FYI: Free college in Germany

[MarkT]

This was quite interesting.

<http://www.marketplace.org/topics/education/learning-curve/american-students-head-germany-free-college>

 

hopefully Marketplace doesn't do April fools jokes.

 

 

 

[mom2bee]

Nope, not an April Fools joke. I've read about this before on another site and since then I've seriously considered learning German and moving overseas.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah I'm sad I can't talk my kids into it.  : (

 

 

[lmrich]

Can I go?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Can I go?

 

I don't see why not.

 

Your family might miss you.  : )

[regentrude]

If anybody is seriously interested, admissions requirements can be found on the website of the DAAD:

https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/voraussetzungen/en/6017-admission-requirements/?id=75&ebene=3

 

This is the first page, NOT a complete list of requirements. There is a series of questions you need to click through, where they ask for test scores etc.

 

[Laura Corin]

7 Countries where Americans can study at Universities for free (or almost free)

 

I taught at Paris III university (Sorbonne Nouvelle).  I don't know if things have changed, but it was extremely crowded at the beginning of the year, with insufficient seating for all the students and a really chaotic feel.  By half way through the first term, the numbers had dropped - presumably the people who couldn't cope with the chaos just left.  Essentially, anyone who could pass the Bac (school leaving exam) had a place at university, so the classes were a madhouse.

 

It's very worthwhile finding out what the assumptions are for how students will be treated/how courses will be organised.  For example, UK students are expected to be much more self-starting and organised than those in the US (according to a friend who has taught in both the US and the UK).  In the UK, you will often be expected to do a lot of independent absorbing of information and personal research, then grades may be based on final exams (in my case, exams taken at the end of my final year).  I never had a quiz in all the time I went to university: it was up to me to learn what was needed.

 

Just to say: different countries have different systems and expectations, especially if one is going as a three/four year student, rather than just for an exchange term/year.

[regentrude]

It's very worthwhile finding out what the assumptions are for how students will be treated/how courses will be organised.  For example, UK students are expected to be much more self-starting and organised than those in the US (according to a friend who has taught in both the US and the UK).  In the UK, you will often be expected to do a lot of independent absorbing of information and personal research, then grades may be based on final exams (in my case, exams taken at the end of my final year).  I never had a quiz in all the time I went to university: it was up to me to learn what was needed.

 

Just to say: different countries have different systems and expectations, especially if one is going as a three/four year student, rather than just for an exchange term/year.

 

Very good point. We never had graded homework or quizzes - the entire grade hinged on a comprehensive final at the end of the semester, and the final transcript had only three grades from comprehensive orals over the material of 8 semesters (theoretical and experimental physics) and 5 semesters of math, respectively.

I shudder to think how my students would perform without the handholding and scaffolding American colleges provide.

 

Some things have become more schooly with the adoption of the stupid Bologna protocol... to the big detriment to the German university system...

But even now, students are expected to me much more independent. You won't have a prof take attendance and send you a reminder that you missed too many classes... they will just let you fail if you don't put in the work, because the student is not a paying customer who must be kept happy so the school does not lose revenue.

[raptor_dad]

They require a diploma and don't accept GEDs. Given that homeschooling is illegal in Germany, I can't imagine they are going to accept homeschool diplomas. Maybe I'm wrong... but definitely something to look into.

 

 

 

[Matryoshka]

I think this would be well-nigh impossible for a homeschooler to do right out of high school. 

 

I say this as someone who has known about this for a while and thought about it very seriously, as my dds do speak German quite well.

 

They will not accept a homeschool diploma, nor a GED.  They require a battery of AP exams, and they will not accept even high AP exam scores that are not in conjunction with an in-person AP class - so no self-studying, no online AP classes.  One of my dds would love to go live in Europe (and she got a 5 on the German AP) - she was in ps for 9th and 10th, and I told her when she came home again this year that this would probably preclude her going right to University in Europe right out of high school, and definitely preclude that option for Germany (I have looked into other countries less than Germany, so it could be there are other countries with less stringent rules).

