

I think I am saying that he's missing the bits first, and then he's being more cognitively rigid as a result. 

:iagree: 

[geodob]

Though EF, Executive Function, needs to understood as Head Office located above our eyes in our fore-head.

The rest of the brain is made up of a multitude of regions/ Depts.

Yet each region/Dept has separate Workshops within them, that do the real work/processing.

Where these Workshops are located as folds and fissures within different brain regions/depts.

Which are all constantly processing recieved information.

 

Where the complexity of what is going on in our brain at any moment, needs to be respected.

Which is why we need a Head Office/ EF to manage and coordinate it all.

But to cope with the vast array of information that Head Office/ EF is constantly recieving?

It creates Divisions to manage different groups of brain regions.

So that our Frontal Lobe is made up of various Depts.

Which work in automatic coordination with each other.

To constantly form our current perception of our internal and external work.

 

But given this complexity of Depts in Head Office/EF ?

Of course we need a CEO Chief Executive Officer, to manage and coordinate all of them.

Which has 2 basic options to deal and decide on information from Depts/Regions?

One is the 'Inhibitory process', that shuts down and ignores the 'itch' as irrelevant.

The other option, is to locate it in a hierarchy of attention.

 

Yet another most crucial role of Head Office/EF, is consideration of the relevance of what is occurring in one Dept/Region?

To other Depts/Regions?

Where this convergence causes something called: 'thinking'?

Where a network of connections are formed between different Depts/Regions.

 

But between the brain Depts/Regions and Head Office/EF?

We have a 'switch-board'.

With a multitude of constantly incoming calls, from different Depts/Regions?

This requires considerable switchboard management skills.

Where what is termed as an Attention Deficit?

Is actually a difficulty with Attention Management, and the brains switchboard controls.

[PeterPan]

What's curious to me is how some children with ADHD will have minimal issues with metalinguistics and metacognitive (or maybe they're there and we're not recognizing them?) and others will have TREMENDOUS issues.  

 

And then what's curious is that directly correlation between the most serious EF issues and *any* theory of mind issues.  

 

It's crazy who complex this is. 

 

And I think what you (geodob) is saying further underlines what that study was going at, that if you're going to work on EF and want to see changes you have to do multiple EF tasks *together* because IRL they work together, not in isolation.  With poor ds, that isn't a reality though, lol.  He struggles even to do basic tasks like tapping each letter in a 4 letter word and saying the sound.  Even such simple things are hard to reign in and make happen, let alone having sophisticated goals.  I think we're going to be working on things for a while.

 

I remember this lesson in RS A that people would balk over where the kids were supposed to count taps or something.  When it wasn't working for a segment of kids, people just said oh, don't worry about it, kids vary.  But I wonder how many of those kids later turned out to have EF issues?  ;)

[geodob]

OhEliz,

EF/ Executive Function is something that goes on in different regions of the Frontal Cortex.

But one problem that children have, is that their brain only makes connections to their Frontal Cortex. As they get towards 20 years of age.

Where the use of it that they develop by around the age of 6 ?

Is to use it to inhibit impulses.

Which provides a foundation for developing Attention Control.

But the Frontal Cortex/EF, sits back and waits for all of the different brain regions to be developed.

Then in the late teens, connections to the Frontal Cortex begin developing.

With male brain about 2 years behind the female brain.

 

Though children and teens do have access to the central posterior part of the Frontal Cortex.

Where they can use it to learn how to manage multiple points of attention, and order them in hierarchy.

But they can't use it for higher order thinking.

[PeterPan]

Geodob, so to intervene on EF developmentally you should focus on impulsivity first?

[Plink]

Didn't take the time to read all the responses, sorry if I'm being repetitive.

 

I'd research whole-to-parts thinking, and see if that resonates. 

 

For example, when teaching those verbs, I'd have him look at a group of sentences and circle all of the words that end in -ing and then ask him if he could tell me what is similar about each of those words.  Provide prodding questions as necessary.  Let him make the connections himself.  Then give him the concise definition he seems to want, and move on to searching for more -ing words now using your new vocabulary.

[KeepItGoing]

Thank you SO MUCH to everyone! I have read quickly over the replies but some of these obviously need more than a quick read-through to digest. I'll try to do that this afternoon.

 

A few quick notes: I not really seeking advice on what sort of teaching he needs—we've figured that out well enough, for one thing, but in any case I'm not his teacher. I'm just trying to help him stay above water in some of his courses. What we're after is a way to help him develop so that he can make better use of his classes as is. He's more and more aware that other students are learning things that he's missing in these classes.

 

There's no available money, there was no early testing, nothing like that. He did do some amount of testing a year or two ago at his university; I will ask him just what they did.

