Bree Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 So, DS is starting 5th grade and has been doing well with TT 5, but he did terrible on his math portion of the CAT test :( He did great on everything else. He had no problem with single digit multiplication but multiple digit and division not so well. He has learned these before but... We have used Singapore math through 3A but he hated it. Suggestions please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 What was his percentile score, mid-range or really low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Which CAT did you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateingr Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 It might be that your son just hasn't studied these topics in depth enough with TT yet, compared to the CAT standards. I haven't used TT myself, but based on the table of contents, it looks like TT addresses multi-digit multiplication for the first time in lesson 25 or so of fifth-grade, and long division for the first time around lesson 75 of fifth-grade. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) That's fairly late compared to the usual scope and sequence, so the problem might not be that TT isn't working for your son, but just that it's a little behind where CAT expects kids to be. How are your son's grades with TT? Does he seem to be really understanding what he's doing and mastering the material? If so, TT might be fine for him, but you might want to think about accelerating it if you're concerned about him performing at grade-level standards. On the other hand, if you're not so sure that he's really learning the math, it could be time for a new curriculum. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Agreeing with kateingr about the scope/sequence of TT may be different than the CAT, so that's not something to freak about. Also, there's always the possibility that DS just got off in filling in the bubbles, which would mis-match his answers on the sheet that is scored. He would certainly not be the first to do so! Do you have past CAT tests to compare scores in math? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Nothing more to add other than my first thought was scope and sequence as well, since you say he's doing fine with his curriculum at home. We do MUS and it's a known fact that MUS has a different s&s than other curricula and has the possibility to make test scores look bad. I wonder if the same thing is going on with you. Is there a way to know exactly which questions were wrong? Can you check too see if this was new information to your son? Something he has barely learned yet? ETA: Wait...you didn't say he was doing well with TT for mult. You said he was shaky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 He is doing fine with TT. He doesn't make under an 85% and usually stays on the higher 90%. He only made 18 percentile for math, so pretty low. The good news was he did great on spelling and vocabulary and average on the rest. It may just be the s&s. The problems he was getting wrong were easy division, he totally forgot how to do that and problems like 23x15. He had a few problems with borrowing but I think that is because he was doing it in his head vs writing it down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 If I were you, I would be inclined to sit with him to make sure he isn't just floating through the program, without retaining (which is a problem for others who have used TT, from what I hear). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Darn kids who won't write down their work (I just went 9 rounds w dd over showing her Precalc work... :rolleyes: :lol: ) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Which CAT did you use? It was the 70's version from Christian Liberty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 I guess the thing is I taught him this stuff when we were in Singapore math...Wondering if I should do something else of if he will catch up with TT. Both my kids are working about a year ahead in it so I would of thought he would of been ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I guess the thing is I taught him this stuff when we were in Singapore math...Wondering if I should do something else of if he will catch up with TT. Both my kids are working about a year ahead in it so I would of thought he would of been ok. Another possibility: 5th grade/10yo is that lovely pre-adolescent period were growth spurts and just-beginning-to-change hormones eat their brains. ;) Things they knew yesterday or were solid with for two years are mysteriously gone today… And resurface again the next day or the next week, just as mysteriously. :) Using a supplemental program or resource from a very different perspective 10 minutes a day, or as a substitute for the spine math once a week, is a great way to review and to increase math connections and problem-solving skills to keep even those shifting hormone brains solid with basic math functions. :) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 You might consider incorporating additional review, in short segments, on a daily basis from another source. Like maybe 5-10 minutes a day or every other day. Maybe MM worksheets or worksheets from the internet or return to Singapore. Some kids need consistent review, over a long period of time, for something to truly be internalized, not just understand and temporarily mastered. FWIW, my kids did great on TT test scores but were not truly retaining a lot of the material. We switched but I think it is still a great program and can work brilliantly for many kids. I think some kids are going to need more review, with paper and pencil or on a dry erase board, instead of only doing TT through the computer, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatmansWife Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Is he only doing the TT math work on the computer, or are you having him also use the TT workbook? I think it's very important to be using the workbook so he's also doing math with paper and pencil. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 After reviewing the problems with him he missed he remembered how to do them ;) do you think if I just added in something like Khan academy for now that would be sufficient. I'm also making sure I pay closer attention during math time too but he still seems to be doing well with TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 After reviewing the problems with him he missed he remembered how to do them ;) do you think if I just added in something like Khan academy for now that would be sufficient. I'm also making sure I pay closer attention during math time too but he still seems to be doing well with TT. Khan Academy might be great but that is more computer time. Does he do work with paper and pencil, too? Or on a dry erase board so there is more physical connection to what he is doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 As gently as I can possibly say it - it may well be the curriculum. TT is often regarded as being 6 months to a year behind other more traditional math programs. That is not an issue - as long as your kids are learning and retaining the math, and you are OK with it. The ultimate goal is understanding and retention - and any pace and any curriculum that help you to reach that goal is a good thing. However, If annual testing results are important to your family (or for recording purposes) then you may want to consider some options. If TT is your pick, then you may want to work through the summer to get your student further ahead on the scope and sequence curve to get ready for the following year's testing. My guess is, if he "remembers" when prompted, he needs more practice. I