Miss Marple Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Son is graduating with an ME. He is top in his class at large state uni. Looks fantastic on paper, is somewhat socially awkward. He has been accepted to graduate school in a top 10 engineering school. He has until the 15th to accept or decline. I talked with him last night about his plans. He says that if he wants to live the graduate student life, the place is excellent, but he is tired and just wants to do something else. He has been heavily involved with the race team (building formula cars) which has added to his resume but taken away from his life. He claims to have stayed in the lab for 48 house last week and slept there a few of those. He is tired of being away from home, tired of not having a social life due to the deadline constraints of senior year. He did 2 summer internships but not in ME...they involved working on some patent designs for a professor friend of ours. He loved it and learned a lot. He is sick of ME right now. He has not received any offers for employment but I believe that is because he has been too selective in his application process. He is angry, disappointed, hurt, and so physically tired. He thinks something is wrong with himself. He has friends who have jobs awaiting them, but they all did internships in their field. I have always felt that ME was not what he would enjoy. This son has so much intellectual talent as well as varied interests. His ideal job would be to work with a start-up and take it to production. However, no one is interested in hiring a newly out of college with no experience person for that. He's to the point that he just wants to be done and make some money or do something different. I can understand that. He feels that the pay he would get as a starting ME is not equitable to the amount of time he has suffered (poor fella - reality bites) Last night I just listened to my hurting son and offered options: he can take time off and go to Capernwray Bible school in the UK where his brother did a year. He did 2 months there in his senior year and loved it and was disappointed that he didn't do a full year. He can seek to defer entry into the graduate program, he can try to get an engineering co-op (post-graduate)...there are lots of ways to go. He liked the idea of going to Capernwray best. I noticed a distinct growth in his brother when he returned from there...a self-confidence that was not present before. I think this son needs a healthy dose of comfort, rest, and friendship. Gah! It's so hard to know what to recommend! I don't care if he's the local trash man as long as he's happy and good. But he wants to make his mark on the world :) I wish he were 5 years old again - I could fix anything then. Any advice? UPDATE: Today is the deadline to answer yes/no to the grad school offer. DS has asked for a year long deferral and they have granted that :) I talked with him on the phone yesterday and he sounded like a different kid. He is upbeat and excited about what the next year holds. Right now he is the lead senior on the race team and they have lots of deadlines to get the car ready for competition in Michigan and Lincoln later this spring. In addition, he is coordinating "Parents Day" which is this weekend...he has to line up the speakers, order the food, etc. On top of this he has the usual senior year stuff. I think the idea of making a decision that would impact him for the next 2 years was just too much to add to his plate. I've fowarded the information and advice you all have given him and I think it's made him feel more "normal". Thank you all! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Co-op would be a good choice too. My dh worked a co-op year between his Jr. and Sr. years. He said otherwise he wouldn't have finished. Engineering courses are THAT demanding. From my dh's co-op experience, he got his first job offer. So I say, co-op or defer grad school to go to Bible College just for a rest. BTW, my dh graduated with his EIT cert. and yes, it is demoralizing to see the pitiful pay. However, working 2 yrs under a licensed PE allows you to sit for the exam. So maybe your son can see that working under a PE is its own sort of grad school, until you get enough work experience to sit for the PE exam. BTW, my dh doesn't have a Masters, and he's done okay in his field. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*LC Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 They are all great options, so he can't go wrong. It is just a matter of picking one. Good luck while you listen. I have found I have one kid, at least, who just needs to talk through the issues/problems to see what is the right choice. I think finding out if he can defer grad school is the necessary first step in figuring out what to do after graduation. . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I like the Capernwray option because there will not easily be another time in his life where he can take an year to concentrate on building his faith. Work and school will always be there. It sounds like he is weary and Capernwray will feed his soul. Can he defer his graduate school admission for a year? That way, he will still have that option open to him when he is finished with Bible school. After he gets a little bit reseted, he will be able to consider his other options a bit more clearly, I think. