CAP Writing and Rhetoric

[Half-Elven]

(cross-posting)

 

If you've used CAP Writing and Rhetoric, can you tell me what you liked about it? 

 

-did it help your student write better

-did you feel you had to supplement with another program

-do you feel it is complete

-are you able to apply it to modern writing i.e. 5 paragraph essay

 

We are currently using Classical Writing, we'll be in Chreia next year.  I do think it is a thorough Progym program, however, the way it is laid out, I've had a hard time getting the rhythm and flow of it that our year looked "choppy." 

 

If there are already threads to this, please let me know!

[Alte Veste Academy]

This one answers some of the questions: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/516258-is-writing-and-rhetoric-cap-enough/ .

[sbgrace]

Well, I'll answer from my personal experience. I used fable through half of Chreia. I have left CAP for now, and probably for good.

 

(cross-posting)

 

If you've used CAP Writing and Rhetoric, can you tell me what you liked about it? 

 

-did it help your student write better

-did you feel you had to supplement with another program

-do you feel it is complete

-are you able to apply it to modern writing i.e. 5 paragraph essay

 

We are currently using Classical Writing, we'll be in Chreia next year.  I do think it is a thorough Progym program, however, the way it is laid out, I've had a hard time getting the rhythm and flow of it that our year looked "choppy." 

 

If there are already threads to this, please let me know!

1. Did it help my kids write better. I think so. Practice helps after all, and the assignments were enjoyable to them most of the time. They were also geared toward practicing specific skills in an organized progression, and this is pretty effective.

 

2 and 3. Yes and no! My kids improved their writing in Fable when I stopped and did the Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever book. They were doing things in the fable assignments that I disliked, but I had no idea how to teach them otherwise. The Most Wonderful gave them the specific instruction, and then we could use that to practice narrative writing with the rest of CAP. In one of the Narrative books outlining is supposedly taught, but the instruction is mostly just a series of examples and assignments. Then it's just supposed to be there somehow. So I used an outlining book from Remedia to cover outlining. In Chreia it is mostly just "do this" type instruction as well. For example, we were told to write an ending for our essay, perhaps relating it to our own/someone's experience, and then given a sample ending. I wanted complete instruction about various ways to end essays! Don't just tell us to end it like putting a bow on top of a present! So, again, it was more just practicing skills. In short, my issue with CAP is that sometimes, though not all the time, the instruction is just not complete, or complete enough for us anyway.

 

4. I don't think they have enough levels published to answer that question. The levels Fable through Narrative II would practice narratives and descriptive writing. Good expository writing would certainly include those two skills, but much more as well. Chreia was practicing multiple paragraphs, but not exactly what you're thinking of (write a paragraph about someone in history or a story who didn't love learning; write a paragraph praising King Arthur, write a final paragraph to tie up your essay, etc.). I suspect you will end up with skills to complete an essay, but you're probably going to develop at least some of them mainly by looking at their examples and practicing! It's hard to say without seeing the future levels.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think the essay question is funny because book 5 teaches a 4 paragraph essay and book 6 skips to the six paragraph essay. I guess CAP wants to be different.

[Targhee]

I've taught Fable and Narrative II to two different kids. So I don't have tons of experience, but here's what I've seen so far.

 

-did it help your student write better

Yes. It was incremental, involves a good amount of structure but a lot of opportunity for creativity. It did more to help my kids with summary and narration a than WWE and I prefer the literary selections over WWE. Writing time at our house went from tearful in the past to only slight resistance, and even at times excitement. Both my children's writing has improved.

 

-did you feel you had to supplement with another program

No, except for grammar.

 

-do you feel it is complete

Can't comment because the entire series isn't even out yet. This isn't a writing program where you do the same thing every year (writing 5 paragraph essays from 4th grade on, hoping each successive year's effort looks better than the last)

 

-are you able to apply it to modern writing i.e. 5 paragraph essay

We haven't come across 5 paragraph essay in the program, but we've learned other forms. Teaching the form of the 5 paragraph essay isn't difficult, if you have something to comment about and a good graphic organizer. In fact, I see the emphasis on these other forms a huge advantage to my kids. If you only know how to cook a pot roast then every time you were asked to cook you would cook a pot roast, which may not be appropriate to the situation. With these other forms they have a lot of tools, and break free from the notion that all academic writing is in the form of an pot roast essay with three supporting ideas, an introduction, and a conclusion. Good writing isn't as formulaic as all that. Good writing is writing fitted to the purpose, with good style and substance.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Well, I'll answer from my personal experience. I used fable through half of Chreia. I have left CAP for now, and probably for good.

