bad handwriting and WWE or WWS

[summerreading]

I posted this on general curriculum, but might get more answers here.

I'm just starting to get the bigger picture of my 11 year old's handwriting. I bought Brave Writer to use with him, but so far we haven't. I guess I need open and go or it won't happen.

 

Trying to place him in WWSkill, but he can't do the year end assessment for WWE 3. He can do 2, but the dictation takes so long because of his handwriting. I have been letting him mostly type, but he has to develop the skill of getting his ideas fully out.

 

I constantly have to remind him start with a capital, use capital for proper names, put spaces between your words and his letters, especially r, n, h with the diving down and over, but also t, l are irregular heights. Also still b/d reversals. And his grip, I have been trying to help him with, but he is most comfortable with his index, middle and ring finger wrapped over the pencil.

 

Would a lot of practice help? It has with writing numbers. Is there a point to doing these programs on the computer? And will only typing hurt him when is time to apply for college?

 

Sorry this is long

[Innisfree]

I did go back and read your other post, but I'm on my phone and can't see signatures, so forgive me if I'm missing something you've posted.

 

My d has some of the same issues (band d reversals, messy writing, poor grip, etc) and we've been told to get an OT evaluation for dysgraphia.

 

For the capitalization type errors, we worked through an Evan Moor Daily Language Review book (ours was grade 3, you could see if another grade would suit). The advantage it gave was that she was correcting someone else's work most of the time, so it didn't feel as bad as correcting her own. Also the daily work was very short. She generally didn't copy the whole sentence, just crossed out mistakes and made corrections. It was just a quick, low-stress, daily way to get some mechanics practice. There might be similar things others would know.

 

As for your main questions of WWS or WWE, I think I have two answers. First, if he can do the work if he types, I'd let him type and work at the appropriate level based on his skill then. Second, have you done evaluations? If not, I think I would as soon as possible. You need to have the information they'll give you.

[summerreading]

I did go back and read your other post, but I'm on my phone and can't see signatures, so forgive me if I'm missing something you've posted.

 

My d has some of the same issues (band d reversals, messy writing, poor grip, etc) and we've been told to get an OT evaluation for dysgraphia.

 

For the capitalization type errors, we worked through an Evan Moor Daily Language Review book (ours was grade 3, you could see if another grade would suit). The advantage it gave was that she was correcting someone else's work most of the time, so it didn't feel as bad as correcting her own. Also the daily work was very short. She generally didn't copy the whole sentence, just crossed out mistakes and made corrections. It was just a quick, low-stress, daily way to get some mechanics practice. There might be similar things others would know.

 

As for your main questions of WWS or WWE, I think I have two answers. First, if he can do the work if he types, I'd let him type and work at the appropriate level based on his skill then. Second, have you done evaluations? If not, I think I would as soon as possible. You need to have the information they'll give you.

I'm going to call today to see if an OT eval would be covered.

I think I will start him on WWE 3. We used to use Zaner Bloser's GUM and liked it. Thanks good suggestions

[PeterPan]

Yeah, it's time to teach typing.  If your VT hasn't improved it it's probably dysgraphia.  

 

Just so you know, WWE and WWS are torture tools for SN kids.  They can be useful, but you've gotta use your head and not think they're gospel.  WWE is basically therapy for working memory in the disguise of school work.  So if he has WM deficits on top of the dysgraphia, you're connecting his disability and something you'd hope he'd eventually love (writing) and making it unpleasant.  I think it's more important to get writing working and have a positive experience than it is to use school work for therapy, kwim?  

 

BW would be on the right track.  IEW would be fine.  Nuts, just doing writing prompts you find online for free would be fine!  I used the writing prompts one year from the Jump In tm and they were GREAT.  The Jump In tm is cheap and you might even pick it up for almost free if you look around.  I printed the prompts for each month and put them in page protectors.  Let him TYPE those or even use dictation software.  Enough of connecting his disability to his school work.  Give him some tools so he can finally BLOSSOM and show what's inside, not just what he can scratch, kwim?  

[summerreading]

Yeah, it's time to teach typing.  If your VT hasn't improved it it's probably dysgraphia.  

