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I am trying to plan put 9th grade for my dd but she is behind in math. She will be taking pre-algebra in 9th grade. So I need a science that does not have much math but it is still high school level. We are Christians so bible content is fine as long as it is subtle not in your face. We study Bible separately so I don't need a second subject that is mostly theology. KWIM

Thanks

 

Oh I also would like something that is not going to make go into sticker shock. Also, if I could use it again with other kids that would be great. My dd is finishing up Aplogia General Science but did not enjoy it. She thought it dry and boring. Thanks!

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Physical Science, Earth Science, Life Science, Biology?

 

Biology (life science is a middle school level Biology course). 

 

Many physical science books do expect algebra, but Earth Science typically has no math requirement.

 

You could do Biology with Apologia, Science Shepherd, or BJU (with or without DIVE) for a high school level pre-planned Biology if you are Christian. If you want secular, my favorite on-level Biology text is Miller/Levine which I have used on its own and with DIVE.

 

Re-read your first post: BJU is out. Their Christian content is definitely in your face! I've heard Science Shepherd isn't and Apologia wasn't bad in Chemistry, but I'm guessing Biology is more so.

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I'm going to try to answer this but not offend anyone

 

A hs course without  at least algebra is not a science course..You can have an appreciation course, or one on the history of a particular science.. noting particularly important discoveries, and important scientists in the field... but without a math component, it's not a science course.

 

I would focus attention  on  a comprehensive  pre algebra/algebra course..

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I'm going to try to answer this but not offend anyone

 

A hs course without  at least algebra is not a science course..You can have an appreciation course, or one on the history of a particular science.. noting particularly important discoveries, and important scientists in the field... but without a math component, it's not a science course.

 

I would focus attention  on  a comprehensive  pre algebra/algebra course..

 

I don't think that's true for Biology courses. I was a Biology and Chemistry major in college and I don't think I ever had a Biology class that required much in the way of Math. For the upper level courses you needed to know statistics and you needed the chemistry and physics background that required math but for a high school level Biology course I don't think there is much math, and definitely not algebra. I teach a high school level Anatomy course at our co-op and it has virtually no math in it. 

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alice,

 

a biology major requires at least calculus.

 

I don't feel that it's good to be    giving options to avoid math.   We're inclined to take the  path of least resistance, and it becomes a habit very easily

 

II feel the op should have her child learn algebra, then take a math based science course.. She has 4 years to  get science credits. She can use the next year to learn algebra

 

 

 

 

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A hs course without  at least algebra is not a science course..You can have an appreciation course, or one on the history of a particular science.. noting particularly important discoveries, and important scientists in the field... but without a math component, it's not a science course.

 

I would focus attention  on  a comprehensive  pre algebra/algebra course..

 

Sorry, but the bolded makes no sense. I have not seen any high school or introductory college biology texts that required algebra.

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Seeing as you are looking at 9th grade - have her take a science course that isn't math intensive.  

 

BUT, have her work hard (in 9th grade) to get up to grade level in math so that she will be ready for a higher level science in 10th grade.  

 

Many kids take Algebra 1 in 9th, so she is only 1 class behind the average student.....but that doesn't mean that it is the path everyone follows.  

 

In our local Christian high school, Physical Science is the science offered for 9th grade.  

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II feel the op should have her child learn algebra, then take a math based science course.. She has 4 years to  get science credits. She can use the next year to learn algebra

 

There is no such thing as a math based high school Biology course. Even AP Biology has no math requirement. (although it does have a chem pre-req and chem requires algebra)

 

I agree that the math needs to be there for physical sciences (chem and physics), but there is no need to not do science freshman year because Algebra isn't done. In my area, all the public schools still teach Algebra as standard in 9th grade and only honors students get it in 8th. None of those thousands and thousands of kids have had Algebra before they start high school science. It isn't cheating. It is reality.

 

OP is asking for what sciences can genuinely be done at a high school level without Algebra. Biology, AP Environmental Science, and Earth Science are all high school (and beyond) level courses with no math prerequisite. I don't think she was planning to stop teaching math, she just wanted to do the right thing in science in the mean time.

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a biology major requires at least calculus.

