Hunter Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 So what do you think about Ella Frances Lynch's suggestions for arithmetic? https://archive.org/details/educatingchilda00lyncgoog I'm still reading it, so can't really review it yet. Months past when we talked this author, I think Educating the Child at Home wasn't yet available as a free eBook, and just the Bookless Lessons was free? I needed to print and take notes on the arithmetic to really get it. I'm pretty fascinated with this today. I'll be posting more tonight and tomorrow. Old threads where Ella Frances Lynch is discussed. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Just printed the section on arithmetic. I am not an expert on education and especially not mathematics, but I'm really excited to learn as much as I can as I begin to teach my son more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I had to go run some errands, but am back home and looking forward to diving back into this chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I just read the first 10/11 pages in detail up until I thought it was too advanced for what we are currently trying to teach. I will continue to review this and read more as we advance in our topics.First thing that popped out at me was a sentence in the first paragraph about "too generous apportionment" of our home education is dedicated to arithmetic. I have not read her other works, but I wonder what she values the most. Math seems to always be placed very high. Even as I am beginning our education journey I have a full notebook page of ideas for first grade mathematics. Time to reevaluate my ideas, I guess. She mentions studies where waiting to teach concepts later where the speed of the child's reception is greater. This seems very in line with a Better Late than Early philosophy. It was calming to hear her say that you do not need a textbook at the early stages and really only require pebbles and later a notebook. Her guidepost to begin when the child can count to twenty AND was interested in the process I think is great advice. She also is good about saying that the child will easily give up the manipulatives when they no longer need them. Short lessons, but ones that are given daily are something she emphasizes often. I was surprised that after counting the child starts right off with skip counting/multiplication. Most modern curriculums seem to teach addition and subtraction first and then multiplication and division. Is this a common methodology among other vintage math texts? I know Waldorf introduces the four processes at the beginning, but rarely see this in other modern math programs. She seems to be very Charlotte Mason like when she requires little each day, but that they all be done accurately and to be done in a way that forms a habit. She does not do drill until the child is 9/10 years old. This is also about the time the child begins to keep a notebook. She says, "But no statement is written down here or later until the result has been ascertained by actual count." This is good advice even if doing basic counting/addition. That is what I took away from my first reading of the first 1/3 or so of this chapter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Grube was the one to really get the 4 processes thing into common practice. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/409801-grubes-method-of-teaching-arithmetic-why-havent-i-heard-of-this/ I believe that the Eclectic Manual of Methods is speaking against this method at one point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I finished the whole thing. ArlieMarie that is an excellent review! One of the things I realized is that it doesn't have to be Ella's way of not. I can glean notebooking ideas from her and I can reprioritize and reduce, without entirely dropping early algorithms. I think EFL might be entirely right. But if a kid can do algorithms, they are going to test a LOT higher if they can do them when tested. I'm not sure after reading this though, that I will ever spend as much time on algorithms before age 10, again, unless a child is clearly gifted. And if a child was struggling with algorithms like I did, I'd drop them till age 10/11/12 when I suddenly DID get them about 2 years "behind" when I "should" have. I have been coming to this conclusion that less time needs to be spent on math. no matter the consequences. I've been at this too long, and clearly see the waste, and I'm just too lazy to keep wasting so much time on something that is not bringing the payback that other topics do. EFL is speaking to the already converted about this, when speaking to ME. EFL is big on poetry memorization and working around the home. And sleeping and playing. When I think of EFL, I think of poetry memorization first. The children learn poetry and then partially teach themselves to read by "reading" the poems they have memorized. This is similar to how I taught myself to read, with "Go Dogs Go", and I know firsthand that it works with some kids. Her math is similar. The children are teaching themselves. Children are empowered. They are ingeniously set up to figure things out for themselves. I need to read this a few more times. It's good, really, really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 With EFL's methodology in mind, what vintage text if you had to choose one, because I understand she would not recommend one for early math, would you choose? I guess it would begin with counting to ten or perhaps even higher. She seems to mention twenty more than once. Maybe this text would include some early money manipulation. She also seems to want this work to be done independently or at least in a way that the child can help himself. In this way, it seems very Montessori. Although, she says this is to be done with the teacher, "very rarely directly helping, but occasionally directing discreetly." She wants the child to make these discoveries for himself. I think this quote was great: "The highest and noblest purpose of the teacher has been obtained when the child has been taught to be an independent, resourceful thinker and worker." Self education. That is always the point, isn't it? So I guess the major thing now is how do you do that? How does a mother provide that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Hunter can answer the vintage text question in detail, I'm sure. :) But I'm chiming in to say that cuisinaire rods are an amazing way to help a child move along the path of self teaching in math. I am continually amazed at how much my kids and I have learned from simply playing with them. I really