Am I overanalyzing the books in BookShark?

[EliseMcKenna]

I have been stuck, stuck, stuck for months on whether we'd be better off with Build Your Library or BookShark. I prefer BookShark's detailed guide and approach to history, but their overall book list concerns me. Some of the selections seem way too mature(?) . . . heavy handed(?)  . . . developmentally inappropriate(?) to me. My kids will turn 6 and 8 this summer, but if we go with BKSK, we would probably use their K package, simply because I think the materials look like they would still be interesting for the 8-year old, but not too advanced for the 6-year old. Anyway, as an example, here are the read-alouds for BKSK's K year:

 

The Story of Dr. Dolittle

The Arnold Lobel Book of Mother Goose

The Llama Who Had No Pajama

Richard Scarry's Please and Thank You Book

My Father's Dragon

Dolphin Adventure

The Light at Tern Rock

A Grain of Rice

The Hundred Dresses

Twenty and Ten

The Boxcar Children

James Herriot's Treasury for Children

Dolphin Treasure

Here's a Penny

No Children, No Pets

Little House in the Big Woods

Beezus and Ramona

Winnie the Pooh

 

I've never read "Twenty and Ten," but after reading reviews of it, I have serious doubts about reading it to my kids. My oldest tried to read "The Hundred Dresses" a year or two ago, and she didn't understand it. She could read it just fine, but she didn't understand the concept of girls making fun of another girl because of the way she dressed. So I don't know that my 6-year old will understand it this year either. Those aren't the only two books that worry me, either.

 

I much prefer the book choices in BYL, but as I mentioned, their history (using SOTW) isn't my cup of tea, and I would prefer more detail in the instructor's guide. 

 

Has anyone else experienced these concerns with these particular programs? And should I give one of these a go, or move on and look for a different lit-based program altogether? 

[Butter]

Bookshark is secular Sonlight.  Sonlight has long prided themselves on selecting mature/deep books.  If you think they are too mature for your kids, go with BYL.

[mc26]

I just ordered the Bookshark IG for 5 (Eastern Hemisphere). I went through the book list one by one, read reviews on Amazon, and crossed off the ones I thought were too "mature" or would bore by boy to tears.  Then I went to Thriftbooks.com and got 37 books for $124. (Yay, me!).  

I guess I am trying to say that you should feel free to "tweak" as needed and don't feel obligated to read every book on the list.

[EliseMcKenna]

Wow, Michelle, I was under the impression that BKSK was selling the book packages at a great price, but I never added everything up myself. Maybe that's only if they were all new? I would feel much less apprehensive about using their RWH portion if I didn't have to spend close to $400 for that alone!

[carla1971]

I have been in a similar situation, and pulled the books I deemed age inappropriate, replacing them with others (had exactly the same qualms as you about Twenty and Ten, for example, and decided to skip it). It worked well. So my take is that, aslong as you are only making a few substitutions, you can go with Bookshark. However, if you feel the majority of the books old be inappropriate, I'd go with BYL.

[EliseMcKenna]

Thanks, Carla. Did you ever use BYL? Or, what book lists/curriculum have worked for you? It makes me feel better to hear that other people have had similar concerns to mine.

 

[mc26]

Since this was our first experience with this curriculum, I just ordered the Instructor Guides for History & Science, the timeline book & figures and one or 2 other pieces directly from them.  If you know you are going to use all the components, including math, I think it is a 20% savings for the entire package.

 

 

[EliseMcKenna]

Ah. Okay. Well, I may end up going your route then and trying to find used books because I really think we'd only use the RWH and maybe science from BKSK. I've got other plans for LA and math.

[Farrar]

I think BYL's lists are similarly deep books, just different choices with a different lens on the world. I think 6 yo is old enough to appreciate The Hundred Dresses and have the ideas explained, though that particular book is one that isn't to my personal taste.

 

I feel like those are really your two options for lit based total curricula if you want secular (there's also MBtP, but I have a feeling that's not what you want, and FIAR, but that's also a different sort of approach). If you want it all laid out, I think you'll have to either decide to take BKSK and maybe skip a book or two and just remember that you can always read other books outside of the curricula. Or you'll have to decide that BYL is laid out enough.