 

Another thing to think about is what Laura touched on - the structure is very, very different from the US.  Since it's free, pretty much anyone who passes the qualifications is let in, and then they sort it out by flunking out the people who don't cut it.  Since students aren't paying tuition, there is exactly zero incentive to keep on students who can't make it. German society has lots of other paths than University for young adults, so it's not catastrophic there if you don't go.  There is pretty much no hand-holding.  Pretty much no dorms or cafeterias - you find your own apartment, cook your own food.  I'm not sure if this has changed, but I believe in many/most courses it used to be that rather than being handed an textbook or an assigned list of books and readings, the topics to be learned were given, and the students had to figure out what books to read to cover the material.

 

I'm not sure I'd even want to throw an American kid right into that out of our very different system (and it would have to be out of our system - there really is no way a German university will accept a homeschooled high school student right out of high school).

 

My dd is still considering it, though, she'll just do 1-2 years at a US university and then think about transferring if she's still interested.  I think that's the path if you really want to do it as a homeschooler.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I would disagree about the dorms and cafeterias. The university I studied at had lots of student housing. All single rooms and quite affordable too. Unlike in the US, the cafeterias were all on campus. So we would usually have a small breakfast and a light dinner at home, but a big cheap subsidized lunch at school. It worked out just fine.

[Matryoshka]

I would disagree about the dorms and cafeterias. The university I studied at had lots of student housing. All single rooms and quite affordable too.

Was that in Germany?  Student housing also =/ dorm.  The student housing I'm more familiar with in Europe is more similar to graduate student housing in the US - apartments, not dorms, so still much more independent.  Also, I was under the impression that what student housing there was was much more limited there - not like here where it's not just usual but often mandatory that all freshmen live in the dorms.

 

But maybe that's changing over there? - they're changing other things to be more "US-like" - cutting high school to only 12 grades, changing the names of the technical Fachhochschulen to "Universities" rather than having that name reserved only for Universities of Arts and Sciences.

 

Unlike in the US, the cafeterias were all on campus. So we would usually have a small breakfast and a light dinner at home, but a big cheap subsidized lunch at school. It worked out just fine.

 

 

At the US university I went to all the cafeterias were on campus - isn't that the norm?  I've never heard of an off-campus cafeteria in the US, but maybe in some of the urban campuses?

 

(I ETA'd for clarity now that I'm not on my phone)

[Laura in CA]

Agreeing that it's not for everyone :-)

The article in the OP (I think -- or a later post) talks about homesickness, for example. My son -- just two states away -- was quite homesick for a while!

 

I loved my year as an enrolled uni student in Germany (I was also working), but I already had a U.S. degree, so it was just for fun. I knew students who lived in uni-run apartments (I still remember how efficiently the space was organized, and all the storage cabinets! :) ) and in the Studentendorf (small "cottages" run as co-ops), but most students got rooms on their own in town. Of interest might be the recent (1.5 years ago) Spiegel articles about the "Wohnungsnot" -- students living 5 to a room, etc. I assume this crisis has eased, since I haven't read about it recently. Oh, here's an article from last fall about students who easily found rooms with a little initiative and flexibility ... but yep, no hand-holding! :)

 

Also, as a PP said upthread, the French universities cut enrollment mercilessly. There are some New York Times articles (2006, 2011) about France's "archaic state-owned university system: overcrowded, underfinanced, disorganized ..." Excerpt from the other article: "Under French law, anyone with a baccalaureate — the French equivalent of a high school diploma — is entitled to admission to a local university. Open admission soon gives way to annual exams, meaning that more than 40 percent of French undergraduates fail to complete their studies."

