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Help me choose math for pre-alg to calculus


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My dd will be 7th grade and ready for pre-algebra next school year. She has been using Math Mammoth for years, almost entirely independently. Now I'm looking for a curriculum to take her from pre-alg to calculus. I know we could have to make a change, but I'm hoping to not curriculum hop if possible. I have a math education degree, so teaching it doesn't scare me. I just don't want something that requires a lot of prep time. I don't want a video or online course. I want a very solid program. Suggestions?

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http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542418-homeschool-high-school-math/

is a good place to see many options in one place. Without knowing more about your student, it's hard to say more. Can you provide more details about interest level in math, what works best for DD, etc.? Art of Problem Solving is top notch, and challenging; Foerster for algebras, precalculus, and calculus, with Jacobs or Jurgensen for geometry, would be a solid option.

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Keep in mind you may change once you begin.

 

I bought Derek Owens for PreA and Math Math to supplement with idea I could use DO all the way thorough after looking at the possibilities. I had looked at/ own Dolciani books, Foester books, the ones recommended for Math without borders, etc. I thought I had a plan.

 

We did about 2 weeks of "real" preA and ended up moving on to Jacobs Algebra. She was ready, and Jacobs has enough PreA to fill in any gaps that may be there, which were pretty limited based on the placement test at the Dr Callahan site.

 

So all of my PreA planning/ long term planning was a waste. We came out of Singapore through 5 and MM for 6 + some supplements (like the set theory chapter in a Dolciani PreA book for logic). Jacobs was a good fit for my independent learner after MM. Worth a look.

 

So I guess my advice is, first decided if your dc needs PreA- depending on what level of what program you are coming out of, and what algebra they are going into, they may not.

 

Second, spend a few weeks letting your dc try out a few of the most likely options using samples or inexpensive copies of the text. There are often sample pages available. The first few weeks of most PreA is a review of 5th-6th grade material anyhow.

 

Good luck!

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My oldest  who was good at math did:

Jacobs Algebra

Jacobs Geometry (2nd edition)

Kinetic Books Algebra II (she was a beta tester)

Larson's Precalculus (we hated it)

 

My middle who was also good at math did:

Kinetic Books Algebra I (she was a beta tester)

Jacobs Geometry (3rd edition)

Kinetic Books Algebra II

Lial's Precalculus (much better than Larson's, but she really wished that Kinetic Books went all the way up to Precal because that was her favorite math program)

Thinkwell Calculus - don't recommend it, really didn't like it, ended up abandoning it and using Calculus the Easy Way

 

My youngest who struggles with math did:

MUS from Prealgebra through Algebra II 

She will be taking Business Math and Business Calculus next year at the community college. I want to get her through those courses while she is still at home so I can help her with them as needed.

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I really don't think it's necessary to choose the same publisher for pre-algebra to calculus. The differences in scope and sequence are far more minor among high school publishers, so as long as you are not trying a drastic jump in difficulty level most will suffice. There are a very few (videotext, for example) where the scope and sequence is nonstandard enough that if you are doing their algebra, you really need to do it all the way through, but most are not that way.

 

If you like math mammoth and she is learning from it and doing very well, I would highly recommend continuing through their pre-algebra and then choosing a program beginning with algebra instead.

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I would look at Saxon, and if it seems like it might work, I'd have her take the placement test.  Saxon 8/7 is the usual pre-algebra book and is a good way to get used to the Saxon way of teaching before beginning algebra.  If you use the older texts - 3rd editions (2nd for Advanced Math) - then the geometry is incorporated into the other texts.  If you use the newer 4th edition ones, you'll need to do geometry as a separate text, either Saxon's or something different.  Saxon teaches the lessons to the student in the texts and has practice problems followed by 30 practice and review problems.  Saxon is a solid and rigorous program IMO. 

 

Whether you decide to use Saxon, AoPS or whatever, I would suggest making the change for next year as it gives your daughter that time to adjust and you'll also know whether it will likely work for high school or not

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We are sticking with Saxon as well.  Ds used Algebra 1/2 in 6th-7th grade, and Algebra 1 in 7th-8th grade.  We'll probably stretch Algebra 1 a little bit into 9th grade and then start Algebra 2 (3rd editions). 

 

I keep trying to see if ds would like other things (Math U See, TT Math 7 and Algebra 1, Life of Fred Fractions to Beginning Algebra, and various inexpensive workbooks) but ds always asks to go back to Saxon.  We do math together using a white board.  I don't prep, we just move on to the next lesson.  I haven't used many of the tests that come with the program, but I may start next year (9th grade).  For the high school years we plan on using:

 

Saxon Algebra 2 - 9th grade

Saxon Advanced Math (1st 1/2) - 10th grade

Saxon Advanced Math (2nd 1/2) - 11th grade

Saxon Calculus - 12th grade

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  • 2 weeks later...