 

Just so you know, WWE and WWS are torture tools for SN kids.  They can be useful, but you've gotta use your head and not think they're gospel.  WWE is basically therapy for working memory in the disguise of school work.  So if he has WM deficits on top of the dysgraphia, you're connecting his disability and something you'd hope he'd eventually love (writing) and making it unpleasant.  I think it's more important to get writing working and have a positive experience than it is to use school work for therapy, kwim?  

 

BW would be on the right track.  IEW would be fine.  Nuts, just doing writing prompts you find online for free would be fine!  I used the writing prompts one year from the Jump In tm and they were GREAT.  The Jump In tm is cheap and you might even pick it up for almost free if you look around.  I printed the prompts for each month and put them in page protectors.  Let him TYPE those or even use dictation software.  Enough of connecting his disability to his school work.  Give him some tools so he can finally BLOSSOM and show what's inside, not just what he can scratch, kwim?  

 

This is not for my son who is in VT, this is for his older brother.

 

wouldn't WWE improve his working memory then?

[PeterPan]

Summer, are you really asking me if having a dysgraphic child do WWE is going to be a good experience and have a good outcome? Do what you want.  I think you should go with your own gut on what is working and having a beneficial effect while maintaining the attitudes you want toward those things.  

 

It's not necessary to link together working memory, motor planning, and composition.  It can work out really well for some kids, kids with no disabilities.  You might even decide you could slow it down, do it in super small bites that never provoke him to meltdowns or frustration, where all steps are WITHIN REACH, and get the positive outcome you want.  But once you realize there are disabilities you could, alternately, decide to separate those things.  You could decide to let him TYPE his dictation.  That way you've eliminated the motor planning (more or less, depending on his physical and neurological ability to type) and are down to working memory and ability to get thought to paper.  You could decide that's idiotic to tie working memory to composition, that you'd rather work on working memory with Cogmed or something research-based that is known to boost working memory in kids with working memory deficits, leaving his composition (thought to paper) to be pleasurable.  You're ALLOWED to break those apart because you're the mom.

 

If you can keep those three things together and still keep a positive atmosphere where every step is small enough to be achievable, more power to you.  If he's having meltdowns or frustrated or one aspect is glitching, break them apart.  

 

When I did digit spans plus metronome work with my dd, that's when her ability to get her thoughts improved.  WWE wasn't really what she needed because she needed a therapy-level intervention, not just something meant for typical kids.  Therapy interventions will be intense, frequent, and of duration to get the brain rewiring needed.  I don't WANT to turn composition into therapy, because I want her to ENJOY writing.  

 

She does enjoy writing now, btw.  She uses the Dvorak keyboard layout and since our metronome work LOVES writing.  Go figure.  

[PeterPan]

I need to say this a more positive way.  Sometimes people confuse the disabilities with the child's gifts and think they're one in the same.  Reality is, our kids could actually be AMAZING writers--in spite of their disabilities!  EF, motor planning, dysgraphia, dyslexia, these are the disability things.  But WHAT IF our kids are actually fountains inside of worthwhile thought?  What if we actually viewed them that way instead of thinking that having them slog through, like limping dogs, is good enough?  What if that WASN'T good enough?  What if we viewed our kids as budding writers and removed the disability barriers holding that back, just like we give our kids glasses or deal with other disabilities?

 

How would you teach him if you viewed him as a future professional writer with amazing things to say who just happens to have a disability (or two or three)?  What barriers would you remove?

[Tiramisu]

I have a dc who really did not do well with WWE2. It was very hard for her and we stopped and I don't regret it. She is doing absolutely great now in high school. 

 

Another dc is using WWE3 currently. Beware, the dictations at that level are too much for many kids. You're going to have to find chop down them down and find a sweet spot between gently stretching that working memory and causing frustration that will make him shut down. We are struggling with that right now.

 

I will always remember a story OhE shared when she would try to get her dd to narrate and she would say something like, "If you want to know what it's about, read it yourself." Maybe OhE will tell me if I'm remember that correctly. My dd is a little like that. She'll narrate if I follow the script for WWE but won't for anything else. Or rather, she'll give the briefest possible one or two sentence summary for anything we read and that's the end of it for her. I keep telling myself, OhE's dd is doing great. Mine will be okay, too.