[chiguirre]

Also, as a PP said upthread, the French universities cut enrollment mercilessly. There are some New York Times articles (2006, 2011) about France's "archaic state-owned university system: overcrowded, underfinanced, disorganized ..." Excerpt from the other article: "Under French law, anyone with a baccalaureate — the French equivalent of a high school diploma — is entitled to admission to a local university. Open admission soon gives way to annual exams, meaning that more than 40 percent of French undergraduates fail to complete their studies."

There are two points that need to be highlighted to put this in perspective. A French Bac is not equivalent to a US high school diploma. It is more comparable to the International Baccalaureate degree. In fact, an American needed to have 2 years of university studies to be able to enroll in a French university directly back when I was an undergrad (20 years ago).  The American 6 year graduation rate is also about 60%, so 40% of Americans also fail to complete their studies. French universities can be chaotic, but the Grandes Ecoles are still highly regarded institutions. There's a range of levels, just like in the US.

[Matryoshka]

There are two points that need to be highlighted to put this in perspective. A French Bac is not equivalent to a US high school diploma. It is more comparable to the International Baccalaureate degree. In fact, an American needed to have 2 years of university studies to be able to enroll in a French university directly back when I was an undergrad (20 years ago).  The American 6 year graduation rate is also about 60%, so 40% of Americans also fail to complete their studies. French universities can be chaotic, but the Grandes Ecoles are still highly regarded institutions. There's a range of levels, just like in the US.

 

Yes, the French Baccalaureate, or the German Abitur, are not equivalent to US high school diplomas (you need an Abitur to go to University as a German citizen).  That's why the German universities want to see all those APs from us in the US, as they see that bunch of APs as being some proof of rigor that may at least approach what the Abitur entails (which are both written - not multiple choice - and also oral exams across multiple subjects).  Less than half of Germans get the Abitur (and this number is much higher than it was in the past - university seems to be getting more popular everywhere), most get one of the two 10th-grade diplomas and go on to a 3-year apprenticeship program.

 

[Laura in CA]

There are two points that need to be highlighted to put this in perspective. A French Bac is not equivalent to a US high school diploma. It is more comparable to the International Baccalaureate degree. In fact, an American needed to have 2 years of university studies to be able to enroll in a French university directly back when I was an undergrad (20 years ago).  The American 6 year graduation rate is also about 60%, so 40% of Americans also fail to complete their studies. French universities can be chaotic, but the Grandes Ecoles are still highly regarded institutions. There's a range of levels, just like in the US.

 

Oh, I totally agree. I almost thought of mentioning that, but my post was long enough already ... that'll teach me to post in a rush! :) And I checked figures online before I posted, b/c I was dubious about the statement that a French bac was "the equivalent of a U.S. high-school degree" (those are the [fallible] NYT's words, not mine, by the way) -- apparently *70%* of French students get a bac now (??). I had heard it was only 30% or so, just a generation or so ago ... Anyway, that's why I said I already had a U.S. college degree when I enrolled in a German uni -- a (U.S.) high-school degree wouldn't have been enough preparation, either in my eyes or (I assume) in the German government's eyes.

 

And yes, of course I realize there's a range of levels (& the NYT articles make that clear). I was just thinking of pointing things out for folks who are thinking the grass is much greener and what's wrong with us anyway ... I guess I (perhaps unreasonably) was expecting people to read the articles I linked, instead of just my ponderings & the brief quotes. Both articles talk about the two tiers of French higher education. One mentions that the grandes écoles admit only 4% of French students. Hard enough for French students to get in, much less Americans. Perhaps when I have a minute I'll edit my original post to include the titles of the articles.

[Joan in GE]

I think this would be well-nigh impossible for a homeschooler to do right out of high school. 

 

I say this as someone who has known about this for a while and thought about it very seriously, as my dds do speak German quite well.

 

They will not accept a homeschool diploma, nor a GED.  They require a battery of AP exams, and they will not accept even high AP exam scores that are not in conjunction with an in-person AP class - so no self-studying, no online AP classes.  One of my dds would love to go live in Europe (and she got a 5 on the German AP) - she was in ps for 9th and 10th, and I told her when she came home again this year that this would probably preclude her going right to University in Europe right out of high school, and definitely preclude that option for Germany (I have looked into other countries less than Germany, so it could be there are other countries with less stringent rules).