We've used Saxon Alg 1/2, I,then Jacob's Geometry (some used 2nd ed, some 3rd), then Saxon Adv Math. 

 

Oldest:

Alg 1/2

Alg I

Jacobs Geometry (2nd ed.)

Alg II

Adv Math as a junior

Calc I in college

 

Next:

Alg 1/2

Alg I

Jacobs Geometry (2nd ed.)

Alg II

Adv Math as a junior

Calc I & II at local college as senior. Horrible prof and she struggled

Retook Calc I & II at USNA  They covered what she'd done the previous year in 6 weeks. 

 

Next:

Alg 1/2

Alg I

Jacobs Geometry (3rd ed.)

Alg II

Adv Math as a junior

part of Saxon calc book, then took calc I & II at university

 

Next: 

Alg 1/2

Alg I

Jacobs Geometry (3rd ed.)

Alg II

Adv Math as a junior, concurrently with Math 141 (precalc) at local uni

Calc I & II at local uni

Calc II short-form at Mines, 

Calc III

Diffy Q next semester

 

Last: 

Alg 1/2

Alg I

Jacobs Geometry (3rd ed.)

Alg II

will take Adv Math next year at home, unless we just have her do Math 140 (trig) and then 141 (pre-calc) as junior. We have to make that decision today to register for classes. It depends who the prof is. 

Hi Margaret,

 

We'll be using Jacob's Geometry this coming Fall (2015).  I was wondering what you thought of the 2nd and 3rd Editions.  I see you've used each edition a couple of times.  Do you prefer one over the other?  Was one easier to use?  In terms of rigor, are they both the same?  Thank you for any information you can send!

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My oldest  who was good at math did:

Jacobs Algebra

Jacobs Geometry (2nd edition)

Kinetic Books Algebra II (she was a beta tester)

Larson's Precalculus (we hated it)

 

My middle who was also good at math did:

Kinetic Books Algebra I (she was a beta tester)

Jacobs Geometry (3rd edition)

Kinetic Books Algebra II

Lial's Precalculus (much better than Larson's, but she really wished that Kinetic Books went all the way up to Precal because that was her favorite math program)

Thinkwell Calculus - don't recommend it, really didn't like it, ended up abandoning it and using Calculus the Easy Way

 

My youngest who struggles with math did:

MUS from Prealgebra through Algebra II 

She will be taking Business Math and Business Calculus next year at the community college. I want to get her through those courses while she is still at home so I can help her with them as needed.

Hi AngieW,

 

Now that I've narrowed down which Geometry book to use...I've got to make one more decision and that is which edition of Jacobs Geometry to use.  I see you've used both.  Can you tell me about that experience, are they about the same in terms of difficulty and rigor?  I know some people say that there are more proofs in the 2nd.  Were they both easy to understand and teach?  I'll be teaching my student myself.  Thanks for any info you can send!

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I'm starting this for my 3rd.  Here's what we've done thus far:

 

Oldest (boy):

 

He has jumped from one math course to another (some due to finances, some because things didn't fit, some because he didn't do required homework in an online class, because he thought he understood from the lectures...maturity issues).

 

He did:

 

Pre-Algebra: K12; LoF

Algebra 1: Foerster's and TT

Geometry:  Jacob's

Algebra 2: Lial's; Phil4 and will do a run-through of Foerester's this summer before Pre-Calc

Pre-Calc:  Chalkdust (with a side of LoF and Alcumus)

Calculus:  Chalkdust (with a side of LoF and Alcumus)

 

#2 -- Daughter (very good at math):

 

Pre-Algebra:  LoF and AoPS

Algebra 1: Forester's

Geometry: TT followed by Phil4

Algebra 2: Time4Learning followed by AoPS

Pre-Calculus:  Chalkdust and/or AoPS

Calculus: Chalkdust and/or AoPS

 

#3 -- Son (just starting down this path)

 

Pre-Algebra:  Chalkdust and LoF

Algebra 1: Either Forester's or Chalkdust and LoF

Geometry: Jacob's with Derek Owens or Chalkdust and LoF

Algebra 2: Either Forester's or Chalkdust and LoF

Pre-Calculus: Chalkdust and LoF 

Calculus: Chalkdust and LoF

 

For us, the issues at play have not been who was "good at math" or "not good at math" -- it has had more to do with maturity, self-determination, and who does better with what approach.

