Dysgraphia. UGH. UGH.

[blondemonkey]

My dysgraphic/dyslexic son tries so hard. He continually gives me great effort; he wants to succeed so much. On the other hand, he is easily overwhelmed.  He is in 6th grade and all work (except Math) just takes so much longer than expected. I want to move him forward at the pace he needs to move. How do I deal with the discrepancy between his brain, my brain, and his output skills? We are working on Week 29 of Writing with Skill. We have been here for weeks. He is doing one step per day and sometimes multiple days just for one step. He is learning to cite and footnote which is tedious work for him. I realize that I am not just teaching that skill, but also the computer skills for footnoting and that takes time. It's taking so long. My brain just wants him to 'GET IT DONE' but I know that he really does need explicit instruction. It's not so bad, except that he is highly verbally gifted so I'm always confused about how much work is too much or if it's challenging enough. He can say such profound words and connect seemingly unrelated concepts. Yet, writing/typing is like awkward and stilting. He relies on the same sentence structure for many things. His handwriting is SO BAD that he can't even read it which is why we went to typing. However, sometimes he just wants to write it down because its quicker then getting on the computer. Even so the typing has so many errors that I'm not sure how much I should correct. Believe me, I have worked diligently to get to this point. He mostly did dictation before, now he volunteers to type his history narrations so I loathe to even correct those at all. But, in his writing class, I feel like he needs some direction....OKAY I am all over the place in the post. Sorry. Its been one of  those days where I wonder if homeschooling is helping or hurting him. sigh. Calming words?????? Its not his attitude, its mine. He is a good natured kid.
 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

1.  Are you using a systematic typing program to teach him typing?  One that allows you to adjust speed until accuracy has improved?

 

2.  Can you scribe for him in most writing output while his typing skills improve?  He really needs the physical act of writing to be worked on separately so it doesn't impede his ability to get thoughts out and polished.

 

3.  Have you looked at software like Dragon Naturally Speaking/Inspiration/Ginger?

 

4.  Homeschooling is probably a lot better option than sticking him in ps where he won't be able to keep up and will be penalized over and over for not being able to.

 

5.  Are you sure that WWS is the best option?  In other words, is the curriculum a good fit?

 

6.  Can you scale back some on writing assignments right now?  Honestly, I didn't deal with footnotes until High School.  

 

7.  Can he do some writing output on a dry erase board?

 

Again, huge hugs.  My son will be going into 6th grade this next year.  He is dyslexic and dysgraphic.  I know this is not easy.  

[FairProspects]

I feel your pain. Has his voice changed? If it has, I'd probably be moving him to Dragon. If not, I'd stick with typing and dedicated practice time for typing. There might be an element of slow processing speed going on here if you are always feeling like you want to speed him up. I constantly have to fight that urge too. We've just had to reduce the amount of output and work on the highest quality output we can get. And yes, the MLA formatting/footnotes is time consuming, but we do speed up on tasks we've done a ton, so to me that would be worth slowing down and getting right so that the speed can eventually come from continued usage. YMMV. You are not messing him up. The challenges would be real in any environment.

[blondemonkey]

Thank you both!!! We have a Mac so Ginger isn't available. Dragon didn't work well. He does use voice dictation on his iTouch Evernote app to get some thoughts out when he doesn't have computer access.

He does have a slower processing issue (but he is my deep thinker) and the evaluation classified him as atypical ADHD, but we have never felt he had an attention issue that wasn't directly related to him being overwhelmed by noise/distraction while he was trying to read/write. Although his voice hasn't changed yet, he has definitely experienced the fogginess of hormone overload. That's been new.  If I even look at him wrong, he wonders what's wrong.

 

I think I needed to feel as though he is where he is and that it's OKAY. It's hard because I would like to outsource a class and was looking at online options and I felt that typed online written responses on tests would probably be beyond him right now. 

He works very well with the WWS as long as we go slow and break up the steps because he understands the direction that the program is going. He is also really good at outlining. While I was at Yoga this evening, he had typed up another paragraph from his outline without any reminders. Three sentences and three footnotes, and he figured it out on his own. I was tickled that he did it and he said the footnotes don't bother him as they are just copy and paste from his works cited. He does not like doing the initial citation though so I know that with him, practice will help. Sentence writing is a strugge. His writing tends to fluctuate in complexity, and the spelling, capitalization, punctuation errors are very hard for him to see. I *need* to find a good program for the MAC. 

 

 

However, that said, we will be taking a break from it in 7th and using Bravewriter style to get his voice out. He made a comment that he would like to do some more open ended writing! He found a book laying around our family room called "Unjournaling" and he decided he would write from that 1x-2x per week (very short but fun to him exercises). I can tell he is feeling alot more confident about writing. There used to be tears and he dictated his narrations everytime through 5th grade. We decided together that in 6th,I would scribe every other history narration. He types 1 per week. Its been working very well because he is really proud of his writing......which is why I don't want to edit it at all. I might tell him to focus on capitals or spelling, or punctuation and then let it go. 

 

 

The whiteboard has been a lifesaver. He writes spelling words on that and uses it for math. 