need to read EFL. I was very interested when a thread popped up awhile back about her, but at the time I just couldn't do the reading. Maybe I'll be able to give it a go now.... off to take a look. :auto: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Hunter can answer the vintage text question in detail, I'm sure. :) But I'm chiming in to say that cuisinaire rods are an amazing way to help a child move along the path of self teaching in math. I am continually amazed at how much my kids and I have learned from simply playing with them. I really need to read EFL. I was very interested when a thread popped up awhile back about her, but at the time I just couldn't do the reading. Maybe I'll be able to give it a go now.... off to take a look. :auto: I have a set of the Jumbo Cuisinaire Rods in our block cabinet, but they are rarely played with. He prefers the magnatiles and tegu blocks along with his basket of robots. I have helped him build a ladder before and then make it into a square to show 1+9, 2+8, etc. He has replicated this before on his own. Perhaps I need to watch some more Education Unboxed videos and "play" near him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 My brain is racing in circles trying to figure out which texts, if any texts are EFL. I also am trying to decide what I want to embrace and what I want to discard for ME and right NOW. And I'm trying to figure out what lines up with and contradicts other authors. I don't feel like I have the resources and energy to convert to EFL, entirely, and am not sure that her way is entirely right in general or for ME or for NOW. But EFL has said some things I have been leaning towards and she is answering some questions I have had. She has my FULL attention right now. I think for ME, I'm leaning towards drawing BITS from Ray's Primary and Intellectual, and the Eclectic Manual of Methods. Also Blumenfeld's How to Tutor. I need to reread Grube's. Somewhere on a thumbdrive I have the Simply Charlotte Mason pdf. I have some Waldorf math. I don't like to use packaged manipulatives and feel that if a concept needs something not used in real life, I have to question the need to teach it at all, or at least to beginners. Also, I cannot depend on being able to keep much of anything. My life is surreal and ever changing and I need to be able to adapt to sudden mess. I need to look for methods that adapt to my lifestyle, instead of trying to adapt to a method. My favorite manipulative is money, especially coins; it's something that students have often experienced some success with. Sometimes candy, especially for sorting and categories and outlining and patterns; my students REALLY struggle with that type of stuff, and candy is a familiar and safe manipulative for them to use. Bits of cut up paper; they can be glued into a notebook. I have used bags of beans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 I like flashcards to just be scraps of paper, and I like to glue a decorated envelope onto a decorated page in the student's math notebook. Flashcards are more welcome when an actual piece of the student notebook. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I have a set of the Jumbo Cuisinaire Rods in our block cabinet, but they are rarely played with. He prefers the magnatiles and tegu blocks along with his basket of robots. I have helped him build a ladder before and then make it into a square to show 1+9, 2+8, etc. He has replicated this before on his own. Perhaps I need to watch some more Education Unboxed videos and "play" near him. I think we've had the most success when I've been excited about it myself and show them things just because I think they're cool. Like how square numbers make real squares... I still can't get over that one. I wish I'd understood that way in school.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I just printed the recommendations from your Public Domain Curriculum, Hunter, for Years 0 and 1. Those selections along with this EFL chapter on arithmetic, Moebius Noodles, Efficiency Arithmetic: Primary pages 1-6, and the Missouri Early Learning Standards http://dese.mo.gov/sites/default/files/eel-el-math-parent.pdfare in a big 3" ring binder. My biggest obstacle with my nearly 6 yo at the moment is counting to 20. I honestly think he could do it, but he always stops after 12. He has trouble saying thirteen and fourteen. I called our pediatrician recently to get a new speech evaluation. He was born with some birth defects that required intubation at birth and can contribute to speech delays. I am not certain this is the issue, but would like to make sure everything is ok. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Maybe have him start counting at 12 or 13, instead of 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 What about this: 1,2,3,4, FIVE. Hold out dominant hand. 6,7,8,9, TEN. Hold out other hand. 11, 12, 13, 14, FIFTEEN. Hold out dominant foot. 16, 17, 18, 19, TWENTY. Hold out other foot. So, he gets stuck on the dominant foot. Start over at the beginning of the dominant foot, not at 1, and just work on 11-15, and make sure you shout FIFTEEN so he gets the idea that that foot is teens and ends in 15. How about singing a nursery rhyme that goes to 20? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Some of the public domain math in year 0 and year 1 is meant to complement a slanted cursive-first approach. If you are not teaching slanted cursive and you are teaching a child with LDs they might not always be the best resources that are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Hunter, I will have to investigate her tonight, but I wanted to read through the old threads first but your link to the old threads doesn't work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Some of the public domain math in year 0 and year 1 is meant to complement a slanted cursive-first approach. If you are not teaching slanted cursive and you are teaching a child with LDs they might not always be the best resources that are available. Perhaps speech is considered a LD, but I think this is a minor issue. I think he is a very bright child. He just won the Mastodon Science Fair for a project on conductors vs. insulators with squishy circuits. I was never exposed to electricity in K, but can't imagine thinking through the scientific method at 5. He also is not reading yet, but has known all the letter sounds for a long time. We haven't done consonant blends yet and perhaps focusing on that would be enough to fix the firteen (13) firteen (14) problem. I think this could also be a speech issue, but he is very