 

We've discussed the possibility of Asperger's in the past; that's certainly a possibility but I've always wondered about that because I've never met anyone as tuned in to other people's emotions as he is. He often knows how I'm feeling before I do. He developed that skill because of his personal situation, but would a person with Asperger's be capable of doing that on their own, even if it were hugely to their advantage? I don't know.

 

I do think that an evaluation would be helpful here, I think that is correct. I wonder how we could get this done. It occurs to me that a friend of mine is a educational psychologist—she doesn't test adults, but perhaps she could point me in a good direction here.

 

I will read your responses more carefully soon! Thanks again.

[KeepItGoing]

Boy, that didn't take long! I just looked up "executive functioning" and here are the things that strike me as relevant:

 

difficulty keeping track of time

difficulty finishing work on time

difficulty multitasking

 

Those things pretty much define my friend. He probably does have dyslexia, too. Okay, this is good.

[PeterPan]

I wouldn't assume dyslexia.  Can be dyslexia + ASD, or can be NLD (non-verbal learning disorder).  

 

Adding: a bad eval could do more harm than good.  You want someone who's experienced enough with his level of issues to know what they're seeing.  I'd try the Hoagies Gifted list.

[kbutton]

We've discussed the possibility of Asperger's in the past; that's certainly a possibility but I've always wondered about that because I've never met anyone as tuned in to other people's emotions as he is. He often knows how I'm feeling before I do. He developed that skill because of his personal situation, but would a person with Asperger's be capable of doing that on their own, even if it were hugely to their advantage? I don't know.

 

The short answer is quite possibly. The longer version is that emotion and empathy are debated a lot and the words are used many ways, which makes it harder to talk about in a coherent way. Part of it is picking up on someone's state of being and thinking. My son picks up on emotion a lot. A lot of ASD kids do. They often don't know what to do with it, label it all "bad" or "good" without other words (perhaps your friend found words), etc. They also struggle to do something with that knowledge or act on it. One kid-aged example I heard (from an expert) was that a child with ASD might see another kid fall off the swing and really empathize with how the hurt child feels. But, it's more natural to run away or stand by helplessly (overwhelmed but not expressing it, maybe not even showing a single emotion with facial expressions). Is the running away or being paralyzed because they are unempathetic? Some people suggest that one reason for the response is that ASD folks might want to be left alone when they are hurting, so they don't offer help. It may be that they are overwhelmed. It may be all of the above. But yes, I think people with ASD are capable of a range of emotions and in picking those up in others, but it varies a great deal. And it almost never looks like what more neurotypical people do (and sometimes we should be thankful it's not, lol!).

 

There are some good blogs out there written by people on the spectrum. I don't have names right now, but you might search. They are very eye-opening. Also, there is an e-magazine called Zoom or Zoom Autism, maybe? It's new and free. Most articles are written by people with ASD or who have a relative with ASD.

 

I think it's wonderful you are trying to help him develop his full potential and to do well enough in school to reach his goal. He may struggle a lot with EF, but have a great career once he's through this stuff. I know lots of people with EF difficulties who do well in a career but struggle with school. The big thing is to know their limitations for organization and such and find workarounds. It's usually easier to do in the career than to do in academia! 

[KeepItGoing]

Not willing to take (additional) meds. Probably, on the Asperger's. (And yes, very, very blunt—that has diminished recently, but only through serious effort on his part.) No testing was done at his university, which he's sad about because it would have been extensive, but it didn't work out.

 

I had a fascinating discussion with him today. He says he's not interested in the standard psychological/educational approach to this problem—he calls that the slow way. He believes that if he can pinpoint what he's missing well enough, he'll be able to quickly achieve what he needs.

 

His specific question to me was about set recognition and when that develops. I told him that my husband had pointed out the Sesame Street "one of these things is not like the others" game aimed at preschoolers. That got him going quite nicely. ("I never was any good at that," he said.) He started talking about shape sorters and pattern matching and the increased level of abstraction in the find-the-hidden-picture games and such, and then the additional level of abstraction which exists in the real world, where you have to notice patterns when neither half of the pattern is pointed out to you. (For example, it's one thing to know you're looking for a banana in this picture, and another to look at two pictures and look for common elements.) He came up with a tentative time frame for the developmental stage when, he surmised, the thing he's missing probably comes into play (I don't remember whether he said the beginning of middle school or the beginning of high school).

 

So he's going to work with that and see what he can come up with. I have no idea where he takes it from here—but I have seen this before, and it usually leads him someplace good.

 

He's highly self-aware—or, at least, he's highly willing to be self-aware, and truly welcomes the opportunity to see new truths about himself or about anything. That doesn't mean that he is capable of taking in the feedback, of course; it needs to be presented in a way that he can absorb.

 

I'm quite curious to see where all this leads us.