 

My dd is still considering it, though, she'll just do 1-2 years at a US university and then think about transferring if she's still interested.  I think that's the path if you really want to do it as a homeschooler.

 

Sorry I'm so late to the conversation...

 

I do know one German girl who did the Abitur as a homeschooled student in Germany. I don't know if she went to university or not afterwards. But here, you can go into universities with the Matu done autodidact (by yourself at home) even if normally you couldn't as an autodidact for another type of exam - eg Abitur.

 

I couldn't quite tell from your older thread, if that is the same in Germany? going in if autodidact with the Abitur though you can't with a HS diploma?

 

Some things I'm wondering - have you heard of the correspondance courses developed by the German gov for German children who are living overseas? It's quite contradictory with their inland rules but there you have it - they encourage homeschooling for their citizens who are not at home. So these students, wouldn't they be able to take the Abitur and then go to school in DE?

 

Also, the problem here with doing the Matu autodidact isn't really the 'level' but the lack of transparency for the exams. But I would think, and please correct me if it's not true, since DE is such a large country, wouldn't they have made study books like in the US there are study books for AP's and SAT's etc? Ch is such a small country and has several languages so the number of people who would buy such books is too small to make it profitable, besides the problem of #'s, most of the exams are done in the local high schools and so not even standardized.

 

Is the Abitur standardized for everyone? Is there a national standardized exam or just a 'state' standardized exam or is it even smaller?

 

Here the Matu is standardized only at the federal level which is the exam just given to private school students, autodidacts - perhaps some others but not 'most' students. So it wouldn't even have a single book within a language (if you divide Ch into languages regions and therefore books possible in that language) on a subject. Eg a student told me how in German, his class had to learn a huge number of verbs or something while his friends' German class did not have such a requirement.

 

My only point about all this is that the Abitur might not be as hard as you think. If it is the same level as the Matu, which held a great mystique for me for a long time, some of the topics are the same or lower level than AP's. The "foreign" languages are definitely harder.

 

Another question - here there is a 'school' which is mostly 'correspondance' - the kids study at home, but every week, they go to the school and do classes on Saturdays.  Some homeschoolers use this option as well as a bunch of other people who wouldn't call themselves homeschoolers but theoretically are...

 

Would this be enough "class" time? Did they give 'hours' required to count?

 

It's funny to be getting info about Europe from people on the other side of the pond. :-)

[regentrude]

 

Some things I'm wondering - have you heard of the correspondance courses developed by the German gov for German children who are living overseas? It's quite contradictory with their inland rules but there you have it - they encourage homeschooling for their citizens who are not at home. So these students, wouldn't they be able to take the Abitur and then go to school in DE?

 

Is the Abitur standardized for everyone? Is there a national standardized exam or just a 'state' standardized exam or is it even smaller?

 

The Abitur is not nationally standardized, it depends on the state. There is some push towards a national exam, but it is not going anywhere, since the level of the Abitur varies significantly between strong states like Bavaria and Saxony and weak states like the ones in the North.

 

It is possible to study for the Abitur independently and take the exam (Nichtschuelerabitur = non-student exam). People passing this can, of course, attend university.

[Matryoshka]

The Abitur is not nationally standardized, it depends on the state. There is some push towards a national exam, but it is not going anywhere, since the level of the Abitur varies significantly between strong states like Bavaria and Saxony and weak states like the ones in the North.

 

It is possible to study for the Abitur independently and take the exam (Nichtschuelerabitur = non-student exam). People passing this can, of course, attend university.

 

The Abitur, as far as everything I've heard, is also not a 'standardized' test in the way anyone in the US would understand it.  There are no multiple choice or bubbles, no computer scoring, but lots of essays and a significant oral portion where you have to defend your arguments on the spot, in person.  And isn't it given over a few days at least?