slow at blending. I will probably have our new baby anytime this week, but we'll have a new speech eval soon and decide what we need to do. He has learned to print his name without instruction, but I do plan on introducing cursive soon. Perhaps this is a personal problem, but I cannot decide on how to introduce this. At the moment I think I will use Pentime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Hunter, I will have to investigate her tonight, but I wanted to read through the old threads first but your link to the old threads doesn't work. I can do a search for "ella frances lynch" but it seems like copying and pasting the link, doesn't create a link that works. Hmmmm.... Sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I like flashcards to just be scraps of paper, and I like to glue a decorated envelope onto a decorated page in the student's math notebook. Flashcards are more welcome when an actual piece of the student notebook. At what age do you start a math notebook? Would this be too much work for a K/1 student? I was thinking of doing a block this summer similar to a Waldorf quality of numbers using a unlined main lesson notebook and using the Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey. I guess for our first flashcards we could make ones like these: http://howthesunrose-lalagirl.blogspot.com/2013/02/watercolor-number-cards.html if money were of no importance I would buy these http://www.bellalunatoys.com/waldorf-learning-toys/waldorf-math-number-cards.html I liked the quote in EFL, pg. 110, "But no statement is written down here or later until the result has been ascertained by actual count." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Perhaps speech is considered a LD, but I think this is a minor issue. I think he is a very bright child. He just won the Mastodon Science Fair for a project on conductors vs. insulators with squishy circuits. I was never exposed to electricity in K, but can't imagine thinking through the scientific method at 5. He also is not reading yet, but has known all the letter sounds for a long time. We haven't done consonant blends yet and perhaps focusing on that would be enough to fix the firteen (13) firteen (14) problem. I think this could also be a speech issue, but he is very slow at blending. I will probably have our new baby anytime this week, but we'll have a new speech eval soon and decide what we need to do. He has learned to print his name without instruction, but I do plan on introducing cursive soon. Perhaps this is a personal problem, but I cannot decide on how to introduce this. At the moment I think I will use Pentime. 2E kids will keep you guessing. At 16, I begged my 2E kid to level with me and let me more accurately know what was going on with him so we could better prepare for college. He laughed at me and said no one, not even me, would ever know the full extent of either his gifts or LDs. I was flying by the seat of my pants with my 2E kid. Don't burn yourself out. The best advice I would give my old self, if I could, would be to not burn myself out, stay focused on the home in HOMEschooling, and give more equal time to EVERYONE in the family, not just the quirkiest and the loudest. My 2E kid wasn't even talking in sentences to me, and had never read a single word aloud, when he was probably reading the 2nd book in the Jurassic Park series. I don't know what a mom is supposed to do with THAT. No advice. Just :grouphug: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 At what age do you start a math notebook? Would this be too much work for a K/1 student? I was thinking of doing a block this summer similar to a Waldorf quality of numbers using a unlined main lesson notebook and using the Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey. I guess for our first flashcards we could make ones like these: http://howthesunrose-lalagirl.blogspot.com/2013/02/watercolor-number-cards.html if money were of no importance I would buy these http://www.bellalunatoys.com/waldorf-learning-toys/waldorf-math-number-cards.html I liked the quote in EFL, pg. 110, "But no statement is written down here or later until the result has been ascertained by actual count." Are pages 22-23 and 25-26 on number work in Hoenshel's Language Lessons helpful at all? https://archive.org/details/hoenshelslangua00hoengoog Is this free African Waldorf math of any use? http://www.entwicklungshilfe3.de/media/Bilder_ZSE/UEber_Uns_Dateien/Grundlagentexte/MATHEMATICS_GRADES_1_2_TRAINING_MANUAL.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 2E kids will keep you guessing. At 16, I begged my 2E kid to level with me and let me more accurately know what was going on with him so we could better prepare for college. He laughed at me and said no one, not even me, would ever know the full extent of either his gifts or LDs. I was flying by the seat of my pants with my 2E kid. Don't burn yourself out. The best advice I would give my old self, if I could, would be to not burn myself out, stay focused on the home in HOMEschooling, and give more equal time to EVERYONE in the family, not just the quirkiest and the loudest. My 2E kid wasn't even talking in sentences to me, and had never read a single word aloud, when he was probably reading the 2nd book in the Jurassic Park series. I don't know what a mom is supposed to do with THAT. No advice. Just :grouphug: Robby didn't talk until he was nearly three. He also didn't eat ANYTHING until nearly 18 months because he had such an oral aversion. My husband read a book by Thomas Sowell Lake-Talking Children, maybe this describes your 2E son. I don't know if I would consider my son 2E, but I do think he is bright. I do not think we are behind because he cannot count to 20. He can do many other things like explain how a capacitor works and how electrons flow. :) When I reflect upon how much progress that is from not speaking to understanding a physics concept in under 3 years it is pretty remarkable. This could just be a proud parent statement though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 At what age do you start a math notebook? Would this be too much work for a K/1 student? I was thinking of doing a block this summer similar to a Waldorf quality of numbers using a unlined main lesson notebook and using the Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey. I guess for our first flashcards we could make ones like these: http://howthesunrose-lalagirl.blogspot.com/2013/02/watercolor-number-cards.html if money were of no importance I would buy these http://www.bellalunatoys.com/waldorf-learning-toys/waldorf-math-number-cards.html