 

My oldest son has always been gifted at math, but putting him in situations that require a LOT of struggle (AoPS) tends to create more problems than it's worth.  Conversely, finding programs that he can struggle through *enough* to make him understand the importance of studying has also been a challenge.  He has done best with on-line math courses, but I can't always affrod that.  We seem to have *finally* reached a break-through, and I feel he's ready for more of a self-paced program again.

 

My #2 has always been willing to push herself to learn (taking 2 math courses concurrently, and blazing through material).  AoPS is a good fit for her, because when *she* gets frustrated, I can tell her to take a break and come back tomorrow and she'll figure it out (that approach never worked for my older son).  

 

My #3 is more stubborn than #1 son, just as talented at math, and just as distracted.  Thinks everything should be easy, but is not motivated by an outside force (teacher other than me).  He needs structure and accountability -- but may enjoy the Fred or AoPS approach (and I can't help with *either* of those...but #2 DD can).  So, we are remaining a bit fluid.

 

I've gravitated back to Chalkdust because the material is very well laid out, the video explanations are thorough and clear, and the kids can receive help from the instructor, if needed.  

 

 

 

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It's different from elementary school in that there isn't any big advantage to sticking with the same publisher each year. Each course is somewhat self-contained. Just make a decision about pre-algebra for now and see how it goes.

 

This. Don't choose a math for Pre-Algebra through Calculus, choose a Pre-Algebra program. There is a huge pre-algebra thread on the Middle Grades forum from about a year ago, full of great information.

 

The Algebra sequence, Pre-Algebra, Algebra, Algebra 2, can be beneficial to keep together, but it isn't essential. There is little to no benefit to doing Geometry or Pre-Calc, & Calc with the same publisher you started Pre-Algebra with. 

 

This is one time where a shorter term view will help you.

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Hi AngieW,

 

Now that I've narrowed down which Geometry book to use...I've got to make one more decision and that is which edition of Jacobs Geometry to use.  I see you've used both.  Can you tell me about that experience, are they about the same in terms of difficulty and rigor?  I know some people say that there are more proofs in the 2nd.  Were they both easy to understand and teach?  I'll be teaching my student myself.  Thanks for any info you can send!

I liked the 3rd edition better than the 2nd edition. In the 2nd edition, the proofs were straight-up proofs just like I remembered from high school. Given .... Prove ... with two column proofs.

 

In the 3rd edition, the columns were set up and either the statement or reason was given for most of the lines. I think it worked better to figure out the statement given the reason or the reason given the statement rather than just the Given and Prove statements for the beginning and end of the proof.

 

The 3rd edition was definitely easier to teach than the 2nd edition, although I was very happy that somebody on this board had a list of the recommended problems to work. I don't have that list any more because that was two computers ago, but I know it's somewhere in the archives for this board.

 

There are far more problems in 3rd edition than are reasonable to do, so you will have to find some way to decide which problems to assign.

 

I thought the teaching portion of the text was better for 3rd edition than for 2nd also.

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the reviews of jacobs geometry at amazon compare the 2nd and 3rd editions.  some greatly prefer the 3rd, others do not.  by my assessment, the 3rd has much less stress on reasoning and logic.  so it boils down somewhat to whether you want to stress that or not.

 

if you click on the 5 star reviews, you will find one by Peter Renz, who helped prepare the 3rd edition, who calls it head and shoulders above the 2nd edition.  If you click on 4 star reviews you will find mine, expressing my regret that the 3rd edition was, in my opinion, significantly watered down in rigor from its earlier form.

 

So you might want to look at both to see if the changes work fpr your purposes or not.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Seeing-Doing-Understanding-Edition/product-reviews/0716743612/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_5?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addFourStar&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=helpful&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=five_star&pageNumber=1

 

 

Saxon also fills a special niche.  In my opinion, anyone wanting to understand and appreciate mathematics deeply, say possibly become a mathematician, should avoid Saxon books.  But that is a rather small subset of students.

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As you can see, when you ask questions like this you'll get 101 different answers because it varies per child and family preference.  I agree with others in that there is no reason to pick  'one' math curriculum for all grades way ahead of time.  It simply isn't necessary.  

 

Start with finding a Pre-A that's a good fit for your dd.  What will work best with her learning style?  I recommend getting free samples (e.g. AoPS, MM, etc.) and used texts (e.g. Dolciani, Lials, etc.).  Then look at them with her.  It doesn't hurt to have a few resources on hand anyway for a different take on things and extra problems when certain areas need more work/practice.   Then you'll have plenty of time to consider the other math subject years as she grows academically each year.  Think about when you went to school and studied math or even current solid school programs.  Rarely do they use only one publisher/resource for all subjects (pre-a through calculus). 

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