 

So my question to you is: do any of you want updates on this—would it be of interest to you, especially to those of you with similar kids?—or should I just forget this thread, since he's not looking for the educational/psychological approach here?

 

(edited mostly to add an important NOT that I omitted)

[PeterPan]

Of course it will be fascinating to hear how he does with his efforts!  :)

[Citrusheights5]

I am facinated. Pls keep us uodated.. 8 had nothing to add to earlier discussions but Im truly curious to see what he sees in and of himself. Even his thought on where and when he missed a step is so insightful.

[kbutton]

Please keep us posted. He sounds like a really interesting person. I think it's awesome that he's worked so hard to know himself. 

 

You might find backdoor/oblique ways to suggest approaches that would help him educationally that end up appealing to him. Just a thought--no pressure on that. 

[KeepItGoing]

You might find backdoor/oblique ways to suggest approaches that would help him educationally that end up appealing to him.

There's no such thing as obliqueness with him! I can just suggest, and he'll tell me why he thinks it isn't efficient—or he'll tell me why it is, even though he thought it wouldn't be. (Occasionally I do surprise him with something he hasn't thought of.)

 

I long gave up the idea that I could have emotions that he wouldn't detect (the sort of thing that would lead to obliqueness). It was quite unnerving for a while—I am used to thinking that a lot of my emotions need to be concealed, and I assumed that they would offend him. But he keeps coming around, so it must be okay. It finally occurred to me that when he sees everyone that way, my own emotions aren't going to be that much of a surprise to him.

 

He kept asking us about puzzles and such and what age we thought we were when the various sorts appealed to us. We discussed the various types of pattern-finding that are involved in each. I suggested that if he thought they would help, I have a full box of puzzle books of varying difficulties that he could use. But he wasn't interested, saying that was the slow way, though he had little doubt that it would help.

 

But if anyone has any specific recommendations, it wouldn't hurt to hear them! At this point I'm not going to spend a lot of time researching, myself, since he'll probably ignore it anyway. And I have my own family to attend to. :)

 

And yes, he's an interesting person! I could go on and on.

[Heathermomster]

I have basic questions since he's 40 years old such as, is he functional in his day to day living?  Does he cook, clean, pay bills, laundry, and where does he live?  Can he hold down a basic job?  At 40 years of age, is there a job he wants that requires a minimal set of educational certifications to get him employed?  Is that job realistic?  How is he paying for the schooling that he receives?  All the skills in the educational world don't matter if he is not functional in his interactions with the world around him.  Also, can he perform his own online searches for self improvement or is he sensitive?  

 

[geodob]

Patterns aren't just designs on the floor or wallpaper?

But are fundamental to the thinking process of Pattern Thinking.

Which is simply how comprehension and understanding is formed.

Where elements are grouped into Sets, and then the Sets organized into a Pattern.

Forming a pattern of relationships, between different sets of information.

 

Learning isn't simply a linear process, of adding new information?

But rather a process of integrating new information into our prior understanding.

Where I would highlight its 'integration', as opposed to simply 'adding'?

With 'integration', it involves a total restructure, of a pattern of understanding.

Which changes the whole pattern.

Forming a new pattern of relationships.

A new understanding.

For example, if you hear new information about a Subject that you know a lot about?

It may not simply involve adding this new information?

As this Subject that you know a lot about about?

Will be made of various Sets of information.

Where we could think of the Subject as a Pattern, formed by Sets of various Topics.

So that the new information is added to a Topic.

Which can have a ripple effect throughout the entire Pattern of understanding a Subject.

 

Though in regard to the developmental process and puzzles?

Jigsaw puzzles could be helpful?

 

But here's a link to a website that looks into Pattern Thinking:

http://www.patternthinking.com/

[KeepItGoing]

I have basic questions since he's 40 years old such as, is he functional in his day to day living?  Does he cook, clean, pay bills, laundry, and where does he live?  Can he hold down a basic job?  At 40 years of age, is there a job he wants that requires a minimal set of educational certifications to get him employed?  Is that job realistic?  How is he paying for the schooling that he receives?  All the skills in the educational world don't matter if he is not functional in his interactions with the world around him.  Also, can he perform his own online searches for self improvement or is he sensitive?  

 

He's functional, with issues. He's been self-employed for many years, and very successful, but in a field he despises. He currently lives with a friend. He cooks very well (but in an unusual sort of way), he pays bills (his business got much better when he hired someone to help him with this, though).

 

The field he is pursuing requires a master's-level degree, and it's very well suited to his thought processes. I think he'd thrive there—I don't know whether he'd make a lot of money but he could certainly support himself and contribute nicely to society, which is is goal. He just needs to make it through his undergraduate work, plus he's learned that he's missing a new way of looking at the world, and he'd rather develop his capacity. (We've been trying to help him see that for a long time, but it finally sunk in recently.)