 

I have to say that he really loves being homeschooled and tries his best.   He has told me that regular school would push him beyond his limits. I can see that. he used to cry after public school every day in 2nd grade. 

 

THanks for the vent. I needed a different view. 

 

 

 

 

[Pod's mum]

Dysgraphia. UGH. UGH.

Um, did you mean 'Disgrfy, uuhc, ook' ?

 

 

ETA; We do lots of oral answers, copy work and don't attempt to combine ideas-writing with legible-copy.

They live in separate parts of the brain and don't play nicely.

 

[displace]

Just hugs for you! DS is in first and we're working on letter formation (again). All of it is a struggle but slow and steady will keep you progressing.

 

Maybe switch topics and come back to footnotes? Sometimes being in the same thing for a while produces its own drudgery IMO.

[prairiewindmomma]

Dysgraphia is more than just ugly handwriting (the motor skills). I think the suggestion of separating any typing of motor stuff from the act of composition is smart.

 

Dysgraphia can also affect the ability to access/organize the words stored in your memory.  I have a not-dysgraphic oldest. Chapter 29 is just hard. It asks for a lot of skills all at once, and your ds is still in the 6th grade. It's ok that this is taking a while. Learning to write an academic paper is a necessary skill, but you still have a bit of time for everything to come together.  

 

One of the helpful things we did with ds was to write out the notation first, on separate paper, with me walking him through each step. It was painful.  What is the title of the book? (He had to go look.)  Who is the author? (He had to go look)? And so on.... Once the info was in place, then we worked on the format.    My son then went to go work on the composition of the paragraphs needed.  We went and manually put in the notation together.....  I think we spent two weeks on this chapter and I still feel like he is going to need a lot of help with the next time he bumps into writing a notated paper.  That's ok!

 

 

[PeterPan]

My dd's spurt in writing came in 7th/8th, so what you're seeing may really be the cusp of it.  I'd definitely download the dictation software (the full version) for your mac.  It's what my dh uses.  You have to slow down as you speak, but it works for him.  Anything that bridges and lets him get out his full thoughts rather than being restricted to what he can scratch/type will be good.  My dd does rooster writing and then translates. Let him find a method that works for him. 

 

Have you done any metronome work or working memory?  That can help.  Have you considered Cogmed?  My dd's spurt came when we were doing metronome work and adding in digit spans.  When their working memory is low, it makes it hard to hold their thoughts, organize, AND motor plan to get it out.  

 

The Unjournaling book is fun!  My dd also did the writing prompts from the teacher's manual for Jump Into Writing and those were fun.  He sounds very self-aware.  It's amazing he's getting through WWS right now.  What a slog!  My dd did WWS1 in 8th, WWS2 in 9th.  I got WWS3 but we haven't done it.  I just, I don't know.  I'm just saying you're reading it correctly and your ds is reading it correctly.  You can worry about nitpicky narrations, regurgitations, and outlines so much you lose their voice.  Shhh, but my dd doesn't like SWB's writing.  I think what she has done, approaching writing with a toolbox approach, is VERY helpful to our visual, other-thinking kinds of kids.  But that doesn't mean we should limit our kids to dagger writing. (what I call it when you get in, chop chop, and get out)  You can have a disability in getting it out and still have AMAZING things inside.  You just never know what will happen when you loosen up a bit.  My dd got really into fan fiction writing in 8th (or was it 7th?) and did it avidly into 9th, entering contests and even occasionally winning!  I NEVER would have anticipated that.  You ARE on the right track with what you're thinking, so do it.  Don't be afraid.  :)

 

 

[Julie of KY]

My oldest is super smart and severely dysgraphic, (also dyslexic). It's been an adventure working with him. My best advice is to keep separating out the components of teaching, and that what works for one person doesn't always work for another. Hang in there and know that you are in a wonderful position to figure out what your son needs and when it is overwhelming and just needs to be dropped or changed.

 

I have scribed for my son through 9th grade  -- at the end of 9th, something clicked and he picked up a pen and started writing on his own for the first time in his life. This year in 10th grade he is doing his writing for himself. I still do some of his typing as that has also been a very hard skill for  him to learn. He has always had a hard time remembering letter formation, judging spacial sizes, physically writing, and translating a mental picture into words. It's easy to say he can just dictate it and I'll scribe, but working on getting words out was very difficult. A nice benefit -- I think I managed to teach him a lot of punctuation naturally by him doing lots of copywork for handwriting practice.

 

By the way, my dysgraphic son says he still doesn't like writing, but he likes the Bravewriter method better than anything else. Hope it goes well for you too.

[Heathermomster]

Wow! You are doing great! DS learned to type the second half of 5th grade and went full typing in 6th. He was sitting in a nt classroom at the time. He came home for 7th grade, and we started a formal writing program with an O-G tutor. Irregardless of what writing program you use, the tutor taught me a few things.