 

I don't feel that it's good to be    giving options to avoid math.   We're inclined to take the  path of least resistance, and it becomes a habit very easily

 

II feel the op should have her child learn algebra, then take a math based science course.. She has 4 years to  get science credits. She can use the next year to learn algebra

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding math.

The student does not YET have the math background for physics and chemistry. Nowhere did the poster imply that she wanted to avoid math - she wants her student to take a high school level science course for which she has the necessary prerequisites.

Biology is a valid science course which does not contain math, not even at introductory college level for majors. there are others.

Biology majors need calculus, but that does not mean they need math for intro bio.

 

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alice,

 

a biology major requires at least calculus.

 

I don't feel that it's good to be    giving options to avoid math.   We're inclined to take the  path of least resistance, and it becomes a habit very easily

 

II feel the op should have her child learn algebra, then take a math based science course.. She has 4 years to  get science credits. She can use the next year to learn algebra

 

I didn't say she should avoid Math. She was asking for a class for 9th grade and High School Biology does not require algebra, or really any math. 

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding math.

The student does not YET have the math background for physics and chemistry. Nowhere did the poster imply that she wanted to avoid math - she wants her student to take a high school level science course for which she has the necessary prerequisites.

Biology is a valid science course which does not contain math, not even at introductory college level for majors. there are others.

Biology majors need calculus, but that does not mean they need math for intro bio.

 

 

This. 

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VA high school progression, and the DoD school here do an Earth/Space science (like Physical science) in 9th, followed by Biology in 10th, then Chemistry in 11th.

 

You could easily get through 10th grade without much math required, beyond that Algebra 2 is often a pre requisite, or done concurrently. But you have 2 years to figure it out. With Apologia, you could also do Marine Biology, or a year of Anatomy and Physiology and save Chemistry for later (or not at all, depending upon what she needs to graduate/college requirements).

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alice,

 

a biology major requires at least calculus.

 

I don't feel that it's good to be    giving options to avoid math.   We're inclined to take the  path of least resistance, and it becomes a habit very easily

 

II feel the op should have her child learn algebra, then take a math based science course.. She has 4 years to  get science credits. She can use the next year to learn algebra

 

Prealg in 9th and alg 1 in 10th would leave 2 years to get the required 3-4 science credits. A bio major requiring calculus does not mean one must get there in high school. Biology, earth science, astronomy, and other conceptual science courses are worthwhile and preferable to intentionally making a kid fall behind in another subject. :huh: 

 

 

 

OP, in addition to biology, earth science, ecology, and such already recommended, physics and chemistry can be done with "conceptual" courses that are heavy on the understanding and light on the math. Most of them teach the little bit of math you'd need to complete the courses. They could easily be done alongside alg 1 next year for 10th.

 

My ds used Miller Levine's Biology (lots of info in this forum on this one if you search for it) this year. Used copies can be picked up inexpensively on Amazon, especially if you back up an edition or two from the current one.

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Our public high school has 9th graders doing Physical Science and 10th graders doing Bio.  Physical Science has a little bit of math that would fall under Algebra, but you can easily teach what is needed for the course as you get there.  Bio has no math in it other than some stats - basic stats.  Again, you can learn what you need as you go along.

 

Chem and Physics are more math intensive - esp Physics.  I'd wait on those.

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My DD will be studying Biology at the same time she is studying Algebra 1.   I bought the textbook from an Amazon Marketplace Seller (Goodwill in Nashville TN) for one cent  plus shipping and it is in a post office in Nashville as I write this. That textbook is for Texas Public School students so I don't know if that would fit with your religious beliefs or not.  GL

 

ETA: There is also a Study Guide for the Biology textbook I bought.  Available used very inexpensive.  And, I haven't purchased it yet, but there is a CD for Virtual Labs that is about $36 from Amazon.

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alice,

 

a biology major requires at least calculus.

 

I don't feel that it's good to be    giving options to avoid math.   We're inclined to take the  path of least resistance, and it becomes a habit very easily

 

II feel the op should have her child learn algebra, then take a math based science course.. She has 4 years to  get science credits. She can use the next year to learn algebra

I agree with the others, the OP never said they were avoiding math.  Her daughter is behind in math and working to get through it.  As the parent of a child who is also behind in math, through no fault of her own, I totally understand where the OP is coming from.  My daughter is working hard every day to get through math.  She isn't avoiding it or taking the path of least resistance.  I doubt the OP's is either.  