 

1. Did it help my kids write better. I think so. Practice helps after all, and the assignments were enjoyable to them most of the time. They were also geared toward practicing specific skills in an organized progression, and this is pretty effective.

 

2 and 3. Yes and no! My kids improved their writing in Fable when I stopped and did the Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever book. They were doing things in the fable assignments that I disliked, but I had no idea how to teach them otherwise. The Most Wonderful gave them the specific instruction, and then we could use that to practice narrative writing with the rest of CAP. In one of the Narrative books outlining is supposedly taught, but the instruction is mostly just a series of examples and assignments. Then it's just supposed to be there somehow. So I used an outlining book from Remedia to cover outlining. In Chreia it is mostly just "do this" type instruction as well. For example, we were told to write an ending for our essay, perhaps relating it to our own/someone's experience, and then given a sample ending. I wanted complete instruction about various ways to end essays! Don't just tell us to end it like putting a bow on top of a present! So, again, it was more just practicing skills. In short, my issue with CAP is that sometimes, though not all the time, the instruction is just not complete, or complete enough for us anyway.

 

4. I don't think they have enough levels published to answer that question. The levels Fable through Narrative II would practice narratives and descriptive writing. Good expository writing would certainly include those two skills, but much more as well. Chreia was practicing multiple paragraphs, but not exactly what you're thinking of (write a paragraph about someone in history or a story who didn't love learning; write a paragraph praising King Arthur, write a final paragraph to tie up your essay, etc.). I suspect you will end up with skills to complete an essay, but you're probably going to develop at least some of them mainly by looking at their examples and practicing! It's hard to say without seeing the future levels.

I hope this isn't too much of a derailment... I am thinking of getting The Most Wonderful book and am curious how it compares to "no more I'm done". Are you familiar with both titles?

[tmstranger]

I used W&R Narrative 1 for my 5th grader at the start of this year.  I really liked the look of it.  I liked the stories they used and I thought the whole program seemed "fun." 

 

My 5th grader would completely disagree with that.  What I have found after switching to another program is that he needed more hand holding and direction than W&R was giving him.  He did fine with narrations and comprehension of the stories, but when it came to the writing, he just didn't "get" what they were asking.  I would sit with him and try to give my own examples, but he usually ended up frustrated. 

 

Now, take this experience with a grain of salt...this was our first year homeschooling and ALL of us were on a learning curve and feeling our way through some subjects.  I don't think I'd return to W&R for either of my kids, but some people really seem to like it. 

 

So, no, my student's writing did not improve, we never made it to 5-paragraph essays, and I didn't feel the instruction was complete since it cause so much stress and confusion on my child's part, but I have no doubt that some of the experienced moms here could teach it better than me!

[luuknam]

I think the essay question is funny because book 5 teaches a 4 paragraph essay and book 6 skips to the six paragraph essay. I guess CAP wants to be different.

 

I don't have CAP W&R, but I can say that IMO the 5-paragraph essay is (vastly) overrated. I'm from NL, and was never taught how to write a 5-paragraph essay. In secondary school we usually just were told to write an essay about x, and how many paragraphs we used was up to us. Also, we had a maximum word count more often than a minimum one. I've seen the writing of American college students who are used to minimum word counts and they often use a LOT of filler words just to get to that word count... more words isn't automatically better. In fact, I think being able to concisely present your idea is a useful skill in and of itself.

 

A good writer can learn to do a 5-paragraph essay without much specific instruction on 5-paragraph essays. Never having been taught how to write a 5-paragraph essay hasn't hindered me in college in America.

[TheAttachedMama]

I hope this isn't too much of a derailment... I am thinking of getting The Most Wonderful book and am curious how it compares to "no more I'm done". Are you familiar with both titles?

 

I own both.  I like "The Most Wonderful..." book better.    It is something I can see myself using in the future.   I had a very hard time implementing the "no more I'm done" book in my home.  I read it, tried it for a few days, and since that time it has been gathering dust on my bookshelf.