have never used TT, but many laud it for not being "drill and kill". Some kids need the "drill and kill", though, even if they don't like it. A curriculum with more drill, or adding in another component of drill and practice might be just what he needs. Or, maybe a little more review before testing time. I also totally agree with the PP who mentioned using paper and pencil. It's a different function than clicking and moving on. That might also be part of the gap. But, your results were pretty clear. Yes, maybe he missed a bubble, but if you looked at it and reviewed with him, it looks like it's likely more. What's your Mom gut say? What do you think is the issue? Be really honest with yourself about where he is - and then you can start to make a plan. Not having instant retention isn't "behind" and doing poorly on a test is merely a chance for us as teachers and parents to evaluate, redirect, and refocus. It's a tool, not a judgement. Don't stress out. Deep breaths. It's going to be fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 After reviewing the problems with him he missed he remembered how to do them ;) That could mean it would be helpful to do a review a few days before testing. If he still doesn't do as well as expected after a review and test, more drill is likely needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence1978 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 As gently as I can possibly say it - it may well be the curriculum. TT is often regarded as being 6 months to a year behind other more traditional math programs. That is not an issue - as long as your kids are learning and retaining the math, and you are OK with it. The ultimate goal is understanding and retention - and any pace and any curriculum that help you to reach that goal is a good thing. However, If annual testing results are important to your family (or for recording purposes) then you may want to consider some options. If TT is your pick, then you may want to work through the summer to get your student further ahead on the scope and sequence curve to get ready for the following year's testing. My guess is, if he "remembers" when prompted, he needs more practice. I have never used TT, but many laud it for not being "drill and kill". Some kids need the "drill and kill", though, even if they don't like it. A curriculum with more drill, or adding in another component of drill and practice might be just what he needs. Or, maybe a little more review before testing time. I also totally agree with the PP who mentioned using paper and pencil. It's a different function than clicking and moving on. That might also be part of the gap. But, your results were pretty clear. Yes, maybe he missed a bubble, but if you looked at it and reviewed with him, it looks like it's likely more. What's your Mom gut say? What do you think is the issue? Be really honest with yourself about where he is - and then you can start to make a plan. Not having instant retention isn't "behind" and doing poorly on a test is merely a chance for us as teachers and parents to evaluate, redirect, and refocus. It's a tool, not a judgement. Don't stress out. Deep breaths. It's going to be fine! Completely agree with the bold. This describes my DD to a T. As much as we hate it, "drill and kill" is the only way that I can ensure retention on most subjects that we do. It's annoying, but it gets results. Also, never underestimate the power of writing something down. Our morning work here is quite pencil heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianna Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 So if I decided to switch what would you suggest? I agree more computer time isn't really the greatest. He really wanted to do life of Fred but I think that may need to be supplemental because he probably does need a lot more review :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondeviolin Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 IME with TT, they spiral back to the very beginning each year. That's good for some review, but it means topics that are later in the math sequence aren't revisited for a lot longer (like division). The new teaching ends up being much further in than typical curriculum. AND, it often doesn't introduce a whole lot of new each year. My 8yo is using TT 5, but I regularly cross out problems and give her problems that the TT sequence hasn't reached for review. I also make her do MM 4 sheets T and Th (which she detests). I think TT is nice and procedural for kids who thrive off it. Unfortunately, it is not much of a stretch for my 8yo (who is not mathy at all) to be working on the 5th level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventuresinHomeschooling Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't have any recommendations other than to say that my son is also someone who hates doing too much review but needs some drill. He would do LOF all day if I let him and remember some really cool things about math, but it wouldn't help him with his math facts. I think LOF can really only be a supplement at the early levels unless they have a strong math foundation. However, if you really like TT, perhaps you can work ahead with it and do some extra worksheets. I am not familiar, but I hear Math Mammoth has some great ones. But if you don't think TT is teaching the concepts well or if he is skating by, the curriculum may be the issue. I recently saw that TT gives you two tries on the answer. If you get it right the second time, they count it right on the score, but getting it right the second time really isn't getting it right. The scores may not be accurately reflecting his retention. You can look and see the number of tries for each answer though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 So if I decided to switch what would you suggest? I agree more computer time isn't really the greatest. He really wanted to do life of Fred but I think that may need to be supplemental because he probably does need a lot more review :) I think you're wise to consider LOF a supplement. I'd look at CLE. It's spiral, traditional, written to kids, and well regarded here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyhappypeople Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Was his low score in computation or concepts-problem solving? I wouldn't switch program unless you honestly feel that TT is not working for your son. Bouncing around math programs does way more harm than making a not-quite-perfect program work for you. I learned this the hard way :( Perhaps, before jumping ship, try adding in something like Evan Moor's Daily Math Practice and/or a word problems book (TT's word problems are weak). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solascriptura Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I would recommend a more traditional paper and pencil program such as Saxon or Horizons. Horizons, a spiral program, has worked really well for us. It's paper and pencil and the colorful pages help a bit. We also use the additional worksheets that are in the Answer key book. You know, I can't figure out why Horizons is not more popular with homeschoolers. My oldest and most of the other Horizon kids I know, have usually scored in the 95% or higher on the standardized tests. FWIW, i'm pretty old fashioned in my homeschooling methods. So if I decided to switch what would you suggest? I agree more computer time isn't really the greatest. He really wanted to do life of Fred but I think that may need to be supplemental because he probably does need a lot more review :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianna Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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