 

Her daughter still needs to fulfill science graduation requirements and have a chance to get into a college if she is taking that path.  That usually means at least three, preferably 4 years of science, which means she needs to take a High School level science in 9th grade if at all possible.  There are several High School (not college) level sciences that do not require Algebra I.  Since she does not yet have the math needed for physics and chemistry, OP is asking for other options and there ARE other options.  Thankfully many here are providing good suggestions to help her out.

 

 

 

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I disagree , and  I'll point  why

 

If  the goal is to simply have a checklist of courses completed  so the college application looks good, your plan sounds okay

 

If  the goal is to actually learn something and be prepared to succeed in college, then no, this is not a good idea

 

You point out she's in 9th grade, and will require 3 or 4 years of science classes, which I agree with..  4 years of math is usually required or heavily recommended as well,which leads to my next point.

 

The op's daughter  is taking pre algebra... That is not an  hs level course, so  even if she takes the year to  master  pre algebra,  she still has 4 years of math left in my opinion...  Basically, I don't  view these courses as high school level, even if  she is technically in the 9th grade. It's no different than taking  elementary algebra in college..  These are remedial courses which do not garner credit.   You disagree, which is fine.. I gave my opinion. Also, Even though I disagree that work in biology does not require   algebra, I'll give that to you.. I'd like to know the several other high school level courses that don't require at the very least, algebra.

 

I took earth science in the 5th grade, possibly 6th or 7th.. I just looked at a sample of Barron's environmental science text, and there is definitely a math/ quantitative reasoning component to it

 

I don't know how to multi quote so I'll quickly reply  others

 

mom2s...I'm pretty sure I never accused anyone of "cheating"

 

Regent, You stated that the op's daughter isn't ready or doesn't have the mat required for certain courses, which  is fine. 

 

The girl though can not quantitatively reason at the high school level, otherwise she would not be in pre algebra.. There's no way of getting around this

 

When a college lists courses required for admission, they'll give a certain number for history, fine arts, etc. When they list  the  number required for science courses, they are assuming these courses were at the high school level, and required a high school level of quantitative reasoning...  This reasoning is what separates science/math courses from other subjects.

 

  If the  "science" course  does not require this, then it's no different than an appreciation course, or perhaps a history course with science as the main topic.. If the goal is to  simply pile up credits, then what I'm saying is pointless

 

This girl can still learn the perquisites required for high school level science/math work and proceed to trig/precalc before graduating

 

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I don't want this topic to be hijacked, so I'll not be replying anymore in this thread.

 

This is  just how i view it. There are others that disagree

 

Respectfully,

 

Crimson

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Earth Science or Biology would work fine. I haven't seen a high school Biology or Earth Science text that required algebra level math skills. I used to teach Earth Science to public high schoolers with LDs in public school. I used standard (not sp ed) texts. Where I work now both earth science and biology are offered and neither requires any notable math. 

 

The hard part of high school biology for most students is the amount of reading and specialized vocabulary for which the student needs both a definition and a picture. 

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 took earth science in the 5th grade, possibly 6th or 7th.. I just looked at a sample of Barron's environmental science text, and there is definitely a math/ quantitative reasoning component to it

 

When they list  the  number required for science courses, they are assuming these courses were at the high school level, and required a high school level of quantitative reasoning...  This reasoning is what separates science/math courses from other subjects.

 

There are high school courses in earth science as well. It is frequently taught in both middle school and high school, but the courses are at different levels. These are often options for students who are behind in math as it may be treated qualitatively rather than quantitatively. There are also textbooks used in college courses which treat the science qualitatively rather than quantitatively, which are also options. I have friends who teach these courses in colleges and I can assure you that they do not require a high degree of quantitative reasoning. You may not consider them as "worth a high school credit", but the colleges give science credit to *their* students for taking them.

 

Low-math options:

Biology, earth science, human biology (a second biology course), environmental science (barron's is prep for AP, not a high school text), botany, zoology, marine biology.