 

However, I will say this:   as a homeschooler, I am used to being 'spoon fed'.   I don't like to admit that, but that is the truth that I discovered after buying both of those books!  :)    I am accustomed to picking up a writing curriculum and having it lay everything out and say, "Do this, then do that, next do that, etc. etc."   Similar to the lessons in AAS, WWE, CAP, FLL...or even more "Socratic books" like TC.    All of those books really hold your hand while teaching.

 

The books you listed above are written to teachers in the classroom, not homeschoolers.   They do not spoon feed you a lesson plan.   They sort of give you instructional objectives and some ideas on getting to that point, but you will have to lay out your own "Do this, then do that" lesson plans.   That is probably great if you have a lot of confidence in teaching writing (or experience).   I lack both confidence and experience...so I have learned I prefer a lot of hand-holding.  :)   I am also spoiled and not accustomed to having to adapt something meant for classroom use to my home.   "No more I'm done" seemed to have a lot of classroom management stuff that didn't relate to me.   For example, I don't mind helping my children with spelling since there are only two of them (who write).  In fact, I would rather they double-check how to spell something as opposed to guessing wrong and practicing wrong.  

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't have CAP W&R, but I can say that IMO the 5-paragraph essay is (vastly) overrated. I'm from NL, and was never taught how to write a 5-paragraph essay. In secondary school we usually just were told to write an essay about x, and how many paragraphs we used was up to us. Also, we had a maximum word count more often than a minimum one. I've seen the writing of American college students who are used to minimum word counts and they often use a LOT of filler words just to get to that word count... more words isn't automatically better. In fact, I think being able to concisely present your idea is a useful skill in and of itself.

 

A good writer can learn to do a 5-paragraph essay without much specific instruction on 5-paragraph essays. Never having been taught how to write a 5-paragraph essay hasn't hindered me in college in America.

Yes, I agree. I just found the fact that CAP skips from four to six interesting in light of the OP's specific question about the 5 paragraph essay and the prevalence of that model in schools.

[Clear Creek]

(cross-posting)

 

If you've used CAP Writing and Rhetoric, can you tell me what you liked about it? 

 

-did it help your student write better

-did you feel you had to supplement with another program

-do you feel it is complete

-are you able to apply it to modern writing i.e. 5 paragraph essay

 

We are currently using Classical Writing, we'll be in Chreia next year.  I do think it is a thorough Progym program, however, the way it is laid out, I've had a hard time getting the rhythm and flow of it that our year looked "choppy." 

 

If there are already threads to this, please let me know!

 

I am going to answer this based on my experience using it with my current 5th grader, not my oldest since I used it heavily modified with a different purpose for her. I use the series pretty much as written and on the target grade level with my 5th grader. She completed the first two books in 4th grade and will have completed the second two books in 5th grade (we have several lessons left in book 4).

 

1. Yes, it is helping her learn to be a better writer. The narration exercises work on the skill of finding the main points and retelling the narrative with all the details. The sentence play/copia exercises work on the skill of variety in sentences, words, and sentence parts. The writing portion forces her to work on different ways of writing - writing from a different POV, writing in a different person (i.e. first instead of third), writing paragraphs for a different purpose, and (most importantly) writing in imitation of a model. The amplification exercises forced her to practice adding detail to her writing, and the summarization exercises required the development of the skill of retelling a narrative in the fewest words possible. My daughter is still in elementary school, and these are all things that I think are very important - much more important than writing 5 paragraph essays.

 

2&3. I feel it is complete when it is used in conjunction with a good grammar program. I tend to teach writing with a variety of programs, though, so I use it at this level in conjunction with R&S English (including the writing lessons) and with Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary. R&S teaches outlining to a deeper level, so the outlining lessons in W&R were just review.

 

4. I haven't tried having my daughter write a 5 paragraph essay. She has learned how to write reports in R&S.

 

One thing that I think is a critical element of W&R is the TM. It contains a large amount of help for the teacher, enough that without it I don't think an individual is using the full program. Another thing is that it is very teacher intensive - the teacher is still supposed to be assisting the student with things like outlining, even in the fourth book. An older student who is using the program to either get comfortable with writing or to remediate skills may be able to use it independently (as long as they still do the narration, either oral or written, and do the discussion questions with the parent), but students who are using it on grade level really need parental involvement for it to be successful. Of course, I think all writing programs/instruction need parental involvement in order for the student to be successful, even in high school.