I liked the quote in EFL, pg. 110, "But no statement is written down here or later until the result has been ascertained by actual count." This is why I love Ray's so much in these early years. Everything is oral. My ds was definitely not up to writing anything when he was 5-6 but we were easily able to move forward because we worked orally instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm still processing all of this. I think EFL would be rolling over in her grave to see us first talk textbooks when it so obvious she is NOT advocating the use of textbooks at all. But if we ARE going to want to just kinda sorta follow her instructions and DO want to use at least BITS of a textbook, as I am looking through what I have, the books that look the most helpful to me are Ray's, Eclectic Manual of Methods, and How to Tutor, because of all the tables they have in them. To fully do EFL, I really think I would need to compile a notebook of tables, to work through one at a time. I'd need to decide the order of tables beforehand instead of winging it, as this doesn't come all that naturally to me, at least not yet. The method resonates with me, and I have been using notebooking of tables for awhile, but I still don't feel so proficient at teaching them, that I don't need a guide. I think that if someone were to basically do EFL for the BULK of their math, and then just teach a BIT of algorithms with the general idea of neoclassical grammar stage rote memory and not even try to explain, but then in 5/6th grade pull it all together in the logic stage with some great success. In the past this was exactly what was done in 5th grade with either Saxon 54 first edition or Ray's Practical Arithmetic following Beechick's instructions. Both books start with a complete review, focus on vocabulary, and expect this to maybe be the first book that a student really buckles down with and READS and tackles the algorithms. So in the past year, I kind of sneered at Beechick's Ray's guide, but I'm looking at it with new eyes, after reading EFL. I wouldn't follow it exactly, but it's more parallel to EFL than anything else. And for ME, Ray's can be shipped with Amazon prime, that is a biggy for ME. And also I can print pages for more transient students that I don't expect to continue long enough to need to invest in a book for them. And I like to do Waldorf INSPIRED math pages. I find full out Waldorf to be a huge waste of time and money, but I do use bits of it. And it's nice that Waldorf and EFL both have a similar scope and sequence. So, I'm going to brush up a bit on some of my Waldorf math. I think EFL's no nonsense Catholic approach can be a balance to anyone feeling overly pulled to modern Waldorf's commercialism and it's focus on anthroposophy. Asking yourself, "Would EFL have used/approved of this idea?" might be helpful. It will be interesting to see what I think a year from now, after I have had time to digest all this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Ok, so far I have only read the first three chapters so I have nothing to say about arithmetic yet, but I really enjoyed what I have read so far. She is giving me confidence in home education when high school seems daunting with a struggling child and a new baby coming on top of health issues. There is a Waldorf school opening near my sister soon and she is considering putting her kids there in the future (she has a few years but sometimes waiting lists start early in specialty schools like that). I did not have much to tell her except that Waldorf looks really crafty and interesting in some ways but I am unsure of the underlying philosophies and would want to know more before considering enrolling my child there. Since I know no one in real life who talks about Waldorf, much less uses it, can someone please point me to one or two good introductory books on it that I can share with my sister and possibly read myself? I have looked at the Waldorf stores and the art supplies look really tempting but I am overwhelmed with the amount of books and don't know where to begin to understand the basics. When I get to the arithmetic part of EFL I will come back and comment. This week I have put down S-U and Ray's and picked Saxon back up for my ten year old (13 year old never switched) and math flashcards and an abacus for my 6 and 8 year olds. I am thinking about just having my 8 year old finish mastering his facts (I don't think he is far off and should be able to finish this summer) and then go right into Saxon 5/4 for third grade at a pace he can handle. I will hold his hand a bit at the beginning and then let go. I like Ray's and S-U a lot but I find that they are reliant on me whereas counting (1-100 and understanding those numbers on an abacus and with base ten blocks) and skip counting to math facts to Saxon is much more independent more quickly and goes straight through high school. I don't think I will use Intermediate 3. The format is just too different. If we need to do the roadschooling thing I may rethink Saxon because of size. Money is an issue but I won't need anything else for Saxon for awhile since I have 6/5 already except maybe the tests and worksheets book. They now sell a separate copy of the Saxon math facts for $10 so I may pick those up for my younger two. I have some old sets from the 1st-3rd grade Saxon books but I am not sure they are complete.... But after EFL I may have totally new revelations....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm still very interested in her ways of homeschooling, but in the months since those threads, I've been focusing most of my energies on laying the groundwork in terms of overcoming character issues (mostly mine), forming habits, and simplifying our routine. We've been using some of her approach for literature, but haven't started with arithmetic yet. This is partly because I'm not sure that the self-directed "pebbles + notebook" lessons would catch on with my little folks right now, as they're still constantly exposed to a plethora of toys, books, clutter, and educational doo-dads. In one of her magazine articles (which I'll try to dig up), EFL says emphatically that simplifying the environment is THE most important part of education. Having too much is far worse than having nothing at all. She was writing at the beginning of the 20th century, when abundant material goods and a fast-paced life were starting to become the norm. If only I'd read her advice years ago, when my eldest was tiny! But I probably wouldn't have believed her, because all that stuff is just so bright and shiny, and just one more thing couldn't hurt, right? Live and learn... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Ok, so far I have only read the first three chapters so I have nothing to say about arithmetic yet, but I really enjoyed what I have read so far. She is giving me confidence in home education when high school seems daunting with a struggling child and a new baby coming on top of health issues. There is a Waldorf school opening near my sister soon and she is considering putting her kids there in the future (she has a few years but sometimes waiting lists start early in specialty schools like that). I did not have much to tell her except that Waldorf looks really crafty and interesting in some ways but I am unsure of the underlying philosophies and would want to know more before considering enrolling my child there. Since I know no one in real life who talks about Waldorf, much less uses it, can someone please point me to one or two good introductory books on it that I can share with my sister and possibly read myself? I have looked at the Waldorf stores and the art supplies look really tempting but I am overwhelmed with the amount of books and don't know where to begin to understand the basics. When I get to the arithmetic part of EFL I will come back and comment. This week I have put down S-U and Ray's and picked Saxon back up for my ten year old (13 year old never switched) and math flashcards and an abacus for my 6 and 8 year olds. I am thinking about just having my 8 year old finish mastering his facts (I don't think he is far off and should be able to finish this summer) and then go right into Saxon 5/4 for third grade at a pace he can handle. I will hold his hand a bit at the beginning and then let go. I like Ray's and S-U a lot but I find that they are reliant on me whereas counting (1-100 and understanding those numbers on an abacus and with base ten blocks) and skip counting to math facts to Saxon is much more independent more quickly and goes straight through high school. I don't think I will use Intermediate 3. The format is just too different. If we need to do the roadschooling thing I may rethink Saxon because of size. Money is an issue but I won't need anything else for Saxon for awhile since I have 6/5 already except maybe the tests and worksheets book. They now sell a separate copy of the Saxon math facts for $10 so I may pick those up for my younger two. I have some old sets from the 1st-3rd grade Saxon books but I am not sure they are complete.... But after EFL I may have totally new revelations....... Could you give us some input into how you use the flashcards and abacus? I am starting this adventure with my nearly 6 yo very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm still very interested in her ways of homeschooling, but in the months since those threads, I've been focusing most of my energies on laying the groundwork in terms of overcoming character issues (mostly mine), forming habits, and simplifying our routine. We've been using some of her approach for literature, but haven't started with arithmetic yet. This is partly because I'm not sure that the self-directed "pebbles + notebook" lessons would catch on with my little folks right now, as they're still constantly exposed to a plethora of toys, books, clutter, and educational doo-dads. In one of her magazine articles (which I'll try to dig up), EFL says emphatically that simplifiying the environment is THE most important part of education. Having too much is far worse than having nothing at all. She was writing at the beginning of the 20th century, when abundant material goods and a fast-paced life were starting to become the norm. If only I'd read her advice years ago, when my eldest was tiny! But I probably wouldn't have believed her, because all that stuff is just so bright and shiny, and just one more thing couldn't hurt, right? Live and learn... Have you read Kim John Payne's Simplicity Parenting? http://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Calmer-Happier/dp/0345507983/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429042258&sr=8-1&keywords=Simplicity+Parenting I read this when my oldest was little and am actually rereading it again as I am about to have our third with a different set of eyes. The biggest part of simplifying for me is we only have so much space. We have a two bedroom apartment with a large sunroom (playroom/learning area). We are about to have three children in this small home. We do not have a garage, attic, or basement. What you see is what we own. I honestly don't know if I'd want a bigger home at the moment because I know the temptation to fill the space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm still processing all of this. I think EFL would be rolling over in her grave to see us first talk textbooks when it so obvious she is NOT advocating the use of textbooks at all. But if we ARE going to want to just kinda sorta follow her instructions and DO want to use at least BITS of a textbook, as I am looking through what I have, the books that look the most helpful to me are Ray's, Eclectic Manual of Methods, and How to Tutor, because of all the tables they have in them. To fully do EFL, I really think I would need to compile a notebook of tables, to work through one at a time. I'd need to decide the order of tables beforehand instead of winging it, as this doesn't come all that naturally to me, at least not yet. The method resonates with me, and I have been using notebooking of tables for awhile, but I still don't feel so proficient at teaching them, that I don't need a guide. I think that if someone were to basically do EFL for the BULK of their math, and then just teach a BIT of algorithms with the general idea of neoclassical grammar stage rote memory and not even try to explain, but then in 5/6th grade pull it all together in the logic stage with some great success. In the past this was exactly what was done in 5th grade with either Saxon 54 first edition or Ray's Practical Arithmetic following Beechick's instructions. Both books start with a complete review, focus on vocabulary, and expect this to maybe be the first book that a student really buckles down with and READS and tackles the algorithms. So in the past year, I kind of sneered at Beechick's Ray's guide, but I'm looking at it with new eyes, after reading EFL. I wouldn't follow it exactly, but it's more parallel to EFL than anything else. And for ME, Ray's can be shipped with Amazon prime, that is a biggy for ME. And also I can print pages for more transient students that I don't expect to continue long enough to need to invest