[EliseMcKenna]

Yep. That pretty much sums it up, Farrar. I also think an option would be to go with BYL and then just go completely rogue for history. 

 

Ugh. Can someone please decide for me???  :laugh:

[EliseMcKenna]

I should add: I keep wondering whether I'm going to be able to trust BKSK's lit choices without pre-reading every single book. 

 

And, BYL actually has some of the same books in their program, but scheduled later. (Like "A Grain of Rice.")

 

[Farrar]

Since both BKSK and BYL are centered around their history to some extent, I feel like going off book for each would defeat the purpose. Though, in the case of BYL, I haven't seen the guides, so I don't know for sure. It might be that you could do History Odyssey instead of SOTW with BYL and have it work fine.

 

[Sammish]

Just adding my own experience here: we used BookShark grade 2 this year, and next year we're switching over to BYL grade 3. I just really, really didn't like the books used in BookShark. My son is pretty mature for his age (8), but the last book we read (Captain Nobody) revolved around the main character's brother being in a coma, and then later everyone thought one of the characters was going to commit suicide because of bullying. That just seemed like awfully heavy material for a second grader.

 

But even besides that, I found most of the books extremely boring. We prefer books with a little more plot and action- some tension and excitement. That's not something wrong with BookShark necessarily, just personal preference. (Apparently Amazon reviews that refer to something as a "sweet story" should be a warning sign for me. :))

 

[EliseMcKenna]

Sammish, BYL Year 3 looks AWESOME. Any program that includes "Mandy" is a winner in my book! 

 

After poring over the lists (for this year as well as the subsequent years we would use), I am wondering if I should just switch each year based on the lit for that year. Their history cycles are pretty similar, with the exception of method and materials used. For first grade, I am pretty okay with BKSK's selections, but I feel way, way more drawn to the selections for 2nd and 3rd from BYL.

 

I think I'm just not confident with using BYL because we are coming at all of this as unschoolers, and I feel like I neeeeeeeeeed lots of direction. (And then I picture myself hating so much direction.) Gah!

[dancingmama]

Honestly, I'd seriously consider BYL. For one, it's loads cheaper. We are doing BYL 5th and are loving the book selections. My dd eats them up. We were borrowing most of the books from the library but my daughter wanted to keep several of them to reread, she liked them so much. I picked up most of the books on amazon for a penny and shipping. Perhaps consider doing a unit study over the summer and see how you like her approach. Having come from being unschooling, I liked BYL's approach. It's just enough for me to still feel like child-led is there, especially since she willingly goes with me.

[Farrar]

Well, I guess lots of direction is in the eye of the beholder. I'm only familiar with the book lists of each because I love book lists (I may have a problem). I think they're both uber over-directed, though I guess that from what I know of BYL (I've seen BKSK, but never laid hands on BYL) it's slightly less so than BKSK, but it's still a completely laid out year from start to finish.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What an odd mix of books in a way.  Twenty and Ten?!

 

 

[My4arrows]

I haven't used Bookshark, but the Sonlight core you are talking about. We used it for 1st grade and we did enjoy just about all the books (I wasnt a fan of dolphin adventure since I felt it was dry). I know that the reviews on twenty and ten are mixed. We enjoyed it (my kids were 6 and 4 at that time). Many of those books are perhaps on the more mature side so if your DS is more sensitive it may not be a good fit. But in my opinion the book list is good. My kids can be sensitive, but more information seeking so for them twenty and ten helped them understand the struggles of war. I also pieced the curriculum together buying only the IG from sonlight and saved a lot. It took work of searching thrift shops, garage sales and the Internet, but since the books are used in a variety of curriculums it wasn't too difficult.

[EmilyGF]

Unless you write your own curriculum from scratch, there will be books that you don't like or that don't resonate with you.

 

Decide which approach you like the most, and go with it.

 

Emily

(who decided that dealing with a few not-so-perfect choices was better than writing her own)

[ocelotmom]

I agree with you.

 

I loved Twenty and Ten growing up... when I was around 10 years old. I tried reading it to my son at around 5 or 6 (motivated by Sonlight), and the premise really upset him. Now, he was extremely sensitive, and we happen to know a concentration camp survivor, so the whole topic was a little more real to him than it would be for many kids. But I don't think it's appropriate for K.