 

[sbgrace]

I hope this isn't too much of a derailment... I am thinking of getting The Most Wonderful book and am curious how it compares to "no more I'm done". Are you familiar with both titles?

 

I own, and used, both. But it's been a long time since "No More I'm Done" here, and I found The Most Wonderful quite a while afterward. The Most Wonderful was more complete, more specific, and easier to implement. You aren't finding tons of books as you do in No More. I didn't feel I had to do a lot of adapting to implement The Most Wonderful. I used it as written. Rather than relatively isolated lessons, the kids are taught, in a very incremental and structured way, to create a quality narrative piece. Some parts of No More, like "show don't tell", will be echoed in Most Wonderful. But Most Wonderful is a complete program that works you step by step toward the goal--creating a well written narrative. It also points out things typical new writers do, and tells you how to teach them to write differently. I loved that part! All those problem things my kids were doing in CAP and writing on their own time were addressed in that book.

[TheAttachedMama]

I own, and used, both. But it's been a long time since "No More I'm Done" here, and I found The Most Wonderful quite a while afterward. The Most Wonderful was more complete, more specific, and easier to implement. You aren't finding tons of books as you do in No More. I didn't feel I had to do a lot of adapting to implement The Most Wonderful. I used it as written. Rather than relatively isolated lessons, the kids are taught, in a very incremental and structured way, to create a quality narrative piece. Some parts of No More, like "show don't tell", will be echoed in Most Wonderful. But Most Wonderful is a complete program that works you step by step toward the goal--creating a well written narrative. It also points out things typical new writers do, and tells you how to teach them to write differently. I loved that part! All those problem things my kids were doing in CAP and writing on their own time were addressed in that book.

 

If you could do things differently, would you have completed a year of "No More I'm Done" before CAP Fable?  Or in between Fable and Narrative?   I have a 2nd and 3rd grader.   (They write about the same even though the 3rd grader is older.)   I was looking for a filler year before we start CAP Fable so that I could teach one writing lesson.  

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I own both. I like "The Most Wonderful..." book better. It is something I can see myself using in the future. I had a very hard time implementing the "no more I'm done" book in my home. I read it, tried it for a few days, and since that time it has been gathering dust on my bookshelf.

 

However, I will say this: as a homeschooler, I am used to being 'spoon fed'. I don't like to admit that, but that is the truth that I discovered after buying both of those books! :) I am accustomed to picking up a writing curriculum and having it lay everything out and say, "Do this, then do that, next do that, etc. etc." Similar to the lessons in AAS, WWE, CAP, FLL...or even more "Socratic books" like TC. All of those books really hold your hand while teaching.

 

The books you listed above are written to teachers in the classroom, not homeschoolers. They do not spoon feed you a lesson plan. They sort of give you instructional objectives and some ideas on getting to that point, but you will have to lay out your own "Do this, then do that" lesson plans. That is probably great if you have a lot of confidence in teaching writing (or experience). I lack both confidence and experience...so I have learned I prefer a lot of hand-holding. :) I am also spoiled and not accustomed to having to adapt something meant for classroom use to my home. "No more I'm done" seemed to have a lot of classroom management stuff that didn't relate to me. For example, I don't mind helping my children with spelling since there are only two of them (who write). In fact, I would rather they double-check how to spell something as opposed to guessing wrong and practicing wrong.

Thank you! I'm the opposite, I can't stand scripted curriculum, so Most Wonderful sounds like a great option for me. I appreciate the comparison to No More, as I did find that one particularly difficult to adapt to home.

[sbgrace]

If you could do things differently, would you have completed a year of "No More I'm Done" before CAP Fable?  Or in between Fable and Narrative?   I have a 2nd and 3rd grader.   (They write about the same even though the 3rd grader is older.)   I was looking for a filler year before we start CAP Fable so that I could teach one writing lesson.  

 

I think it's beneficial to do The Most Wonderful Lessons prior to CAP. I don't know that I would spend time on No More I'm Done, though maybe if I had a really young child and wanted to pick certain lessons to cover. I don't think we got a huge benefit from No More. We got great benefit from time spent on The Most Wonderful. If I were doing it again, I believe I would do it prior to CAP, even if that meant starting cap with Narrative I rather than Fable.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I think it's beneficial to do The Most Wonderful Lessons prior to CAP. I don't know that I would spend time on No More I'm Done, though maybe if I had a really young child and wanted to pick certain lessons to cover. I don't think we got a huge benefit from No More. We got great benefit from time spent on The Most Wonderful. If I were doing it again, I believe I would do it prior to CAP, even if that meant starting cap with Narrative I rather than Fable.