in a book for them. And I like to do Waldorf INSPIRED math pages. I find full out Waldorf to be a huge waste of time and money, but I do use bits of it. And it's nice that Waldorf and EFL both have a similar scope and sequence. So, I'm going to brush up a bit on some of my Waldorf math. I think EFL's no nonsense Catholic approach can be a balance to anyone feeling overly pulled to modern Waldorf's commercialism and it's focus on anthroposophy. Asking yourself, "Would EFL have used/approved of this idea?" might be helpful. It will be interesting to see what I think a year from now, after I have had time to digest all this. I don't necessarily want to hand a textbook to my son, but need a guide for myself. I think this is exactly what you are doing with your own efforts. My plan at the moment is to use some Waldorf ideas to do a main lesson style notebook for numbers 1-12 or so. We'll see how this goes. Then we can move on to more counting and eventually try the pebble skip counting ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Right now I am using number cards (just from the grocery store with numbers 1-100 on them) and I picked out five cards and had her show me on an abacus what that number looks like. She has to read the number to me first, but I was already pretty confident she could do that because she used to copy the 100 number chart and read it to me. And I am pretty sure I have had her read the cards to me in the past as well. But I wanted to make sure she understood what that looked like visually. When we finish doing them with an abacus I will have her do them with base ten blocks to see it another way. She is also beginning math flash cards with basic addition and subtraction. We are using the Saxon cards so the inverse is on the back. We are going really slowly with this. In my experience with my third and fourth children so far, copying and reading a 100 number chart over and over in preschool was very helpful. I am going to do it with my poor neglected 5 year old (who is still technically in preschool until the fall). I only have them do about 10 numbers at a time at first and then they usually choose to do more each day until they have worked up to doing the whole thing. We sing skip counting songs and when I know they can recognize all the numbers from 1-100 I have them write them out and sing them. This makes multiplication and patterns easier, though if you don't do enough rote drill of the facts they end up using it as a crutch. Because of this I have mixed feelings about skip counting by song, but I also know that there have been many times where knowing those has been so beneficial and useful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 I don't think it's practical for me to go textbook free with this, at least at this point, with my current teacher skills. I don't think I'm prepared to do that yet. As for needing toys, that's not a problem, here. Not because my adults don't like toys and don't have short attentions spans, but because they understand just what I think it is that EFL is aiming for. The student is supposed to interact with REAL math, just like they interact with REAL nature, and REAL stories. Just like they want me to teach them how to write a story and then get out of the way so they can write a similar one, they have enjoyed math lessons that like those described in EFL. And like with nature study where I teach them to observe and teach them a few facts about common living things and then they go aout and interact with nature without me. Page 75 about the reading a previously memorized poem: How often a liitle child says, "Please let me alone; I can read this by myself." I think I get what she is trying to accomplish. I still need nature guides. I still need story writing ideas. I still need more math helps than just the EFL book. I do need nothing but the EFL guide to do the poetry reading thing, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Are pages 22-23 and 25-26 on number work in Hoenshel's Language Lessons helpful at all? https://archive.org/details/hoenshelslangua00hoengoog Is this free African Waldorf math of any use? http://www.entwicklungshilfe3.de/media/Bilder_ZSE/UEber_Uns_Dateien/Grundlagentexte/MATHEMATICS_GRADES_1_2_TRAINING_MANUAL.pdf I am not sure if the number work would be helpful at this point. If doing EFL would we introduce algorithms, even if they are as gentle as stories this early? Could this be done with a table of algorithms and have the child make a progressive story? The African Waldorf does have some ideas in it that could be helpful. I printed pages 45-53 to help guide me as we do some "math journal" this summer. I know in your Public Domain Curriculum you teach the tally marks first. Is there a reason you do this other a lot of children this age have undeveloped fine motor skills? I like the idea of introducing the Roman Numberals. These seem like they would be similar to learning tally marks. This main lesson block would be short. I assume it would only take us two weeks to complete 1-10 if we focus on one number per day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 I only see the need to use tally marks if slanted cursive numbers is being taught. Roman numerals would be another alternative, to trying to teach slanted cursive numerals in K. I do NOT believe in teaching vertical numbers alongside slanted cursive letters. Numbers and letters need to be the same slant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Carrying in addition and subtraction are easy enough to teach with stories, but when I teach little ones or severely delayed adults long division, I don't try and explain it as I'm teaching it; that makes it worse for them. It's like teaching beginners bread baking. Until they have handles dough and seen it rise, I don't talk about yeast. It's too much information at once and it doesn't mean anything yet. Once they have successfully baked a couple loaves of French bread we talk more and more about yeast. I don't talk about how yeast reacts to milk until we make a loaf with milk. I don't talk about eggs and yeast until we make our first challah. I believe in the neoclassical idea that it's okay to just have grammar stage students memorize without fully understanding. I believe in SOME cookbook math, just like I believe in SOME cookbook cooking. Sometimes doing without understanding is enough and is okay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm getting these threads mixed up. I think it was another thread, where I said the modern labels for this type of work is "math labs", "math journaling" and "math