 

Moderate-math options (require pre-algebra and possibly some light algebra):

Meteorology, astronomy, conceptual physical science, oceanography

 

Most of these science courses, the only real math required is unit conversions and possibly solving linear equations or using order of operations to evaluate a formula.

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I'll take you at your word that you're not trying to offend anyone, but frankly this post is rude:

 

If  the goal is to simply have a checklist of courses completed  so the college application looks good, your plan sounds okay

 

If  the goal is to actually learn something and be prepared to succeed in college, then no, this is not a good idea

 

... If the goal is to  simply pile up credits, then what I'm saying is pointless

 

Suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is just trying to "pile up credits" so "the college application looks good" and does not care about "actually learning something" is both snide and untrue.

 

 

I'd like to know the several other high school level courses that don't require at the very least, algebra.

 

I took earth science in the 5th grade, possibly 6th or 7th.. I just looked at a sample of Barron's environmental science text, and there is definitely a math/ quantitative reasoning component to it

 

When a college lists courses required for admission, they'll give a certain number for history, fine arts, etc. When they list  the  number required for science courses, they are assuming these courses were at the high school level, and required a high school level of quantitative reasoning...  This reasoning is what separates science/math courses from other subjects.

 

 If the  "science" course  does not require this, then it's no different than an appreciation course, or perhaps a history course with science as the main topic

 

 

This seems to imply that you believe parents on this board (or at least the ones who disagree with you) simply don't understand what colleges consider "high school level." So are you assuming that those who are recommending specific courses and texts either (1) are recommending texts that are not "high school level" or (2) don't realize that the high school texts in those subjects do require algebra as a prerequisite? In either case, these assumptions would be incorrect. You do not seem to be very familiar with current high school science texts, since you are unaware that Earth Science is also taught at the high school level (Tarbuck is the author of a number of widely adopted Earth Science texts for both high school and college). Environmental Science and Biology are both taught at introductory as well as AP levels, with no algebra required.

 

(BTW, one of the parents whose opinions you are "correcting" in this thread regarding what colleges expect from high school science courses happens to be a physics professor as well as the parent of a homeschooled daughter currently studying physics at U Chicago.)

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(BTW, one of the parents whose opinions you are "correcting" in this thread regarding what colleges expect from high school science courses happens to be a physics professor as well as the parent of a homeschooled daughter currently studying physics at U Chicago.)

 

& then there's the doctor....

 

;)

 

 

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Just to throw it out there, AP Environmental Science actually does have a hefty algebra component. There is no math prerequisite, but that would be a hard road with only PreA behind you. I do not know why you would drop your student into an AP science class with a lower math level, but just in case...Regular and even honors Earth or Environmental Science can easily be done without much of any algebra.

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Thank you for all who have made suggestions. I did not mean to stir up trouble just wanted some advise from those that have BTDT.

 

My dd will be doing math over the next 2 summers so that by 10th she will be back on "level". She has dyslexia and dysgraphia which has taken her a long time to overcome which is why she is behind.

 

She didn't start reading on level till summer between 6th and 7th grade. I thought about having her do a gap year but she would rather do extra work over summer.

 

I am going to check out the options for Earth or Environmental Science. Thanks again!

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I just noticed that Crimson has 12 posts.

Maybe she (or he) is a newbie with lofty ideals.

 

In my opinion, all science courses in high school are introductions. In fact, ALL courses in high school are introductions. (Except for math. Math needs to be understood progressively. )

 

High school classes are not meant for the student to COMPLETELY learn/grasp/understand everything about subject content! One can learn an awful LOT about science with conceptual courses that set a foundation.

 

High school is a foundation for college and a foundation for life. I think all of us "oldbies" here at WTM know that.

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Thank you for all who have made suggestions. I did not mean to stir up trouble just wanted some advise from those that have BTDT.

 

My dd will be doing math over the next 2 summers so that by 10th she will be back on "level". She has dyslexia and dysgraphia which has taken her a long time to overcome which is why she is behind.

 

She didn't start reading on level till summer between 6th and 7th grade. I thought about having her do a gap year but she would rather do extra work over summer.

 

I am going to check out the options for Earth or Environmental Science. Thanks again!