 

I got the Most Wonderful on kindle earlier today and have not put it down.  It seems wonderful!  I love the practical approach!  I think I will do as you say and put off CAp for another year (I was planning to start it in 3rd this fall, but I'll go to 4th) and combine Most Wonderful with MCT Island probably.  We will also restart FIAR as a family, because I think it meshes really well with "Reading like an author". 

[Janeway]

I own both.  I like "The Most Wonderful..." book better.    It is something I can see myself using in the future.   I had a very hard time implementing the "no more I'm done" book in my home.  I read it, tried it for a few days, and since that time it has been gathering dust on my bookshelf.

 

However, I will say this:   as a homeschooler, I am used to being 'spoon fed'.   I don't like to admit that, but that is the truth that I discovered after buying both of those books!  :)    I am accustomed to picking up a writing curriculum and having it lay everything out and say, "Do this, then do that, next do that, etc. etc."   Similar to the lessons in AAS, WWE, CAP, FLL...or even more "Socratic books" like TC.    All of those books really hold your hand while teaching.

 

The books you listed above are written to teachers in the classroom, not homeschoolers.   They do not spoon feed you a lesson plan.   They sort of give you instructional objectives and some ideas on getting to that point, but you will have to lay out your own "Do this, then do that" lesson plans.   That is probably great if you have a lot of confidence in teaching writing (or experience).   I lack both confidence and experience...so I have learned I prefer a lot of hand-holding.  :)   I am also spoiled and not accustomed to having to adapt something meant for classroom use to my home.   "No more I'm done" seemed to have a lot of classroom management stuff that didn't relate to me.   For example, I don't mind helping my children with spelling since there are only two of them (who write).  In fact, I would rather they double-check how to spell something as opposed to guessing wrong and practicing wrong.  

This part has been worrying me. It feels like the kids can get all their answers from me and do not need to ask anyone else or look a word up or otherwise. They do not even do flash cards.

[letsroll]

I own both.  I like "The Most Wonderful..." book better.    It is something I can see myself using in the future.   I had a very hard time implementing the "no more I'm done" book in my home.  I read it, tried it for a few days, and since that time it has been gathering dust on my bookshelf.

 

However, I will say this:   as a homeschooler, I am used to being 'spoon fed'.   I don't like to admit that, but that is the truth that I discovered after buying both of those books!  :)    I am accustomed to picking up a writing curriculum and having it lay everything out and say, "Do this, then do that, next do that, etc. etc."   Similar to the lessons in AAS, WWE, CAP, FLL...or even more "Socratic books" like TC.    All of those books really hold your hand while teaching.

 

The books you listed above are written to teachers in the classroom, not homeschoolers.   They do not spoon feed you a lesson plan.   They sort of give you instructional objectives and some ideas on getting to that point, but you will have to lay out your own "Do this, then do that" lesson plans.   That is probably great if you have a lot of confidence in teaching writing (or experience).   I lack both confidence and experience...so I have learned I prefer a lot of hand-holding.  :)   I am also spoiled and not accustomed to having to adapt something meant for classroom use to my home.   "No more I'm done" seemed to have a lot of classroom management stuff that didn't relate to me.   For example, I don't mind helping my children with spelling since there are only two of them (who write).  In fact, I would rather they double-check how to spell something as opposed to guessing wrong and practicing wrong.  

What is TC?   How is it "Socratic?"  Thanks  

[scootiepie]

I used it as a filler between WWE3 and WWS with my oldest.   I'm debating on whether or not to start with my now 4th grader.

Did it make him a better writer?   I would say no in respect to the mechanics of how-to write.   Meaning, I do not think I could give him a writing assignment and have an expectation that

he'd know how to write a proper story, report, essay, whatnot.   For example, when we got to outlining, it wasn't really taught well IMO. I consider that an important skill.   Now that I'm getting into WWS..... THIS is what I was hoping for in a "writing" program.   CAP was a plus for the creative side of writing, and I do like parts of it including their use of fun and entertaining stories.  I just always thought something was missing and I could never really put my finger on it.