drill". There are publishers making quite a bit of money using vintage ideas but complicating them and selling pieces of things that are as far removed from real life as possible. Not only is this wastefull, but it removes the topic from daily life so it's difficult for the student to apply to real life, or recreate during play time. When I do science labs, I don't like to use laboratory equipment, because when the lab is over the student stops thinking about the lesson. When we do labs with real life stuff, the student often keeps playing with the idea, sometimes even YEARS later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Stm4him, "real" Waldorf schools teach anthroposophy. "Waldorf inspired" schools might not teach anthroposophy. Most Christians are not comfortable with having that taught to their children. Just like modern Montessori, modern Waldorf has become very commercialized and over complicated. It's big business. These African and Christian friendly Waldorf pdfs are free and quite good. They are not typical of "real" American Waldorf. I think Pen is our resident expert on "real" American Waldorf. http://www.entwicklungshilfe3.de/spenderinnen/download/ Waldorf Essentials is written by a Mormon mom. http://waldorfessentials.com Oak Meadow is Waldorf inspired and attempts to be more Christian friendly. I think children who come from Waldorf homes will do better in Waldorf schools than children from families that have not adopted a Waldorf lifestyle. If a family does not enjoy rhythm and a slower and more natural lifestyle, they will struggle to enjoy or understand the school. Stm4him, you really should start a new thread. It's been awhile since people talked Waldorf and I think a thread would be welcome. You will also get more responses than just having it tucked away here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I don't even know what anthroposophy is.....lol. I will soon start another thread. I just finished chapter 4 and I can already say that without having even read her methods yet, but just her convictions about home schooling, this is one of my favorite books ever. I think it is one of the best books I've ever read on WHY people should homeschool. Quick thoughts on science labs: I don't enjoy science and I don't usually see the point of getting out a bunch of equipment to do science experiments or demonstrations that answer questions we haven't asked. It doesn't matter to me if those materials are around the house or real science lab equipment, though I do think that there is something special about real science equipment and I think lots of kids would enjoy using it if they knew how it works. I do think it would be interesting, even to me, to observe others on video doing science experiments and then repeating at home the ones that catch our interest especially and then naturally expanding on those through experimentations of our own (or the child's own). This might inspire real research into a topic. So I am interested in science videos of labs that are interesting. The only ones I know of are from SonLight. Hunter, is there somewhere where you explain the difference between slant cursive in theory and vertical cursive? I don't get why it matters so much. We use vertical cursive because we used Cursive First and I find it similar to the cursive taught in the EMoM (though the capitals are a little different). And I don't see how tally marks are tied to either......maybe I'm missing some major thread that went on about this topic. I see you mention it a lot and I feel like I'm supposed to understand what you are talking about but I don't..... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I am focusing on arithmetic at the moment, but want to read her entire book. One subject at a time though. I am printing the Eclectic Manual of Methods Chapter 9 on Arithmetic First Year at the moment and will read that once the littles are in bed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Whichever slant you use, it's important that you maintain the slant at all times, even numbers. For LD lefties, or for people switching back and forth between cursive and vertical manuscript, vertical cursive can be much easier than slanted cursive. Slanted cursive was the norm for a couple hundred years until the late 1800s when some educators switched to vertical cursive. The revised McGuffey's switched to vertical. For the most part vertical cursive was pretty short-lived in the USA public schools and was quickly replaced with vertical manuscript followed by 3rd grade slanted cursive, which really is a confusing combination. A sample from one of my students of Spalding vertical cursive, but with manuscript uppercase. It's a lesson from How to Tutor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Don Potter slanted cursive. http://donpotter.net/pdf/af_cursive.pdf French cursive is vertical http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/521733-french-cursive-handwriting/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I just read the poetry chapter and I liked it a lot. We used to memorize poetry from Andrew Pudewa's Linguistic Development Through Poetry Memorization. It was cute to see my kids lined up every day reciting poetry and especially to see my 4 year old recite My Shadow in front of his little co-op class. I have kind of let the ball drop in general on memorization and I need to figure out how to get it back into our day. I sometimes thought Pudewa's selections to be done more out of humor or interest than beauty or how classic they were, but it was nice to have a selection all put together. And I worried they were missing out on other poems so I began reading a page of poetry each day, usually twice so that we could read it once, discuss the meaning, and hear it again. Even though I enjoy Pudewa's voice, I am not sure it was the best example of presentation on the cds. I think I do an ok job but there are some poems and words I am not sure about. I also wonder at times if having them choose the poem to memorize would be more motivating...