Facing the same struggles here, although mine is a bit further behind heading into 9th. DD is doing the same thing, she is working through summers and even weekends when she can. Good luck 3and3. Best wishes to you both.

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In my opinion, all science courses in high school are introductions. In fact, ALL courses in high school are introductions. (Except for math. Math needs to be understood progressively. )

 

High school classes are not meant for the student to COMPLETELY learn/grasp/understand everything about subject content! One can learn an awful LOT about science with conceptual courses that set a foundation.

 

High school is a foundation for college and a foundation for life. I think all of us "oldbies" here at WTM know that.

 

Thanks, Pam.  Your post is a good reminder to help all of us ("underachievers" and "overachievers") just take a deep breath (or two !) and keep on learning.  :)

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I wanted to add a few comments. First, in my local high school, prealgebra is one of the 9th grade options, and students get regular high school creit for it. Secondly, I applaud you for not trying to rush your dd. Having a solid foundation is more important than rushing ahead, imho. The only criticism I have is that you used the word 'behind,' lol.

 

I am following along with the physics part of my ds's physical science course, and I wanted to share a few observations, in case they can be a help. Btw, I am not a physicist or a doctor, which is why I am catching up with science now, at an advanced age. :-)

 

Something I read on the Physics classroom website, but can't find a link to, is the importance of making a picture -- literally -- when problem solving. So, it might help if your dd got in the habit of making pictures for word problems. And that you made sure her course includes word problems. The Physics Classroom mentions, and I agree, that a lot of mistakes are made because people use the wrong formulas for a problem, or plug I the wrong numbers, or somehow don't conceptualize for picture what is happening. A lot of the problems are missed, not because students do not understand the math, but because they do not understand the problem.

 

The second point I wanted to make was about good problem solving habits. Writing every step of a problem, clearly, legibly, in order, without skipping steps, may be tedious at times, but is a tremendously good habit to have as problems get more complicated. So, if your dd needs work In this area, practice now would benefit her later. Btw, some of the brightest students skip steps and are surprised when negative signs, for example, just get lost.

 

Another good habit is writing units along with numbers, for example 10 kg, not just 10. It is easy to get in the habit of doing the numbers and adding the units in the end, but that can lead to confusion when the problems have more different types of units.

 

The actual math in the algebra based textbooks I have seen is not that difficult, that is to say, not as difficult as the math is a full algebra I course, and good problem solving habits -- ones that can be worked on in prealgebra-- will help a lot.

 

Good luck!

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Thank you for all who have made suggestions. I did not mean to stir up trouble just wanted some advise from those that have BTDT.

 

My dd will be doing math over the next 2 summers so that by 10th she will be back on "level". She has dyslexia and dysgraphia which has taken her a long time to overcome which is why she is behind.

 

She didn't start reading on level till summer between 6th and 7th grade. I thought about having her do a gap year but she would rather do extra work over summer.

 

I am going to check out the options for Earth or Environmental Science. Thanks again!

 

I think you have a good plan.  Pre Alg is a math credit option in the high school where I work, so I wouldn't put any stock in those saying it's not.  What is FAR more important is giving your daughter a solid understanding of math at her pace, not some vague "everyone should do this at this point" pace.  Then, yes, choose her science classes with her ability in mind.  Pre Alg students here still take Physical Science, but their class is set that they get more help on the math than Alg students.

 

Usually students who are in Pre Alg by 9th grade aren't headed toward college.  However, I have seen exceptions IRL and those have come from students where their "math brain" just didn't "get it" at an average speed (some kids ARE behind average in speed, but not necessarily behind at the finish line).  This is normal and homeschooling can definitely help.  One of these students I saw struggle in math in 8th and 9th grade, but then it clicked.  Once it clicked, she flew through it and ended up going to college as a math major.  She doubled up on math while in high school to make it happen.  (We're on block scheduling, so this isn't difficult.)  Granted, I haven't heard from her since to know how it ended up, but she left here doing well - even compared to other students.

 

I think you're on the right track and definitely don't feel what is going on is sub par.  What is ideal about homeschooling is being able to work with our kids/students as individuals on their schedules.