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenda in MA Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Cynthia, It sounds like you've given him some good advice/options. I can really relate to this -- it is how I felt when I finished undergrad. I had job offers, but they weren't where prospective dh was, and my only option in that area was grad school. I reluctantly went to grad school, but I was so burned out, it was really, really tough. Back then, I don't even know if deferral was an option. If it was, I wasn't aware of it. If you think your son would be interested in grad school eventually, and if they would accept a deferral, I'd say let him go to the Bible school for a year to decompress. Is there a chance he might be able to get an ME-related summer job either with a professor or in industry and then go to the Bible college in the fall? I also liked the idea of the co-op job -- defer the grad school, do the cop-op to test-drive a job in that field, and then choose to either work or go to grad school in a year. So many options. I think most students are just soooo tired this time of year. I can even hear it in my college freshman, and he still has 3 years to go.... Best wishes to all of you! Brenda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Bible Schools sounds like a great option in his season of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 ...His ideal job would be to work with a start-up and take it to production. However, no one is interested in hiring a newly out of college with no experience person for that... Are you sure about that? The startups I am familiar hire new college grads because they are cheap. Startups have no money, usually. Also, they usually willing to do a variety of things. Experienced engineers from big company sometimes balk at doing the huge variety of work that every worker in a startup has to do. Nan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Could he be depressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Could he be depressed? Possibly, but I think it's more of a depression brought on by lack of sleep and not feeling appreciated. I don't think he could accomplish the amount of work he is putting out and keeping his grades up if he were clinically depressed. I *do* think it could go into that, though, and I'm watching closely. I truly think he needs some time to sleep, time to do nothing but build legos (he got the big Tumbler from Batman for his birthday and it's sitting on the dining room table), reconnect with old friends, and eat good quality food. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Are you sure about that? The startups I am familiar hire new college grads because they are cheap. Startups have no money, usually. Also, they usually willing to do a variety of things. Experienced engineers from big company sometimes balk at doing the huge variety of work that every worker in a startup has to do. Nan Nan, he may not be looking in the right places. If you have any suggestions on where to find something like this, he'd be forever grateful. He did some amazing work on patents with a professor friend and he was hoping she might have funding for a full time employee, but she's not quite there yet. She told me that he did what needed to be done in order to get a patent on their "item". And it was all based on his math skills and teaching himself what he needed to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Is ME mechanical engineering? Knowing nothing about it, my concern would be whether people would question the year off (in the sense of the skills getting rusty or outdated), so that's one thing I would try to ascertain. How soon would he have to decide about the bible college? School's out in a month or so, and I'd be reluctant for him to make a far-reaching decision that he might reconsider once he's done and has the chance to eat, sleep, and relax. I would probably want him to graduate, come home, and take a breather. He can gauge the local job market, even if he doesn't want to start right away. Of course, if he can take a year away without it affecting his future prospects, I certainly wouldn't blame him for doing that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Nan, he may not be looking in the right places. If you have any suggestions on where to find something like this, he'd be forever grateful. He did some amazing work on patents with a professor friend and he was hoping she might have funding for a full time employee, but she's not quite there yet. She told me that he did what needed to be done in order to get a patent on their "item". And it was all based on his math skills and teaching himself what he needed to know. My husband says where do you live? And he says that his companies all hire new grads but the do it by hiring them as coop or interns and then, if they like them, give them a huge raise in 5 or 6 months. He says to tell him to look for an internship and start there. I will ask about where to look. He is a consultant, so is involved with many biotech companies. He is an ME. No masters. Patent experience is good. My husband is always talking about patents. I,ll see if I can get more info from him tonight when he gets home. Nan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 PS - Transitions are exhausting and you son is already tired. I expect by the time he is out of school a few weeks, life will look a bit rosier. He,ll have done the work he needs to do to end his school year by then. This sort of decision on top of that work, at the end of the school year is probably a bit much to face. If he were mine, I,d tell him it is normal for nothing to sound good right now. I,d suggest deferring grad school and working for a year, and I,d try to discourage him from thinking new grads in start ups are entitled to regular engineering pay. Dream jobs often require a sacrificial period. He might get lucky, of course, but I would discourage the expectation and attitude because I think enthusiasm for a particular project is a more useful attitude for getting his foot in the door, judging from my husbands negotiations with the brilliant-but-not-particularly-realistic people who begin start-ups. Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Sleep is a beautiful thing at the end of the school year. We have engineering seniors in and out of our house. Some of them have plans all lined up for work or grad school others are exhausted and don't see any good options. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I tried and tried to get my dd to take a break the middle of college for a semester or two while she could...so much for that plan. I vote a year off. If he loved Bible school I would go that route. And pay to defer grad school so that option is open. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Cynthia- I asked my husband more about this. His knowledge is of biotech companies in our area. He says check Craig's list. He says they advertise on Craig's list for interns frequently. He says check with your engineering school. He says what state are you in? Some states, to encourage STEM majors and certain kinds of industry, have listings of internship positions. The state pays for the interns (or part). This makes start ups want to list their jobs on the site. Students or new grads go to the site and apply for specific companies. These jobs translate into full pay when the company gets more funding, usually. Or at that point, the grad has more experience and contacts and is hired as a regular engineer someplace else. My husband calls this the peanut butter phase. Everyone (except the people with the seed money and the rich crazy doctor with the idea) lives on peanut butter while the company gets going. One guy we know lived in the inventor,s basement during this phase. (He now has two houses, a boat, and a family. This stage doesn,t last forever.) A company can,t get money until they are a ways into the process. The peanut butter stage is the expanding the patent, designing the prototypes, research stage where a lot of the fun stuff happens. It sounds like the prof friend is at this stage. Can he get her to commit to hiring him as a full time engineer when she has the money, and meanwhile hire him as a full time intern? Is there enough work? The peanut butter stage ends when someone invests in the idea. More staff is hired. A workspace is found. Everyone knows that they have x amount of money which will, with luck and not too many setbacks, get the product far enough along that someone will want to invest more money in its further development, or the setup will resemble a company enough that a bigger company will buy it. At that point, there will be further restructuring. Engineers will be hired or payed off. The company may move. Everyone may work for free for a bit if there is a gap in the financing. One suggestion my husband made was to find out who does the investing in your area and go to them and say you are looking for an internship position. He also suggesting finding the small companies in your are and phoning them and asking if they want an intern. Start ups are fun but unstable. They lack funding at the beginning. There are gaps in the funding periodically. They move across the country forcing you to try to guess how successful they are going to be and whether to move with them or not. They collapse under you and leave you job hunting again. Only a few succeed. My husband has worked in start ups his whole career except for one time when he stuck with a successful one for a number of years and ran the research and development department. The pay was fantastic but the job was all paperwork, meetings, and dealing with problem employees. He quit and went back to the fun, less lucrative stage. He is not paid for all his work because not everyone can pay him. He lives with his phone and gets calls at weird hours because people in the medical industry work round the clock. He has had things stuffed down his nose, has tested his blood sugar five times a day while they tried to figure out how to do it painlessly, has lived for days with things stuck to his skin while they tested adhesives, ... I never know if vacation will really happen. (We,ve been extraordinarily lucky.) He could be unemployed next week. But it is seldom boring. : ) Nan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Nan, thank you so much for taking the time to help us. I'll forward this to my son and see what he thinks. Our friend is awaiting more funding - basically she's just about broke. She has been contacted by one large computer company...the product has the potential to span many industries. She is talking with some venture capital groups, and sending out product for testing to another lab for confirmation of results. It's been a lot of fun watching this take shape from an idea to a product. I can see why my son is interested in this sort of thing. We live in the oil/gas area (Oklahoma) and ds has absolutely no interest in that which makes things more difficult. He isn't particularly interested in aerospace either which seems to be prevalent here. He is interested in Tesla, SpaceX, high end race cars, etc. And he is interested in the financial world. He has so many interests that I think he is having trouble seeing himself doing just one thing for a period of time. Thanks again, you've been a great help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Well, an engineer interested in finance could be very useful to a startup. Somebody, after all, has to talk the people with the money into investing in the startup. A startup has a much better chance of succeeding if this person is an engineer, not just a business person, because business people tend to promise the investors things that the engineers are unable to deliver, causing the investors to bail out when the company fails to hit the milestones for the next half of the financing. Besides, when your company consists of just a few people, everyone has to wear multiple hats. Many interests is good. : ) He probably needs to settle for little pay and a less than ideal project to start though. And possibly move to wherever his interests are being developed. There are only a few places in the country we can live. This is often true of careers. Tell him startup work shifts constantly and the first job probably won,t last long so it needn't,t be ideal. Best of luck to him! Sorry about all the autocorrect errors. Nan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Oh, and tell him you get to move up FAST with start ups because you get a wide variety of experiences and there are fewer people between the bottom and the top, also making it ok to start low or not quite where you want to be, interest wise. Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Oh, and tell him you get to move up FAST with start ups because you get a wide variety of experiences and there are fewer people between the bottom and the top, also making it ok to start low or not quite where you want to be, interest wise. Nan I know that would appeal to him. He has always been ahead of the pack intellectually so it's hard for him to think of starting at the bottom and slowly climbing the corporate ladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I know that would appeal to him. He has always been ahead of the pack intellectually so it's hard for him to think of starting at the bottom and slowly climbing the corporate ladder. I hope you can gently tell him that, even if he works in a small company, he will be working with people of a lot of different backgrounds, many of whom will be intellectually smarter than he is. Intellectual pride is something that can be difficult to get over, but the key to being successful in any company is to do good work and work hard. It won't matter how smart he is if he doesn't produce. Not only that, companies don't give accolades for being smart, but they do give them for achieving the company's goals (not his personal goals). He will only be promoted when it benefits the company to give him a promotion. In fact, he may earn a promotion in terms of talent, contribution and revenue generated years before the company recognizes him with a promotion. He also needs to think about intellectual property rights, especially if he works with a start up. Most large companies retain the intellectual property rights on employee's work. If he works with a start up, he needs to clarify this in advance because he may not end up "owning" any of his ideas, much less any patents (a person can be an individual inventor or part of a group of inventors, but the rights belong to the company they work for). Intellectual property rights are a 21st century reality and in his field he needs to know where he stands with his employer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I hope you can gently tell him that, even if he works in a small company, he will be working with people of a lot of different backgrounds, many of whom will be intellectually smarter than he is. Intellectual pride is something that can be difficult to get over, but the key to being successful in any company is to do good work and work hard. It won't matter how smart he is if he doesn't produce. Not only that, companies don't give accolades for being smart, but they do give them for achieving the company's goals (not his personal goals). He will only be promoted when it benefits the company to give him a promotion. In fact, he may earn a promotion in terms of talent, contribution and revenue generated years before the company recognizes him with a promotion. He also needs to think about intellectual property rights, especially if he works with a start up. Most large companies retain the intellectual property rights on employee's work. If he works with a start up, he needs to clarify this in advance because he may not end up "owning" any of his ideas, much less any patents (a person can be an individual inventor or part of a group of inventors, but the rights belong to the company they work for). Intellectual property rights are a 21st century reality and in his field he needs to know where he stands with his employer. Yes, I think this is something he needs to get a handle on. His work with the race team for the past 4 years, though, has been helpful with that I think. And his work with our professor friend has introduced him to the field of patents, property rights, and non-disclosure contracts. We've had some rather cryptic conversations...in which I tend to ask questions he cannot answer due to being bound by those non-disclosures lol. I think he just needs to start somewhere and then fine tune his interests. Right now he's looking at the job market like a great list of restaurants (he's a foodie). There are so many things he likes and would be interested in doing that it's hard to make a decision. But he needs to dive in somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The patent/intellectual properties thing is something to watch out for but there are wats around that. At the peanut butter stage it is possible to get your name on patents. That and stock options are what make up for the lack of pay. When you have experience that a startup wants, you can negotiate to be able to keep your patents. That all comes later, usually, when you are older, and may require that you contribute to the initial funding. Non-disclosures are inconvenient. (I make shot in the dark suggestions too.) Not getting to keep your inventions is annoying but my husband says that ideas are a dime a dozen and useless unless they come with money and lots of hard work. The real kicker is the non-compete contract. This may keep you from being able to use your experience directly in the next job, which can be a problem when you switch jobs every few years. Techwife is right on about intellectual pride and the key to succeeding. My husband prefers to hire state uni kids because they are less likely to balk at the grunt work. On the other hand, rather than encourage our brightish youngest to go to our state school, we are paying a ton to send him to a school where he has to work very hard just to pass his engineering classes in an effort to avoid the intellectual snobbery trap it is so very easy for these kids to fall into. Nan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The patent/intellectual properties thing is something to watch out for but there are wats around that. At the peanut butter stage it is possible to get your name on patents. That and stock options are what make up for the lack of pay. When you have experience that a startup wants, you can negotiate to be able to keep your patents. There is a difference between having your name on a patent as an inventor and having the rights to the patent. My husband has his name on 20+ patents, but has the rights to none of them - they all belong to the company he works for. He does get a "patent bonus" when a patent is granted (which is a process that can take quite a while), but it is nowhere near the potential company income for some of the patents. It's a trade off - in exchange for steady employment (and the paycheck), access to company resources, and the fact that he doesn't have to outlay any money for the development of the patent (the company pays all attorney fees, patent search fees, filing fees, development, production, promotion costs, etc.) - the company earns the profit. In truth, should a patent come into production, the company is the one bearing the risk. Additionally, keep in mind that stock options for a company that no longer exists are worthless and most start-ups fail. Stock options cost a company nothing beyond the legal costs of granting them, so it's a common form of compensation that in the end, may end up of benefit to no one. Stock options are really worth nothing until/unless a company goes public. They are especially chancy if there is no venture capital backing the company. I think of stock options for start ups as "imaginary money." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 There is a difference between having your name on a patent as an inventor and having the rights to the patent. My husband has his name on 20+ patents, but has the rights to none of them - they all belong to the company he works for. He does get a "patent bonus" when a patent is granted (which is a process that can take quite a while), but it is nowhere near the potential company income for some of the patents. It's a trade off - in exchange for steady employment (and the paycheck), access to company resources, and the fact that he doesn't have to outlay any money for the development of the patent (the company pays all attorney fees, patent search fees, filing fees, development, production, promotion costs, etc.) - the company earns the profit. In truth, should a patent come into production, the company is the one bearing the risk. Additionally, keep in mind that stock options for a company that no longer exists are worthless and most start-ups fail. Stock options cost a company nothing beyond the legal costs of granting them, so it's a common form of compensation that in the end, may end up of benefit to no one. Stock options are really worth nothing until/unless a company goes public. They are especially chancy if there is no venture capital backing the company. I think of stock options for start ups as "imaginary money." Perhaps we,ve just gotten lucky. : ) I suppose we,ve paid for our luck with free work, insecurity, and some heartache. In general, I,d say this was sound advice. The top usually manipulates stock so that it is diluted for everyone but themselves into, say, a nice camping vacation rather than a house or a retirement fund, unfortunately. Or they break their word. My husband and friends have tinkered with other investment/company structures but usually something happens - deaths or divorces or bad choices of presidents or something. Sometimes things work out, though. The guys at the top often are willing to sell out a friend, move every few years, travel so much they wind up with distressed families, and work 24/7, so we don,t mind. Aim for a living and some fun and some contributions to the world. : ) You don,t have to have all this figured out at the beginning of your life. Nan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bassoon Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 You don,t have to have all this figured out at the beginning of your life. (Hope it's ok that I chime in here) This is what's been so hard for my dd - before her internship was lined up, I think she felt like she had to have her whole life figured out once she graduated. You know - the path has always been relatively clear for her. She's been pretty focused for a long time, on getting an Arts Admin degree and minoring in Dance. She just couldn't figure out what the rest of her life would look like, when it's been so "planned" up until this point. It's hard to remind this type-A, hyper-over-achiever that she can just take the next step, and watch to see what unfolds. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 (Hope it's ok that I chime in here) This is what's been so hard for my dd - before her internship was lined up, I think she felt like she had to have her whole life figured out once she graduated. You know - the path has always been relatively clear for her. She's been pretty focused for a long time, on getting an Arts Admin degree and minoring in Dance. She just couldn't figure out what the rest of her life would look like, when it's been so "planned" up until this point. It's hard to remind this type-A, hyper-over-achiever that she can just take the next step, and watch to see what unfolds. That is a really good point. Transitions are hard for my children. I will have to keep this in mind. Put together with the smorgasbord idea of Cynthia's and the general stress and exhaustion, it could explain a lot of the frozen feeling and paralyzation we,ve seen. Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I know that would appeal to him. He has always been ahead of the pack intellectually so it's hard for him to think of starting at the bottom and slowly climbing the corporate ladder. I know....This thought process is not uncommon in new engineering grads, but it does grate on folks in the workplace. As much as he knows, as much experience that he has, he really needs to be open to others and have an approachable, interested, pleasant demeanor. Remember that even those people who aren't college educated engineers have a vast storehouse of knowledge that your boy can mine if he approaches them correctly. My dh works at a utiility. There are mechanics and other blue collar workers who have been working there for 30 years. My dh learned up front when he started there that if he was respectful of their knowledge, he could learn lots from them and they would "have his back" so to speak. My dh is fond of saying that all the book-learning in the world doesn't mean a hill of beans until you can translate it into practical knowledge (your son is probably ahead of the game with his hands on racecar stuff.) Your son is like many engineering grads that he's had his eyes on the prize for so long, probably told himself that he will start living well once he graduated and now, faced with the realities of starting out, he feels a bit demoralized. I'm just speaking in generalizations here. I don't know your son at all. You are probably right that he needs rest and good food for a few weeks to make this decision. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*LC Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I'm so glad to read he received a deferral. He has too much going on right now to think about long-term plans. Good luck to him in his races. Since he is interested in cars, has he looked at the sae international site for jobs or internships? http://careercenter.sae.org/home/index.cfm?site_id=8479 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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