 

(The idea of the books being "too mature" for some kids bugs me a little, because there's an implied "immature" for the kids who aren't ready for them. Being sensitive, or cognizant of the fact that the story is representing real children in mortal danger, is not the same as being immature.)

[EliseMcKenna]

I agree with you.

 

I loved Twenty and Ten growing up... when I was around 10 years old. I tried reading it to my son at around 5 or 6 (motivated by Sonlight), and the premise really upset him. Now, he was extremely sensitive, and we happen to know a concentration camp survivor, so the whole topic was a little more real to him than it would be for many kids. But I don't think it's appropriate for K.

 

(The idea of the books being "too mature" for some kids bugs me a little, because there's an implied "immature" for the kids who aren't ready for them. Being sensitive, or cognizant of the fact that the story is representing real children in mortal danger, is not the same as being immature.)

 

Thank you for speaking to this issue, ocelotmom. I've always said you can never "unsee" something. And you can never "unhear" something either. I wouldn't label my daughter as overly sensitive, but even if she were, I believe it's my responsibility to protect that sensitivity as much as possible. With so much great literature out there, I don't understand the point of selecting books that are meant for older students. Just for the challenge? That's possible to do while also keeping children's social/emotional development in perspective. 

 

I know everyone has differing viewpoints on this, so thanks, again, for chiming in. (But really, how does it make sense to schedule a book like that alongside Winnie the Pooh?)

[mc26]

 

 

 

(The idea of the books being "too mature" for some kids bugs me a little, because there's an implied "immature" for the kids who aren't ready for them. Being sensitive, or cognizant of the fact that the story is representing real children in mortal danger, is not the same as being immature.)

 

I was not only screening for things my child may find upsetting, but also subject matter that is not (IMO) appropriate for a 10 year old boy.  Relationships, stuff like that.  These cores, or whatever they are called have a suggested age range--the one we are using says ages 10-13.  So what is "appropriate" for someone's 12 or 13 year old, may not be something my 10 or 11 year old is ready for.  KWIM?  The beauty of what we do is that we can tweak away to our hearts content.  

[matrips]

We do Sonlight, but same books pretty much. I read all their suggested books and my kids have genuinely enjoyed them, sometimes to my surprise. And they reread them all again many times over the next several years. for the Pooh book, I did get that on cd and we listened in the car. That worked better than me trying to read it.

 

Their K year (when we did Sonlight K) was when they were 5 and turned 6 midway through.

[matrips]

Just to add, my kids were the ones that couldn't watch any scary movies (for example any Disney film or Cars or where anything or anyone got hurt) until they were closer to 8. But books didn't seem to bother them in the same way. They might cry at a sad part, but so did I.

[3rugrats]

speaking from a Sonlight user here: many SL users aim to use the core when their child is in the mid to upper range of the age suggestions. (I'm not sure what Bookshark's are?) but for this core you are looking at, many people would use it for 1st or even 2nd grade b/c of the reasons you've listed, not just b/c of the heaviness of the content, but b/c the older the kid is in the range, the more he/she will get out of it. This has been my experience as well. I used this booklist w/ my Ker and 1st grader this year and had to shelve many of the read a-alouds. Even my bright 7 year old 1st grader didn't get some of the finer points. I'm rereading them now slowly and waiting on Core B until next winter.

[Vida Winter]

Have you considered simply using the booklists as a launching point? I have bought Sonlight IGs at different times throughout the years and invariably as life got busy the IG went by the wayside and we simply read the books. Often I would wonder why I was buying the guide - after all, was I not able to read a chapter a day from a few books at once? I applaud BYL for coming out with a less expensive plan. You have to decide if the schedule they provide is enough value added for you to purchase the product, because the books themselves are available to anyone who wants to purchase them, and always have been.

 

Other things to consider - do you want to do crafts to accompany your studies? If so, you should look at Layers of Learning or Moving Beyond the Page. Another new series of products from Barefoot Meandering add real content (dictation, copywork, narration, diagramming, and much more) in addition to rich booklists. Another contender would be the free resources so kindly created by one of the moms on this site - Classical House of Learning.