 

Is it not like this in some states, Regentrude?

 

What is the Matu like, Joan? (I'm guessing that's the Swiss exam?)  Is it just a written test, or also oral?  Is there multiple choice and/or computer scoring?

 

 

[Joan in GE]

The Abitur is not nationally standardized, it depends on the state. There is some push towards a national exam, but it is not going anywhere, since the level of the Abitur varies significantly between strong states like Bavaria and Saxony and weak states like the ones in the North.

 

It is possible to study for the Abitur independently and take the exam (Nichtschuelerabitur = non-student exam). People passing this can, of course, attend university.

 

Thanks Regentrude!

 

Ok, but is it the same across the state?

 

Here, if you're not taking the Federal exam, it can vary even between high schools in the same "state" (=canton).

[Joan in GE]

The Abitur, as far as everything I've heard, is also not a 'standardized' test in the way anyone in the US would understand it.  There are no multiple choice or bubbles, no computer scoring, but lots of essays and a significant oral portion where you have to defend your arguments on the spot, in person.  And isn't it given over a few days at least?

 

Is it not like this in some states, Regentrude?

 

What is the Matu like, Joan? (I'm guessing that's the Swiss exam?)  Is it just a written test, or also oral?  Is there multiple choice and/or computer scoring?

 

H Matryoshka,

 

You can take it over two years or all in one year. (The Federal one - I think the local ones include grades during the year).

 

It's a little complex as you also have to do a 10 pg research kind of paper but not research the way we would think of it....It can be bizarre things, like how you've gone on an expedition up the highest mt around here or made your own wedding dress or held a  blood drive or more paper based - research of desertification - what other people have found but with some kind of personal question).

 

Here's the link in German:

http://www.sbfi.admin.ch/themen/01366/01379/01626/index.html?lang=de

 

You can ask for copies of old exams - look on the right side and you should see the link with the form (presuming the format of the page is the same as in Fr. as I can't read German). The problem is that they don't give you the answers, nor the questions for the orals....But you can buy answers for some of the subjects in this online site for a local private school - first some  samples in French (you can buy answers but they're in French too as the school is the French speaking part of Ch- maybe they also have them in German for their German school? I don't know but here is their school in Berlin - but I can't read well enough to know if they offer samples of the Ch exam in German there or not).

 

No, it's not multiple choice - and you'll see from the instructions in the first link that there are oral exams in the second part of the exam. They are 15 min long - for the languages, math, and a couple other things - like explaining your research paper.

 

But you can do a Bilingual matu so that some of the exams would be in English and you can write the paper (Travail de matu in French, not sure of the name in German) in English as well.

 

The problem is the lack of transparency and lack of preparatory books.

 

So does anyone know if they have preparatory books for the Abitur, like they do for the AP's and SAT's? I know some German families who might be able to benefit from that route if it is transparent enough from afar (like it is simple to study for AP's over here)

 

ETA some of the above info, as there was a party going on and I lost track of where I was :-)

 

Thanks!

Joan

[regentrude]

The Abitur, as far as everything I've heard, is also not a 'standardized' test in the way anyone in the US would understand it.  There are no multiple choice or bubbles, no computer scoring, but lots of essays and a significant oral portion where you have to defend your arguments on the spot, in person.  And isn't it given over a few days at least?

 

Is it not like this in some states, Regentrude?

 

 

Yes, that is correct, in all states. (I have never seen a single multiple choice test during all my education in Germany.)

 

But you still can sign up to take it as a non-school-attending student.

[Laura Corin]

Yes, that is correct, in all states. (I have never seen a single multiple choice test during all my education in Germany.)

 

 

No multi-choices in the UK when I was growing up either.  They exist now, but usually as warm-up questions in exam papers where the pupil also has to participate actively.  This is more what public exam papers usually look like.  This paper is part of a chemistry exam taken at age 16.