 

 

[Tiramisu]

I did go back and read your other post, but I'm on my phone and can't see signatures, so forgive me if I'm missing something you've posted.

 

My d has some of the same issues (band d reversals, messy writing, poor grip, etc) and we've been told to get an OT evaluation for dysgraphia.

 

For the capitalization type errors, we worked through an Evan Moor Daily Language Review book (ours was grade 3, you could see if another grade would suit). The advantage it gave was that she was correcting someone else's work most of the time, so it didn't feel as bad as correcting her own. Also the daily work was very short. She generally didn't copy the whole sentence, just crossed out mistakes and made corrections. It was just a quick, low-stress, daily way to get some mechanics practice. There might be similar things others would know.

 

As for your main questions of WWS or WWE, I think I have two answers. First, if he can do the work if he types, I'd let him type and work at the appropriate level based on his skill then. Second, have you done evaluations? If not, I think I would as soon as possible. You need to have the information they'll give you.

 

We're using EM Daily Language Review now and it's really dd's favorite. Short and sweet. And, yes, it's been very helpful in integrating correct capitalization and punctuation into other writing. 

 

There is only one other resource where I've seen that kind of application and improvement, and that was Killgallon's Sentence Composing.

[Heathermomster]

I tend to avoid writing programs that involve heavy dictation, and DS narrates in history and during informal logic assignments.  Typing was a game changer for DS and made work completion a lot easier.  In fact, he spent about a year thanking me for teaching him to type.

 

Since you own it already, use the BW and scribe for your DS as he learns to the type. 

[Tiramisu]

I tend to avoid writing programs that involve heavy dictation, and DS narrates in history and during informal logic assignments.  Typing was a game changer for DS and made work completion a lot easier.  In fact, he spent about a year thanking me for teaching him to type.

 

Since you own it already, use the BW and scribe for your DS as he learns to the type. 

 

What writing programs have worked for you, Heathermomster? I'm on the search right now, and I'm starting to think dictation may not be worth the battle.

[Heathermomster]

What writing programs have worked for you, Heathermomster? I'm on the search right now, and I'm starting to think dictation may not be worth the battle.

For 7th and 8th grades, I hired an O-G certified Wilson tutor to teach DS using IEW thematic books.  For 9th grade, DS is taking Elegant Essay at our homeschool co-op.  Next year, we will likely take the IEW SWI CC level C.  I can't decide yet.

[summerreading]

Ok I think BW is sounding like the better way to go. The daily language review seems very doable. Looking at it online it says half page exercises per day. I'm sure he'd appreciate that.

Thanks.

[PeterPan]

I got my dd through WWS1 and 2, but I did it by highlighting the jist of the instructions (to make sure she GOT it), chunking it to fit her, and doing it several years later than most people.  (WWS1 for 8th, WWS2 for 9th)  She typed all her assignments and used Inspiration software liberally.  I also encouraged modifications of the tasks to have audience or purpose.  My favorite one, hehe, was telling her to channel Donald Trump and tell why the historical character got fired.   :D  

 

So anyways, it might be something you come back to later.  Or might not.  It's just good to ask those questions and decide for yourself.  For my ds6, I have BW Jot It Down (ADORE!!!) and wouldn't hesitate to use IEW.  I'm a total writing snob, btw, but Pudewa just seems to get into the minds of boys.  Maybe your library has WWS so you can look at it eventually and decide for yourself?  PHP has the first how many chapters/weeks online, so you can try it at some point, when the time seems right.  I really think it's the kind of thing that, in a way, is better late than early.  Most of the frustration seems to come with people trying to do it early.  By doing it later, dd already had her voice as a writer and had comfort with the process, so she could just have fun with it.  I'm not saying people HAVE to do it later like that, but having that comfort and readiness, to me, was the marker that it was time, kwim?  But do as you wish.  :)

 

[OneStepAtATime]

I love Bravewriter...but it was not workable for my kids, at least not at the time that we used it.  Having done several things I think IEW is the better fit for my kids (might not be for yours) because it is so systematic, breaks everything down into pieces I think they can handle, and I think it will keep the weaknesses from running rampant while they try to improve their writing skills.  We have not officially started, though.  That is just my impression from knowing our past experiences and watching the DVDs for IEW.