[TheAttachedMama]

I agree what was posted above about Sonlight/bookshart tending to choose mature books.   We love Sonlight's book picks, but we tend to read them to kids on the upper end of the intended age range.  

[EliseMcKenna]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I'm leaning heavily towards BYL (as of this moment!), simply because I am more comfortable with the book selections. If we went with BKSK, we would probably use K, a level recommended for ages 5-7, and that would be for my 6 and 8-year olds. And I would still be substituting several of the books. 

 

I have a feeling either program would ultimately be fine for us, and because of that, I may very well question my decision for months to come! But for now, I feel like it's time to wrap up all these weeks of research and finally just. pick. something. I've also never used a lit-based program before, so that's another point in BYL's favor -- if this turns out to be entirely the wrong approach for our family, it's not quite the huge investment. 

[MerryAtHope]

I haven't seen/used BYL, just wanted to chime in about Twenty and Ten...

 

My kids actually enjoyed this book, and didn't find it any more scary than some of the Disney stuff that's out there (probably less so in some ways, because you don't have the scary visuals--I'll never forget the witch in Snow White filling the movie theater screen when I was a child!)

 

I read Twenty and Ten to them twice actually, because when we read it in K, they didn't have an understanding of the history at all, just a basic understanding of a war-time situation. To them it was mainly and adventure story. I read it again when they did Sonlight's Core E.

 

 

I know everyone has differing viewpoints on this, so thanks, again, for chiming in. (But really, how does it make sense to schedule a book like that alongside Winnie the Pooh?)

 

Ironically, I found Twenty and Ten easier to read to my kids than Pooh, which has some pretty heady stuff in it, less action, and more difficult language. Pooh is more...contemplative. That's not to say I didn't enjoy Pooh, I did! I just think my kids might have enjoyed it more at a bit older age. But I quoted Pooh in one of the devotionals on my blog :-).

 

Anyway...kids are all different & if you look over a book and have hesitation, put it aside. I've used most of Sonlight's books over the years (though there are new ones in some cores now), and found for the most part, they were just fine here. Sometimes Sonlight "pushed the envelope" for me in terms of my comfort level--I'd find that something would just be at the brink for me but I'd try it and it would work out. But it's easy enough to wait a few years on a book too. 

[3rugrats]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I'm leaning heavily towards BYL (as of this moment!), simply because I am more comfortable with the book selections. If we went with BKSK, we would probably use K, a level recommended for ages 5-7, and that would be for my 6 and 8-year olds. And I would still be substituting several of the books. 

 

I have a feeling either program would ultimately be fine for us, and because of that, I may very well question my decision for months to come! But for now, I feel like it's time to wrap up all these weeks of research and finally just. pick. something. I've also never used a lit-based program before, so that's another point in BYL's favor -- if this turns out to be entirely the wrong approach for our family, it's not quite the huge investment. 

sorry--how did I miss your kids' ages? 

 

then they would be the perfect age for K, esp. the 8yo.

[EliseMcKenna]

sorry--how did I miss your kids' ages? 

 

then they would be the perfect age for K, esp. the 8yo.

 

Shhhhhhhh!!!! 

 

I've made up my mind.

I've made up my mind.

I've made up my mind.

I've made up my mind.

I've made up my mind.

 

Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala!!!!

[3rugrats]

sorry :)

 

I just looked at the Build your own library site b/c I'd never heard of that, very cool!

 

ya know there are many crossover titles b/t the two--you probably know that ;) meaning, you can't go wrong--they are so similar. and from my brief brief brief look, seems like there are activity sheets w/ BYOL...if you/your kids like that kind of thing, there is none w/ SL, so if that helps...

[Elfknitter.#]

Just an aside...

 

As a public librarian, titles like Twenty and Two, while good books, are hard to keep on shelves. Mostly because Scholastic publishing is not the best and often times their best works are older. Which for libraries MAY (not to say it does most certainly mean) these are titles that have long ago left the collection (before these kinds of lists could be considered.)

 

Just something to consider *if* anyone opts to acquire titles from their local library.

[Farrar]

The library thing is probably very local. My library has a really excellent retrospective children's collection. The county next to us only has a million copies of a few books that are "popular" or required by the schools. I think library collections are so local.