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 A lot of the poetry suggestions could be used with the Bible and with hymns. Looking back, I think my sister with slight LDs only learned to read because of rereading previously memorized scripture and reading along in hymns books as we sang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I guess I don't care much about how much or little they slant the letters. I'm sure some of my kiddos slant more than others. What I care about is that they start at the baseline for all lowercase letters, that it is legible, and that they form the letters with the strokes in the proper order for speed purposes. One could nitpick all day about slant. I do also care if their letters are too skinny or too fat, but only when it is extremely obvious. I do care that their words and letters sit on the lines as they should. And I don't find it necessary to put in all the extra loops, but I have at times shown them that there are other ways to make the letters if they prefer because they come across other ways of making the letters in books they see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I finished the teaching English chapter. I'm trying to figure out her major points. Delay formal grammar study until age ten. Lots of copying of excellent works. Reading hard things with a dictionary next to you. Rereading passages to children and having them try to read themselves passages that they have memorized. Not focusing more on rapid, accurate oral reading than meaning. Teaching children to do oral narrations, writing the best sentences on the board, and having children copy them to teach composition. What else? I look forward to reading about spelling tomorrow..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 I guess I don't care much about how much or little they slant the letters. I'm sure some of my kiddos slant more than others. What I care about is that they start at the baseline for all lowercase letters, that it is legible, and that they form the letters with the strokes in the proper order for speed purposes. One could nitpick all day about slant. I do also care if their letters are too skinny or too fat, but only when it is extremely obvious. I do care that their words and letters sit on the lines as they should. And I don't find it necessary to put in all the extra loops, but I have at times shown them that there are other ways to make the letters if they prefer because they come across other ways of making the letters in books they see.It's not about WHICH slant; it's about CONSISTENCY of slant. Whichever slant is chosen, it must be maintained ALL the time, or you will have a mess. Skinny letters are usually seen in slanted cursive and fat ones in vertical. It's not about whether they are porposely skinny or fat. Slanted cursive is usually a combination of strokes, not joined ball and stick, and those joined strokes produce a differently shaped letter. Don Potter's joined strokes are an entire different system than Spalding's joined ball and stick. Don Potter is NOT just slanted Spalding!! And EFL has got a whole new thing going on that I have never seen. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 There is a lot in Strayer-Upton that EFL would skip, but there are pages in book 1 that would assist a teacher trying to implement EFL. Chapter 2 includes pages for the numbers 2-5. Chapter 3 includes pages for the numbers 6-9. Chapter 4 includes pages for the numbers 10-12. There is the same kind of skip counting, easy fractions, and tables for multiplication and division described in EFL. For reference, chapters 1-3 are considered 3rd grade/age 8. Chapter 4 would be considered 4th grade age 9. Chapter 5 is the second half of 4th grade, where SOME students MIGHT be turning 10, the age that EFL says that a textbook can be started and long division taught. Chapter 5 introduces long division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I just read the first chapter on Arithmetic in the Eclectic Manual of Methods. I think this text is in line with a lot of EFL. For example it recommends that NO book be used in primary class. Also the work is oral and not written with the use of objects. They even specifically mention pebbles. This text mentions the object lesson. I assume this just means teaching with objects or our modern word manipulatives. They really make a point to say that children must be able to recognize the group as a whole without counting by ones. As I am contemplating a summer math block that is a Waldorf inspired quality of numbers main lesson book, I wonder if I should have my son draw pictures of these groups in his math journal. Not only a group of three for instance like the clover, but all possible combinations and separations. Perhaps there are some flashcards that work for this method until rapid accuracy is acheived. Page 110 had me a bit worried because it says, "...once forms the habit of counting by ones in order to answer such a question as, "How many blocks in this group?" it will be almost impossible to correct his error. This is something I've had my son do. We have not done a lot of formal lessons though so perhaps with drill and proper instruction we can overcome this. This text does do addition and subtration together and then later moves on to multiplication and division. EFL goes from counting to skip counting, but is skip counting really the same as multiplication or could it just be another form of addition that can later be explained as multiplication? After this I got a bit confused with terms concrete digital numbers and abstract digital numbers. Then they provide a good table for early algorithms. This could be something that is put into the math journal even according to EFL. My biggest issue with the children writing this table would be if there handwriting was neat and clear. I would just continue this as oral drill if handwriting was not sucessful yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 There is a lot in Strayer-Upton that EFL would skip, but there are pages in book 1 that would assist a teacher trying to implement EFL. Chapter 2 includes pages for the numbers 2-5. Chapter 3 includes pages for the numbers 6-9. Chapter 4 includes pages for the numbers 10-12. There is the same kind of skip counting, easy fractions, and tables for multiplication and division described in EFL. For reference, chapters 1-3 are considered 3rd grade/age 8. Chapter 4 would be considered 4th grade age 9. Chapter 5 is the second half of 4th grade, where SOME students MIGHT be turning 10, the age that EFL says that a textbook can be started and long division taught. Chapter 5 introduces long division. Information that would help someone implement this from the beginning or only information that would help after counting/skip counting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Information that would help someone implement this from the beginning or only information that would help after counting/skip counting? Strayer-Upton would be for after counting to 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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