 

Yes, he can perform his own searches. In many ways, he's one of the least sensitive people I've ever met. I've certainly never met anyone who's come as far from his origins as he has.

 

He didn't much approve of my going to a place like this for advice. :) Not that he minded my telling his story anonymously here—just that he figures that you'd better go straight to the horse's mouth, and read original studies. (Neuropsychology is one of his many interests—he's way ahead of me.) But I figured that others might be able to enlighten us as we search for the vocabulary to describe the issues, if nothing else.

 

(That's one of his disadvantages in his schooling, actually—he doesn't deal with secondary sources. If he's writing an essay he wants to be back at primary sources, always. This makes for a wonderful amount of learning, and he'll be well set up to write a thesis of some sort, but it doesn't fit in well when he's taking a full course load and has a deadline.)

[KeepItGoing]

But rather a process of integrating new information into our prior understanding.

Where I would highlight its 'integration', as opposed to simply 'adding'?

With 'integration', it involves a total restructure, of a pattern of understanding.

Which changes the whole pattern.

Forming a new pattern of relationships.

A new understanding.

 

Though in regard to the developmental process and puzzles?

Jigsaw puzzles could be helpful?

 

But here's a link to a website that looks into Pattern Thinking:

http://www.patternthinking.com/

Learning isn't simply a linear process, of adding new information?

 

Yes, and this part (the integration) is what he excels at. Once a bit of information is connected in his head to other information, he is amazing at being able to restructure in his head. The problem is—oh, I don't know! This is confusing to me.

 

Yes, jigsaw puzzles could be helpful, although I don't know if he'd see them as "the slow way." I recall the game, too, where you name two things or actions, and state how they're similar. I wonder if that would be helpful.

[kbutton]

It sounds a lot like his coping skills have been hard won, and he'd rather not deviate until he's convinced it's the perfect change to get what he wants. 

 

Well, now he has a cheering squad behind him, even if it's relevant to you rather than to him. :-)

[JDoe]

 

That's one of his disadvantages in his schooling, actually—he doesn't deal with secondary sources.

 

It is not a disadvantage, to the contrary. Only drawback is that many primary sources might be strange languages such as Latin and Greek (depending on his field naturally). 

 

 

Just a thought, you might want to try to throw some abstract nouns at him and see if he can define, explain, or relate to them. 

 

 

(They are very strange creatures, those abstract nouns, whose relation to reality is dubious, or at least twisted)

[PeterPan]

I keep thinking about this man's learning style.  Did Kbutton already mention the Different Minds book?  Well in it I think (and I didn't extract it, but Kbutton did) that she goes into the idea that some people are both detail AND big picture learners.  I mean, look at what I'm doing so obssessively with the OT/SPD issue in another thread.  I can't even think through basic, obvious things on a normal level, because they don't make sense to me.  All the implications that everyone else goes oh yeah, duh, that's sorta obvious, aren't obvious to me.  So I ask these questions and think harder and harder about it, till my head EXPLODES.  And then it all comes back together in this wondrous fractal picture.

 

That's the detailed AND big picture learner.  That's what I think your guy is doing.  He's totally cool.  It's just when you're like that, it makes you feel sorta dumb in process, because it's so contradictory.  

 

Whatever, that's just your total aside.  If she didn't mention it, that's your book.  The print is so small, I can hardly stand it.  Your library might have it if you want to try.  And if he thinks you're going to read psychology research, he better pay you more than he probably is, lol.  I read that stuff and like it, but then my head swims, lol.

[KeepItGoing]

It is not a disadvantage, to the contrary. Only drawback is that many primary sources might be strange languages such as Latin and Greek (depending on his field naturally). 

Ancient Egyptian, too. And Russian. There's no end to the languages he encounters. He's limited to working in translation, because language learning is a weakness for him.

 

It is in fact a disadvantage, though, when you're taking five sophomore-level courses, and you have two weeks to write three papers, and everyone else is using the textbook, lectures, and two or three other sources, and you're busy finding and printing out five-inch-thick stacks of original correspondence between 18th-century diplomats. And he's a very slow, very careful reader. But he's simply not capable of working in a different way.

 

It will be a great advantage at higher levels, of course, but first he has to reach those higher levels, without losing his scholarship. His professors have been extraordinarily understanding of him, but they can only modify things to a certain degree.

 

Yes, he's highly capable of defining abstract nouns—that's what he does.

 

You're right, OhElizabeth, he's not paying me anything. Or my husband, who's tutored him in math (from basic algebra through calculus) and logic.

 

I'll look for that book. He really doesn't expect me to read psychology research—he does that himself! But I might read it anyway.