 

After we reviewed the topic and ensured he understood the assignment, I scribed for DS even though he could type. Day 1 of writing was always the outline or KWO in our case. Later that day but usually the next day, DS revisited the assignment and then wrote his paragraph based upon the outline. Again, I scribed and then he typed up his work. The next day was edit and rewrite day. We examined word choices and sentence combining. Revising and using a thesaurus are part of the schtick, and the student needs to accept that. You have to gentle because they are sensitive and writing is personal, which is why an outsider is so great.

 

By late 7th grade, I quit scribing unless the project was difficult for him. As a 9th grader, I scribe when it is clear that DS is stuck, and that has happened during a couple of his informal logic projects. Otherwise, he types his own work.

 

As a 9th grader, DS is very competent with MS Word and Libre, a Linux freebie. Citations and MLA formatting are no big deal anymore. The learning curve is steep but worth the effort. DS also uses an online MLA citation generator where he enters the relevant information and copies the citation into his document.

 

DS relies heavily on the word processing editor for spell corrections. Word has a text to speech option that may help your DS hear his mistakes and funny sentence structure. We use mindmapping software sometimes for outlining and sequencing events to mix things up. Traditional outlines get boring.

 

You mentioned the typos as your DS works. Try not to get upset unless he is not correcting them. Does he have fine motor issues that affect him using a mouse? You may need to try different ones, such as one with a trackball. He sounds like his dysgraphia is more motor based, so even typing is going to be a chore. He will need to play around with the technologies to find an output method that is suitable to him.

 

Writing is a work in progress for us. When I think of DS and my expectations, I focus on where I want him to be by graduation. Dysgraphia is a total pain; however, things seem to be easier in high school because the focus is now upon revision and thought.

[FairProspects]

Am I the only one with a ds who is pre-teen crazy for independence and is super embarrassed by Mom scribing?

 

I'm grateful ds learned to type so young, and while he isn't fluent and fast or anything, he has never really struggled with it either. But there is no way he would let me scribe for him anymore, even at 10.5.

 

OP, have you looked at Home2Teach for writing? All the work for the online lesson is done ahead of time, so in class you are typing in answers you have already completed and you can focus just on the typing without having to simultaneously think on your feet and type. You can send in a writing sample for correct class placement, and there are even permission only classes that are not listed for open registration if you have a very talented writer. If you are serious about an online class, you might check it out. They are working very well for my dysgraphic (and a few others I know too).

[blondemonkey]

Wow. I feel so much better. I was seriously having thought issues. Its not just writing, its all the school work except math. Math is a joy for both of us. He loves learning it and I enjoy mentoring him. The problems I have with the writing across the board is that I have a Kindergartener. I have a very relaxed approach for K so its not a big deal, but I find that I will skip things with my K'er because my 6th grader needs me to scribe or work on something with him. AFter reading all the comments, I feel like I am NOT ALONE and that dysgraphia is very pervasive. It is in his word choices too. 

 

Week 29 is tough, but we will get through it at our pace. He is very proud of his work when he is done. I'm getting excited about Bravewriter. 

On his history timeline, he draws cool pictures with each date, but they look like a 2nd grader did it. I'm more impressed that he enjoys the process. He used to hate drawing and now he enjoys it. I'm focusing on that kind of success for the most part, but doubt creeps in and is a traitor to my thoughts. 

[blondemonkey]

So one more thing: I suppose I need to realize that we do more school than I realize. We often sing alternative words to popular songs in the car. ANd we will spend lots of time matching sounds and rythym to get the best version. I realize now that oral type of work actually stimulates word retrieval and more. I mean some of the lyrics we create are rather absurd, but it definitely gets his interest.

[PeterPan]

You might get him Listography.  There are a bunch of versions.

[EKS]

It's amazing he's getting through WWS right now.  What a slog! 

 

This. 

 

Other than considering whether WWS is the best fit for him right now, I'd continue working on typing skills.  And I'd let him dictate everything to you that isn't an actual writing writing assignment.  And maybe I'd have him dictate those for a while as well.

[clemota]

DD12 has stealth dyslexia and dysgraphia.  We had to deal with similar issues in terms of writing.  Typing helped some, but I noticed the biggest improvement in writing when we added Typ-O.  It's  word-prediction software (like Ginger), but for Macs.  Her writing went from stilted to flowing.  It was amazing how one little program could do so much.  We also started Jump In this year and found the two were a really good combination. 

 

We also did Vision Therapy, which seemed to have helped with some of the mechanics of writing/drawing.  She's able to write out short sentences in a straight line now, for example (as compared to some letters being up on that line, some being down below, and occasional one on the correct line in the middle but being two sizes too big, etc).  It's making her feel more confident about herself, even if it takes her twice as long as her friends (it's not, and will likely never be automatic).  Her drawing has improved as well, going from looking like a kindergartener's scribbles to looking like something an older elementary child has done.  She really wants to try cursive again, so we'll be starting that up over the summer.  No pressure from me, but just something she wants to do. 

 

I'm in awe of your son being able to get through WWS - even at a slower speed.  We dropped it very quickly when I realized it wasn't a good fit for my DD.  That's awesome that he's even working on it while you're away.  I think that, given your information about his processing speed, he's doing a fine job!