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I'd also like to add that exposing kids to lots of qualitative conceptual sciences can pay off hugely because when they finally synch their brains & maths & writing abilities, they soar. I've had to adapt so many things, relying on video (teaching company, HHMI etc), scribing, skipping written portions etc for years but when it all clicks, they fly through certain courses because it turns out that years of doing what some would call 'light/non credit/fake' science has given them tons of background knowledge.
 

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I have been using Kolbe Academy's Biology home study course this year.  I really like it.  It uses the Miller Levine Biology book, a book commonly used in high schools.  (The 2014-15 course plan used the older "dragonfly" book, but I think there is an update in the works to offer the course plan aligned with the "macaw" book in the future.  These names refer to the photo on the cover.)  Kolbe is a Catholic provider, but I really appreciate the way that the course plan integrates current scientific understanding with church teachings.  (I've found everything so far to be consistent with our family's beliefs as evangelical Christians who don't hold young Earth creation beliefs.  I am a big fan of the book Chance or Purpose, which is a supplement to the course.)

 

http://kolbe.org/homeschool/courses/high-school/science-curriculum/

 

Kolbe also has an introduction to Physics and Chemistry, which would be a possible follow on course for when she is in algebra 1.

 

As others mentioned, another possible option is to use conceptual level science courses.  What I've seen is that many colleges want to see course descriptions for homeschool courses anyway.  So there is not really an issue of deception if you are listing Conceptual Physics or Conceptual Physical Science on a transcript and giving a course description that lays out the content of the course along with the textbook used.  

 

There is no reason why you should freeze science understanding, waiting for some future level of math facility.

 

Don't panic.  

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Alternative Sciences (some have a lab component and some do not):
Some require Biology first. Here in TN, college-bound students are required 3 sciences (2 with labs). Some sciences count towards the 3, and others only count as electives, so If you are using an umbrella school you may want to ask them first.
 
1.      Apologia: Marine Biology ( http://www.apologia.com/index.asp?proc=pg&pg=3)
            Homeschool Supercenter.com has other publishers as well for Marine Biology and Oceanography.
2.      Apologia: The Human Body ( http://www.apologia.com/index.asp?proc=pg&pg=3)--know many people who have done this one without biology first.
3.      Environmental Science:  http://oakmeadow.com/courses/environmental-science/:
4.      Agriscience: https://www.clp.org/store/by_course/95
5.      Introductory Horticulture: https://www.clp.org/store/by_course/116
7. Geology (Homeschool Supercenter.com)

 

 

 Using a search engine like Google and adding “the name of the science+ homeschool†will give alternative curricula :)

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I have been using Kolbe Academy's Biology home study course this year. I really like it. It uses the Miller Levine Biology book, a book commonly used in high schools. (The 2014-15 course plan used the older "dragonfly" book, but I think there is an update in the works to offer the course plan aligned with the "macaw" book in the future. These names refer to the photo on the cover.) Kolbe is a Catholic provider, but I really appreciate the way that the course plan integrates current scientific understanding with church teachings. (I've found everything so far to be consistent with our family's beliefs as evangelical Christians who don't hold young Earth creation beliefs. I am a big fan of the book Chance or Purpose, which is a supplement to the course.)

 

http://kolbe.org/homeschool/courses/high-school/science-curriculum/

 

Kolbe also has an introduction to Physics and Chemistry, which would be a possible follow on course for when she is in algebra 1.

 

As others mentioned, another possible option is to use conceptual level science courses. What I've seen is that many colleges want to see course descriptions for homeschool courses anyway. So there is not really an issue of deception if you are listing Conceptual Physics or Conceptual Physical Science on a transcript and giving a course description that lays out the content of the course along with the textbook used.

 

There is no reason why you should freeze science understanding, waiting for some future level of math facility.

 

Don't panic.

My ds uses the Miller Levine Macaw edition in his hs biology honors course. I am very familiar with it -- I do not recall any algebra. It is an excellent, widely used textbook, comes in at least 2 versions, the On Level and the Core. Core, which I have not seen, is less comprehensive than On Level. You can get it in an iBook for about $15, iirc, a terrific value.

 

Another book I love is the EO Wiilson series, Life on Earth, seven slim volumes, iBooks only, very engaging, about same level as Miller Levine. Fabulous and free!

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